[Discussion] 'That's offensive!'

[Dravus]

This is something I've been meaning to discuss for a while now, though I figured now is as good a time as any to spark up yet another debate. First things first, though, let me clear something up: this isn't a thread aimed to excuse genuinely offensive behaviour or commentary that far exceeds anything shown in the game itself. This is a thread intended to try and understand why quite a few players feel offended by the occasional use of mature language in chat channels within a game that makes liberal use of phrases along the lines of 'shite' 'bastard' and 'dead whore's crotch'.

 

I suspect I'm not alone in this, but I've been waiting for an MMO that took itself reasonably seriously and wasn't afraid to touch upon mature themes and the implications that surround them. I'm sure everyone will agree that FFXIV pulls that off rather well, both in terms of mature language and some of the implications that other games desperately shy away from. 

 

...and yet despite all that I'm still seeing people kick up a fuss when players crack a crude joke or lace their discussion with a bit of mature language. Again, I'm not talking about the extreme stuff here, I'm referring to the sort of language that is present in the game itself. It honestly baffles me - on one hand these players are 'offended' by crude jokes and  mature language and yet they're paying a subscription fee to play a game that is literally full of them. 

 

Let's not forget that technically every player should be of or above the age plastered on the game's cover so the argument of 'think of teh children' loses much of it's weight. 

 

So I'm curious to see what other people think of this and decided to make this thread. I'm personally very fond of the gritty tone of the game and it's actually one of my favourite aspects.

[K'dath]

It's just not to some people's taste. They have no control over quest text or even cut scene dialogue. They also don't have to read or listen to it if it offends them. But in a conversation with another person they're able to interject their opinions and request the other person exert some control over their behavior.

 

I, personally, try not to use obscene language just because I think it is a habit that begets laziness. That's in general conversational situations though and am not above saying some truly grotesque things in good company...

 

Though the other day in one of my linkshells, someone got highly offended I used the term 'fabulous' to describe one of the rather feminine NPCs. I was a little disheartened they took so much offense to what was suppose to be a jest in good fun.

[Alothia]

I think that there is a way to address being offended, and a way not to. If you find something offensive, you can calmly ask the other people to stop because it makes you uncomfortable. And that's in an OOC situation, I think.

 

If it is IC and you are offended, then I think that you need to reevaluate your game choices. Eorzea isn't a fairytale land. There are things that happen that are dark and gritty, as it should be. People in Eorzea kill, have sex, talk about those things...talk about them in public even. I don't think that it needs to be hidden. There are NPCs that talk about those things. There is a warning label on the box. I agree with you completely, that sometimes people need to take a step back and realize what it is that they are playing.

 

Also, just because someone is involved with something ICly does NOT mean that they hold those same beliefs OOCly. I know that there have been numerous times when people will look at a character and pass judgement on the player. Trust me, not all players are their characters...we shouldn't be our characters.

 

Let's all take a step back and enjoy RP for what it is. If you don't agree with someone's story or character, no one is forcing you to RP with that character. You can find another group of people to RP with and no one is going to think any less of you. But don't go forcing your beliefs on others because it doesn't coincide. There's enough room on the RP servers for all types of characters and RPers without everyone creating a veritable shitstorm of drama over silly things.

 

Just my 2 gil.

[Gideon Aryeh]

Communication is key bottom line, especially while within the large community based linkpearls. You have to be able to talk to each other and at least be able to give people the benefit of the doubt and the respect of at least addressing the problem together privately before anything else. Listen I more than understand people being sensitive to things. Also take into the fact that your level of sensitivity may not be the level of sensitivity that others have, and I mean as far as things like cursing, or even small groups within a chat channel glomping each other. Honestly I don't pay mind to these things as I find them to be playful and silly, and as far as cursing well I won't tolerate that no matter what the situation. Thoughts can be expressed without having to refer to foul language. Ultimately no matter what side you are on the key in the most social of all games is communication, communication, communication. Groups of adults should be able to talk to each other first before relying on a mod like myself to settle a problem. Curse these new mmos, old men like me remember a time when you were forced to talk to each other in mmos because well you couldn't beat the game if you didn't have people to cooperate with.

 

If there is something that you have an issue with within reason then please take the time to pull the other party aside and have a conversation with them, and then if at that point if they can not at least give you the benefit of the doubt and respect what you are saying even if they don't agree with it then make it easier for all who are not part of the issue by just simply blacklisting each other. Linkshells with like minded people are also another thing to make use of as there have been Christian, LGBT and hell even ERP guilds for years. Lets just not try to be so sensitive to the point of absurdity or resort making assumptions. At the end of the day everyone wants the same thing and by assuming you split the community. Not to mention look at it like this, many of us don't like cliques, think about whether or not you are making a clique yourself if you do decide to get away from something you don't care for, there is a lot of irony usually in such situations. Lets give our fellow gamers a bit more respect than that. Communication should always be the first form of action no matter what.

 

My personal stance on things? Live and let live, within reason on a public channel.

[Gray]

It's really not complicated, as I see it.  There are three main reasons.

 

The first reason is some people are just not comfortable with it.  I won't go into depth as to why, as that would turn this into a psychology discussion, but that's it in it's most blunt form.  There are many more detailed reasons that would fall under this one.

 

The second reason...Many people are just tight-assed and hyper-sensitive, or sticks in the mud.  Again, there are many more detailed reasons that would fall under this one, but that would turn it into a psychology discussion.  So again, in it's most blunt form.

 

The third, some people have been soured on it from previous games where it's always too much, which, in itself, can bring about either, or both of the first two reasons, and yet at the same time, it's still its own reason.

 

I had a lot more typed up but...I decided it would be better to not post it...

[Asyria]

Something being offensive is all in the eye of the beholder.

 

I'm not offended by simple words such as those found in NPC dialog, whether it's them or players speaking them. but I am offended when people label me with wrong intentions and act like I was out to purposefully offend others. I am offended when people treat me like I was some jerk. I am offended when the first one who say "you're offensive" is automatically the victim even when they're just being stuck-up and I feel bullied when someone calls me offensive and everyone else take their side against me because the "offensive" label was thrown out.

 

Not that I care much... but it's on topic and I believe it's worth pointing out as I'm sure I'm not the only one like this.

 

Note: Words don't offend me... but I AM sensitive about certain topics. However, rather than ask people to stop talking, I simply stop reading. I feel asking people to stop discussing something is egotistical and goes against freedom of speech... unless a majority is uneasy with the talk of a few, then it's simply more practical for the few to take their conversation elsewhere.

[FreelanceWizard]

IC is IC, so in general people shouldn't take that personally. If my character curses like a drunken sailor ("Arr! Blimey!" ), that's my character -- it's not representative of me, the player. Likewise, characters can do some pretty dark things. The response to these IC actions should generally be IC. Obviously, some exceptions apply (metagaming, particularly). When in doubt, a quick OOC /tell of "Sorry for my character being a jerk!" can be very helpful.

 

However, I get the feeling this is about OOC. If you want to have a friendly, welcoming environment OOC, I would gently suggest that casually lacing your text with profanity isn't the way to do it. It doesn't generate a feeling of camaraderie for newcomers. Instead, it's off-putting and strange, and tends to recall Internet trolls of days past and communities that like to shout down outsiders. Also, in text, it can come off much more viciously than intended. The reason some try to be extra polite and civil on forums and in channels has a lot to do with the way tone can be easily misread. By being nice in tone (which includes checking one's profanity, even if it seems warranted), you don't have to worry about a heated discussion turning fiery because of misinterpreted tone.

[Dravus]

I have nothing but sympathy for people who are deliberately targeted and assaulted with foul language or thinly veiled insults. They're well within their right to be offended when that happens. Though that's not really the sort of angle this thread is aimed at - I'm more referring to the players who claim to be 'offended' by someone else having their character say 'shite' or one of the numerous other phrases that can be labelled as mature language that are already used frequently in the game itself.

 

I've seen a similar scenario play out when that sort of language is used OOC as part of a friendly discussion. The thing is, this isn't WoW: the game isn't rated as suitable for minors, it's rated for a specific target audience that is expected to be of a particular age and maturity. I find it somewhat troubling that my conversations can readily be stifled because one or two players decide that they're offended when I exclaim 'Seven Hells!' IC or 'Bloody Hell!' OOC.

 

This often leads to appeasement, since channel moderators are often indoctrinated into trying to keep the peace by asking everyone to tone things down. I can certainly understand where they're coming from, but in cases where the mature language isn't directed at another player and isn't as excessive as the 'F-word' being dropped into every other sentence I believe some players need to reconsider the sort of game they've invested in.

[K'dath]

I have nothing but sympathy for people who are deliberately targeted and assaulted with foul language or thinly veiled insults. They're well within their right to be offended when that happens. Though that's not really the sort of angle this thread is aimed at - I'm more referring to the players who claim to be 'offended' by someone else having their character say 'shite' or one of the numerous other phrases that can be labelled as mature language that are already used frequently in the game itself.

 

I've seen a similar scenario play out when that sort of language is used OOC as part of a friendly discussion. The thing is, this isn't WoW: the game isn't rated as suitable for minors, it's rated for a specific target audience that is expected to be of a particular age and maturity. I find it somewhat troubling that my conversations can readily be stifled because one or two players decide that they're offended when I exclaim 'Seven Hells!' IC or 'Bloody Hell!' OOC.

 

This often leads to appeasement, since channel moderators are often indoctrinated into trying to keep the peace by asking everyone to tone things down. I can certainly understand where they're coming from, but in cases where the mature language isn't directed at another player and isn't as excessive as the 'F-word' being dropped into every other sentence I believe some players need to reconsider the sort of game they've invested in.

 

I completely agree with you. I hope my tone before had didn't present itself as argumentative, I was just trying to offer up my assumptions as to the 'why' factor. I do think it's silly for people to get their knickers in a twist over things that are a part of the theme of the game. It's almost akin to being offended that people with swords kill monsters. But all in all swearing, unlike killing things, isn't an integral part of enjoyment of the game, and so someone is going to complain about it.

 

As far as ratings go and comparing it to WoW however...

 

...they're approximately the same page.

(as far as Americans are concerned)

[Dravus]

I have nothing but sympathy for people who are deliberately targeted and assaulted with foul language or thinly veiled insults. They're well within their right to be offended when that happens. Though that's not really the sort of angle this thread is aimed at - I'm more referring to the players who claim to be 'offended' by someone else having their character say 'shite' or one of the numerous other phrases that can be labelled as mature language that are already used frequently in the game itself.

 

I've seen a similar scenario play out when that sort of language is used OOC as part of a friendly discussion. The thing is, this isn't WoW: the game isn't rated as suitable for minors, it's rated for a specific target audience that is expected to be of a particular age and maturity. I find it somewhat troubling that my conversations can readily be stifled because one or two players decide that they're offended when I exclaim 'Seven Hells!' IC or 'Bloody Hell!' OOC.

 

This often leads to appeasement, since channel moderators are often indoctrinated into trying to keep the peace by asking everyone to tone things down. I can certainly understand where they're coming from, but in cases where the mature language isn't directed at another player and isn't as excessive as the 'F-word' being dropped into every other sentence I believe some players need to reconsider the sort of game they've invested in.

 

I completely agree with you. I hope my tone before had didn't present itself as argumentative, I was just trying to offer up my assumptions as to the 'why' factor. I do think it's silly for people to get their knickers in a twist over things that are a part of the theme of the game. It's almost akin to being offended that people with swords kill monsters. But all in all swearing, unlike killing things, isn't an integral part of enjoyment of the game, and so someone is going to complain about it.

 

As far as ratings go and comparing it to WoW however...

 

...they're approximately the same page.

(as far as Americans are concerned)

 

Oh, don't worry - I didn't take your tone as being argumentative! I love indulging in a good debate and have enjoyed our commentary in various recent threads. It's also interesting that the American rating is 'Teen' - what exactly does that encompass? Here in the UK the game is rated as suitable for ages 16 and over, though the nature of games means a lot of people will play them even when under the recommended age.

[FreelanceWizard]

If people are getting OOCly offended by "Seven Hells!" IC, they don't need to be around L'yhta when she's angry or frustrated. Being Lominsan, she regularly drops phrases like "Nophica's tits!" and "Thal's bloody balls!" when she's annoyed. IC is IC, IC is not OOC, and ICA = ICC; I'm prepared to receive any IC consequences someone might want to throw her way for her "colorful" language. I've yet to run into anyone who took offense OOC at her IC language. I suspect my response to someone who was would be to respectfully bow out of the scene.

 

On the OOC side of the house, I personally feel it's a matter of civility and tone, and I avoid the use of profanity on that basis. The maturity of the players has nothing to do with it; it's entirely a function of how tone communicates poorly in text, and a poorly timed profanity can cause an entirely unintended explosion of unhappiness. That's just how I roll, though.

 

When I put on my "channel mod" hat, my primary objective is to keep things civil. So, I only step in when things start to get heated -- and, yes, seeing profanity pop up is a flag for me that things might be getting too hot and could warrant a few soothing words. I much prefer the "velvet glove" approach to the "mailed fist;" I don't think I've ever muted or kicked a person from a channel in like... ever. I'd rather calm things down with some careful words than whip out the ban-hammer. That said, "bloody hell" in an OOC channel? Pft, that doesn't even land on my radar.

[K'dath]

Oh, don't worry - I didn't take your tone as being argumentative! I love indulging in a good debate and have enjoyed our commentary in various recent threads. It's also interesting that the American rating is 'Teen' - what exactly does that encompass? Here in the UK the game is rated as suitable for ages 16 and over, though the nature of games means a lot of people will play them even when under the recommended age.

 

Well, I always have to be sure. I have this terrible habit of coming across as combative. If I had a gil for every time I was told to 'stop arguing' when I wasn't even aware what I'd said could have been taken for argumentative, I would be able to buy myself a lot of Hard Mode Primal carries :lol:

 

As for 'Teen' rating, it means anyone 13+ in theory, but more like anyone 9+ in execution. Without trying to make a sweeping generalization of an entire country of peoples, Americans just don't care about what is 'age appropriate' content for their kids. Unless it involves breasts.

[Aeslyn Grey]

Above it was mentioned that FFXIV is for 16 and over. I was curious because I thought it was 13 and over. Looking it up it seems to be that the UK rating is PEGI 16, and the US is ESRB Teen 13, someone correct me if this isn't right. Sorry if this is a little off topic, I was just interested and was surprised at the difference in ratings.

 

Personally I don't get offended when people swear in chat, it isn't part of my normal vocab to do it in everyday speaking in RL, so I don't tend to use it in game chat, but it doesn't bother me when others do. There are some words I would be offended by, and some people just haven't learned to use their 'filter' as to what is appropriate, but I would just ignore it. I probably wouldn't choose to be close friends with someone who swears in every other sentence though because it would just irritate me eventually. What I find much more irritating is baby talk and really silly snuggle bunny talk, but again, I just ignore it.

[DAISHI]

Well that's what the language filter is for.

[Dravus]

Oh, don't worry - I didn't take your tone as being argumentative! I love indulging in a good debate and have enjoyed our commentary in various recent threads. It's also interesting that the American rating is 'Teen' - what exactly does that encompass? Here in the UK the game is rated as suitable for ages 16 and over, though the nature of games means a lot of people will play them even when under the recommended age.

 

Well, I always have to be sure. I have this terrible habit of coming across as combative. If I had a gil for every time I was told to 'stop arguing' when I wasn't even aware what I'd said could have been taken for argumentative, I would be able to buy myself a lot of Hard Mode Primal carries :lol:

 

As for 'Teen' rating, it means anyone 13+ in theory, but more like anyone 9+ in execution. Without trying to make a sweeping generalization of an entire country of peoples, Americans just don't care about what is 'age appropriate' content for their kids. Unless it involves breasts.

 

Oh, I got the same treatment back when I played WoW. I tend to post a lot - since it's a great way to pass the time whilst waiting in a dungeon queue - and the amount of people who take disagreements as a personal attack is unbelievable at times!

[LandStander]

While I don't care what someone is doing OOC because you can speak with them about it. If this is going on IC, then suck it up. You come across all sorts of people in the world around you and RP shouldn't be any different. I play a brute of a character who belches, checks herself for body odor, vomits, curses, and has a bit of sexually charged language. I don't go off the deep end with it, but its there and will pop up occasionally, that is just who she is. And as someone mentioned earlier, there is a profanity filter that is automatically checked for you when you first start.

 

I had someone say once that they didn't like cursing because they didn't want their children reading it. If your child can read I am sure they have heard a curse word or two or three. Not to mention the massive exposure they get in our violent and sexually charged culture. They will likely learn all about this stuff, and more racey topics, from friends at school, and being concerned about them stumbling across the chat log on your screen should really be the last of your worries.

[LiadansWhisper]

This is something I've been meaning to discuss for a while now, though I figured now is as good a time as any to spark up yet another debate. First things first, though, let me clear something up: this isn't a thread aimed to excuse genuinely offensive behaviour or commentary that far exceeds anything shown in the game itself. This is a thread intended to try and understand why quite a few players feel offended by the occasional use of mature language in chat channels within a game that makes liberal use of phrases along the lines of 'shite' 'bastard' and 'dead whore's crotch'.

 

I suspect I'm not alone in this, but I've been waiting for an MMO that took itself reasonably seriously and wasn't afraid to touch upon mature themes and the implications that surround them. I'm sure everyone will agree that FFXIV pulls that off rather well, both in terms of mature language and some of the implications that other games desperately shy away from. 

 

...and yet despite all that I'm still seeing people kick up a fuss when players crack a crude joke or lace their discussion with a bit of mature language. Again, I'm not talking about the extreme stuff here, I'm referring to the sort of language that is present in the game itself. It honestly baffles me - on one hand these players are 'offended' by crude jokes and  mature language and yet they're paying a subscription fee to play a game that is literally full of them. 

 

Let's not forget that technically every player should be of or above the age plastered on the game's cover so the argument of 'think of teh children' loses much of it's weight. 

 

So I'm curious to see what other people think of this and decided to make this thread. I'm personally very fond of the gritty tone of the game and it's actually one of my favourite aspects.

 

Outside of ageplay (which is just...completely on the other side of the continent in terms of offense/wrong/omgwtfbbq), I don't think that people should OOCly get offended by In-Character subject matter.  It's totally okay for characters themselves to get offended and upset, but for a player to get offended by what was said in RP is a bit silly.

 

As far as OOC goes, if you don't like the language, turn your profanity filter on.

 

Edited to Add: A special note, however: If a player is feeling uncomfortable with the way a scene is going in-character, they should speak up and either ask the other parties to tone it down a bit, or fade the situation to black. For instance, I don't have a stomach for torture. I just can't stand it. I don't want to see it. I don't want to participate in it. So I've always either avoided getting caught up in it, or just faded it to black because it upsets me on a personal level.

[Swift Nightclaw]

Something being offensive is all in the eye of the beholder.

 

My favorite take on it:

 

"Being offended is subjective. It has everything to do with you as an individual, or a collective, or a group, or a society, or a community, your moral conditioning, your religious beliefs. What offends me may not offend you.  I'm offended when I see boy bands.  It's a valid offense. They're corporate shills posing as musicians to further a modeling career and frankly...I'm disgusted."

 

Great stand up from comedian Steve Hughes.

 

[sanguineFenrir]

As someone who tends to have quite the sailor's mouth in real life (but who never tends to use profanity in text), the use of profanity by NPC's does not bother me, and I sometimes find the British-esque dialect interesting.

 

ICly, Kevaraan's also not the type to swear and has only done so once or twice, I think. Usually, other characters' profanity doesn't bother him, but if it's sexually charged and/or dropped with great frequency, he might roll his eyes or otherwise indicate annoyance. In the worst cases, he might leave, since he's not likely to get along with those types of characters anyway--but he'll never be the "nanny sort" who goes around reprimanding people for language.

 

I generally have no issue with profanity, or violence/gore/torture/what have you, but it gets a little ironic because what DOES bother me is sexual or hedonistic topics. Going into the "why" would turn this into a psychological post, but I just can't agree with either of those behaviors. I can handle the quips by NPCs because SE doesn't overuse them, but that's about it.

 

Out of 30+ characters I have in my broader universe(s), I think only two to four drink or smoke, and most are asexual outside of romance (and if they reasonably shouldn't be, any more hedonistic attraction never comes up in the text.) It's just not something I prefer to write about or bear witness to in RP, and I hardly know how to react to it as is. The same principle, although not as severe, applies to drinking.

 

Kevaraan already dislikes a few characters because of their tendency toward this behavior--but that is, as others have stated, an IC thing. OOCly, I'm capable of putting up with it, but if, for example, a character is fetishistic, I'm probably going to just confide to the player that I can't reasonably be comfortable with the RP for OOC reasons.

 

I'm also the type of person to get quietly annoyed by things said in chat--in the interest of keeping the peace, I refuse to participate in debates (odd, given this topic, but this is likely my sole post in it). For my guild's IC and OOC channels, if a debate over a topic that I'm sensitive to starts up, I will just announce quietly and without detail that I'm turning the chat off, so people know how to reach me. The same thing goes for discussion of my guild's IC plot in the IC channel, which I want little to no part of. Besides enforcing an "out of sight, out of mind" policy given that I'm poor at tuning things out, this also limits chat scroll, as debates tend to involve long posts that clutter up the tiny chat box.

 

Probably the last thing that annoys me is something Rock Sandbourne brought up, which is the use of "glomping" and other silly or memetic things in OOC chat. I understand that some people like silliness, but I find that type of speak to be too prevalent in the RP community, and I'm not a big fan of "talking for the sake of it" and don't know how to react anyway. I am in two linkshells that I always keep turned off unless I actually need their help because of this, and sometimes that gets swallowed up in the banter. This is why my "writers' guild" LS has an explicit ban of this sort of silly speech, because I don't want it clogging up what is rightfully a discussion channel.

[Chisae]

Offensive is in the eye of the Beholder, but some Beholders are raised with such a thin skin that just saying hello to them is sexual harassment. lol

 

Whenever someone whines and moans about sex or adult themes in this game (generated by the players), I want to take them on the Eorzea Sex Tour... show them all the prostitutes and flirting and propositioning that the npc's have going on. I can't really fault the players (not that I would anyway) for using coarse language and having adult themes when the game has them out on display in plain sight.

[cuideag]

Communication is key bottom line, especially while within the large community based linkpearls. You have to be able to talk to each other and at least be able to give people the benefit of the doubt and the respect of at least addressing the problem together privately before anything else. ... Communication should always be the first form of action no matter what.

 

My personal stance on things? Live and let live, within reason on a public channel.

 

My thoughts exactly. 

 

The last thing I would hope anyone would do is harass another player because they said something offensive or were offended in some way by someone else. It will happen but we can all be responsible and respectful about how we respond to it.

 

 

 

[ArmachiA]

Offensive is in the eye of the Beholder, but some Beholders are raised with such a thin skin that just saying hello to them is sexual harassment. lol

 

Whenever someone whines and moans about sex or adult themes in this game (generated by the players), I want to take them on the Eorzea Sex Tour... show them all the prostitutes and flirting and propositioning that the npc's have going on. I can't really fault the players (not that I would anyway) for using coarse language and having adult themes when the game has them out on display in plain sight.

 

 

 

This game is filthy.

 

(It's hilarious)

[Chisae]

Bwahaha!! I knew those three were doing it together! I just never stuck around long enough to verify it.

[K'nahli]

This topic is actually one that concerned me slightly. I have a character who is an elitist jerk who would have no problem using vulgar terms. The only thing is that OOCly I would have problems using those terms and can see myself avoiding it in the future. Its not as if I shy away from swearing myself(though I try not to do it), but I'd worry that I may offend others, particularly if my character decided to be particularly vulgar in attempts to offend or provoke someone else. In addition to that, I'd be even more reluctant to do so around my friend whom I regularly RP with... for reasons that may sound silly, so lets just say that I would want to avoid being excessive or graphic in said person's presence even more so.

 

Its not that I find swearing to be necessary to a character, but I do find it shows a lot about their personality and I don't like hiding personality traits or making characters less realistic ;;

[Chisae]

K'nali, I don't think were talking about using excessive vulgarity (though that might be the case), but rather lore-appropriate terms and topics, shite, bugger (a slang term for having sex last I checked), and so on.

 

I think I have heard NPCs use "fuck" before, but I cant recall. The game lightly peppers dialogue with vulgarity where appropriate to set the tone for certain areas or stories; LimLom being the most notable.

 

I could see people being whiny and offended if the game was sanitized like some other MMOs that have their heads in the sand and act like the world is Hello Kitty lol, but it's not. It's gritty. Even the 1.0 Uldah intro had a brief scene on your way into the parade where a guy was hitting up a prostitute... sadly they got rid of that, I thought Uldah's intro was the best of the three.

 

Also, my sunkitty, K'anika is a bitch... snarky and abrasive, but I tend to go light on the profanity, and just use the in-game terms where appropriate.