How are people going to deal with firearms? Thread mostly aimed at the melee people

[111]

This was my assumption about machinist guns. That they are cartridge based firearms. Not blackpower musketball firing things.

 

They look like them too, to be honest. and it would only make sense due to their ability to fire more than once in a while.

 

If the firearms are cartridge based, you could...sort of reasonably assume they would have rifled barrels. Maybe its a given, hard to say.

 

If thats the case, cartridges + rifling, you are looking at pretty pointed and lethal ammunition that is very accurate.

 

Thats mostly where my dilemma stems from of looking at armor and being like...mmmm don't think it'll hold. Anything shaped like a modern rifle round, even a wadcutter, with good lead or steel cored is going to be drilling holes in a lot of stuff. I also acknowledge that rounded breastplates that are "heavy" in their armor nature should absorb a few shots - but that armor would be "heavy" in nature and nowhere near light to be sure. If it were just steel. Maybe we will find wonder-alloys (very possible if not already doable now if your character is a skilled material specialist with metals and alloys) that will be light enough to alloy some serious mobility while fighting armored. Armor strong enough to get shot and not just be useless.

 

Steel is steel, and though heavy, can still stop rounds, even with modern guns. The russians issued steel breastplates to their shocktroopers in WW2, for example. Which could stop 9mm bullets at 10 meters, and bolt action rifles at 150.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel_Bib

 

The velocity of firearm rounds is by some factor a product of the length of their muzzles, and while the machinists appear to use rifled cartridge based weapons, their high caliber and relatively short barrels, imply something like pistol velocity.

 

Add that to the fact that this is a fantasy game, and there are stronger/lighter materials than steel, heavy plate would likely not be penetrated by it.

 

The intro video to 2.0 is actually a good example, the Warrior of Light took several rounds at medium range, which all ricocheted off his armor. It would likely take several shots to down someone in full plate, unless you get lucky. Each shot would either rip off parts of their armor, or deform any area that was hit. And as the armor loses its form and curve due to repeated impact, it becomes less able to deflect rounds.

 

I think people should RP firearms roughly similar to how they'd RP arrows, the only difference is that unlike an Arrow, a firearm tends to do damage to armor even if it doesn't penetrate. So while an archer might have to circle around for the perfect shot, the gun user can just keep blasting away until something gives.

[Erik Mynhier]

Without knowing the specific strength (strength to weight ratio) of the materials being used for armor and the projectile, the density of said materials, the velocity of the projectile, and the x factors (magic) of the environment, its all conjecture.

[111]

Without knowing the specific strength (strength to weight ratio) of the materials being used for armor and the projectile, the density of said materials, the velocity of the projectile, and the x factors (magic) of the environment, its all conjecture.

 

I think you misunderstand the point of this exercise, and my posts. It is not to say definitively how these things will play out. That of course, is silly, since this is an RP Fantasy would, and people are free to make their own decisions based on the Lore and their preferences

 

However, people who aren't sure how they want to treat guns, firearms, and armor, might find it useful to have some real world context, in order to help them RP.

[Marisa]

I would like to draw attention to Wikipedia's entry on the Arquebus, because it is likely the most similar weapon to what exists in Final Fantasy. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arquebus

 

As a low-velocity firearm, the arquebus was used against enemies who were often partially or fully protected by steel-plate armor. Plate armor worn upon the torso was standard in European combat from about 1400 until the middle of the 17th century. Good suits of plate would usually stop an arquebus ball at long range. It was a common practice to "proof" (test) armor by firing a pistol or arquebus at a new breastplate. The small dent would be circled by engraving to call attention to it. However, at close range, it was possible to pierce even heavy cavalry armor, heavily dependent on the power of the arquebus and the quality of the armor. This led to changes in armor usage, such as the three-quarter plate, and finally the retirement of plate armor from most types of infantry.

 

Basically this means that, while plate armor isn't great against firearms, it's definitely better than nothing. However, if we want to say FFXIV firearms are closer to muskets, then plate armor is completely useless. Keep in mind that muskets usually fired between .69 and .75 caliber balls. To put that in perspective, think about a .50 caliber rifle, often used as the 'ultimate weapon' in FPS games. Now think bigger. 

 

 

Carbon-fiber or not, that thing is going to punch a hole the size of a doorknob in you.

[Aduu Avagnar]

I would like to draw attention to Wikipedia's entry on the Arquebus, because it is likely the most similar weapon to what exists in Final Fantasy. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arquebus

 

As a low-velocity firearm, the arquebus was used against enemies who were often partially or fully protected by steel-plate armor. Plate armor worn upon the torso was standard in European combat from about 1400 until the middle of the 17th century. Good suits of plate would usually stop an arquebus ball at long range. It was a common practice to "proof" (test) armor by firing a pistol or arquebus at a new breastplate. The small dent would be circled by engraving to call attention to it. However, at close range, it was possible to pierce even heavy cavalry armor, heavily dependent on the power of the arquebus and the quality of the armor. This led to changes in armor usage, such as the three-quarter plate, and finally the retirement of plate armor from most types of infantry.

 

Basically this means that, while plate armor isn't great against firearms, it's definitely better than nothing. However, if we want to say FFXIV firearms are closer to muskets, then plate armor is completely useless. Keep in mind that muskets usually fired between .69 and .75 caliber balls. To put that in perspective, think about a .50 caliber rifle, often used as the 'ultimate weapon' in FPS games. Now think bigger. 

 

 

Carbon-fiber or not, that thing is going to punch a hole the size of a doorknob in you.

similar sorts of sizes to those shot by Merlwybs pistols then? (pistol averages tended to be between .50 and .70) to which Cobalt stood up to.

[TheLastCandle]

I think the most dangerous thing a non-aether using soldier clad in full plate could face would be a thaumaturge with a penchant for Thunder spells. Shocking!

[Erik Mynhier]

Without knowing the specific strength (strength to weight ratio) of the materials being used for armor and the projectile, the density of said materials, the velocity of the projectile, and the x factors (magic) of the environment, its all conjecture.

 

I think you misunderstand the point of this exercise, and my posts. It is not to say definitively how these things will play out. That of course, is silly, since this is an RP Fantasy would, and people are free to make their own decisions based on the Lore and their preferences

 

However, people who aren't sure how they want to treat guns, firearms, and armor, might find it useful to have some real world context, in order to help them RP.

 

Oh I did not misunderstand the topic, and I was not really commenting on your post or anyone elses. As you say...

 

"However, people who aren't sure how they want to treat guns, firearms, and armor, might find it useful to have some real world context, in order to help them RP."

 

As such I am adding the real life perspective of someone who has been military trained in the use of many fire arms, and has used them in live fire. Precision combat training for officers includes history and physics study in fire arms, reviewing in detail among other things the practical and historic cat and mouse game that is arms vs armor.

 

I simply offer that prespective to those wishing to understand the interaction from a rl point of view.

[111]

I would like to draw attention to Wikipedia's entry on the Arquebus, because it is likely the most similar weapon to what exists in Final Fantasy. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arquebus

 

As a low-velocity firearm, the arquebus was used against enemies who were often partially or fully protected by steel-plate armor. Plate armor worn upon the torso was standard in European combat from about 1400 until the middle of the 17th century. Good suits of plate would usually stop an arquebus ball at long range. It was a common practice to "proof" (test) armor by firing a pistol or arquebus at a new breastplate. The small dent would be circled by engraving to call attention to it. However, at close range, it was possible to pierce even heavy cavalry armor, heavily dependent on the power of the arquebus and the quality of the armor. This led to changes in armor usage, such as the three-quarter plate, and finally the retirement of plate armor from most types of infantry.

 

Basically this means that, while plate armor isn't great against firearms, it's definitely better than nothing. However, if we want to say FFXIV firearms are closer to muskets, then plate armor is completely useless. Keep in mind that muskets usually fired between .69 and .75 caliber balls. To put that in perspective, think about a .50 caliber rifle, often used as the 'ultimate weapon' in FPS games. Now think bigger. 

 

 

Carbon-fiber or not, that thing is going to punch a hole the size of a doorknob in you.

 

Except breastplates could stop rounds such as those...

 

The reason they werent used was because weight and expense. Steel breastplates were perfectly capable of stopping musketd as long as they were not at point blank range. You cannot really get your judgements of bullet physics from "modern fps"

[OttoVann]

Modern .50 calibers are lethal as fuck depending on the cartridge. Yeah .50 BMG fucks up modern lite-armor vehicles, or blows through concrete buildings - but the cartridge is fucking HUGE. It's also shooting a (usually) milled steel round, amongst other flavors .50 bmg comes in. Its got a massive amount of powder pushing that bullet to unreal amounts of force.

 

However even .50AE will obliterate shit coming out of a pistol, or that .50 smith and wesson has for their super revolvers - but .50 isnt just lethal because its .50. The cartridge behind and caliber is what makes it lethal.

[111]

Modern .50 calibers are lethal as fuck depending on the cartridge. Yeah .50 BMG fucks up modern lite-armor vehicles, or blows through concrete buildings - but the cartridge is fucking HUGE. It's also shooting a (usually) milled steel round, amongst other flavors .50 bmg comes in. Its got a massive amount of powder pushing that bullet to unreal amounts of force.

 

However even .50AE will obliterate shit coming out of a pistol, or that .50 smith and wesson has for their super revolvers - but .50 isnt just lethal because its .50. The cartridge behind and caliber is what makes it lethal.

 

Yep, just for example, a Brown Bess Musket has a muzzle velocity of 1000 fps (feet per second). That's a very optimal number by the way. Musketballs would often be too large or too small, powder charges could very, and barrels very quickly became fouled.

 

A 9mm pistol, for example can be around 1500 fps, plus it is a pointed, copper jacketed round. Even those could not go through the steel body armors of the day. Most modern 50 caliber sniper rifles can easily go over 3000! fps, and as Otto says, often have steel penetrating cores. They're a totally different beast.

[Magellan]

Feels like too much realism to me.

 

When I first started the game back in beta, almost immediately my question was; 'Wait, how does melee survive against magic users? I mean, they are basically taking a fireball to the face, and still walking away from it?'

 

It was then pointed out to me that in the Final Fantasy universe, this is quite common. See Squall getting pegged by Edea's Ice spell in FFVIII... or Squall getting stabbed by Siefer. Or Cloud getting run through by Sephiroth and surviving. Or Vincent shooting people and not killing them. Or Zack getting shot about a hundred times before dying.

 

People in Final Fantasy games.... they ain't like us. They're made of tougher stuff (in FFXIV thta would be aether) and are much harder to kill. Even if they take a bullet.

[Nako Vesh]

I think Nako's going to deal with firearms by getting shot a lot...

[Kurt S.]

Kurt, despite being a primarily melee fighter with his axe, might just design a rifle axe ala Crescent Rose(yanno Ruby's scythe in RWBY) to deal with the annoying spellcasters and archers.

 

Oh wait I can't combat RP worth a damn. 

 

Bottomline, he'd shoot them first before they shot him.

[Chris Ganale]

Kurt, despite being a primarily melee fighter with his axe, might just design a rifle axe ala Crescent Rose(yanno Ruby's scythe in RWBY) to deal with the annoying spellcasters and archers.

 

Oh wait I can't combat RP worth a damn. 

 

Bottomline, he'd shoot them first before they shot him.

 

Funny you should mention that. Chao's going to be developing Ember Celica for herself in the near future here.

[Aduu Avagnar]

I think Nako's going to deal with firearms by getting shot a lot...

My first thought was 'wait, what?'

 

then I remember that you exist

 

and Kurt, we can teach you its just normal rp, just more violent.

[Flynn Bladebreaker]

As a Free Paladin and Warrior in training, Flynn will react the same way he does with any weapon pointed at him. He'll be threatened, sure, but he's not gonna cry and beg on his knees just because someone has a gun (or gunbladed pulled out of their ass). He'll adapt and learn a workaround.

[Viola]

One does not simply kill a Primal with a single bullet to the face. ( '-')

[Aduu Avagnar]

One does not simply kill a Primal with a single bullet to the face. ( '-')

You're right, you systematically murder their worshipers and then murderise them, and then you destroy any reference of them so that they don't get summoned again.

[Kurt S.]

Kurt, despite being a primarily melee fighter with his axe, might just design a rifle axe ala Crescent Rose(yanno Ruby's scythe in RWBY) to deal with the annoying spellcasters and archers.

 

Oh wait I can't combat RP worth a damn. 

 

Bottomline, he'd shoot them first before they shot him.

 

Funny you should mention that. Chao's going to be developing Ember Celica for herself in the near future here.

 

I hope they introduce SAM so Kurt can try making something like Wilt and Blush (Adam's shotguntana) but functions more like a rifle than an explosive quickdraw katana ala Jetstream Sam's Muramasa. Anyway still ends up shooting the shooter or breaking their focus or catching them off guard by shooting back with a deceptively melee weapon. 

 

I think Nako's going to deal with firearms by getting shot a lot...

My first thought was 'wait, what?'

 

then I remember that you exist

 

and Kurt, we can teach you its just normal rp, just more violent.

 

 

You're gonna wipe the floor with my face aren't you?

[Aduu Avagnar]

Yes, yes I am

[Nako Vesh]

I think Nako's going to deal with firearms by getting shot a lot...

My first thought was 'wait, what?'

 

then I remember that you exist

 

and Kurt, we can teach you its just normal rp, just more violent.

 

Yup! :lol: It's the Nako of the Vesh type who is likely going to get shot.

[Leanne]

I dunno. I think I will deal with firearms the same way I ever dealt with arrows. Dodging it someway somehow if rolls or RP calls me to.

 

While realism is nice, if we were to apply the rules of physics, the only thing dragoons would need to do to murderize most humanoid beings is simply dash forward with their jump ability. They would skewer you so freaking hard before you even had the chance to say HOLY GUACAMOLE.

[shotgunbadger]

Yea this is still a fantasy game, I don't see any issue with treating bullets like arrows, melee types are trained/skilled enough to juke or block the shots. Obviously ideally they'd rather not get shot at all because that's not great for them, but I see no reason to call bs on a Paladin taking shots on their shield or whatever.

 

Right now my only characters are Zutoto, the mage who will react to guns with 'oooooh let me see that and take it apart and see how it works' and my future Au Ra who, since they'll be going Mechanist, will react to them with 'yea, give me that and let me shoot it at this jerk who's bothering me'.

[Steel Wolf]

Magic.

*snort-snort*

[Raelas]

Dealing with any type of offense be it melee, magic, arrows or firearms (Even a combination of the aforementioned) is really going to boil down to one question;

 

How capable is your character?

 

In the established lore of the game world we inhabit there are those that are capable of amazing feats. I like to use the Pugilist / Monk angle in these sort of examples. Both are famed for being quick, agile and hard hitting in terms of how they're portrayed when played through the skin of the WoL.

 

That said, he's the WoL and massively overpowered. The average RPer may be nowhere near that power level or skill level. Could a talented Pugilist / Monk like Hamon or the WoL dodge or deflect a bullet using aether? Sure! Could your considerably less powerful average RPer? Who knows!

 

Circumstances certainly play a part, of course. Warning, distance, muzzle flash , velocity of projectile and aim. The same really applies to anything, its all down to how capable you portray your character to be. As for my answer on how I'll deal with guns? Carefully. Most likely take the hit in a non vital spot then murder them as they're reloading... exactly how I would deal with arrows or magic if not able to avoid it.

 

None of my characters are superhuman... yet! They might be one day (One will be beginning his journey in to Monk-hood come Heavensward... he's going to get his ass kicked a lot ) but not for a VERY long time. I'm of the school of thought that adheres to slower, more realistic character progression rather than having abilities that make zero sense given a combat skillset and taking two weeks to master a weapon "just 'cause".