Monks of Othard?

[Victarion]

Hey folks!

 

I play a character who was born and raised in Othard, a Xaela, even. And I was wondering if any of had ideas or any lore references that talk about monks from Othard. How they obtain their techniques, how they differ from monks of Eorzea, if they even exist, etc.

 

As it stands, My character is a Kha, and his tribe/clan has a LOT of interaction with Non-Xaela and non-Auri cultures. It stands to reason that members would have some interaction with people versed in Monk and Pugilist techniques, and brought them back to the tribe to integrate. It is my personal history that Josuke's parents and grandparents did just that, and passed their acquired and evolved skill/knowledge down to him.

 

So what are your thoughts on Monks that originate in Othard. Do you think they would only come from Eorzean refugees from Ala Mhigo? Or something older, maybe travelers from Ala Mhigo or from other places? Or perhaps the Xaela developed these Martial techniques on their own?

 

I'd love to hear from you!:cactuar::cactuar:

[OttoVann]

Monks are an Ala Mhigo thing, exclusively really. Right? Maybe I'm not up to date on the lore as I should be.

 

Doesn't mean one cant learn the Monk ways once they come to say, Ul'Dah and find someone to show them.

[Victarion]

Wouldn't it be possible for those monks to travel, though?

 

Or perhaps the fighters that are similar to monk in style are not called 'Monks' in Othard...hmmm...

[Smagon]

I would go as far as to say that they don't even have had to be taught by anyone unless you specifically want it that way. Unless you intend on copying the mechanics of monk down to the skill names, you could simply say that his parents/grandparents developed a similar technique on their own and taught it to him. Believe me, there are plenty of more off the wall explanations for skills and powers in the roleplay community.

 

That said, I have never leveled monk and have not seen any of the cut scenes from the quests so I do not know if there is anything preventing someone from copying or developing similar techniques on their own. All I know is that it isn't an absolute no go like white mage is.

[Virella]

Being a Monk or Fist of Rhalgr is not a fighting style, it is a lifestyle. They are warpriests, not just regular fighters with a fancy style of kicking people around.

 

An ordinary fist fighter? Yeah sure. Everyone can be that. Fists/Monks are a product of the constant war the Highlander clans back in Gyr Abania had going on. They are bunch of religious zealots.

 

Ala Mhigans are shown off to have a distaste for outsiders if you do the Little Ala Mhigo quests. Stuck in their old ways, wary of a lot of things. I'd simply can't see a Fist, especially back in Ala Mhigo going "Welp lets train this outsider who never heard of the Twelve, Rhalgr, praises other Gods, looks like a voidsent, and isn't one of ours". Racism and prejudices be real in Eorzea. (However a non Highlander Monk, but still an Ala Mhigan? Oh yes, that is very much possible!)

 

There is however Wildaderp and his Monk training business going on now in Mor Dhona, but that is a recent thing. And even that I take with a grain of salt on how successful that is on a short term. Excluding the WoL, becoming a Monk isn't an overnight deal.

 

Surely maybe some odd same alike type of thing could have happened in some part in Othard. Surely some lost Monk could have ended up wandering into Othard and teaching some au ra. But would it make for a good story, or would you end up as a special exceptions? As I said, it is a way of living, not of fighting.

 

It be like an Othardian Dragoon. It wouldn't make sense. Fists, Dragoons (and hells even Astrologians) are a very specific city-state thing. There are loopholes to make it work, but eh. It doesn't make for a convincing character to me.

 

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/39515-Want-Lore-History-Here-you-go!-%28Possible-Spoilers%29

 

^ This has actually some lore for you on Monks. I can link more, but I'm sort of stuck in roleplay currently.

[Yssen]

The Fists of Rhalgr are exclusive to Ala Mhigo, but that does not necessarily mean that being a Monk is exclusive to Ala Mhigo. Monk bro is even teaching people Monk stuff in Revenant's Toll. There is a whole sect of the Fists that had been teaching people outside of Ala Mhigo before that. The Fists are simply the only school we know to have been wide spread and influential.

 

This all depends on your definition of a Monk. The Fists of Rhalgr are the only school we know of, but they don't necessarily have a lock on the idea of aether wielding martial arts or martial bent spirituality. Not a huge leap of logic to assume the Garleans have their own Monk school now, they snagged their own Ninjee types after all. They have certainly been occupying Ala Mhigo long enough.

 

Certainly possible to generate a different school of Monk-ness to suit the purposes of the story you are try to tell. I would advise against anything large, grand, or well known though. Smaller, clannish based stuff can serve just as well.

[Victarion]

Being a Monk or Fist of Rhalgr is not a fighting style, it is a lifestyle. They are warpriests, not just regular fighters with a fancy style of kicking people around.

 

An ordinary fist fighter? Yeah sure. Everyone can be that. Fists/Monks are a product of the constant war the Highlander clans back in Gyr Abania had going on. They are bunch of religious zealots.

 

Ala Mhigans are shown off to have a distaste for outsiders if you do the Little Ala Mhigo quests. Stuck in their old ways, wary of a lot of things. I'd simply can't see a Fist, especially back in Ala Mhigo going "Welp lets train this outsider who never heard of the Twelve, Rhalgr, praises other Gods, looks like a voidsent, and isn't one of ours". Racism and prejudices be real in Eorzea. (However a non Highlander Monk, but still an Ala Mhigan? Oh yes, that is very much possible!)

 

There is however Wildaderp and his Monk training business going on now in Mor Dhona, but that is a recent thing. And even that I take with a grain of salt on how successful that is on a short term. Excluding the WoL, becoming a Monk isn't an overnight deal.

 

Surely maybe some odd same alike type of thing could have happened in some part in Othard. Surely some lost Monk could have ended up wandering into Othard and teaching some au ra. But would it make for a good story, or would you end up as a special exceptions? As I said, it is a way of living, not of fighting.

 

It be like an Othardian Dragoon. It wouldn't make sense. Fists, Dragoons (and hells even Astrologians) are a very specific city-state thing. There are loopholes to make it work, but eh. It doesn't make for a convincing character to me.

 

So wait..All monks are/were Fists of Rhalgr or taught by them? I recall reading that there are also non-Fist monks even in Ala Mhigo. Are there not others that are similar but not in that group?

[Victarion]

The Fists of Rhalgr are exclusive to Ala Mhigo, but that does not necessarily mean that being a Monk is exclusive to Ala Mhigo. Monk bro is even teaching people Monk stuff in Revenant's Toll. There is a whole sect of the Fists that had been teaching people outside of Ala Mhigo before that. The Fists are simply the only school we know to have been wide spread and influential.

 

This all depends on your definition of a Monk. The Fists of Rhalgr are the only school we know of, but they don't necessarily have a lock on the idea of aether wielding martial arts or martial bent spirituality. Not a huge leap of logic to assume the Garleans have their own Monk school now, they snagged their own Ninjee types after all. They have certainly been occupying Ala Mhigo long enough.

 

Certainly possible to generate a different school of Monk-ness to suit the purposes of the story you are try to tell. I would advise against anything large, grand, or well known though. Smaller, clannish based stuff can serve just as well.

Yes this is what I was thinking of. Nothing like this huge school or anything. Just something his family taught him, as they learned from others who were in Othard, be they travelers or not, and would thus find their own techniques.

[Virella]

Being a Monk or Fist of Rhalgr is not a fighting style, it is a lifestyle. They are warpriests, not just regular fighters with a fancy style of kicking people around.

 

An ordinary fist fighter? Yeah sure. Everyone can be that. Fists/Monks are a product of the constant war the Highlander clans back in Gyr Abania had going on. They are bunch of religious zealots.

 

Ala Mhigans are shown off to have a distaste for outsiders if you do the Little Ala Mhigo quests. Stuck in their old ways, wary of a lot of things. I'd simply can't see a Fist, especially back in Ala Mhigo going "Welp lets train this outsider who never heard of the Twelve, Rhalgr, praises other Gods, looks like a voidsent, and isn't one of ours". Racism and prejudices be real in Eorzea. (However a non Highlander Monk, but still an Ala Mhigan? Oh yes, that is very much possible!)

 

There is however Wildaderp and his Monk training business going on now in Mor Dhona, but that is a recent thing. And even that I take with a grain of salt on how successful that is on a short term. Excluding the WoL, becoming a Monk isn't an overnight deal.

 

Surely maybe some odd same alike type of thing could have happened in some part in Othard. Surely some lost Monk could have ended up wandering into Othard and teaching some au ra. But would it make for a good story, or would you end up as a special exceptions? As I said, it is a way of living, not of fighting.

 

It be like an Othardian Dragoon. It wouldn't make sense. Fists, Dragoons (and hells even Astrologians) are a very specific city-state thing. There are loopholes to make it work, but eh. It doesn't make for a convincing character to me.

 

So wait..All monks are/were Fists of Rhalgr or taught by them? I recall reading that there are also non-Fist monks even in Ala Mhigo. Are there not others that are similar but not in that group?

Monk = Fist. Just another word for them.

 

@Yssen And no, Garleans wouldn't have Fists, simply from the fact the Garleans /hate/ the Twelve, or any God, worship. Fists are build on the foundation of destroying things in the name of... the Destroyer. And the Mad King purged nearly all Monks on top of that. And ruined their temples. Made their knowledge be a near lost thing. Most of their teachings and scriptures got lost with the purge of the Fists. Even in the 50-60 Monk quests the two NPCs have issues finding anything to read up about some Monk lore, seeming there is so little left due to the Mad Kings nonsense.

[Victarion]

Being a Monk or Fist of Rhalgr is not a fighting style, it is a lifestyle. They are warpriests, not just regular fighters with a fancy style of kicking people around.

 

An ordinary fist fighter? Yeah sure. Everyone can be that. Fists/Monks are a product of the constant war the Highlander clans back in Gyr Abania had going on. They are bunch of religious zealots.

 

Ala Mhigans are shown off to have a distaste for outsiders if you do the Little Ala Mhigo quests. Stuck in their old ways, wary of a lot of things. I'd simply can't see a Fist, especially back in Ala Mhigo going "Welp lets train this outsider who never heard of the Twelve, Rhalgr, praises other Gods, looks like a voidsent, and isn't one of ours". Racism and prejudices be real in Eorzea. (However a non Highlander Monk, but still an Ala Mhigan? Oh yes, that is very much possible!)

 

There is however Wildaderp and his Monk training business going on now in Mor Dhona, but that is a recent thing. And even that I take with a grain of salt on how successful that is on a short term. Excluding the WoL, becoming a Monk isn't an overnight deal.

 

Surely maybe some odd same alike type of thing could have happened in some part in Othard. Surely some lost Monk could have ended up wandering into Othard and teaching some au ra. But would it make for a good story, or would you end up as a special exceptions? As I said, it is a way of living, not of fighting.

 

It be like an Othardian Dragoon. It wouldn't make sense. Fists, Dragoons (and hells even Astrologians) are a very specific city-state thing. There are loopholes to make it work, but eh. It doesn't make for a convincing character to me.

 

So wait..All monks are/were Fists of Rhalgr or taught by them? I recall reading that there are also non-Fist monks even in Ala Mhigo. Are there not others that are similar but not in that group?

Monk = Fist. Just another word for them.

 

And no, Garleans wouldn't have Fists, simply from the fact the Garleans /hate/ Twelve, or any God, worship. Fists are build on the foundation of destroying things in the name of... the Destroyer. And the Mad King purged nearly all Monks on top of that. And ruined their temples. Made their knowledge be a near lost thing. Even in the 50-60 Monk quests the two NPCs have issues finding anything to read up about some Monk lore, seeming there is so little left due to the Mad Kings nonsense.

 

 

Well, Like I was mentioning...Opening chakras, is that a purely a thing only A Fist of Rhalgr was capable of? Could not other fighters find similar paths to opening or even using Chakra, with different fighting techniques?

[Yssen]

Being a Monk or Fist of Rhalgr is not a fighting style, it is a lifestyle. They are warpriests, not just regular fighters with a fancy style of kicking people around.

 

An ordinary fist fighter? Yeah sure. Everyone can be that. Fists/Monks are a product of the constant war the Highlander clans back in Gyr Abania had going on. They are bunch of religious zealots.

 

Ala Mhigans are shown off to have a distaste for outsiders if you do the Little Ala Mhigo quests. Stuck in their old ways, wary of a lot of things. I'd simply can't see a Fist, especially back in Ala Mhigo going "Welp lets train this outsider who never heard of the Twelve, Rhalgr, praises other Gods, looks like a voidsent, and isn't one of ours". Racism and prejudices be real in Eorzea. (However a non Highlander Monk, but still an Ala Mhigan? Oh yes, that is very much possible!)

 

There is however Wildaderp and his Monk training business going on now in Mor Dhona, but that is a recent thing. And even that I take with a grain of salt on how successful that is on a short term. Excluding the WoL, becoming a Monk isn't an overnight deal.

 

Surely maybe some odd same alike type of thing could have happened in some part in Othard. Surely some lost Monk could have ended up wandering into Othard and teaching some au ra. But would it make for a good story, or would you end up as a special exceptions? As I said, it is a way of living, not of fighting.

 

It be like an Othardian Dragoon. It wouldn't make sense. Fists, Dragoons (and hells even Astrologians) are a very specific city-state thing. There are loopholes to make it work, but eh. It doesn't make for a convincing character to me.

 

So wait..All monks are/were Fists of Rhalgr or taught by them? I recall reading that there are also non-Fist monks even in Ala Mhigo. Are there not others that are similar but not in that group?

Monk = Fist. Just another word for them.

 

And no, Garleans wouldn't have Fists, simply from the fact the Garleans /hate/ Twelve, or any God, worship. Fists are build on the foundation of destroying things in the name of... the Destroyer. And the Mad King purged nearly all Monks on top of that. And ruined their temples. Made their knowledge be a near lost thing. Even in the 50-60 Monk quests the two NPCs have issues finding anything to read up about some Monk lore, seeming there is so little left due to the Mad Kings nonsense.

And Ninjutsu was a sacred secret to be used in the defense of one's village or superior by channeling the will of local elemental spirits. Did not stop the Garleans from snagging it, and adapting it whole cloth for their own uses. They won't have Fists of Rhalgr, no. They will have Fists of the Empire. Fists against heresy. 

As I said, the Fists of Rhalgr do not have a lock down on spiritual based martial arts, or martial bent spirituality. Ask Ishgard, or the Empire. Nor do they have a lock on channeling aether using the body. It all depends on your definition of Monk. Monk the Job is someone trained in the style and way of the Fists. Monk the concept of a warrior who improves body and spirit in tandem, somewhat more universal.

 

Also, to speak to Josuke's question, Chakra is just another name for Aether. Monk bro and Scientist Bud spell this out specifically in the pre-50 Monk quests.

[Virella]

Being a Monk or Fist of Rhalgr is not a fighting style, it is a lifestyle. They are warpriests, not just regular fighters with a fancy style of kicking people around.

 

An ordinary fist fighter? Yeah sure. Everyone can be that. Fists/Monks are a product of the constant war the Highlander clans back in Gyr Abania had going on. They are bunch of religious zealots.

 

Ala Mhigans are shown off to have a distaste for outsiders if you do the Little Ala Mhigo quests. Stuck in their old ways, wary of a lot of things. I'd simply can't see a Fist, especially back in Ala Mhigo going "Welp lets train this outsider who never heard of the Twelve, Rhalgr, praises other Gods, looks like a voidsent, and isn't one of ours". Racism and prejudices be real in Eorzea. (However a non Highlander Monk, but still an Ala Mhigan? Oh yes, that is very much possible!)

 

There is however Wildaderp and his Monk training business going on now in Mor Dhona, but that is a recent thing. And even that I take with a grain of salt on how successful that is on a short term. Excluding the WoL, becoming a Monk isn't an overnight deal.

 

Surely maybe some odd same alike type of thing could have happened in some part in Othard. Surely some lost Monk could have ended up wandering into Othard and teaching some au ra. But would it make for a good story, or would you end up as a special exceptions? As I said, it is a way of living, not of fighting.

 

It be like an Othardian Dragoon. It wouldn't make sense. Fists, Dragoons (and hells even Astrologians) are a very specific city-state thing. There are loopholes to make it work, but eh. It doesn't make for a convincing character to me.

 

So wait..All monks are/were Fists of Rhalgr or taught by them? I recall reading that there are also non-Fist monks even in Ala Mhigo. Are there not others that are similar but not in that group?

Monk = Fist. Just another word for them.

 

And no, Garleans wouldn't have Fists, simply from the fact the Garleans /hate/ Twelve, or any God, worship. Fists are build on the foundation of destroying things in the name of... the Destroyer. And the Mad King purged nearly all Monks on top of that. And ruined their temples. Made their knowledge be a near lost thing. Even in the 50-60 Monk quests the two NPCs have issues finding anything to read up about some Monk lore, seeming there is so little left due to the Mad Kings nonsense.

 

 

Well, Like I was mentioning...Opening chakras, is that a purely a thing only A Fist of Rhalgr was capable of? Could not other fighters find similar paths to opening or even using Chakra, with different fighting techniques?

The Monk quests do show off that people can open it without being Fists. However, it only seemed to have happened to the WoL so far. No other NPC has shown off to suddenly unlock their first chakra. The rest are all being trained by Monks, or are Monks already.

 

But I'd highly suggest not going down that route, seeming it is a Fist of Rhalgr thing. They have a whole philosophy surrounding it. Hells, they even have TRADITIONS around it. For example, it used to be a tradition that fully unlocked sect Monks would go duel another fully (and opposite) sect Monk opened to the death in a honourable fight.

 

I... It would be just as odd as saying an Limsa pirate very randomly one day, on his own how, figured out to do Mudras, while it is a thing originating from Othard.

 

@Yssen once more.

 

Temple Purge. Mad King. Monks gone poof. Monks be very rare. Knowledge Lost. Scriptures and scrolls gone.

 

It is a thing only very few know. Ninjas weren't purged by their OWN people before the Garleans came.

[Yssen]

Being a Monk or Fist of Rhalgr is not a fighting style, it is a lifestyle. They are warpriests, not just regular fighters with a fancy style of kicking people around.

 

An ordinary fist fighter? Yeah sure. Everyone can be that. Fists/Monks are a product of the constant war the Highlander clans back in Gyr Abania had going on. They are bunch of religious zealots.

 

Ala Mhigans are shown off to have a distaste for outsiders if you do the Little Ala Mhigo quests. Stuck in their old ways, wary of a lot of things. I'd simply can't see a Fist, especially back in Ala Mhigo going "Welp lets train this outsider who never heard of the Twelve, Rhalgr, praises other Gods, looks like a voidsent, and isn't one of ours". Racism and prejudices be real in Eorzea. (However a non Highlander Monk, but still an Ala Mhigan? Oh yes, that is very much possible!)

 

There is however Wildaderp and his Monk training business going on now in Mor Dhona, but that is a recent thing. And even that I take with a grain of salt on how successful that is on a short term. Excluding the WoL, becoming a Monk isn't an overnight deal.

 

Surely maybe some odd same alike type of thing could have happened in some part in Othard. Surely some lost Monk could have ended up wandering into Othard and teaching some au ra. But would it make for a good story, or would you end up as a special exceptions? As I said, it is a way of living, not of fighting.

 

It be like an Othardian Dragoon. It wouldn't make sense. Fists, Dragoons (and hells even Astrologians) are a very specific city-state thing. There are loopholes to make it work, but eh. It doesn't make for a convincing character to me.

 

So wait..All monks are/were Fists of Rhalgr or taught by them? I recall reading that there are also non-Fist monks even in Ala Mhigo. Are there not others that are similar but not in that group?

Monk = Fist. Just another word for them.

 

And no, Garleans wouldn't have Fists, simply from the fact the Garleans /hate/ Twelve, or any God, worship. Fists are build on the foundation of destroying things in the name of... the Destroyer. And the Mad King purged nearly all Monks on top of that. And ruined their temples. Made their knowledge be a near lost thing. Even in the 50-60 Monk quests the two NPCs have issues finding anything to read up about some Monk lore, seeming there is so little left due to the Mad Kings nonsense.

 

 

Well, Like I was mentioning...Opening chakras, is that a purely a thing only A Fist of Rhalgr was capable of? Could not other fighters find similar paths to opening or even using Chakra, with different fighting techniques?

The Monk quests do show off that people can open it without being Fists. However, it only seemed to have happened to the WoL so far. No other NPC has shown off to suddenly unlock their first chakra. The rest are all being trained by Monks, or are Monks already.

 

But I'd highly suggest not going down that route, seeming it is a Fist of Rhalgr thing. They have a whole philosophy surrounding it. Hells, they even have TRADITIONS around it. For example, it used to be a tradition that fully unlocked sect Monks would go duel another fully (and opposite) sect Monk opened to the death in a honourable fight.

 

I... It would be just as odd as saying an Limsa pirate very randomly one day, on his own how, figured out to do Mudras, while it is a thing originating from Othard.

 

@Yssen once more.

 

Temple Purge. Mad King. Monks gone poof. Monks be very rare. Knowledge Lost. Scriptures and scrolls gone.

 

It is a thing only very few know. Ninjas weren't purged by their OWN people before the Garleans came.

Save for the Dark Chakra sect which was never purged because they left before it happened. The stuff you have linked and are citing does not seem to take into account any of the post 60 MNK bits.

[Victarion]

Mm...I think maybe you're misunderstanding what I'm saying.

 

I... It would be just as odd as saying an Limsa pirate very randomly one day, on his own how, figured out to do Mudras, while it is a thing originating from Othard.

 

You keep saying things like this and I can't help but feel it's a little condescending. That isn't what I'm saying.

 

I'm not trying to be a monk of ala mhigo, or a Fist or anything like that. I'm actually just asking what people's thoughts are RE: Othard and Monks, or more accurately, Martial Artists.

 

Maybe I am making the mistake in using the word "Monk" for what i'm describing. I mean a similar martial fighter, not necessarily a Monk. But Monk is all I have in game speak to describe what I'm speaking of.

 

Also, Chakra is just the energy used by monks and people of that skill right? Opening Chakra gates is one thing, but simply using it is a thing all Monk do, be they Fist or not. It's the Aether of the body being used to create power.

[Virella]

 

So wait..All monks are/were Fists of Rhalgr or taught by them? I recall reading that there are also non-Fist monks even in Ala Mhigo. Are there not others that are similar but not in that group?

Monk = Fist. Just another word for them.

 

And no, Garleans wouldn't have Fists, simply from the fact the Garleans /hate/ Twelve, or any God, worship. Fists are build on the foundation of destroying things in the name of... the Destroyer. And the Mad King purged nearly all Monks on top of that. And ruined their temples. Made their knowledge be a near lost thing. Even in the 50-60 Monk quests the two NPCs have issues finding anything to read up about some Monk lore, seeming there is so little left due to the Mad Kings nonsense.

 

 

Well, Like I was mentioning...Opening chakras, is that a purely a thing only A Fist of Rhalgr was capable of? Could not other fighters find similar paths to opening or even using Chakra, with different fighting techniques?

The Monk quests do show off that people can open it without being Fists. However, it only seemed to have happened to the WoL so far. No other NPC has shown off to suddenly unlock their first chakra. The rest are all being trained by Monks, or are Monks already.

 

But I'd highly suggest not going down that route, seeming it is a Fist of Rhalgr thing. They have a whole philosophy surrounding it. Hells, they even have TRADITIONS around it. For example, it used to be a tradition that fully unlocked sect Monks would go duel another fully (and opposite) sect Monk opened to the death in a honourable fight.

 

I... It would be just as odd as saying an Limsa pirate very randomly one day, on his own how, figured out to do Mudras, while it is a thing originating from Othard.

 

@Yssen once more.

 

Temple Purge. Mad King. Monks gone poof. Monks be very rare. Knowledge Lost. Scriptures and scrolls gone.

 

It is a thing only very few know. Ninjas weren't purged by their OWN people before the Garleans came.

Save for the Dark Chakra sect which was never purged because they left before it happened.

Shadow*

 

And they were hidden into obscurity. They were banished from the Fists of Rhalgr.

 

http://i.imgur.com/mmDmmS6.png

 

http://i.imgur.com/VtmDsrP.png

 

They weren't running around in massive numbers, flaunting their shit off. If anything, they were hidden away somewhere else after the Light Sect fucked them over.

 

And the pact set with the Monks and royality? It probably happened about 120 years ago after the Autmn War. Unless they are speaking about the King of Ruin. But this is my best guess.

 

 

Gylbarde's victory brought him ever greater accolades from his country, and as a result both he and the Fist of Rhalgr came to wield considerable political power.

 

 

Through affiliation with the Ala Mhigan royal family, the Fist of Rhalgr was incorporated into the nation's standing army. This not only granted the monks a great deal of power, but furnished them with all of the rights accorded protectors of the citizenry. And their political influence was still growing...

 

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/39515-Want-Lore-History-Here-you-go!-%28Possible-Spoilers%29

 

If the Ala Mhigan scholar, and one of the remaining Light sect Monks can't find shit on the Shadow Sect Monks basically, then well. I come to the conclusion the Garleans probably didn't do it either. And Fists, Monks, or however you want to call them just don't work without the religious nonsense. It is what they are based of. Religion is the very central thing in their very being. Garleans don't allow that.

 

Surely aether infused fighter, fine, that can happen. But it wouldn't be Monks or Fists or whatever you want to call them, as their knowledge is basically near completely lost.

 

 

And if opening chakras was such a normal, everyday occurrence, why don't we see Joe the Farmer running around with flame fists and throwing hadoukens around? WoL is a special snowflake. Keep that in mind. Rest seems to be all trained by Monks, or are Monks who are capable of unlocking them.

[Victarion]

Surely aether infused fighter, fine, that can happen. But it wouldn't be Monks or Fists, as their knowledge is basically near completely lost.

 

Okay THAT makes more sense.

 

 

Yes,im sorry, i was using Monk to describe an Aether Infused Fighter. 

 

 

Okay. Now I see. This is much more understandable.

 

 

And if opening chakras was such a normal, everyday occurrence, why don't we see Joe the Farmer running around with flame fists and throwing hadoukens around? WoL is a special snowflake. Keep that in mind. Rest seems to be all trained by Monks, or are Monks who are capable of unlocking them.

 

 

Didn't say it was a normal, every day occurrence. Just that USING CHAKRA(not opening chakra gates) could be possible outside of the Fist, by another aether infused person/fighter, hm?

[Yssen]

Surely aether infused fighter, fine, that can happen. But it wouldn't be Monks or Fists, as their knowledge is basically near completely lost.

 

Okay THAT makes more sense.

 

 

Yes,im sorry, i was using Monk to describe an Aether Infused Fighter. 

 

 

Okay. Now I see. This is much more understandable.

 

 

And if opening chakras was such a normal, everyday occurrence, why don't we see Joe the Farmer running around with flame fists and throwing hadoukens around? WoL is a special snowflake. Keep that in mind. Rest seems to be all trained by Monks, or are Monks who are capable of unlocking them.

 

 

Didn't say it was a normal, every day occurrence.  Just that USING CHAKRA(not opening chakra gates) could be possible outside of the Fist, by another aether infused person/fighter, hm?

 

You are correct on this last part. From what we have seen displayed in CSes and lore bits every martially inclined Job or Class has some method of channeling aether. Opening chakras is is just a means to and end. You could call it fighting resolve, spiritual pressure, or chocolate dodo waves. The methods may differ, but at the stripped down core it is all the same.

[Edric W.]

Just to get this out of the way, a 'chakra' isn't actually a physical thing that is unlocked, it's simply a term used when someone takes in a large concentration of aether lingering in the world (left there when people die, especially in violent/dramatic ways or in large numbers) and increases their own personal aether capacity. To handle this increase, the recipient's body and mind must be trained in very specific, very strenuous ways or they simply won't be able to 'unlock' that 'chakra'. To actually control the 'chakras' once they're unlocked, that's where the Monk/Fists of Rhalgr training comes in, as a lot of training and concentration is needed to manipulate one's internal aether, even more the case once that aether has increased in quantity.

 

As for the possibility of Othard having some Monks in it, I think we need to take a look at the most basic detail here: why would a Monk wish to go there?

 

For starters, the Monks were getting very involved in politics in Gyr Abania before they were almost wiped out, and it doesn't seem likely that any of them would want to leave, especially due to the nature of their religion (and it is a religion, at its core), which is to increase their power in hopes of reaching the heights of their deity, Rhalgr. More of that later, but for now we'll stick to politics. Ala Mhigo warred with the other city states for years, and Ala Mhigans now, even 80 years after the Autumn War, are considered a warring race. Would it be possible for a Mhigan to not have any prejudices against other city states/countries? Perhaps. Is it likely? No.

 

Now, on to the actual Fists of Rhalgr/Monks and how their 'powers' work. I mentioned earlier that Monks 'unlock their chakras' via areas where a lot of violent, dramatic deaths happen. Gyr Abania is the perfect place for this, and any mentally competent Monk wouldn't want to leave such an ideal place for them to grow stronger. Othard might have its violent areas, and I'm sure with clans like the Dotharl lurking there's a decent amount of lingering aether around. However, I highly doubt this would be a good enough reason for a Monk to move from a perfect location to a sub-par one. Also lacking in Othard, at least from what I can tell from the lore Google has provided me, is a worship of Rhalgr, which is one of the core tenets of the Fists/Monks' life. This goes double for the time when Monks are most likely to have left Ala Mhigo...

 

When the King of Ruin tried, and almost succeeded, to wipe out the Monks, any who survived the purge would've fled Gyr Abania. We're told that when the Garleans took over Ala Mhigo that most Highlanders (and by extension Mhigans in general) moved to Thanalan, hoping to cash in on the promised riches of Ul'dah. Now, we've already established that the religious aspects of the Monks were quite important to them, so while a place like Ul'dah isn't too ideal, it's no where near as bad as a place under Imperial rule. What was under Imperial rule at the time that the shadow sect Monks were banished, and when the remaining Monks would've fleed Theodoric's attack? Othard. A place where Garleans are in charge, meaning any Twelve worship is abhorred and banned. Not to mention there would be a strict order imposed on the citizens, so any kind of violent or dramatic deaths would be in places the average person, especially an immigrant, wouldn't be able to get to.

 

Overall, I find it extremely unlikely that a Monk/Fist of Rhalgr would wish to go to Othard, and it would be very special circumstances that someone native to Othard would receive Monk training unless they somehow managed to get in to Gyr Abania and convinced a temple to train them, which would be unlikely due to the aforementioned prejudice against outside races.

[Victarion]

Yes, this all makes sense. 

 

I was using "monk' incorrectly when I made the thread.

 

So this means that Josuke would be not a 'monk', But an aetheric martial artist. No correlation to Ala Mhigo or the Fist of Rhalgr at all.

 

:thumbsup:

[Edric W.]

Yes, this all makes sense. 

 

I was using "monk' incorrectly when I made the thread.

 

So this means that Josuke would be not a 'monk', But an aetheric martial artist. No correlation to Ala Mhigo or the Fist of Rhalgr at all.

 

:thumbsup:

 

Just keep in mind that without the proper training, it's likely that he wouldn't have a lot of aether to manipulate, since he can't 'unlock' any 'chakras'. Unless he has a very high natural aether capacity, he won't be able to do much. So while he might have come across the ability to use aether when he fights, he'll be very limited.

 

Hope that helps.

 

[Victarion]

Yes, this all makes sense. 

 

I was using "monk' incorrectly when I made the thread.

 

So this means that Josuke would be not a 'monk', But an aetheric martial artist. No correlation to Ala Mhigo or the Fist of Rhalgr at all.

 

:thumbsup:

 

Just keep in mind that without the proper training, it's likely that he wouldn't have a lot of aether to manipulate, since he can't 'unlock' any 'chakras'. Unless he has a very high natural aether capacity, he won't be able to do much. So while he might have come across the ability to use aether when he fights, he'll be very limited.

 

Hope that helps.

 

 

 

It's does very much, thank you

[Caspar]

I feel the assertion that only Fists of Rhalgr can be Monks, and only Monks can obtain the use of Chakra to empower themselves is against the spirit of the MNK quest line pre-50, and the idea that the codified method established by the Fists is the only way to achieve further unlocked chakra is against the spirit of the post-50 story line. Either way there are a lot of problems with this line of reasoning, and when speculating, nothing should be worded as if it is canonical fact.

 

It seemed to me during the Monk quests 1-50 that the concept of Chakra (IE. the name and supposed method of manipulation) was a trained method from within FoR. However Erik, who was not trained in the method, was able to observe the process of internalizing latent Aether released from places of mass death and violence, so that suggests to me this is an empirically observable phenomenon, albeit not necessarily one that has progressed in popular knowledge beyond conjecture or an obscure theory.

 

If the process of unlocking Chakra is objective and can be accomplished in that specific method, it is not inconceivable other martial artists who unconsciously or intentionally repeated the method could at least unlock Chakra in the same way, ignorant of the terminology and methodology specified by FoR training. In other words, it's like the multiple discovery concept from science. With all the haranguing about how dangerous this setting is going around the forum, isn't it rather easy to consider the possibility that a person who already understands the concept of using Aether to empower themselves trained in a battlefield where mass death occurred? Perhaps like the leftovers of a massive Xaela tribal war, or even razed Doma?

 

That being said, if there was concurrent discoveries regarding the same natural force, I think that the terminology, method of use and extent of understanding would probably differ wildly. Theoretically, if another group discovered the "Chakra" at the same time, the name given wouldn't be the same. In addition, FoR at its height was very well established and state supported, so it is unlikely another monastic tradition elsewhere in the world would have been able to achieve the same depth of understanding. It might be that they are only capable of unlocking a few Chakra due to limited access to sufficiently Aether-suffused battlefields, too.

 

We've also never established that Monk specifically and exclusively refers to a Fist of Rhalgr. Monk is a generic term like Kleenex in Eorzea; in the context it might refer to a Fist of Rhalgr, and in game play terms that is the only order we're allowed to learn from, but the term itself is pretty standard. Does this mean no monks exist within the Halonic religion, or that the term could not even be applied to their equivalent?

 

Moreover, the +60 storyline suggests that some of the theories about how the Chakra are unlocked towards the higher levels of mastery are either false or poorly understood. You can say "It's the WoL, they're a special snowflake," but I wonder about that. The process of internalizing latent battlefield Aether to open a Chakra is established as objective fact, and it is a specific mechanism that is repeatable among many individuals in different locations given similar circumstances, a fact which Widargelt seemed ignorant of. How could the order be so sure that the method of training is exactly how they established within the Order, long before the Mad King dissolved the temple, when clearly even an experienced Monk seemed to not fully understand at least half of the discipline? And it is established too that there are inimical factions within the temple that have different attitudes on how to go about training.

 

I guess my point is that certain elements of the MNK questline are quantifiable enough that they can't be considered to be something FoR created, only discovered, at least in Eorzea. Other elements cast doubt upon the FoR's absolute knowledge of their own power outside of an instinctual and metaphysical spirituality. There is enough grey area that you could write a convincing enough reason for someone learning to use Aether in martial arts in the manner of the FoR on their own, or as part of a similar martial order. True a lot of speculation is present here, but I think it is ultimately more honest to say "it could happen" rather than assert it as an effective impossibility.

 

Addressing the other approach, I think that the idea of a FoR moving to Othard and eventually training someone isn't inconceivable, but definitely a special case sort of scenario. Considering why someone would do it properly is tricky. We know that the temple was dissolved, and Garlemald rules both Othard and Ala Mhigo. Consider scenarios where a traitor to the order whose training was incomplete cast her lot with the Garleans and went to Othard to train soldiers in martial arts, while cherry picking specific trainees or civilians to build an unofficial, bastard branch of the Fists in secret as a kind of trump card with which they could seize political power after returning to Eorzea, or something like that. Or maybe they were an Obi-Wan style figure who fled Ala Mhigo in shame after failing to defend the country, and found someone with the proper potential in Othard.

 

For these situations, I feel a basic familiarity with martial arts tropes from the core is really helpful in crafting scenarios that feel dramatically interesting and still seem like they could take place in the setting. Watching a lot of Wuxia would probably help. Contrary to the popular Western image of martial artists, the Chinese entertainment and literature bloc has all kinds of empowered warriors, from men who simply obtained great strength from single-minded training, to members of monastic orders, to criminals and thugs who essentially dropped out of chi school, to political fanatics and assassins who developed godlike martial arts to further their cause. It is far from the sterile discipline of shaolinesque monk orders (And even the shaolin are wildly misunderstood) we see in typical RPGs. FoR appears to be this sort of order from the outside, but it doesn't even truly exist anymore, so even that is only suggested by the lore, after the fact. In such a chaotic setting, could any single codified method of training in chakra-based martial arts really be considered to be the only one? That's what I'm skeptical of. Even familiarity with the tropes of martial-arts fiction clearly suggests that anyone, ANYONE who knows the right tricks and has the correct training, and in some cases, latent potential, can be capable of the things FoR is. And even if the techniques are super secret, anyone even passingly familiar with kung fu fiction knows that such techniques never stay secret for long.

[Victarion]

I feel the assertion that only Fists of Rhalgr can be Monks, and only Monks can obtain the use of Chakra to empower themselves is against the spirit of the MNK quest line pre-50, and the idea that the codified method established by the Fists is the only way to achieve further unlocked chakra is against the spirit of the post-50 story line. Either way there are a lot of problems with this line of reasoning, and when speculating, nothing should be worded as if it is canonical fact.

 

It seemed to me during the Monk quests 1-50 that the concept of Chakra (IE. the name and supposed method of manipulation) was a trained method from within FoR. However Erik, who was not trained in the method, was able to observe the process of internalizing latent Aether released from places of mass death and violence, so that suggests to me this is an empirically observable phenomenon, albeit not necessarily one that has progressed in popular knowledge beyond conjecture or an obscure theory.

 

If the process of unlocking Chakra is objective and can be accomplished in that specific method, it is not inconceivable other martial artists who unconsciously or intentionally repeated the method could at least unlock Chakra in the same way, ignorant of the terminology and methodology specified by FoR training. In other words, it's like the multiple discovery concept from science. With all the haranguing about how dangerous this setting is going around the forum, isn't it rather easy to consider the possibility that a person who already understands the concept of using Aether to empower themselves trained in a battlefield where mass death occurred? Perhaps like the leftovers of a massive Xaela tribal war, or even razed Doma?

 

That being said, if there was concurrent discoveries regarding the same natural force, I think that the terminology, method of use and extent of understanding would probably differ wildly. Theoretically, if another group discovered the "Chakra" at the same time, the name given wouldn't be the same. In addition, FoR at its height was very well established and state supported, so it is unlikely another monastic tradition elsewhere in the world would have been able to achieve the same depth of understanding. It might be that they are only capable of unlocking a few Chakra due to limited access to sufficiently Aether-suffused battlefields, too.

 

We've also never established that Monk specifically and exclusively refers to a Fist of Rhalgr. Monk is a generic term like Kleenex in Eorzea; in the context it might refer to a Fist of Rhalgr, and in game play terms that is the only order we're allowed to learn from, but the term itself is pretty standard. Does this mean no monks exist within the Halonic religion, or that the term could not even be applied to their equivalent?

 

Moreover, the +60 storyline suggests that some of the theories about how the Chakra are unlocked towards the higher levels of mastery are either false or poorly understood. You can say "It's the WoL, they're a special snowflake," but I wonder about that. The process of internalizing latent battlefield Aether to open a Chakra is established as objective fact, and it is a specific mechanism that is repeatable among many individuals in different locations given similar circumstances, a fact which Widargelt seemed ignorant of. How could the order be so sure that the method of training is exactly how they established within the Order, long before the Mad King dissolved the temple, when clearly even an experienced Monk seemed to not fully understand at least half of the discipline? And it is established too that there are inimical factions within the temple that have different attitudes on how to go about training.

 

I guess my point is that certain elements of the MNK questline are quantifiable enough that they can't be considered to be something FoR created, only discovered, at least in Eorzea. Other elements cast doubt upon the FoR's absolute knowledge of their own power outside of an instinctual and metaphysical spirituality. There is enough grey area that you could write a convincing enough reason for someone learning to use Aether in martial arts in the manner of the FoR on their own, or as part of a similar martial order. True a lot of speculation is present here, but I think it is ultimately more honest to say "it could happen" rather than assert it as an effective impossibility.

 

Addressing the other approach, I think that the idea of a FoR moving to Othard and eventually training someone isn't inconceivable, but definitely a special case sort of scenario. Considering why someone would do it properly is tricky. We know that the temple was dissolved, and Garlemald rules both Othard and Ala Mhigo. Consider scenarios where a traitor to the order whose training was incomplete cast her lot with the Garleans and went to Othard to train soldiers in martial arts, while cherry picking specific trainees or civilians to build an unofficial, bastard branch of the Fists in secret as a kind of trump card with which they could seize political power after returning to Eorzea, or something like that. Or maybe they were an Obi-Wan style figure who fled Ala Mhigo in shame after failing to defend the country, and found someone with the proper potential in Othard.

 

For these situations, I feel a basic familiarity with martial arts tropes from the core is really helpful in crafting scenarios that feel dramatically interesting and still seem like they could take place in the setting. Watching a lot of Wuxia would probably help. Contrary to the popular Western image of martial artists, the Chinese entertainment and literature bloc has all kinds of empowered warriors, from men who simply obtained great strength from single-minded training, to members of monastic orders, to criminals and thugs who essentially dropped out of chi school, to political fanatics and assassins who developed godlike martial arts to further their cause. It is far from the sterile discipline of shaolinesque monk orders (And even the shaolin are wildly misunderstood) we see in typical RPGs. FoR appears to be this sort of order from the outside, but it doesn't even truly exist anymore, so even that is only suggested by the lore, after the fact. In such a chaotic setting, could any single codified method of training in chakra-based martial arts really be considered to be the only one? That's what I'm skeptical of. Even familiarity with the tropes of martial-arts fiction clearly suggests that anyone, ANYONE who knows the right tricks and has the correct training, and in some cases, latent potential, can be capable of the things FoR is. And even if the techniques are super secret, anyone even passingly familiar with kung fu fiction knows that such techniques never stay secret for long.

 

Your post is amazing, and I'm going to take everything you said into consideration. Thank you so much!

 

I was actually using the Xaelan battlefield approach as methods one could unlock Chakra..and I agree that it's likely a similar, style of fighting could originate elsewhere, which is likely what I will go with. Something that isn't Eorzean or Ala Mhigan in origin, but something else unique to itself.

[Caspar]

It's just my opinion, but thank you anyway.

 

I think that it is best to start out small. Like say, it's an unrefined, instinctual method of fighting in comparison to the training. Try to consider what is reasonable for your character's trainer or order to discover. If they are small, it is less believable that they achieved full understanding of Chakra, using the same terminology, as the FoR did.

 

For instance, my character cannot consciously manipulate aether and derives power from another source (freakishness) but it might have something to do with Chakra... However, none of her training told her anything about use of Aether. So it would be difficult for me to justify within my narrative Virara using techniques like Elixir Beam, Meditation or Howling Fist that seem to draw upon specific uses of Chakra manipulation technique passed down through FoR tradition. Before encountering the Fists, she'd only heard rumors of the concept and never really put much stock in it. Even her mentor in the backstory I wrote, for all her monstrous power, doesn't really know much about Chakra and generally neglects that aspect of her training, because instinctual use of Aether just out of reflex and raw talent served her well for tens of thousands of bouts. In both cases, I tried to think about what an outsider to the order realistically could understand, and what they could ignorantly stumble upon.

 

In other cases, I created monk-like NPCs that use the discipline of conjury-like Aether manipulation that forms the theoretical basis of Ninja abilities. The chassis is similar, but the engine is different. In those cases, I thought about how to incorporate what we observe in the NIN storyline and where there is enough overlap with techniques demonstrated in the MNK storyline that a rough facsimile or hybrid technique could theoretically exist without being too outlandish.

 

Just as an example: This is entirely my speculation, but I like to think that Fuma Shuriken isn't really forming a huge shuriken out of earth and metal elements, but a basic wind technique similar to Aero from Conjury that manipulates the velocity and aerodynamics of the shuriken to give it greater power and accuracy. By that logic, I felt someone who could manipulate air elements could use an immensely boosted version of the same technique to cut with the air itself, and not simply the shuriken, as that seems to be what Aero does. This is just me rambling at this point, though. Really I just want to demonstrate how I think about creating non-canon abilities for purposes of RP. I want to draw from the setting as much as I can, think about how logically someone could conceive of such a technique, and try to tie it to the lore as closely as I can without compromising my vision.

 

Too bad there isn't really any lore on the Duality technique as I am curious as to how that even functions. Is the NIN striking twice within one breath hastily? Are they using the SPOILER power shown in the latter NIN pre 50 quests? There is so much room for theory and interesting concepts just around one skill, and in some ways that ambiguity just makes it more fun to think about.

[Victarion]

Yeah, Josuke doesn't know what Chakra is. not by that name. Much less what 'chakra gates' are.

 

I'm definitely not trying to bust out the gate with a Xaela of the 14th chakra or anything. Just a martial artist Xaela from Othard, simply put.