Ishgard's Tensions - Racism or Classism?

[Kage]

So, we know that there is discrimination in Ishgard's Society.

 

Is it more classism or is it racism?

 

Word of god mentioned tensions between Hyur and Elezen for many years, especially in specifics towards racial cross breeding between Hyur and Elezen.

 

We now know in 3.0 that Ishgard's High society is based on the perception that the four High Houses are the houses of those Heavensward who survived Nidhogg. Thus, the reason why Hyur are Lowborn is because the remaining (and I think all of them) were only Elezen.

 

Are the racial tensions and discrimination rooted in racism or in classism?

[111]

So, we know that there is discrimination in Ishgard's Society.

 

Is it more classism or is it racism?

 

Word of god mentioned tensions between Hyur and Elezen for many years, especially in specifics towards racial cross breeding between Hyur and Elezen.

 

We now know in 3.0 that Ishgard's High society is based on the perception that the four High Houses are the houses of those Heavensward who survived Nidhogg. Thus, the reason why Hyur are Lowborn is because the remaining (and I think all of them) were only Elezen.

 

Are the racial tensions and discrimination rooted in racism or in classism?

Trick question, racism as we know it is an extension of Class Warfare.

 

It's used by the upper classes to distract the lower classes.

 

"You might have it bad, but at least you're not black." Etc etc. It keeps the lower strata divided instead of united.

[Ashe]

Both? 

We know that Hyur and Elezen have their tensions (The Elezen thinking they are above the Hyur) and we know the "lowborns" are defecting because they are finding out that everyone is essentially equal as long as they have the thing...

 

Dislike for Hyurs may also stem from the war with Ala Mhigo? 

I think there's also tension between different types of Elezen but I am not sure...

I think there is a bit of both though because those Elezen, despite the classism with Hyur, are okay with murdering Xaela and rejecting Roe/Miqo'te/Lala from their society as well if they don't serve a purpose for advancement. 

 

I always found the MSQ as an Elezen was funny because there were Elezen who were blatantly racist against my Elezen and I'm like HE'S WILDWOOD WHY YOU HATING HE LOOKS EXACTLY LIKE YOU BRO!! They SEEM to get along with the Elezen in Gridania though (Wildwood, not necessarily Duskwight--this is unclear to me so I won't claim that I know. I am still convinced that one of the houses is Duskwight though 'cause Dezmael Darkhold is a cave and we all know Duskwights love their caves).

Anywho~ That's my two cents.

[Hammersmith]

So, we know that there is discrimination in Ishgard's Society.

 

Is it more classism or is it racism?

 

Word of god mentioned tensions between Hyur and Elezen for many years, especially in specifics towards racial cross breeding between Hyur and Elezen.

 

We now know in 3.0 that Ishgard's High society is based on the perception that the four High Houses are the houses of those Heavensward who survived Nidhogg. Thus, the reason why Hyur are Lowborn is because the remaining (and I think all of them) were only Elezen.

 

Are the racial tensions and discrimination rooted in racism or in classism?

 

The two trend towards being one and the same.

 

Those that have tend to be of a specific group, and to their best to keep a specific group in power.  You can see this all through history from the Mayflower families in the Northeast to the abuse of the Irish in the turn of the century, to the MASSIVE AND ENDMIC racial divide in America right now that's shown up in everything from subtle cultural highjacking and exploitation to creations of segregation of races by home loan denials.

 

Those that have, keep having, and will defend that structure.  Classism and racism are two tools used by the same people for the same end.  "We're rich.  Keep out."  There's lots of other tools involved in this kind of social fuckery, that Beef touches on.

 

Because by fuck does it keep them in power.

 

It's one of the reasons the MSQ is so dangerous to Ishgarde and why I was surprised we didn't get a Bolsheveck revolution after one of the Revelations.

 

I still think that could happen in some of the coming patches, if shit gets bad.

[Kage]

I'm confused. Are you saying that racism is like a subset of class warfare?

 

Because in the case of Hyur vs Elezen, word of god has mentioned that (as far as people of Eorzea or Elezen believe) Elezen came to Eorzea first and the Hyur came in after. I mean Hyur invaded the Elezen newly taken territory essentially so is that rooted in classism?

 

Edit: Part of my curiosity is still very much tied to the whole cross-racial breeding stuff. So it seems like an interest on what serves to drive that tension.

[Virella]

Don't know, Ishgardians were pretty happy to execute Au ra in mass numbers (See DK questline).

 

I'd say it is both.

[Kage]

Don't know, Ishgardians were pretty happy to execute Au ra in mass numbers (See DK questline).

 

I'd say it is both.

Cause they (incorrectly) looked like dragons, seems like a racial thing?

[111]

I'm confused. Are you saying that racism is like a subset of class warfare?

 

Because in the case of Hyur vs Elezen, word of god has mentioned that (as far as people of Eorzea or Elezen believe) Elezen came to Eorzea first and the Hyur came in after. I mean Hyur invaded the Elezen newly taken territory essentially so is that rooted in classism?

 

Racism is almost always a subset of Class Warfare. It's used like a weapon to keep the lower class from uniting. 

 

It's used as a threat to the people almost on the bottom, and it allows them to feel as if they have some control over an even more marginalized group of people.

 

For example, the fears over immigration in the USA are used to divert attention from existing issues with good jobs and unimployment. "Don't let those people come over to take our jobs" aka it puts people into a defensive mode, rather than allowing them to examine the fact that the system is already damaged.

 

There are some cases where Racism is unrelated (for example as propoganda in war) but In ishgard I think it's pretty clear it's part of the 'package' the Holy See uses to keep the lower class hammered down.

[FreelanceWizard]

Racism is almost always a subset of Class Warfare. It's used like a weapon to keep the lower class from uniting. 

 

It's used as a threat to the people almost on the bottom, and it allows them to feel as if they have some control over an even more marginalized group of people.

 

I'd agree that's often how it's used -- particularly by demagogues -- but I think it's also true that racism can engender classism. After all, when the wildwood elezen are at the top, and the top is only made up of them, it's easy to see the races of the lower classes as inherently "less." So, in this case, it's not strict propaganda being employed by those at the top; they actually believe what they're selling. Social grouping and groupthink are nasty things.

 

In the case of Ishgard, I think we see both. I think the elezen nobility honestly does feel that the other races are lesser; after all, if they were truly equals, they'd rise to the top. However, they also actively spread this perspective as a way to hold the poor down by aiming them at the "others."

[Kage]

Hurm, ok so is the racial cross breeding tension more "I hate you because you're half Hyur" or is "I hate you cause you're Lowborn"?

[V'aleera]

I think the elezen nobility honestly does feel that the other races are lesser; after all, if they were truly equals, they'd rise to the top.

While I certainly believe a heavy element of classism and racism are at play in Ishgard, I'm not sure this specific rationale finds much use there. While the highest echelons of power are reserved for highborn Elezen alone, there are many examples of Ishgardian culture exhibiting very meritocratic leanings.

 

Examples include the immense jump in social and professional strata for killing a dragon (which can result in not only assignment to the Order of the Knights Dragoon, but alternatively the Temple Knights) and the presence of minority races and lowborn finding acceptance and prominence via the application of exceptional skill (the MCH guy, the family of Costa Del Sol's chef, Aymeric, Lucia).

[Ashe]

Hurm, ok so is the racial cross breeding tension more "I hate you because you're half Hyur" or is "I hate you cause you're Lowborn"?

Well, think of it this way:

 

With Hilda everyone was saying "if only it wasn't with a Hyur." So if it was a lowborn Elezen it would have been better?

 

[Eliane Dufresne]

Examples include the immense jump in social and professional strata for killing a dragon (which can result in not only assignment to the Order of the Knights Dragoon, but alternatively the Temple Knights) and the presence of minority races and lowborn finding acceptance and prominence via the application of exceptional skill (the MCH guy, the family of Costa Del Sol's chef, Aymeric, Lucia).

 

Pretty much this. Ishgard is a weird dichotomy of tradition and meritocracy. And if we assume the discussion that went on in an earlier thread is even half-correct, Duskwights may have actively moved up to Ishgard and even began intermarrying there precisely because it was a better place for them than Gridania and/or The Shroud. It's a sad day when Ishgard is a more welcoming place than Gridania.

 

As frosty as Ishgard has been with outsiders, it's still a martial nation with a need for every hand it can get, and I think most people there recognize and value hard work and skill when they see it. In the end that trumps birth -- the Heavens' Ward being a prime example (although...did we ever determine if there were Hyur in the Ward or not?). The meritocracy system is obviously working better in theory than in practice right now and a lot of people are slipping through the cracks, but it nevertheless is a prime example of how fluid things in Ishgard can actually be.

 

The racism and classim is definitely there, though. The gods made Elezen tall so that they could look down their noses at people, right?

[Kage]

In the end that trumps birth -- the Heavens' Ward being a prime example (although...did we ever determine if there were Hyur in the Ward or not?).

 

Someone somewhere, on tumblr, somehow, made a post that detailed all of the heavensward cast.

 

http://kuzunoharaidouxiv.tumblr.com/post/128977580579/ser-zephirin-ser-vellguine-ser-charibert-ser

 

This might be correct. Think they're all at least part Elezen.

[plumsamurai]

There also seems to be a strong sense of purism in Ishgard that blankets over every aspect of Ishgardian life. This leads to things like hating crossbreeds between elezen and hyur, attempts to suppress and control the lower class and lowborn (they are not pure and born of the high houses), and pretty much everything else. I first started noticing this in the BTN questline, then went back to look at other quests and there is definitely a sense of purity.

 

In the BTN storyline, you've been helping Basyle try to grow food in the Sea of Clouds, which is pretty inhospitable for plant life. So you end up helping him crossbreed seeds. He nearly gets sent to the Tribunal for crossbreeding seeds, growing foreign crops on Ishgardian soil, tainting all the crops with their impurity. Poor Basyle nearly gets killed over freaking impure seeds. Ishgard values its purity over everything else.

 

I think an important thing to note, at least in regards to hyur vs elezen is that hyur were just starting to integrate into Eorzean society at nearly the same time that Haldrath and all of them encountered Nidhogg

 

• 
  ~572 ---
  
• Hyur begin to migrate to Eorzea in three great migratory waves.
  
• Founding fathers of Ishgard encounter Nidhogg. Haldrath takes up his slain sire's lancer and thrusts it into Nidhogg's eye, the first Dragoon is born.
   
  

 

Midlanders are pretty good at meshing with society, giving up their own roots to take up the traditions of the land they call home. MSQ specifically states that Ishgardians were only elezen at the time, leading us to believe that hyur integrated at a later date. When exactly, who knows.

 

Now if you look at the npcs, most of the nobles are elezen, but you do come across a few hyur ladies. There's one in particular outside of the Astrologicum chatting with an Elezen lady. She also interestingly enough has an elezen manservant. Your contact in the WVR questline is also a hyur lady (who falls in love with a lowborn. I don't know the end of the story yet, but I doubt this will end well).

 

Hyur definitely are not members of the high houses, but there are definitely a handful of noble houses in the city that are hyurian, midlanders specifically.

 

I got carried away, I think, but I'd say that both racism and classism are pretty prevalent in Ishgard, but personally, I think the foundation is in purism and keeping Ishgard as pure as possible.

[-no longer matters-]

It feels like both TBH, there's Hyur aren't held in super high regard and a Elezen mating with a Hyur is considered a Nono. Classism, is the more prevalent issue, but Racism is def there.