PVP as an RP element...?

[Vareal]

Seeing as there will be PVP in ARR, however details on the system haven't really be released yet, I'm curious if people were thinking of using this as an avenue for a type of RP battle between either two people or -if they give us some sort of battle ground- between factions and linkshells?

 

I can see how this would sort of take away from RP in a creative aspect, but I think it might actually add to it, somewhat. Add a more real aspect.

 

Say you had two linkshells, who in their RPing, were at each others throats or were vying for control of some spot as their headquarters and the only way to decide who gets what or just simply who gets the glory over another is to have a PVP battle.

 

I think, and this is coming from my Lineage 2 days, it would be extremely cool if they added castles or forts that one linkshell could own, and there be siege's once a month for control.

 

Personally, I'm kind of teetering on this subject as I've never roll played in an MMO and used PvP as an RP tool. Of course it can't replace the normal means of RP combat, but again I'm just curious what you guys think.

[Eva]

I think everything is speculation until the mechanics of PvP are released.  I cannot comment for myself which method I think would be better, and I think either PvP or strict "texting it out" (possibly with the aid of /random) will be left to the preference of those involved in the fight.

 

In either case, I think it's one of those things that would need to be agreed upon by all parties involved OOCly beforehand, no matter which method is used.

 

But that's also my own opinion, and the methods for RPing combat are going to be very dependant upon the values and preferences of those involved.

 

I will say, though, that having another avenue for RPing combat like PvP is exciting and I'm looking forward to seeing how it's implemented.  But what I predict you'll find is that those with leanings more towards endgame or who PvP regularly outside of RP will probably prefer this method while those who shy away from it will likely prefer to run through things in emotes.  Still... more options definitely is a great thing!  :thumbsup:

[Deirdre]

I will personally not be using PvP as an RP element, I prefer writing everything out and the fluidity of doing things based on environment and emotions, and not who can tap buttons faster.

 

I will however, be enjoying PvP as an OOC element ^-^

[Blade]

Going along with what Eva said, it really depends on the agreement between the two parties out-of-characterly.  If you are going to let the game and (your OOC skill) decide who wins in a PvP skirmish, you need to be ready to go along with whatever that result entails.  You give up a bit of control for a greater sense of risk and chance and variability... pros and cons to that.

[Vareal]

Going along with what Eva said, it really depends on the agreement between the two parties out-of-characterly.  If you are going to let the game and (your OOC skill) decide who wins in a PvP skirmish, you need to be ready to go along with whatever that result entails.  You give up a bit of control for a greater sense of risk and chance and variability... pros and cons to that.

Yes but that is what makes it a little bit more exciting because you're not in control of the outcome! I mean yes, writing everything out is just as good, but PvP takes away a certain...godmode -for lack of a better term- that people have in their heads about their character.

 

I mean, rather than just using the game for it's lore, avatars and locations, why not use this tool the game has provided? Sure, I can see how people might say something like, "yeah, my character has this tool though and it trumps that and even though I lost in the PvP, my character wouldn't really loose."

 

When I played Lineage 2 back in the day, the clan I was in was the second largest on the server. When we fought for control over a castle or we had clan vs clan PvP battles, if we lost it would only make us strive to do better and win the next time.

 

I dunno, I just think it would be an interesting avenue to at least explore and test. Once we know more about the PvP system.

[Deirdre]

Going along with what Eva said, it really depends on the agreement between the two parties out-of-characterly.  If you are going to let the game and (your OOC skill) decide who wins in a PvP skirmish, you need to be ready to go along with whatever that result entails.  You give up a bit of control for a greater sense of risk and chance and variability... pros and cons to that.

Yes but that is what makes it a little bit more exciting because you're not in control of the outcome! I mean yes, writing everything out is just as good, but PvP takes away a certain...godmode -for lack of a better term- that people have in their heads about their character.

 

I mean, rather than just using the game for it's lore, avatars and locations, why not use this tool the game has provided? Sure, I can see how people might say something like, "yeah, my character has this tool though and it trumps that and even though I lost in the PvP, my character wouldn't really loose."

 

When I played Lineage 2 back in the day, the clan I was in was the second largest on the server. When we fought for control over a castle or we had clan vs clan PvP battles, if we lost it would only make us strive to do better and win the next time.

 

I dunno, I just think it would be an interesting avenue to at least explore and test. Once we know more about the PvP system.

 

I've RP'd a lot of combat, a lot, and I have to say most of the people who I have done this with do not contain a sense of GMing. We have a good community here with a lot of honest, character driven people, so you would have to be involved in more of that to judge.

 

Regarding the random attributes of RPing combat, there is an element of random, though different groups will use different methods to employ it. Some use dice (which we trust one another to do) and some are just honest about circumstances (ie: if a character was injured previously, the characters set weaknesses and strengths). Personally with Deirdre, I choose actions she could take, roll a die if I cannot decide which one best suits the character, and act. Take in to mind I do not win all of my sparring matches either.

 

I've played a lot of PvP in Aion, I know what PvP entails, and to me it is simply lacking in character development abilities, and the cons outweigh the pros.

[Vareal]

I didn't mean to imply anyone here had a godmode complex, I personally haven't RP'd with a whole lot of people here so I don't know their habits. I was simply using it as an example of what I've seen in the past elsewhere. I've also never RP'd a fight before, so I'm not entirely sure of the different mechanics people use.

 

All I'm saying is that I think PvP as an RP tool would be interesting, but I guess that could be chalked up to the fact that I don't know any better.

[Deirdre]

I didn't mean to imply anyone here had a godmode complex, I personally haven't RP'd with a whole lot of people here so I don't know their habits. I was simply using it as an example of what I've seen in the past elsewhere. I've also never RP'd a fight before, so I'm not entirely sure of the different mechanics people use.

 

All I'm saying is that I think PvP as an RP tool would be interesting, but I guess that could be chalked up to the fact that I don't know any better.

 

Everyone has their own ways of doing things ^-^

 

Who knows, the PvP may be designed where we could in fact use if for RP combat, but I will share my experience that this community is very easy going when it comes to RP combat encounter and recommend you try it out ^-^

[Vareal]

Everyone has their own ways of doing things ^-^

 

Who knows, the PvP may be designed where we could in fact use if for RP combat, but I will share my experience that this community is very easy going when it comes to RP combat encounter and recommend you try it out ^-^

I hope to do that in the near future. ARR is a new start for me in more than one way.

[Deirdre]

Everyone has their own ways of doing things ^-^

 

Who knows, the PvP may be designed where we could in fact use if for RP combat, but I will share my experience that this community is very easy going when it comes to RP combat encounter and recommend you try it out ^-^

I hope to do that in the near future. ARR is a new start for me in more than one way.

 

Well if you need anything let me know I'm always around

We are actually doing some RP combat in a non-cannon thread on the RPC if you're interested in taking a peek!

[Olofantur]

Some Excellent points above, I'll throw in my own.

 

While not a large pvp'er myself I have used the more formal arenas as set pieces in my own stories. The key points I was thinking of using it for in FFXIV ARR providing that it is set up in the arena style some what like Dire Maul.

 

• Hosting Competitions to settle disputes (Your craftsmanship is better than mine?! TO THE PITS! WE FIGHT WITH NAUGHT BUT WHAT WE MAKE!)
  
• Training, My sister and I in WoW would often enter the arena to face off attempting tactics on one-another.
  
• Entertainment, Betting on matches, simply passing the time, maybe rooting for some favorites, mind you this is dependent on our ability to sit in the stands and observe the matches, which I think would also lead to some interesting opportunities. (holding some back door deals as the fights happens?)
  
• The fights could also have a more "Swordspoint" importance (excellent book by Ellen Kushner) where the fights serve as official closures to arguments, the winner being "right" regardless of the actual truth.
  

 

lots of things to considered, it likely won't be a large part of my day to day operations, but to see a new star rise like the Ala'Mhigan Bull would be something worth remembering. Hrm...

[Eva]

One other thing to keep in mind is that PvP may be considered biased depending on the "gear" element.  That is someone who plays through more endgame and has the opportunity to obtain better arms and armor is going to naturally stand a better chance than one of similar skill who is not as well-armed.  Some RPers do a lot of endgame activity.  Others don't.  I'm not sure how accurate it would be to say that someone in the RP world is stronger or faster because they spend more time doing endgame content than someone who would rather take that same time and RP.  So that's another variable.

 

I'd like to see exactly how PvP is set up before expressing any sort of preference, but my inclination right now is along the same lines as Deirdre and I know we've had some fast-paced and fluid RP sparring matches in the past.

 

I think for something like duels it could be very interesting and may speed things up - again, so long as both participants are all right with going the PvP route as opposed to other RP methods.

 

I see merit to both methods.

[allgivenover]

I love me some PVP, but...

 

Many good reasons why it might not work out very well have been stated by others already, there's the possibility of class/job imbalance to consider too. Some jobs will likely be flat out better at 1v1 PVP than others. For that reason I see using /duel to decide RP conflicts as something that would only be suitable for a very limited amount of RP situations, and only if the outcome is acceptable either way for both parties.

 

What little PVP occurred in FFXI was totally dominated by Redmage/Ninja if I recall correctly. Many other job/subjob combos had no fighting chance against a Redmage at all.

[YesGood]

I'm in line with Vareal.

 

I guess I'm one of the few people that is a 100% advocate for PVP being a viable method of dueling. I agree with a lot of the statements above, that the situation and the people involved, as well as their 'skill-level' in PVP are all variables. I also feel that when we start delving into the matter of "It's not fair to use PVP as a method of decision for anything, because some people take the time to get better gear and to practice PVP, and some people are just naturally better" things begin to get a little skewed. If, for instance, PVP was a generally accepted method of dueling and conflict, people would naturally practice and gather the required gear. Oftentimes, it's been my experience that individual skill outclasses gear and class-based advantages, and even level advantages. Skill can be built over time with practice, even by people who think that they 'suck at PVP' and it isn't as one-sided and dictated just by gear and class, etc. as people label it to be. If we're to be so open-minded and mature as to be able to RP out our duels with text, then that same open-mindedness and maturity should apply to PVP. If you never RP a class, don't use it in your PVP. If you lose a duel despite all odds, this is just a surprising victory-- those things happen. Accept them and move on accordingly. Don't assume that because you've 'defeated' someone that they're fainted or dead, and similarly, don't get right up after you've been defeated and start hacking away again with a "HA HA HA I HAD POTIONS, BRAH!". Just like with text-based combat, there are pros and cons, true Roleplayers and trolls who are just antagonizing people for the sake of doing it.

 

For me, at least with PVP, I have a chance, our levels are where we have gotten them physically (It doesn't sit well with me to roleplay an unbeatable warrior of grandeur who loves to get in fights when I'm level 10 then complain that my physical level isn't my 'real' level....), all of the issues of level difference are simply what they are, and widely accepting PVP as a mode for RP duels usually (but not always) reduces the amount of roleplayers whose characters love to step up to someone but refuse to back up antagonizing words with actions. This happens, in text, and PVP, and both ways, it's really annoying. When someone's character runs their mouth off, insulting everyone around them, then they either use 'Well, I don't resort to PVP' or 'Well, I'm too skilled for you to even touch' as their reasoning for eluding any negative repercussions for their actions. Also, it seems that few people never consider the alternative options for PVP fights, such as running away...

 

Either way, I don't feel that a PVP duel detracts from Roleplay. In fact, RP almost always seem to be derailed when things devolve into text-based fights, even when done by the most expert roleplayers with the best intentions. People on the sidelines inevitably will try to get involved, and likely be ignored. People instinctively resort to self-preservation and almost no one can subconsciously agree on what a 'expert' level entails. People who normally roleplay as open novices, still manage somehow to elude veterans, and will continue to do so. And, along with everything else, it takes time. If it happens with a group of other people and those people aren't involved in the fight itself, they're stuck sitting there watching you pound out paragraph after paragraph, move after move, and if they try to get involved and -aren't- ignored, things can suddenly become uncomfortably imbalanced.

 

Altogether, I think maturity and understanding is required for all forms of RP, including duels, in any facet, but I think that PVP is quicker, effective, and a legitimate reflection of how much effort you put into your character to portray how much skill he or she has based on your aspirations.

 

PVP MAY be an available mechanic of the game, and if so, the people who choose to work hard at it, train hard at it, and invest time in building their character in that sense shouldn't have to be concerned about suffering the stigma of others feeling that it's unfair because they want to dedicate all their time to social roleplay and not take their in-game accomplishments into account. I'm not saying people that only want to resort to text for everything involved in their roleplay are wrong, I'm just saying PVP if it's an option, is an available and viable method of dealing with issues, that can be taught, learned, and excelled at with only a small amount of extraneous time and effort.

 

** I should also include, no matter what form of fighting you use, I'm not saying you should instigate it to show off your cool new RP tricks or your gear, or whatever. And Class-based advantages/disadvantages can be easily handled one of two ways--

 

If your character is skilled with his or her fighting craft, he or she probably knows what his or her disadvantages and advantages are. In that sense, looking at a person's clothing and weapons (assuming they have any potential indicator of their class on them) would give them a good idea of what they're up against. If they don't think they can handle it, they should do what any person in that situation does and close their mouths and save themselves the chance of losing, if -surviving- is more important than -honor- or whatever they intended to fight over.

 

The second is, if you know another class has advantages against you, practice against friends or other individuals who are skilled at that class and try to work out a strategy. This is what a fighter in real life does when they know they have a weakness-- they learn to get around it or compensate for it with something else. What's more, you're allowed multiple classes (which presents a new breed of potential issues) but if you go the route of PVPing only what you RP, you have access to at least the skills of two (maybe three?) classes at one time which reduces some of the potential for class advantage in PVP, I would think.

 

*** And, I forgot to mention, I think it would be a cool flavor-injector for linkshell v linkshell, company v company things, but, understandably, not many people want to put in effort to get their whole headquarters and reputation built up as a group only to have it knocked out because someone else roflstomped them in PVP. That affects a lot more people than just a 1 v 1 situation.

[Deirdre]

Those of us who spent a lot of time in 1.0 already have our characters to lvl 50 on multiple classes, relics, and high ranking gear. A new character, which there seem to be a lot incoming in the RP community, isn't going to have that. It takes a lot of time and effort to obtain these things, those of us who remained with the game have 2 years of total accumulation. It's going to take newer people a significant amount of time to catch up, and that's just reality.

 

While I mean to each his own style, no one method is going to be generally accepted in the community.

 

On the note of people becoming involved in things as fights and sparring, this is definitely not always the case. While of course there may be certain causes for intervention, in my own experiences (and since Deir is a spaz and violent, there is a lot of them) people prefer to stay on the sidelines than interfere. (ex: Deir had gone on a rampage with at least 7 people standing there, no one jumped in to stop it)

 

RP sparring, where it is coordinated that two people fight for training purposes, occurred a lot as well. In places like The Eorzean Guard it was built in to the shell to train, and the sparring became less technical and more of an intimate relationship between whoever was fighting who. You feed off of one another, it's actually a very wonderful experience.

 

PvP mechanics, by their very nature, are going to be flawed. There is going to be an imbalance, whether from one class to another or one gear-set to another. It's not something you can control, while you can train at it, you cannot control it like you can text based, and be truer to your character. There isn't going to be on the fly gear switching either, which rules out multiple classes being available to you. If you're a white mage, you're limited to your white mage abilities, and we all know each of our characters are capable of more than that... it's written in the game.

 

I mean, do what pleases you~ but there are a lot more cool things to focus on in the game than beating someone in straight PvP (which is going to take a lot of grinding, and a lot of practice, and yeah, luck), rather than your character out witting them.

[YesGood]

Those of us who spent a lot of time in 1.0 already have our characters to lvl 50 on multiple classes, relics, and high ranking gear. A new character, which there seem to be a lot incoming in the RP community, isn't going to have that. It takes a lot of time and effort to obtain these things, those of us who remained with the game have 2 years of total accumulation. It's going to take newer people a significant amount of time to catch up, and that's just reality.

 

While I mean to each his own style, no one method is going to be generally accepted in the community.

 

On the note of people becoming involved in things as fights and sparring, this is definitely not always the case. While of course there may be certain causes for intervention, in my own experiences (and since Deir is a spaz and violent, there is a lot of them) people prefer to stay on the sidelines than interfere. (ex: Deir had gone on a rampage with at least 7 people standing there, no one jumped in to stop it)

 

RP sparring, where it is coordinated that two people fight for training purposes, occurred a lot as well. In places like The Eorzean Guard it was built in to the shell to train, and the sparring became less technical and more of an intimate relationship between whoever was fighting who. You feed off of one another, it's actually a very wonderful experience.

 

PvP mechanics, by their very nature, are going to be flawed. There is going to be an imbalance, whether from one class to another or one gear-set to another. It's not something you can control, while you can train at it, you cannot control it like you can text based, and be truer to your character. There isn't going to be on the fly gear switching either, which rules out multiple classes being available to you. If you're a white mage, you're limited to your white mage abilities, and we all know each of our characters are capable of more than that... it's written in the game.

 

I mean, do what pleases you~ but there are a lot more cool things to focus on in the game than beating someone in straight PvP (which is going to take a lot of grinding, and a lot of practice, and yeah, luck), rather than your character out witting them.

 

You make a good point, but I think I misspoke on at least one thing and wasn't inclusive enough.

 

I did say 'inevitably' as it's been my experience that whenever a fight is going on, whether or not I'm involved in it, some well-meaning passerby will always try to get involved and stop the fight or intimidate a violent stranger into stopping. My experience, admittedly, is only my experience and therefore limited, and one particular occasion came to mind where I was ignored in such a situation. I suppose to some people, it's legitimate to ignore someone who tries to stop a fight when no one even noticed them standing there and roleplaying for the past four hours, but on the other hand, it seems like a lightsaber in your immediate vicinity would at least slow you down. This is why I gave up trying to roleplay a valiant and upstanding person who sticks their nose in other people's business in that particular atmosphere-- but those kinds of mishaps (and sadly there were quite a few) are probably not likely to occur amongst the people in the RPC.

 

Also, are we 100% sure that people from the old games are bringing all their old characters and garnishes from their old servers to the new ones or that the new people are going to be able to roll on servers with them? I was under the impression that there was going to be some sort of separation on that point-- but regardless, any time a game starts, there are people playing from the get-go, collecting all the great things, and reaching the cap (or various caps) in the game. If that whole obstacle was such a problem, PVP in RP wouldn't exist at all, or if it did, it would only exist for people who were there from the start or at least very early on, which is simply not the case. New gear, new caps, new abilities, new things are happening and there won't be a constant disadvantage for the new people.

 

PVP mechanics may be flawed, and sometimes they're permanently imbalanced-- World of Warcraft is a perpetual testament to that. But one pro to PVP duels, as Varael point out, is the sort of filtering they can manage to do to prevent god-moding. The RPC roleplayers are all mature people, and I know many individuals go to great lengths to avoid anything that might remotely resemble GMing but it exists, and sometimes unintentionally. People's perceptions on what is and is not GMing in certain situations is different, like in everything else. Another is that, even if there -is- imbalance, you -can- overcome that imbalance. It's not impossible.

 

I want to see RP and PVP and just regular game mechanics being taken in to the roleplaying realm and used to further enhance the flavor of the overall RP experience. I agree training together, even leveling together, can be a wonderful experience and I don't think taking five seconds to conduct a PVP-style training session has to detract from that. I want to support other roleplayers, and I don't mind being a bystander while the world is moving at two speeds for everyone involved-- the speeds at which they have to write out their hits and the amount of time it takes for someone to say something to someone else; the alternative being not saying anything and waiting for them to finish up what they're doing. It's the same time issue, however, that can be created by conducting a canon forum rp started on a designated date and time and continuing while people are also roleplaying in game where there are continuity problems and timeline issues.

 

And, yes, the game gives us the ability to be capable of any and everything and have the potential to have our characters -be- everything. It also gives us access to being a hero, one of the supreme special people in the setting, just like in every other MMO, and we agree that not everyone can be the equivalent of the Sultana or Louisoix. I understand that you're saying 'within reason', but where exactly does 'within reason' end when we're talking about your in game potential, which is virtually endless? A jack of all trades is a master of none, so I don't think it's far-fetched for someone to only roleplay fight as one thing or one and a half things at one time and with as much potential as they have, be limited to the range of skills given by the class(es) they feel they want to predominantly use in character.

 

There -are- a lot more cool things than -focusing on beating someone in straight PVP- but that's what I'm talking about. It's not a focus any more than just getting in fights in general should be a focus. It's an accessory, something that can be fun and quick and just as viable for good RPers as text-based RP and doesn't take the majority or even half of your time to do. Your character outwitting someone else isn't very easy, since there's a thinking, self-preserving, witty person on the other side of that.

[Deirdre]

Those of us who spent a lot of time in 1.0 already have our characters to lvl 50 on multiple classes, relics, and high ranking gear. A new character, which there seem to be a lot incoming in the RP community, isn't going to have that. It takes a lot of time and effort to obtain these things, those of us who remained with the game have 2 years of total accumulation. It's going to take newer people a significant amount of time to catch up, and that's just reality.

 

While I mean to each his own style, no one method is going to be generally accepted in the community.

 

On the note of people becoming involved in things as fights and sparring, this is definitely not always the case. While of course there may be certain causes for intervention, in my own experiences (and since Deir is a spaz and violent, there is a lot of them) people prefer to stay on the sidelines than interfere. (ex: Deir had gone on a rampage with at least 7 people standing there, no one jumped in to stop it)

 

RP sparring, where it is coordinated that two people fight for training purposes, occurred a lot as well. In places like The Eorzean Guard it was built in to the shell to train, and the sparring became less technical and more of an intimate relationship between whoever was fighting who. You feed off of one another, it's actually a very wonderful experience.

 

PvP mechanics, by their very nature, are going to be flawed. There is going to be an imbalance, whether from one class to another or one gear-set to another. It's not something you can control, while you can train at it, you cannot control it like you can text based, and be truer to your character. There isn't going to be on the fly gear switching either, which rules out multiple classes being available to you. If you're a white mage, you're limited to your white mage abilities, and we all know each of our characters are capable of more than that... it's written in the game.

 

I mean, do what pleases you~ but there are a lot more cool things to focus on in the game than beating someone in straight PvP (which is going to take a lot of grinding, and a lot of practice, and yeah, luck), rather than your character out witting them.

 

You make a good point, but I think I misspoke on at least one thing and wasn't inclusive enough.

 

I did say 'inevitably' as it's been my experience that whenever a fight is going on, whether or not I'm involved in it, some well-meaning passerby will always try to get involved and stop the fight or intimidate a violent stranger into stopping. My experience, admittedly, is only my experience and therefore limited, and one particular occasion came to mind where I was ignored in such a situation. I suppose to some people, it's legitimate to ignore someone who tries to stop a fight when no one even noticed them standing there and roleplaying for the past four hours, but on the other hand, it seems like a lightsaber in your immediate vicinity would at least slow you down. This is why I gave up trying to roleplay a valiant and upstanding person who sticks their nose in other people's business in that particular atmosphere-- but those kinds of mishaps (and sadly there were quite a few) are probably not likely to occur amongst the people in the RPC.

 

Also, are we 100% sure that people from the old games are bringing all their old characters and garnishes from their old servers to the new ones or that the new people are going to be able to roll on servers with them? I was under the impression that there was going to be some sort of separation on that point-- but regardless, any time a game starts, there are people playing from the get-go, collecting all the great things, and reaching the cap (or various caps) in the game. If that whole obstacle was such a problem, PVP in RP wouldn't exist at all, or if it did, it would only exist for people who were there from the start or at least very early on, which is simply not the case.  New gear, new caps, new abilities, new things are happening and there won't be a constant disadvantage for the new people.

 

PVP mechanics may be flawed, and sometimes they're permanently imbalanced-- World of Warcraft is a perpetual testament to that. But one pro to PVP duels, as Varael point out, is the sort of filtering they can manage to do to prevent god-moding. The RPC roleplayers are all mature people, and I know many individuals go to great lengths to avoid anything that might remotely resemble GMing but it exists, and sometimes unintentionally. People's perceptions on what is and is not GMing in certain situations is different, like in everything else. Another is that, even if there -is- imbalance, you -can- overcome that imbalance. It's not impossible.

 

I want to see RP and PVP and just regular game mechanics being taken in to the roleplaying realm and used to further enhance the flavor of the overall RP experience. I agree training together, even leveling together, can be a wonderful experience and I don't think taking five seconds to conduct a PVP-style training session has to detract from that. I want to support other roleplayers, and I don't mind being a bystander while the world is moving at two speeds for everyone involved-- the speeds at which they have to write out their hits and the amount of time it takes for someone to say something to someone else; the alternative being not saying anything and waiting for them to finish up what they're doing. It's the same time issue, however, that can be created by conducting a canon forum rp started on a designated date and time and continuing while people are also roleplaying in game where there are continuity problems and timeline issues.

 

And, yes, the game gives us the ability to be capable of any and everything and have the potential to have our characters -be- everything. It also gives us access to being a hero, one of the supreme special people in the setting, just like in every other MMO, and we agree that not everyone can be the equivalent of the Sultana or Louisoix. I understand that you're saying 'within reason', but where exactly does 'within reason' end when we're talking about your in game potential, which is virtually endless? A jack of all trades is a master of none, so I don't think it's far-fetched for someone to only roleplay fight as one thing or one and a half things at one time and with as much potential as they have, be limited to the range of skills given by the class(es) they feel they want to predominantly use in character.

 

There -are- a lot more cool things than -focusing on beating someone in straight PVP- but that's what I'm talking about. It's not a focus any more than just getting in fights in general should be a focus. It's an accessory, something that can be fun and quick and just as viable for good RPers as text-based RP and doesn't take the majority or even half of your time to do. Your character outwitting someone else isn't very easy, since there's a thinking, self-preserving, witty person on the other side of that.

 

Ahh so many points to reply too @.@ hehehe

 

I mean, everyone is going to have different experiences, just as mine and yours have differed when it comes to people getting involved. I mean I can't say it will or won't happen, it just depends on the kind of characters you end up having in a room. A lot of what I see on the RPC is people trying to be true to their characters nature (and I'll use Deir as an example a lot because who do you know better than your own character?). Deir won't get involved in two people just fighting it out, she doesn't care, but if it came to a good friend of hers getting physically hurt? Then yeah depending on the circumstances she might jump in. That's all situational, and PvP is something that will end up limiting that ability to have that situation arise.

 

100% sure, anything and everything I had on Deir (and her retainers) is coming with me to 2.0. Which means gear, levels, items... everything. The RPC designated RP server for a fact will be a server that will contain people from 1.0, and thus the things they bring with them. New characters will be able to roll on these servers, and since a huge base of the RP community is from 1.0, the likelihood of us rolling on a previous 1.0 server is like, definite. If you wanted a fresh server, you would have to roll on one that does not contain the bulk of the RP community.

 

I'm pretty sure we all know what accounts as GMing, most of us are not new to that fact. While I cannot say it does not occur, there are methods of addressing that.

 

It's not so much that the imbalance isn't impossible to overcome, it's that there is no real need for it to be overcome. I want RP to be fluid, natural, I don't want to have to fight mechanics and all the rest of it to also be able to play my character appropriately.

 

Addressing the time factor of RP is another thing. While yeah, sure it is going to take longer than a quick 5 second PvP match, there is also more involved, more depth. It's not the same as forum RP, where you could wait two or three days for a post, and it's definatly not as lengthy in text. It's quick, you have to think quick and act, there is no real sitting around and waiting. A sentance or two, and emote. If you're going to RP spar, your head has to be in your character, and ready to go. I don't know anyone who has pushed anything back to forum RP from the game, unless it was private between two characters. It's actually a struggle in this community to get people RPing on the forums.

 

I speak a lot about RP sparring because that's how I got my start to RP. Admittedly it was a LONG time ago, and the character was not my own creation, but everyone starts somewhere. It was time based, improper spelling and grammar counted against you. You had to be quick and accurate, and if you weren't, the penalty was often a successful hit. Not to say this is how it is in FFXIV RP sparring, it's not, but this is just where my head-space on the matter comes.

 

With classes and characters relation, you're right. Characters are going to have their strengths and weaknesses, and it's usually apparent. Just take a peek at the wikis, most people have OOCly stated their characters flaws, and everyone I know sticks to that pretty well.

While the story tells us 'we can be the hero', most of us do not play our characters as following the 'main plot'. Instead they exist in this realm we have been given, with the Lore provided, and we make our own lives out of it. In most cases this has nothing to do with grand schemes, but personal challenges and issues. While I'm not saying there aren't characters trying to be the 'hero', it's rarely the case.

 

It's not always about who is on the other end of your RP. It's about the characters themselves, and this is the depth that PvP just does not provide. While it can be a good tool, sure why not, it doesn't do it for me. I'm not trying to out wit the person who is RPing with me, I'm trying to be my character. I'm trying to be Deirdre, make her come across and act out what she would do, and respond in turn to the character she is with, not the RPer.

There are more outcomes than just winning and losing in RP sparring, unlike PvP in it's base element. There is emotion; shouting and screaming and crying or laughing. There is pain; wounds inflicted, old injuries effecting performance. Perhaps the fighting stops in the middle, cause the other person suddenly apologizes, or breaks down because they are only acting out pent up anxiety.

PvP is technical. You win, or you lose.

 

<3

[TheLastCandle]

I've never been one to seek out IC fights; it's simply not a focus of mine. But it does happen, and I think both text-based and "real" PvP have their pros and cons in role-playing. I usually prefer a combination of the two, especially if it's become clear that one or both of the participants obviously wants to win.

 

I'm all for good storytelling, and oftentimes a defeat is a more successful means of developing a character. But let's face it - pit two characters against each other and even the most well-intentioned players might feel a bit competitive, even if it's an effort to "outwit" the other player, as Deirdre put it. This is where things can get a bit messy, in my experience, if both players feel that their character "should" win.

 

In short, PvP provides a rather clear and indisputable resolution to an IC conflict, takes advantage of the visual medium in which we all interact, and usually doesn't last as long as most emote-fights. Text-based battles have the advantage of putting two characters on fairly equal footing in terms of gear and levels. I think flexibility is the key here, and if two players can't agree on how to proceed with the fight, both should likely find some way of bowing out.

[Moltove]

Either way, I don't feel that a PVP duel detracts from Roleplay. In fact, RP almost always seem to be derailed when things devolve into text-based fights, even when done by the most expert roleplayers with the best intentions. People on the sidelines inevitably will try to get involved, and likely be ignored. People instinctively resort to self-preservation and almost no one can subconsciously agree on what a 'expert' level entails. People who normally roleplay as open novices, still manage somehow to elude veterans, and will continue to do so. And, along with everything else, it takes time. If it happens with a group of other people and those people aren't involved in the fight itself, they're stuck sitting there watching you pound out paragraph after paragraph, move after move, and if they try to get involved and -aren't- ignored, things can suddenly become uncomfortably imbalanced.

 

Altogether, I think maturity and understanding is required for all forms of RP, including duels, in any facet, but I think that PVP is quicker, effective, and a legitimate reflection of how much effort you put into your character to portray how much skill he or she has based on your aspirations.

So, in my experiences in EQ2, I noticed this whole sideline thing ALL TO OFTEN. It always seems to start 1 V 1 but eventually both players end up having a small group arrive to help. If the fight isn't organized at all, it can get messy as paragraph after paragraph flies through the chat box. That is, to say...if you aren't ignored. I felt border-line offended knowing that a couple times my character, or rather my OOC attempt to include my character, was blown off. Of course, better thinking allows me to realize that there's just too many characters on the screen, attacks coming from every direction, and no control over the chat box so things are bound to be missed. Having a choice of PvP could ease these troubles... or, you can /say ((Hey guys, hold off one second, let's try to pair off into groups to clear out the clutter and get more organized!)). Either way.

 

Witnessing two players go at it, and you're nothing but a number in the small crowd, it's a little different, and I have to admit boring sometimes, depending on what the fight is about and how my character is involved/perceives it and if he was there to actually hear what's going on. But if the fight drags on, I'm apt to leave. If I'm part of it, and have to wait until the fight is over? Well, then I guess I'll be taking a few smoke breaks, lol. PvP could expidite this, especially if anyone is strapped for time, or open communication to decide how to progress things faster. Often times, it's the "My character's not going down! Oh yeah? Mine's not either!" mentality that we ALL have been guilty of somewhere along the line.

 

My experience with PvP in RP has been sparce, but I've fought enough in my time as an Assassin in EQ2. I'm one of those people who love to work on their characters as much as possible, because I take pride in my little baby Molt. Well, except in XIV...Molt was SoL for any Scout classes and I have to admit, 1.0 /barely/ held my interest. But anyways, I will admit that I won almost every PvP RP fight, mostly because I put a lot of effort in my class. Gear (despite not being a raider), *correct* skill points, positioning tactics and hotbar organization made the difference. (sigh) Sorry, getting sidetracked. Anyways, RPers are so different from each other, that it's hard to predict who actually put time into their class and there's always a mix of high levels and low levels, and it's sort of fun like that sometimes. But a common discrepency I've noticed is that there are VERY FEW RPers that actually go out and get the best gear, arrange their hotbars in the best way, put all their attributes and skill points in the correct* slots. This makes it so a lvl 40 Assassin can get the upper hand of a 45-50 Shadow Knight.

 

The problem that I see is that there are people who focus soley on social RP and say that they are more experienced than their physical level. But then what about the people who put effort in both RP and PvE content? No one will be satisfied, so I guess we're back to square 1.

 

Oh wait, we're not. We're at square 2, because as fun-loving, mature (mostly >.>) adults we know that we have the option to type out our fights if we have time or are feeling creative or PvP if we wanna just pinch one out (*snicker*). My only advice would be to just try it out. But the fact that this issue has met with so much friction in this thread has me wondering what the problem really is. PvP can be a choice, especially if there's a duel option.

 

Luckily Ypshi P announced PvP won't be a big thing. There will be 2 (I think) zones dedicated to PvP, and arenas in every city for 1 v 1, 4 v 4 and 8 v 8. I hope there will be a duel command , but probably not. Until then you'll have to RP that the guards will kick you out of the city if you fight.

*(correct as in there's always only one correct way to spec unless if you're a tank or healer. As DPS or as a Buffer, you are always expected, in groups, to have either top DPS [which is only one spec, there is never a comparable second spec] or certain buffs debuffs, which limit what you actually can spec anywhere else other than the basics. Healers must usually spec for certain buffs and absolute heal things, until they can start compensating for speccing for some DPS. Tanks...just have to survive and maintain aggro. Usually if you don't have top gear, you have to spec for both, and there's always only one way to do so but once you get higher tier gear, people care less as survivability comes a little easier, and aggro may be easier to manage, therefore what your gear has, you can slowly spec for DPS. Of which there is only one way to spec, usually.

[NKato]

 

 

Either way, I don't feel that a PVP duel detracts from Roleplay. In fact, RP almost always seem to be derailed when things devolve into text-based fights, even when done by the most expert roleplayers with the best intentions. People on the sidelines inevitably will try to get involved, and likely be ignored. People instinctively resort to self-preservation and almost no one can subconsciously agree on what a 'expert' level entails. People who normally roleplay as open novices, still manage somehow to elude veterans, and will continue to do so. And, along with everything else, it takes time. If it happens with a group of other people and those people aren't involved in the fight itself, they're stuck sitting there watching you pound out paragraph after paragraph, move after move, and if they try to get involved and -aren't- ignored, things can suddenly become uncomfortably imbalanced.

 

 

Bolded the part that happened to me when I was RPing with Shurin and we encountered Deirdre and Navei out in the boonies.

 

Tried to resolve it through OOC discussion in /tell, that went nowhere. I threw up my arms in exasperation and just played along what I could.

 

To be honest, examples like these are why I've decided to give up on trying to enjoy roleplay on Balmung. It's just not worth the hassle anymore.

[Deirdre]

 

 

Either way, I don't feel that a PVP duel detracts from Roleplay. In fact, RP almost always seem to be derailed when things devolve into text-based fights, even when done by the most expert roleplayers with the best intentions. People on the sidelines inevitably will try to get involved, and likely be ignored. People instinctively resort to self-preservation and almost no one can subconsciously agree on what a 'expert' level entails. People who normally roleplay as open novices, still manage somehow to elude veterans, and will continue to do so. And, along with everything else, it takes time. If it happens with a group of other people and those people aren't involved in the fight itself, they're stuck sitting there watching you pound out paragraph after paragraph, move after move, and if they try to get involved and -aren't- ignored, things can suddenly become uncomfortably imbalanced.

 

 

Bolded the part that happened to me when I was RPing with Shurin and we encountered Deirdre and Navei out in the boonies.

 

Tried to resolve it through OOC discussion in /tell, that went nowhere. I threw up my arms in exasperation and just played along what I could.

 

To be honest, examples like these are why I've decided to give up on trying to enjoy roleplay on Balmung. It's just not worth the hassle anymore.

 

As I mentioned further above, GMing will not be tolerated when it comes to anything RP, including sparring. The reason you were ignored was because of that fact, and because of the rude OOC comments you made.

 

You really have no argument here, if anything you are an example of why things go awry.

[Vareal]

You guys write so much and make so many good points, I think I started a thread outside of my own skill level with RPing in general. Like I said earlier, I've never RP'd a fight before but I'm all for it.

 

As far as PvP as an RP mechanic, I was simply making a suggestion that, if, it's a good mechanic, that it could be incorporated into RP elements, not replace the traditional text based RP fights. It's just an avenue to explore.

 

And I 100% understand the fact that one class would be better over the other and that is also where I disagree with Siobhain about being able to adapt to your weaknesses or the strengths of another class. In PvP, there are simply classes that dominate the other classes no matter what and that depends on how the balancing is done.

 

Take Lineage 2 for example. When I started playing, the Abyss Walker class was the creme of the crop. After an expansion update and changes to the PvP balancing to make it "more fair" to the other classes, the Nuker classes (spell howler, wizard, necromancer etc.) became the one's to look out for. The Spell Howler was by far the best and could decimate any other class in single combat. So that does bring up a good point: how do you approach that? Until we know more about ARR's PvP system, there can be no educated guess but I think that, on a wide scale such as linkshell vs linkshell PvP battles, it could be an interesting element.

 

Again, I just think that PvP could keep certain elements...'alive' and 'fresh'. That's just me, I still feel a little out classed here.

[Deirdre]

You guys write so much and make so many good points, I think I started a thread outside of my own skill level with RPing in general. Like I said earlier, I've never RP'd a fight before but I'm all for it.

 

As far as PvP as an RP mechanic, I was simply making a suggestion that, if, it's a good mechanic, that it could be incorporated into RP elements, not replace the traditional text based RP fights. It's just an avenue to explore.

 

And I 100% understand the fact that one class would be better over the other and that is also where I disagree with Siobhain about being able to adapt to your weaknesses or the strengths of another class. In PvP, there are simply classes that dominate the other classes no matter what and that depends on how the balancing is done.

 

Take Lineage 2 for example. When I started playing, the Abyss Walker class was the creme of the crop. After an expansion update and changes to the PvP balancing to make it "more fair" to the other classes, the Nuker classes (spell howler, wizard, necromancer etc.) became the one's to look out for. The Spell Howler was by far the best and could decimate any other class in single combat. So that does bring up a good point: how do you approach that? Until we know more about ARR's PvP system, there can be no educated guess but I think that, on a wide scale such as linkshell vs linkshell PvP battles, it could be an interesting element.

 

Again, I just think that PvP could keep certain elements...'alive' and 'fresh'. That's just me, I still feel a little out classed here.

 

Hahhaa, don't feel out classed at all~

Once things get up and running, you guys will mesh in nicely and everything will go smoothly ^-^ As always if you need any help or have question, just ask~

[NKato]

 

 

Either way, I don't feel that a PVP duel detracts from Roleplay. In fact, RP almost always seem to be derailed when things devolve into text-based fights, even when done by the most expert roleplayers with the best intentions. People on the sidelines inevitably will try to get involved, and likely be ignored. People instinctively resort to self-preservation and almost no one can subconsciously agree on what a 'expert' level entails. People who normally roleplay as open novices, still manage somehow to elude veterans, and will continue to do so. And, along with everything else, it takes time. If it happens with a group of other people and those people aren't involved in the fight itself, they're stuck sitting there watching you pound out paragraph after paragraph, move after move, and if they try to get involved and -aren't- ignored, things can suddenly become uncomfortably imbalanced.

 

 

Bolded the part that happened to me when I was RPing with Shurin and we encountered Deirdre and Navei out in the boonies.

 

Tried to resolve it through OOC discussion in /tell, that went nowhere. I threw up my arms in exasperation and just played along what I could.

 

To be honest, examples like these are why I've decided to give up on trying to enjoy roleplay on Balmung. It's just not worth the hassle anymore.

 

As I mentioned further above, GMing will not be tolerated when it comes to anything RP, including sparring. The reason you were ignored was because of that fact, and because of the rude OOC comments you made.

 

You really have no argument here, if anything you are an example of why things go awry.

....

 

Wow. I'm not even going to dignify that blatant accusation with a response. All I was trying to do was illustrate the lack of an appropriate resolution to the issue while we were roleplaying at that point in time.

 

I don't like it when two actors can't even improvise to produce a good performance, and it ends up being a hilariously god-awful act that even a five-year old child could surpass.

 

That said, PVP should be taken as an optional, serious RP mechanic.

[Vareal]

Hahhaa, don't feel out classed at all~

Once things get up and running, you guys will mesh in nicely and everything will go smoothly ^-^ As always if you need any help or have question, just ask~

 

Thanks! I'll be sure to ask. I'll have tons of questions later, I'm sure.

---

 

 

Either way, I don't feel that a PVP duel detracts from Roleplay. In fact, RP almost always seem to be derailed when things devolve into text-based fights, even when done by the most expert roleplayers with the best intentions. People on the sidelines inevitably will try to get involved, and likely be ignored. People instinctively resort to self-preservation and almost no one can subconsciously agree on what a 'expert' level entails. People who normally roleplay as open novices, still manage somehow to elude veterans, and will continue to do so. And, along with everything else, it takes time. If it happens with a group of other people and those people aren't involved in the fight itself, they're stuck sitting there watching you pound out paragraph after paragraph, move after move, and if they try to get involved and -aren't- ignored, things can suddenly become uncomfortably imbalanced.

 

 

Bolded the part that happened to me when I was RPing with Shurin and we encountered Deirdre and Navei out in the boonies.

 

Tried to resolve it through OOC discussion in /tell, that went nowhere. I threw up my arms in exasperation and just played along what I could.

 

To be honest, examples like these are why I've decided to give up on trying to enjoy roleplay on Balmung. It's just not worth the hassle anymore.

 

As I mentioned further above, GMing will not be tolerated when it comes to anything RP, including sparring. The reason you were ignored was because of that fact, and because of the rude OOC comments you made.

 

You really have no argument here, if anything you are an example of why things go awry.

....

 

Wow. I'm not even going to dignify that blatant accusation with a response. All I was trying to do was illustrate the lack of an appropriate resolution to the issue while we were roleplaying at that point in time.

 

I don't like it when two actors can't even improvise to produce a good performance, and it ends up being a hilariously god-awful act that even a five-year old child could surpass.

 

That said, PVP should be taken as an optional, serious RP mechanic.

 

Alright guys, enough. Lets not derail the topic please.