discussion Rolling Systems in RP

[Sasarna Sarna]

Sasarna, where the hell have you been all my life.

I've been around, I just didn't see this thread until now.

[Venjamin]

@[Verad] ( I don't know if tagging works the same here... )

 

Rhydin. Talk about a blast from the past. I know exactly what you're talking about - I cut my teeth on the old AOL chat rooms.

 

Anyways!

 

I'm actually really surprised that a roll system is used for combat at all, considering we're in a game. I suppose it makes sense when you're playing a character that doesn't fall into a traditional Job/Class. I think I just expected that if things went down, it'd be a right-click, challenge to normal match and go ham on one another. 

 

My personal opinion is that narrative is the way to go, but I play tabletops (dnd 5e and whitewolf ) and can enjoy dice rolls when appropriate. The only kicker is a way to show acquired skill, etc., which inherently unbalances a system.

 

So. Sideways.

[Gegenji]

I'm actually really surprised that a roll system is used for combat at all, considering we're in a game. I suppose it makes sense when you're playing a character that doesn't fall into a traditional Job/Class. I think I just expected that if things went down, it'd be a right-click, challenge to normal match and go ham on one another. 

 

Quoting someone tends to give them an alert that they've been messaged, so doing that would likely help grab Verad's attention. Anyway...

 

If I'm not mistaken, you really can't just Duel people out in the open like you can in WoW. You'd have to go all the way to the Wolf's Den PvP area in La Noscea if you wanted to do that.

 

... And even then, that is less a show of your character's skill and aptitude and more your own personal mechanical skill at the game. Furthermore, the PVP move sets for the various combat jobs are different from what you use in PVE, so there's the additional mechanical knowledge of how to specifically battle in the provided PVP environment. And that's not even getting into the PVP meta of which jobs do better there than others, especially in a 1v1 situation.

 

It just adds what I feel is an additional requirement to the RP situation that doesn't need to be there. You can't just say you're a solid fighter, you have to have honed PVP skills to "prove" it rather than portraying it via writing like everything else in RP.

 

... Of course, I suppose at its basest level even creating character sheets and learning an external system like FATE-14 or Sasarna's DnD-Lite is ALSO an additional requirement that just as easily might not need to be there. So, in essence, using the in-game dueling system (if any) to show combat prowess is just as good as any of the other systems in that it has its uses but also has its flaws.

[Erah'sae]

I think I just expected that if things went down, it'd be a right-click, challenge to normal match and go ham on one another. 

 

While I enjoy a good bout of pvp, I have problems with mechanical pvp, and it creeps into any heavy system based thing.  I get very performance self-competitive when playing video games.  Always pushing myself to do better.  In mechanical pvp it's -really- hard for me not to play at my best.

 

Narrative combat lets me have Erah'sae 'fail' more and in more interesting ways.

[Kilieit]

I'm actually really surprised that a roll system is used for combat at all' date=' considering we're in a game. I suppose it makes sense when you're playing a character that doesn't fall into a traditional Job/Class. I think I just expected that if things went down, it'd be a right-click, challenge to normal match and go ham on one another. [/quote']

 

That's for Triple Triad matches... while the idea of people using card games to decide fights is kind of hilarious, I only have the default deck and wouldn't be super chuffed at having to farm cards just to be able to RP a character who's skilled at martial combat. >_> It'd be just another form of RNG, with more "ha-ha I've been playing the game longer than you so you're gonna lose" mixed in.

 

I'm glad PvP duels are restricted geographically. As someone who levels very slowly and doesn't really care about gearing up (still level 68 seven weeks after expac launch, sup) the expectation that an out of character duel should decide in character outcome sucks. It sucked in WoW. It would suck here. In my experience, the only people who think it's good are the people who it works for - whose character matches up with their PvP experience... but I think that's a dumb thing to limit by. You shouldn't be restricted to playing weaponless peasants if you're bad at PvP. It's arbitrary.

 

It's true that someone gaming a roll system could gain a similar advantage, but at least that's, like... roleplay-related. As much as I have a distaste for systems (especially ones that take hours to pick up), while you're learning a new one, you're thinking constantly about your RP character. You're considering their abilities and how best to portray them via the system. You're talking with your DM about how best to implement your character's special traits. You're bringing them out through their character sheet.

 

When you're learning PvP, you're not thinking about any of that - it's pure game mechanics, and there's a specific set of ways to play your job to win, meaning there's no room for character flavour. To put it in WoW terms, because specs make it easier to demonstrate what I mean - if Elemental shaman is weak in PvP right now and Enhancement shaman is strong, it doesn't matter how well Ele fits my character's story. It doesn't matter how long she's been attuning to the elements and how well her cause aligns with theirs. It doesn't matter if she has physical reasons why she shouldn't be an effective melée fighter, meaning turret casting makes more sense for her as a tactic. If I want her to win a fight she needs to be Enh. Regardless of opponent. End of story.

 

That's why roll systems are the superior method of deciding an outcome, IMO - PvP may as well be rock-paper-scissors for how much it tells you about the person's actual RP character.

 

TL;DR I agree with Gegenji.

[zaviire]

I like roll systems in RP, but I hate straight-rolls where it's basically a coin toss, or along the lines of "oh, well I rolled higher than you, so I win." Roll systems make things interesting because they're reasonably unpredictable and they force both players and DMs to cope with the possibility that their plans won't always work out the way they want -- there will be hiccups and snags along the way. But the sorts of systems I've seen have either been so simple that I personally feel like the purpose of having a system to begin with is kind of defeated, or so complex that I couldn't reasonably expect anyone to even bother (because I, as a player OR a DM, don't want to bother; while I do want to get into tabletop at some point, I don't really want to put D&D into my FFXIV).

 

For me, the perfect roll system is quick to pick up and easy to adapt, but still goes deep enough that I can get an idea of what kind of skills, specialties, and weaknesses a character has at a glance. So I guess that means it's important for me to have something to glance at -- I know not everyone likes character sheets but I come from Tumblr and forum RP, where everyone's character profiles and sheets are not only laid out for everyone to see, but everyone who wants to RP with you is expected to read them. But it made it a lot easier for people who wanted to run plots to get a feel for what kinds of characters they were dealing with.

 

I also like roll systems because in my personal experience, if you give someone the freedom to choose, people will almost always choose to have their character succeed no matter what they say. And I hate that, because personally... Watching or playing with people who always gotta win isn't very much fun, especially if that success is unconditional.

[Firefly]

Obviously, it's not as simple as this (exceptions to everything), but here's my take on roll-systems and free-form systems for Combat RP:

 

Both are absolutely fine, valid, and should, ideally, be used together.

 

Ideally, combatants in an RP fight should pay great attention to their (and definitely their adversary's) character's actions, strengths, weaknesses, and strategy; with these traits/decisions forming the basis of the outcomes of the fight. They should at most be supplemented by rolls (ie. success/failure is not decided by them), to simulate mistakes, circumstance, and the general chaos of combat.

 

Of course, this takes a lot of trust between players, and for them to both be on the same page, which brings me onto the true reason for the divided opinions on rolling/RNG-RP:

 

Combat RP is one of those things that everyone likes to do, but don't put enough work into.

 

This isn't necessarily a bad thing -- it's unreasonable to expect people to go deep and research the intricacies of fighting for the sake of playing pretend on the internet; much like how it's unreasonable to expect people to go deep and research the intricacies of mental/physical disorders etc. -- but its necessary to acknowledge/recognise this when talking about the strengths/weaknesses of Combat Resolution Systems in RP, as it highlights the demographic you'll exclude by going one direction or the other.

 

Competent combat is an incredibly technical (but sometimes simple) art that requires an innate, instinctual, subconcious understanding of biomechanics and basic physics to do. There is a huge divide between a trained (MMA, boxer, fencer, etc.) and untrained (average joe bar brawler) fighter, and that divide is the aforementioned technical knowledge; and the nerves/experience to apply it under stress/pressure.

 

Unfortunately, the huge problems are:

 

1. To the untrained eye, fights are just fights; they can't exactly pick out the technical intricacies of someone's movements/gameplan
   
2. Nobody gives a shit about how Holly Holm beat the shit out of Ronda Rousey; just that she did
   
3. Text is an incredibly difficult medium to portray close-combat, when trying to avoid using technical terms (the average RPer would have no idea on what an 'absetzen' is, for example)
   

 

RP/writing isn't the only artistic medium that's faced these problems. Films have historically been plagued with the issue; which is why you have editors slowing down Bruce Lee's kicks, or shaky-cam-rapid-cuts in the Jason Bourne series.

 

These things are done to give the audience the spectacle and thrill of combat by either (in Bruce Lee's case) making the actions slower/telegraphed and much clearer so that the audience can follow what's going on (see John Wick and the Raid for some kick-ass clarity-of-technique examples); or (in the Bourne series' case) shake the camera, cut rapidly, and end the scene early to obfuscate the technical details, and simply convey the struggle through chaos.

 

The reason I highlight this is because this is the exact situation Combat RP Resolution is in. RPers have to either describe their character's actions in detail, or do it vaguely and let the dice determine success/failure. Doing both at the same time is a nightmare; as they take away each other's strengths as systems.

 

Finally, one thing to consider is that if you try to RP fight without doing any meaningful research, you make your fights look less like this, and more like this.

[Caspar]

Finally, one thing to consider is that if you try to RP fight without doing any meaningful research, you make your fights look less like this, and more like this.

 

How about both.

That aside, the role of dice as a mediator really shouldn't be ignored. Ideally RPers could decide who won as collaborators, via comparison of things like narrative goals as well as the previously mentioned factors of decisionmaking and training. But this approach of "research first and dice second" falls apart the moment players can't fully agree on what one or more characters ought to be capable of. In such cases, I think the dice can salvage a scene and still potentially create something people might enjoy reading. Moreover there are also people who enjoy randomized results and upsets, rather than constantly assign victory to who logically should win, since surprises are interesting to many. Of course upsets shock because they're rare, so usually dice systems are also a way to ensure some level of consistency in results.

 

The other thing to consider is, like in the example, the difference in artistic approach in "coreography" means that the two styles will eventually meet, and mediative dice roll may be the only way to comfortably allow both players the freedom necessary to enjoy the scene. I don't think the fight should necessarily be determined by ooc factors like who read more books on medieval fencing but the dice are also an ooc factor so that bears consideration as well. The ultimate goal really ought to be to create a scene that is interesting and satisfying to write for both parties; the game doesn't uphold many examples of medieval realism for example but that shouldn't make the approach unacceptable for play. In a scene with one RPer playing Dongfang Bubai or Lu Bu or sth and the other is playing Gabriel Feraud, it might be impossible to reconcile the two styles for sure, but ideally a system of rolling is something that can allow role players to accentuate their storytelling methods rather than skewing to one specific writing style or another, and still maintain a random element to allow for upsets.

[Firefly]

That aside, the role of dice as a mediator really shouldn't be ignored. Ideally RPers could decide who won as collaborators, via comparison of things like narrative goals as well as the previously mentioned  factors of decisionmaking and training.

 

But this approach of "research first and dice second" falls apart the moment players can't fully agree on what one or more characters ought to be capable of.

 

In such cases, I think the dice can salvage a scene and still potentially create something people might enjoy reading.

 

Precisely what I mean when I say:

 

They should at most be supplemented by rolls (ie. success/failure is not decided by them), to simulate mistakes, circumstance, and the general chaos of combat.

 

Moreover there are also people who enjoy randomized results and upsets, rather than constantly assign victory to who logically should win, since surprises are interesting to many. Of course upsets shock because they're rare, so usually dice systems are also a way to ensure some level of consistency in results.

 

I should probably rephrase what I mean:

 

What I don't mean:

"NEVER USE DICE ROLLS THEY'RE HORRIBLE AND KILL MUH REALISM"

 

What I do mean:

"The dice should be used in dramatic situations or moments where players can't 100% agree, or when necessary."

 

RP is about action and consequence. Relying on, and resolving every action in combat with only a dice roll (no modifiers, etc.) places everything to chance rather than character choice and personality.

 

I think rolling/roll-systems are incredible for resolving disputes, and are entirely necessary in situations where you have large amounts of people with varying opinions on Fight RP/fighting in general.

 

The other thing to consider is, like in the example, the difference in artistic approach in "coreography" means that the two styles will eventually meet, and mediative dice roll may be the only way to comfortably allow both players the freedom necessary to enjoy the scene. I don't think the fight should necessarily be determined by ooc factors like who read more books on medieval fencig but the dice are also an ooc factor so that bears consideration as well.

 

In the world of Final Fantasy 14, there's a lot of ways for someone to express their character's personality through their fighting style, realism be damned. They're completely valid, and can make sense within the context of the game's magical setting.

 

I 100% agree that actions in fighting RP shouldn't be determined by OOC factors -- it's, after all, an IC affair about your character's decisions and their personality/personal philosophy.

 

RPing is pretty much founded on the suspension of disbelief. Sure, our setting is magical as all hell, with dragons, big beasties roaming around, and people who can set you on fire; but it all starts from our base experiences in the real world.

 

From there, we change things based on the context of the setting, and break the rules.

 

Magic breaks a lot of the rules, but the rules are there. Leverage and physics are still a thing, time flows at a similar rate, and a jab is still a fast punch. This provides perspective.

 

Take your Dongfang vs Feraud example. Sure, completely different characters from different genres, but that's absolutely reconciled in FFXIV. Dongfang's needlework can easily be justified through magic and if it's written with enough care and respect towards that base perspective (ie. the writer makes it clear that Dongfang is doing superhuman feats), it can be incredibly enjoyable! Even if you're the fencing-manual-reading player of Feraud, writing him getting his absolute ass handed to him.

 

Digressions aside, what I meant to say in my previous post is that any system of conflict resolution is valid, but work better depending on the type of players involved. Ultimately, people just want to have the fight happen, and for character development to happen.

[Verad]

Finally, one thing to consider is that if you try to RP fight without doing any meaningful research, you make your fights look less like this, and more like this.

 

I mean that's all well and good if you're the sort of person who values realism in combat, but it doesn't mean much for somebody who's trying to emulate 1938 Robin Hood, most of Kung Fu Hustle, or large portions of Final Fantasy cutscene fights. You can see why the latter in particular might be a desired end-goal in this game for some of the playerbase, right?

[Firefly]

Finally, one thing to consider is that if you try to RP fight without doing any meaningful research, you make your fights look less like this, and more like this.

 

I mean that's all well and good if you're the sort of person who values realism in combat, but it doesn't mean much for somebody who's trying to emulate 1938 Robin Hood, most of Kung Fu Hustle, or large portions of Final Fantasy cutscene fights. You can see why the latter in particular might be a desired end-goal in this game for some of the playerbase, right?

 

Yeah, I do! The cutscene fights are great, because they're an absolute spectacle; which is the point of those gifs.

 

If you look at those two gifs, you see the first being a very clinical, very direct approach that appeals to one type of audience, and in the second, you see a very flashy, spectacle-oriented approach.

 

My point is that when you go blow-by-blow/hyper-detail-oriented/omg-logic-wars, a lot of the personality of your character comes from their approach and their actions.

 

When you're RPing in a Highest-Roll = win scenario, the characterisation comes from the spectacle and the outcome of the fight itself. It's no longer about how the characters fight, but who wins. If you use a blow-by-blow approach in that scenario, the dice will sometimes (as they aren't influenced by anything) create a situation where both fighters are flailing around with no real gameplan or objective, which can be distracting. EDIT: I guess the best way I can fumble with this is that after the dice have been cast, the suspense is gone, if that makes sense?

 

I admit, it was all wrapped in a cheeky jab, but I just wanted an excuse to use that Anakin vs Obi-Wan gif.

[Diskwrite]

Finally, one thing to consider is that if you try to RP fight without doing any meaningful research, you make your fights look less like this, and more like this.

 

I mean that's all well and good if you're the sort of person who values realism in combat, but it doesn't mean much for somebody who's trying to emulate 1938 Robin Hood, most of Kung Fu Hustle, or large portions of Final Fantasy cutscene fights. You can see why the latter in particular might be a desired end-goal in this game for some of the playerbase, right?

 

Yeah, I do! The cutscene fights are great, because they're an absolute spectacle; which is the point of those gifs.

 

If you look at those two gifs, you see the first being a very clinical, very direct approach that appeals to one type of audience, and in the second, you see a very flashy, spectacle-oriented approach.

 

My point is that when you go blow-by-blow/hyper-detail-oriented/omg-logic-wars, a lot of the personality of your character comes from their approach and their actions.

 

When you're RPing in a Highest-Roll = win scenario, the characterisation comes from the spectacle and the outcome of the fight itself. It's no longer about how the characters fight, but who wins. If you use a blow-by-blow approach in that scenario, the dice will sometimes (as they aren't influenced by anything) create a situation where both fighters are flailing around with no real gameplan or objective, which can be distracting. EDIT: I guess the best way I can fumble with this is that after the dice have been cast, the suspense is gone, if that makes sense?

 

I admit, it was all wrapped in a cheeky jab, but I just wanted an excuse to use that Anakin vs Obi-Wan gif.

 

Your example is interesting to me because I've watched the fight scenes in, say, A Phantom Menace, with some of my sword nerd friends, and they've talked at length about how great and realistic the fight choreography was.

 

But, that's trivial and distracting from your point.

 

You seem to be conflating two things: 1) What you define as realism in fight RP, and 2) The freeform fighting RP style you prefer. And this is set opposed to another conflation: A) Fight RP that you see as more spectacle and less realism, and B) Settling the outcome of an RP fight with rolls.

 

You've defined these conflations based on what you perceive as their like purpose. For the first, the purpose is to go into a hyper-detailed play by play and lose yourself in the detailed mechanics of the fight. The second, enjoying a bombastic display where you roll, handwave things, and don't care about the nitty gritty.

 

But these things don't necessarily have to be combined.

 

Back in my ye olde freeform fighting RP days, I got into ridiculous logic battles in which we dodged for days and used tactics not true to anatomy or fighting form at all. But we did them anyway because they'd logic us to victory! Realism was not the point, it was trying to win.

 

Today, I focus on realism more. But, I haven't engaged in freeform fighting RP in over a decade. Truth be told, I don't enjoy drawn out fighting RP anymore. I used to do it a whole lot and nowadays I'm bored of it. If a roll helps adjudicate the result and speeds thing along (instead of letting things progress into a half-hour long dodge fest like the last freeform fighting RP I watched), then frankly I'm all for it.

 

It's still very possible to favor realism with rolls, and sometimes it can be a fun narrative challenge to figure out how to explain things from a given random result. It may not be super detailed, but a realistic fight can still be achieved.

 

I think of it in a similar way to a R-rated sex scene versus an explicit one. The sex can still be interesting and realistic even if you don't get down to the nitty gritty detail. (And in fact, depending on your preferences and narrative purposes, you might not want to do the explicit scene at all.)

 

One notable thing about how you described fighting RP: I've seen people who prefer RPing out sex scenes in detail make the same argument- through RPing it out in detail you see more about the characters and how they interact with each other than you might otherwise.

 

I think that's a fine notion, and I've observed similar, but that doesn't make one method better or more realistic than the other. Having a preference- whatever you may prefer- is fine.