You're Not Writing A Novel

[DAISHI]

Feel free to do this in your RP, but don't expect to be acknowledge if you do.

 

If you go into a place and describe your thoughts, I, as a character, cannot acknowledge having read what you just emoted. Because it was in your head. If you emote that you are distracted by fumbling about, being clumsy, looking lost, that's something I as a character can observe and respond to.

 

When you emote that you're feeling lost, I can't acknowledge it because it's internal to you.

[IncubusManatee]

Feel free to do this in your RP, but don't expect to be acknowledge if you do.

 

If you go into a place and describe your thoughts, I, as a character, cannot acknowledge having read what you just emoted. Because it was in your head. If you emote that you are distracted by fumbling about, being clumsy, looking lost, that's something I as a character can observe and respond to.

 

When you emote that you're feeling lost, I can't acknowledge it because it's internal to you.

 

Isn't this just common sense?

[K'nahli]

Did you have a bad experience with someone who expected you to be aware of their thoughts?

[FreelanceWizard]

When you emote that you're feeling lost, I can't acknowledge it because it's internal to you.

 

Isn't this just common sense?

 

Well... there's a variety of points of view on this, I've found.

 

Personally, I don't emote anything about my character's internal state unless it would be obvious to an onlooker from her actual actions ("L'yhta's tail rises, peeking out from behind her shoulder in interest"); I prefer to show, not tell, as much as possible. Since my character's not a mind-reader, like DAISHI, I also don't respond to people's emotes of internal state unless, again, it'd be obvious to my not especially socially perceptive character.

 

Throwing out thoughts and beliefs that characters aren't privy to doesn't really help RP very much, IMO, because they can't be responded to ICly without metagaming. It can come off as needless emote showboating or even trollish if your inner monologue is disparaging of another character, as they can't respond to it ICly and just have to "take it." If you need to let a person in on what's going on with your character to help with RP, an OOC tell is probably the better way to do it as there's no question of etiquette at that point.

[Gray]

Agreed.  I am always pretty iffy when people do this, because I just don't know if they're doing it as an "in".  I try not to act on internal feelings or thoughts like that, but if I know it's meant to grab people, I may try to work with it in -some- way.

 

The aspect of this that bothers me is there's usually things tacked on that are insulting to a person, or people around them.  I have all too often seen people emote thinking and such, that is designed to let everyone know how unimportant they consider another character.  ICly, we can't react to this, but it has displayed to all present that so and so thinks so and so is stupid, or ugly, or whatever.

 

Personally, when I emote something along the lines of a thought or a feeling, I will include 2 key elements.  The first is for the player behind the character, so that -they- can become interested if they wish.  The second is a hook for the character themself to act on, if the player decides to do so.  Its just safer.  There's really more to it, but yea, with so many different people with different styles, it's better to play it safe.  Something visual, audible, etc that the character could have picked up.  For example, the one you used about being lost.

 

*Bob enters the room, feeling lost, and approaches the counter, ringing the bell to get the shopkeeps attention.*

 

This is the "wrong" way, right?  Yes and no.  It is, because you're not not giving anyone a hook, and you're not being specific enough.  Your character is -feeling- lost, but where does it go from there?  How much, if any, is he showing that outwardly?  If someone is paying attention, it's not impossible that they could notice that he's feeling lost, even if you didn't emote it specifically.  People show what they're feeling.  But by not being specific, we don't know if you meant for there to be an "in" or not.  So while it may not necessarily be "wrong", it's a rather poor way to do it.

 

*Bob enters the room, clearly appearing uneasy.  He looks around the room, his head moving from one corner to the other, eyes darting about.  It's fairly clear that he is unfamiliar with the area.  He looks back ahead, eyes fixed on the counter, and moves swiftly to it, ringing the bell.*

 

Same character, same scenario.  Bob is still feeling lost, but this time, we know for sure he has some sort of issue that anyone present can pick up, and react to.  Much better way to do it, in my opinion.

 

Oh, I forgot to put this above, so I'll tack it on here.  Too often, I see people -reacting- on things they couldn't realistically react to, as if every character is so perceptive, and their senses are so finely honed...  It's silly.

[IncubusManatee]

When you emote that you're feeling lost, I can't acknowledge it because it's internal to you.

 

Isn't this just common sense?

 

Well... there's a variety of points of view on this, I've found.

 

Personally, I don't emote anything about my character's internal state unless it would be obvious to an onlooker from her actual actions ("L'yhta's tail rises, peeking out from behind her shoulder in interest"); I prefer to show, not tell, as much as possible. Since my character's not a mind-reader, like DAISHI, I also don't respond to people's emotes of internal state unless, again, it'd be obvious to my not especially socially perceptive character.

 

Throwing out thoughts and beliefs that characters aren't privy to doesn't really help RP very much, IMO, because they can't be responded to ICly without metagaming. It can come off as needless emote showboating or even trollish if your inner monologue is disparaging of another character, as they can't respond to it ICly and just have to "take it." If you need to let a person in on what's going on with your character to help with RP, an OOC tell is probably the better way to do it as there's no question of etiquette at that point.

 

I can understand this point of view, but it can be used for more then needless "Showboating", or inner monologue to insult someones character. 

 

To be honest, I use internal thoughts/feelings/emotes as a means to get people to laugh OOCly, not as a means for them to work off of-but to lighten the mood of things. Since I am usually involved with a lot of "Dark" or "Grim" RP in the past, it's part of who I am as a writer and RP'er to add in things that would offset the perpetual negativity that can swirl into an endless black pool and lead to people being rather unhappy (Which has occured more then once). 

 

Otherwise I don't let people in on my characters thoughts, I explain emotions or facial expressions. 

 

Now I can understand someones frustration (player A) if the person in question (player B) is using aforementioned "Bad" way's of internal dialogue/thoughts. That I can understand. 

 

Still it's common sense to be respectful of the other player to RP where they can be apart-rather then watching someone else write a small book for them to look over.

[DAISHI]

The context for this is several people I've been around that RP their internal thoughts and I'm not sure if they understand that I can't react to those. This just happened in the last hour in fact. The post is just a sort of public statement for RPers. If you're RPing internal thoughts, others around you won't necessarily react to you or your mood in the way you want them to unless you actually act it out rather than emote everything as an internalization. Which has previously led to some asking why others seem to be ignoring what they're RPing.

---

When you emote that you're feeling lost, I can't acknowledge it because it's internal to you.

 

Isn't this just common sense?

 

Well... there's a variety of points of view on this, I've found.

 

Personally, I don't emote anything about my character's internal state unless it would be obvious to an onlooker from her actual actions ("L'yhta's tail rises, peeking out from behind her shoulder in interest"); I prefer to show, not tell, as much as possible. Since my character's not a mind-reader, like DAISHI, I also don't respond to people's emotes of internal state unless, again, it'd be obvious to my not especially socially perceptive character.

 

Throwing out thoughts and beliefs that characters aren't privy to doesn't really help RP very much, IMO, because they can't be responded to ICly without metagaming. It can come off as needless emote showboating or even trollish if your inner monologue is disparaging of another character, as they can't respond to it ICly and just have to "take it." If you need to let a person in on what's going on with your character to help with RP, an OOC tell is probably the better way to do it as there's no question of etiquette at that point.

Glad you mentioned metagaming, that's one of the big principles of the hting.

[FreelanceWizard]

To be honest, I use internal thoughts/feelings/emotes as a means to get people to laugh OOCly, not as a means for them to work off of-but to lighten the mood of things. Since I am usually involved with a lot of "Dark" or "Grim" RP in the past, it's part of who I am as a writer and RP'er to add in things that would offset the perpetual negativity that can swirl into an endless black pool and lead to people being rather unhappy (Which has occured more then once). 

 

That's a great point and a good use for those internal monologue emotes, I think. As long as it's done tastefully and carefully with no expectation of an IC response, I can see how that could add to a scene from an OOC standpoint.

[Katanyae]

Feel free to do this in your RP, but don't expect to be acknowledge if you do.

 

If you go into a place and describe your thoughts, I, as a character, cannot acknowledge having read what you just emoted. Because it was in your head. If you emote that you are distracted by fumbling about, being clumsy, looking lost, that's something I as a character can observe and respond to.

 

When you emote that you're feeling lost, I can't acknowledge it because it's internal to you.

 

I'm hesitant to reply to this. Because you seem to have the imaginary "RP Rulebook" out. But I will anyway.

 

I have never had an issue with it. If someone emotes feeling lost, I assume that they put it there to be noticed. So I can react by acting on intuition.

 

When people on the street walk by, I can gather which one looks lost or might be FEELING lost. It's not because I can read their minds, but it's because I can observe behavior and feel empathy. Same applies to my character, only there is a different method of delivery. 

 

If people are having inner monologue about themselves, however, chances are I won't rp with them. Unless it's in a forum setting in which case I enjoy it greatly.

 

So rephrasing your opening statement to "Feel free to do this in your RP, however there are some who will ignore you" might be more appropriate than speaking for all RPers everywhere.

 

2 gil.

[Faye]

...and why exactly do you believe these details are being added with the expectation for you to respond to them? That type of magic mindreading would be godmodding/metagaming. Rest assured, I'm sure the other RPer is not expecting your character to reply. As Katanyae mentioned, there is no "RP Rulebook," and sometimes you can sense/see how another person is feeling.

 

If someone mentions their character's inner thoughts/feelings, it's not necessarily so your character can notice. It's more often because the other RPer wished to share those details with you--the RPer, not your character. I usually find it enjoyable to know things about another person's character that aren't transparent, that my character doesn't realize. It's dramatic irony.

 

 

While you may not like it, there's really nothing wrong with it, so long as you have enough self-control and awareness to stop yourself from metagaming. The only way I see this as a downside is if someone's "inner monologue" goes on and on for paragraphs, or if the "inner monologue" is almost the entirety of the post, thus giving you no action or dialogue to respond to (in which case, the person probably doesn't know what to write, so they're just BSing about their character's thoughts).

 

In a novel, the main character's thoughts and feelings are not given because other characters in the story will respond to them. They're given so that you, the reader, may feel closer to the character and understand more about him or her. You may not be writing a novel in RP, but the same logic still stands, which sort of throws the "you're not writing a novel" argument out the window in this case.

 

TL;DR: I don't think most people are doing this in hopes of being "acknowledged" to begin with.

[K'dath]

As said above, show, don't tell.

 

That's not just good RP, it's good writing. If you tell me something is the way it is, I'll just have to take your word for it, and it comes off as you being an undependable narrator. If you show me, however, I'm more inclined to believe what you're telling me.

 

There's substance to back up the claim. The more tangible you make what you're trying to describe the more I'll buy into it as a reader. And that doesn't entail just over-fluffing the point you're trying to get across with a lot of purple prose. Good writing is striking that balance, communicating the exact amount of information for your reader to not just know but believe what you are saying.

 

That being said, I'd bet money that most RPers are not some form of trained/published authors, so holding them to that level of quality seems like some lofty expectations. Maybe calmly, politely, articulate this finer point of the craft to them if they take offense to you 'ignoring' them? 

 

Also, on the subject of metagamers... Where's my table flipping emoticon? Because there's a point of contention where I'll just up and walk away mid-post. There's just no excuse for that nonsense. It is bad and you should feel bad.

[Faye]

As said above, show, don't tell.

 

That's not just good RP, it's good writing. If you tell me something is the way it is, I'll just have to take your word for it, and it comes off as you being an undependable narrator. If you show me, however, I'm more inclined to believe what you're telling me.

 

I completely agree! But at the same time, we need to remember that not everyone is a good writer, and that ignoring/belittling them will not help them improve.

[K'dath]

As said above, show, don't tell.

 

That's not just good RP, it's good writing. If you tell me something is the way it is, I'll just have to take your word for it, and it comes off as you being an undependable narrator. If you show me, however, I'm more inclined to believe what you're telling me.

 

I completely agree! But at the same time, we need to remember that not everyone is a good writer, and that ignoring/belittling them will not help them improve.

I agree on that point too! Which was what I was trying to say a little further down.

 

I'm a big advocate of helping people to improve. However, you only get chewed out for attempting to be helpful so many times before you elect to stop approaching people about how they can improve and instead wait for them to ask. People take it as an insult, like they're not 'good enough' if you attempt to share your observations with them.

 

I don't insult people under any circumstance. There's just, frankly, no excuse to be rude to someone ever. Even with the mini-rant above about metagaming, I meant it to convey my pet peeve with a tone of jest... which knowing me did not come across at all and rather seems like elitist snobbery.

[BlessedSilence]

The context for this is several people I've been around that RP their internal thoughts and I'm not sure if they understand that I can't react to those. This just happened in the last hour in fact. The post is just a sort of public statement for RPers. If you're RPing internal thoughts, others around you won't necessarily react to you or your mood in the way you want them to unless you actually act it out rather than emote everything as an internalization. Which has previously led to some asking why others seem to be ignoring what they're RPing.

---

When you emote that you're feeling lost, I can't acknowledge it because it's internal to you.

 

Isn't this just common sense?

 

Well... there's a variety of points of view on this, I've found.

 

Personally, I don't emote anything about my character's internal state unless it would be obvious to an onlooker from her actual actions ("L'yhta's tail rises, peeking out from behind her shoulder in interest"); I prefer to show, not tell, as much as possible. Since my character's not a mind-reader, like DAISHI, I also don't respond to people's emotes of internal state unless, again, it'd be obvious to my not especially socially perceptive character.

 

Throwing out thoughts and beliefs that characters aren't privy to doesn't really help RP very much, IMO, because they can't be responded to ICly without metagaming. It can come off as needless emote showboating or even trollish if your inner monologue is disparaging of another character, as they can't respond to it ICly and just have to "take it." If you need to let a person in on what's going on with your character to help with RP, an OOC tell is probably the better way to do it as there's no question of etiquette at that point.

Glad you mentioned metagaming, that's one of the big principles of the hting.

 

Instead of getting upset, have you tried sending them a tell?  Amazing how much OOC communication helps.  They could still be learning how to RP or may not know the right way.

 

I admit I fall into doing it sometimes, mainly as I am used to RP on forums for many many years. But I guess I've also taught myself how to "look past" and realize when a person just wants to RP but might not know how to "fit in".

[Karaan]

I must said that since I'm one of those -non-good writer (Because English isn't my native language) I like when people can give me hint or other advice on how to write better in English.

 

To return to the subject, I'm a bit in the middle, I like to see (as a player) the internal emotion of the character I'm talking too, but sometime, since I made some mistake how to interpret as a character those emotion people send.

 

I think if use a little in a rp, that can be nice, but if people overuses those, I see that as flooding the rp.

[Faye]

As said above, show, don't tell.

 

That's not just good RP, it's good writing. If you tell me something is the way it is, I'll just have to take your word for it, and it comes off as you being an undependable narrator. If you show me, however, I'm more inclined to believe what you're telling me.

 

I completely agree! But at the same time, we need to remember that not everyone is a good writer, and that ignoring/belittling them will not help them improve.

I agree on that point too! Which was what I was trying to say a little further down.

 

I'm a big advocate of helping people to improve. However, you only get chewed out for attempting to be helpful so many times before you elect to stop approaching people about how they can improve and instead wait for them to ask. People take it as an insult, like they're not 'good enough' if you attempt to share your observations with them.

 

I don't insult people under any circumstance. There's just, frankly, no excuse to be rude to someone ever. Even with the mini-rant above about metagaming, I meant it to convey my pet peeve with a tone of jest... which knowing me did not come across at all and rather seems like elitist snobbery.

 

Your rant was fine, and definitely on the topic of a relatable annoyance! I wasn't trying to call you personally out with that remark--it was just a general statement and mostly in regards to the original post which, while I may be misinterpreting, I took as pretty much saying, "You can do this, but you're wrong."

[Rosekitten]

I'm pretty open to all forms of writing, I know some are not as talented as others (I group myself into this even if I'm told at times I am a good writer). I let some personal thoughts slid as knowing them as the player behind the RP character it can help describe the mood that might be on the other characters face or expression or tone of voice. 

 

now if they did this constantly and nothing but I might question them in a tell if they want any tips or if they really do want me to read into those personal thoughts... I try to be pretty flexible as I do work with a lot of players who are new to rp as well as ones that put my writing to shame easily. 

 

I know personally I use some ic personal thoughts when I have no action or emote for something. But it will be in combination with some sort of action that can probably easily be read with whatever the current mood of the conversation is or that my character has.

[YesGood]

I'm semi-up there with the wrong-doers.

 

Siobhain makes a... lot... of... faces. Her facial expressions and body language are 80% of what makes her, her. Some people who have known her for a while now, as PLAYERS may not read what their CHARACTERS would recall. Like, they've seen this behavior before, several times, but they had a hard work day IRL so they're just taking things at face value. I don't write 'This is ridiculous' she thinks to herself, very often simply because Sio is hard to read.

 

 

Siobhain goes rigid, her shoulders squaring at the stranger's touch on her bicep. Immediately, the muscles of her jaw begin to work, her teeth grinding audibly behind a tight-lipped scowl.

 

This is what she does when Miqo'te touch her. It's intended that Miqo'te who don't know her will take this as intimidating or threatening behavior, a negative response, when in fact this is her embarrassed face. If there are people around who -are- familiar with her, I might add:

 

This familiar expression belies her otherwise unvoiced discomfort.

 

Now. A Miqo'te might somehow be able to tell that she was embarrassed rather than anger and menacing, which isn't how it's supposed to be. Some people dun see that line. I leave it open to interpretation and roll with it however I must. I don't mind seeing people pop up 'blahblahblahthoughtbubbleblah' because they're usually doing it in conjunction with a facial expression that already shows they've got a problem.

Simply narrows down the cause.

 

If Siobhain knows someone well, and they do something like

 

Blah grimaces faintly.

 

In response to something else, she'll have generic concern. If they go the route

 

Blah grimaces faintly, thinking to Blah's self 'This is embarrassing.'

 

That grimace would vastly differ from

 

Blah grimaces faintly, thinking to Blah's self 'Gods, my ribs are killing me.'

 

Could handle it differently, yes, by going into detail about favoring on side or blushing. OR you could use the thoughts for direction rather than detail. I, personally, don't mind either way.

 

I will say though, I find it difficult to adapt to constant thought-bubbling with little to no detail or context otherwise.

 

Sio's not a psychic.

[Fystrael Abylstyrwyn]

Wow, thought Fystrael used /think too much to show that she's observing a character and making mental notes, but I guess I'm not so bad an RP'er...?

Definitely keeping this thread in mind for my newbieness.

[YesGood]

Wow, thought Fystrael used /think too much to show that she's observing a character and making mental notes, but I guess I'm not so bad an RP'er...?

Definitely keeping this thread in mind for my newbieness.

 

Of course you ain't bad!

[Katanyae]

As said above, show, don't tell.

 

That's not just good RP, it's good writing. If you tell me something is the way it is, I'll just have to take your word for it, and it comes off as you being an undependable narrator. If you show me, however, I'm more inclined to believe what you're telling me.

 

I completely agree! But at the same time, we need to remember that not everyone is a good writer, and that ignoring/belittling them will not help them improve.

 

Right on.

[ArmachiA]

I don't so this at all and I find it hurts certain characters actually.

 

Like, Armi is extremely vocal yet timid so all her emotions and feeling are usually spoken or very easily read ("Armi looks around widly, wringing her hands together as she says "Well, I'm nervous, Just thought you'd like to know.... you don't care. Sorry, eh heh.") She's very easy to rp with because of that, everything she does is just out there and makes her easy to respond to.

 

Loki is NOT LIKE THAT AT ALL. An example of RPing her would be, "Wonderful." *She says flatly, her face emotionless.* Is she being sincere? Sarcastic? Is she mad? Does she even care? Nobody knoowwss. This has gotten me into trouble in previous games, where someone took offense to the way that type of character was behaving. They just assumed she was being mean all the time, even though most of the time she was just speaking flatly. I'm actually considering adding a bit of inner monologue to Loki's behavior, so people understand her more.

[Dravus]

It's a pretty awkward situation, I find. Sadly, many role-players are likely to get up in arms and cry out about how 'they can do what they want' instead of striving to improve and be more in line with their more experienced brethren. I find myself equally irritated when people break out into a discussion in brackets about what they had to eat for dinner during what is meant to be a bit of serious role-play. As far as I'm concerned some role-play practices are more damaging and awkward than others.

[Gideon Aryeh]

To be honest, I use internal thoughts/feelings/emotes as a means to get people to laugh OOCly, not as a means for them to work off of-but to lighten the mood of things. Since I am usually involved with a lot of "Dark" or "Grim" RP in the past, it's part of who I am as a writer and RP'er to add in things that would offset the perpetual negativity that can swirl into an endless black pool and lead to people being rather unhappy (Which has occured more then once). 

 

That's a great point and a good use for those internal monologue emotes, I think. As long as it's done tastefully and carefully with no expectation of an IC response, I can see how that could add to a scene from an OOC standpoint.

 

I do this as well for comedic purposes. It breaks up seriousness sometimes and I find its a great icebreaker for new or shy rpers as once you make them laugh you show them how to have fun with it. Any other use of it I'm really not aware of personally. Especially for those of us who are looking at their rp as acting perhaps a television show or a play though a scriptless one of course as I'm not a fan of scripted rp personally. I've always personally been interested in the entertainment part of rp which includes a non participating audience who may just be onlookers eavesdropping on a scene. You'd be surprised with the number of scene watchers there are lurking nearby. Those who end up as rpers themselves. For them these moments can be fun watching an interactive tv show.

 

 

And isn't this about fun at the end of the day?

[K'dath]

Is she being sincere? Sarcastic? Is she mad? Does she even care? Nobody knoowwss.

 

That assessment made me think of this. In a good way, I assure you. Made me giggle.

---

 

There's a big difference between showing thoughts, telling thoughts, and gratuitously needless exposition. While it's better to show through your words what is going on, stating something plainly is not in and of itself wrong.

 

Uh, examples! (quick and dirty ones)

 

"His expression changes as the implications on her words dawn on him. His ears roll back and he looks down, avoiding eye contact."

In this example the characters thoughts aren't explicitly stated and it's based on the reader to infer based only on observable reactions. You'd probably add a little more detail to make sure you get the right meaning across, but it should make sense in context without having to go into that pseudo-mind reader place.

 

"Her account of the situation had put him on edge. He looked nervous and haunted."

In this situation you're explicitly stating what emotion you're projecting. This is relying on the reader to put together the actions and expressions themselves based on what they associate with those things. You're not giving as detailed an account, and little nuances of behavior get lost in translation, but it's a 'quick and dirty' way of making a point. It's not unacceptable by any means, you're still making statements about observations.

 

"He feels scared and alone when he thinks about going back to that place."

This is where it stays into the 'exposition' territory. Thoughts and feelings are not observable traits, unless you are a mind reader. Exposition is not in and of itself a bad their either, because it serves to give context to you, the reader, even in your character does not benefit from it. But exposition is like an expensive spice, you use a little bit of it for flavoring. It can be used to impart a certain tone on your writing.

 

Putting the three examples above you get an over all coherent feel for what is going on in this situation and the character's feelings come through without wasting a lot of effort on needlessly fluffy prose. What is not a decent use of exposition would be...

 

"He didn't know what to do in that situation. Memories of the terrible things he saw came flowing back unbidden. Images of crimes unspeakable, deeds unfathomable to the waking eyes of innocent mortal minds. He wanted to scream, or to cry, but his body was frozen. All he could do was let himself become a useless, nervous wreck."

That right there? That's a shitty post. Don't do that.

Snark aside, that is a terrible use of exposition in an interactive story telling medium. Because what you are doing is bogging me down with a lot of things I can't observe or react to. In all of that block of text I don't actually know what his reaction is. I, the reader, know that he's wrestling with some serious PTSD, but that's not something I, the character, know. I just see a guy, standing there, maybe looking a little uncomfortable. I don't know, because you didn't show me anything.

 

Again, there's are just sort of quickly thrown together examples used to illustrate a point. It's just not good writing to sit there telling someone a bunch of things they can't react to. It doesn't matter if your English isn't good, or if you don't have a large vocabulary. The thing you need to ask yourself before posting is What information am I trying to communicate and Can I see them doing this. It doesn't matter if the observation is blatant (telling) or intuitive (showing) it only matters that it's something that CAN be seen and CAN be reacted to.

 

And that's my crash course on exposition and why it's a terrible thing.

Blah blah disclaimer blah opinions blah blah subjective blah blah grain of salt yadda yadda