You're Not Writing A Novel

[Katanyae]

It doesn't really matter whether it's a hobby or a professional job - everything in existence can be handled incorrectly whether people want to admit it or not. I suppose it's because I'm a realist but I've never really believed in the mantra of there being no right or wrong method when tackling a task. Incidentally, when multiple people are involved in a particular activity then there's the additional element of accountability to consider.

If someone isn't a team player and has no intention of improving themselves then they deserve to be called out in a constructive manner. I don't really believe in brushing issues under the rug, though I do try to eliminate the bad apples from my radar entirely and seek to offer aid to those who show promise and a willingness to learn.

 

Role-play is typically done for the sake of enjoyment. Some people take it more seriously than others and are invested to different degrees. If 'no one cared' about these things then there wouldn't be a debate in the first place. There needs to be an element of balance involved in role-play. Too much elitism is bad, but too much tolerance is just as dangerous and damaging. Creativity doesn't thrive when it's stifled at every turn, though it doesn't thrive if anything and everything is branded a 'good try' even when it's outright awful, inappropriate or illegal.

 

"Too much tolerance is bad"???? Really?

 

Wow. I'm glad you're on Balmung. 

 

I mean, I regret not being on the same server as Roleplay Royalty...but I'll somehow survive.

 

While I found that statement entirely baffling myself... let's not judge an entire server based on one person. Gilgamesh has some bad eggs, too--and certainly no less quantity or quality than Balmung.

 

Agreed. My apologies to Balmung.

[Alothia]

THIS.

 

Thanks for branding a whole server of people as the RP elite...that's just as effective as talking about how there is a right and wrong way to RP...

 

I'm sorry, as someone who tries to welcome and involve all types of RPer into the Balmung community, I'm a bit offended at branding us all that way.

 

I feel like this thread is devolving way too quickly. We need to stick to the topic in the OP, and not go pointing fingers and name calling.

If it continues to become a pissing contest over who is the best type of RPer, I will lock this thread. Consider this the official warning.

[Faye]

THIS.

 

Thanks for branding a whole server of people as the RP elite...that's just as effective as talking about how there is a right and wrong way to RP...

 

I'm sorry, as someone who tries to welcome and involve all types of RPer into the Balmung community, I'm a bit offended at branding us all that way.

 

I feel like this thread is devolving way too quickly. We need to stick to the topic in the OP, and not go pointing fingers and name calling.

If it continues to become a pissing contest over who is the best type of RPer, I will lock this thread. Consider this the official warning.

 

She apologized, though. A lecture now seems sort of asinine. To me, though, this thread is bad to begin with. Locking it seems like the best idea.

[Alothia]

THIS.

 

Thanks for branding a whole server of people as the RP elite...that's just as effective as talking about how there is a right and wrong way to RP...

 

I'm sorry, as someone who tries to welcome and involve all types of RPer into the Balmung community, I'm a bit offended at branding us all that way.

 

I feel like this thread is devolving way too quickly. We need to stick to the topic in the OP, and not go pointing fingers and name calling.

If it continues to become a pissing contest over who is the best type of RPer, I will lock this thread. Consider this the official warning.

 

She apologized, though. A lecture now seems sort of asinine. To me, though, this thread is bad to begin with. Locking it seems like the best idea.

 

When I started typing my reply, the apology post wasn't there yet. I apologize for not noticing the apology.

 

Either way, bot sides are attacking each other.

[K'dath]

Elitism and tolerance in excess are no different than any other extremes. You can have too much of both.

 

Too much elitism isn't just bad, it's awful. It is an absolute cancer on an otherwise civil community. It drives people away from open communication and collaboration in what is essentially a collaborative communication game. When you create tiers no one wins because are dividing your community for a transient sense of superiority. It's cutting off your nose to spite all those filthy nose-having casuals.

 

That being said, hug boxes are also terrible places. Telling everyone they can do as they wish and that no one is ever wrong undermines progression. If you don't have proper reason to do better, then why bother? If you don't have structure then there's no sense of direction. Everything becomes stagnant and trite. Some are so adamant about everyone being mired in this 'equality' to the point of being openly hostile to anyone who tries to improve because it's 'elitist'. 

 

Too tolerant is just 'elitism' for the lower end of the spectrum. It's people who are not good, with no desire to get better, and are snap to condemn anyone 'above' them as an enemy of free expression. It's the exact same sense of entitlement that everyone should play by these standards.

 

There's nothing wrong with having standards. Everyone's will differ, some will be higher than others, but there's nothing wrong with wanting your partner to adhere to them. The issue here is how you handle it.

 

Curing elitism is simple. Denying someone your presence because they are an unwashed mook, unworthy of your skills? Not the right way to go about it. Instead, facilitate open communication. Collaborate with your partner and help them to achieve that standard. If you've got an open mind and some willingness to instruct it's a rewarding process where everyone's enjoyment can be vastly improved upon.

 

Curing entitlement can be difficult. Using 'I don't HAVE to do it your way' is a lazy, uninspired battle cry. No, of course you don't have to do it my way. You don't have to do anything and I can't make you. And I never would attempt to make you play the game any other way than how you want to. But this sort of out-right refusal to listen to well intentioned advice is just as bad as being too good to give advice. 

 

I will never turn away someone because they are not 'good enough'. That doesn't help me or them. But I will say "Can I make an observation? You're using an exceeding amount of exposition in your posts and it makes them difficult to reply to, since my character can't observe your inner monologue. I can make some suggestions if you're having a hard time."

 

Talking it out can fix everything, given a bit of time and understanding. 

 

Ultimately RP is a collaborative communication game. And games are fun. You should be having fun and not telling other people how to have fun. Helping other people to have fun is admirable, but you need to make sure you're approaching it the right way. You can't impose your fun on others, no matter where you stand.

[FreelanceWizard]

Putting details about your character's inner thoughts and feelings is in absolutely, no way metagaming. Is it metagaming to post a bio for your character? Because you're sharing information about your character not only outside of your character's direct speech and actions, but even outside of your RP? That's just silly. Seeing someone share their characters unexpressed thoughts and having your character automatically know all of their character's thoughts/reasons with no logical, justifiable reason is metagaming. There's a big difference.

 

Since I opened up the metagaming can of worms, I guess I should explain what I meant. When a person emotes something of their internal monologue and that's not something that someone could pick up on (as opposed to not something an imperceptive character could pick up on, mind you ), then there's a complication insofar as that person is telling me, the player, something about their character. The question is then, "Why has this information been put out there, and do you intend for me to use it in the scene -- to take it IC?" If it's something there's no way my character could know unless I'm in that character's head ("Person leans back in his chair. 'This is a fine mess,' he thinks, his displeasure growing while his expression remains blank."), then it'd be metagaming for me to take it IC without asking that player first.

 

So, since I'd have to ask OOC anyway to determine if that emote is an RP hook intended to be taken IC or something else, IMO, it's just easier to not emote that sort of information and instead offer it up OOC to other players if you want them to have it. Then there's no question about whether it's metagamed or not, since both players have agreed to that knowledge becoming IC.

 

Now, beyond that, I do think it's better to show and not tell, and that emoting internal state is generally problematic -- but of course, exceptions apply, and I'm not talking about standard emotes like, "Person presses her lips together and narrows her eyes in frustration," since while the "Person is frustrated" is an internal state, a reasonably perceptive character could pick that up. I'm speaking more about things along the lines of the example above.

 

EDIT: Oh, and just to be clear, I'm only talking about RP in game, which is a different beast from, say, forum RP. The social contract is different depending on the modality of play, I think.

[IncubusManatee]

To be honest, I use internal thoughts/feelings/emotes as a means to get people to laugh OOCly, not as a means for them to work off of-but to lighten the mood of things. Since I am usually involved with a lot of "Dark" or "Grim" RP in the past, it's part of who I am as a writer and RP'er to add in things that would offset the perpetual negativity that can swirl into an endless black pool and lead to people being rather unhappy (Which has occured more then once). 

 

That's a great point and a good use for those internal monologue emotes, I think. As long as it's done tastefully and carefully with no expectation of an IC response, I can see how that could add to a scene from an OOC standpoint.

 

Thank's Wizzy, I try hard to make everyones experiences good.

 

 

It's a pretty awkward situation, I find. Sadly, many role-players are likely to get up in arms and cry out about how 'they can do what they want' instead of striving to improve and be more in line with their more experienced brethren. I find myself equally irritated when people break out into a discussion in brackets about what they had to eat for dinner during what is meant to be a bit of serious role-play. As far as I'm concerned some role-play practices are more damaging and awkward than others.

 

So what does it take to get invited to your RP Elite country club? Yanno, cause I want to make sure I'm 'in line' with all the 'right people' :roll::lol: Or maybe you just borrowed 'Ye Olde Roleplayers Rulebook' from the OP. 

 

Different styles should be encouraged. This isn't a fucking raiding strat, formulated and homogenized. Just because someone doesn't live up to your imaginary code doesn't mean they're a bad RPer. It makes them different. And maybe they DO need to work on their trade...but don't we all? And isn't one of the best way to improve something doing it repeatedly with a good cross section of test subjects? 

 

The best way to create a griefer is to treat our own like shit.

 

 

 

 

Oh you, Kat. I love you.

 

 

Now for the rest of y'all.

 

 

Try and take it easy on the snipes back and forth about servers. This thread has just gotten too far out of hand. Both sides have good RP'ers and bad RP'ers, lets agree on that. And let it go already.

[Asyria]

Feel free to do this in your RP, but don't expect to be acknowledge if you do.

 

If you go into a place and describe your thoughts, I, as a character, cannot acknowledge having read what you just emoted. Because it was in your head. If you emote that you are distracted by fumbling about, being clumsy, looking lost, that's something I as a character can observe and respond to.

 

When you emote that you're feeling lost, I can't acknowledge it because it's internal to you.

I'll say it one more time... there are two ways to RP through a Written medium.

 

1- RP is acting. You must stick to describing actions.

 

2- RP is writing. You may describe actions and thoughts.

 

Since, it's a Written medium... 2 would make more sense.. but for some reason, tha majority sticks to 1.

 

I don't get it.

 

I, as a frequent reader and occasional writer, enjoy getting insight on other character's thoughts even if my own character cannot react to them.

It's part of the pleasure of Reading.

RPing through a written medium is an exercise in group writing and reading each other's words.

 

We're not reading a novel?

I disagree.

I believe we very much are, except each of us write their own part.

 

There is NO right and wrong way to RP.

Anyone saying otherwise speak only for themselves.

 

 

Note: As interesting as inner thoughts might be (just think of what would a novel about the show Dexter would be without his inner monologue, or worse, how the show itself would become), it's common courtesy to also give something, action or dialog, for others to respond to, otherwise things will stagnate.

[Katanyae]

THIS.

 

Thanks for branding a whole server of people as the RP elite...that's just as effective as talking about how there is a right and wrong way to RP...

 

I'm sorry, as someone who tries to welcome and involve all types of RPer into the Balmung community, I'm a bit offended at branding us all that way.

 

I feel like this thread is devolving way too quickly. We need to stick to the topic in the OP, and not go pointing fingers and name calling.

If it continues to become a pissing contest over who is the best type of RPer, I will lock this thread. Consider this the official warning.

 

Please read my post. I didn't brand a whole server. I said "I AM GLAD YOU ARE ON BALMUNG". You. An individual.

 

Context? So I don't have to run into the person as I am on Gil.

 

Be offended if you must; I apologized already to someone else that missed the context, as I didn't want someone ELSE to misread it.

[Asyria]

So at first I just replied t the OP because that topic always comes up and those who enjoy sharing and reading inner monologue or thoughts are always looked down upon by those who think "it's wrong"...

 

But I've read a few of the posts now.

 

WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE???

 

Must EVERY debate always have to end with Balmung vs Giglamesh or Elitism accusations or some stupid waste of forum space like that??

 

For the Twelves' sake, just shut it down already. >.<

 

Live and let live, anyone?

[Dravus]

It doesn't really matter whether it's a hobby or a professional job - everything in existence can be handled incorrectly whether people want to admit it or not. I suppose it's because I'm a realist but I've never really believed in the mantra of there being no right or wrong method when tackling a task. Incidentally, when multiple people are involved in a particular activity then there's the additional element of accountability to consider.

If someone isn't a team player and has no intention of improving themselves then they deserve to be called out in a constructive manner. I don't really believe in brushing issues under the rug, though I do try to eliminate the bad apples from my radar entirely and seek to offer aid to those who show promise and a willingness to learn.

 

Role-play is typically done for the sake of enjoyment. Some people take it more seriously than others and are invested to different degrees. If 'no one cared' about these things then there wouldn't be a debate in the first place. There needs to be an element of balance involved in role-play. Too much elitism is bad, but too much tolerance is just as dangerous and damaging. Creativity doesn't thrive when it's stifled at every turn, though it doesn't thrive if anything and everything is branded a 'good try' even when it's outright awful, inappropriate or illegal.

 

I...I cannot honestly believe that someone actually said that 'too much' elitism is bad, but too much tolerance is just as bad.

 

Wow. Just...wow. I'm glad you're on Balmung. 

 

I mean, I regret not being on the same server as Roleplay Royalty...but I'll somehow survive.

 

Why are you taking it so personally? It's a debate, it's fine to disagree with what I'm saying, though it's not fine to imply that I'm a horrible person as a result of my beliefs. Do we really need to add an 'in my opinion' disclaimer to every post we make? It's nonsense. An apology would be very much appreciated! Why on earth people think my word is law is beyond me. I don't make the rules, I simply seek out like-minded role-players and stick with them, offering help and advice to those who are willing to accept it.

 

Allow me to elaborate: too much elitism is bad and too much tolerance is bad in my opinion. The reason for this is that excessive elitism can make role-play feel very forced and stagnant, usually driven by an obsession to plan out every last little thing in order to see whether it lines up with the canon lore or not. Some people take this too far and begin looking down at anyone who tries to fill in the gaps with feasible concepts.

 

On the other hand, too much tolerance can lead to all sorts of strange things being considered 'fine' even if they make people uncomfortable. I don't need to see people's deepest and darkest sexual fetishes acted out in public, or for people to start claiming that it's 'not a big deal' if a popular role-player decides to abuse their position within the community to take extreme liberties with their character concept and claim that they're the right hand and lover of Admiral Merlwyb. I come from a WoW background and these things do happen, though many role-players prefer to brush them under the rug instead of setting down even the most basic of safeguards and standards.

 

On a side note, if people truly find my writing style so offensive please consider toggling the ignore function on. I enjoy a good debate and consider myself a critical thinker. I'm not here to coat my words in sugar, or indulge in a popularity contest. I'm not 'mean' for being direct. What I do strive to do is remain within the confines of the site rules. I don't lose my temper, I don't target other posters and ridicule them for their opinions and expect the same courtesy in return. I just don't mince my words. I'm a Scouser, after all.

[Katanyae]

It doesn't really matter whether it's a hobby or a professional job - everything in existence can be handled incorrectly whether people want to admit it or not. I suppose it's because I'm a realist but I've never really believed in the mantra of there being no right or wrong method when tackling a task. Incidentally, when multiple people are involved in a particular activity then there's the additional element of accountability to consider.

If someone isn't a team player and has no intention of improving themselves then they deserve to be called out in a constructive manner. I don't really believe in brushing issues under the rug, though I do try to eliminate the bad apples from my radar entirely and seek to offer aid to those who show promise and a willingness to learn.

 

Role-play is typically done for the sake of enjoyment. Some people take it more seriously than others and are invested to different degrees. If 'no one cared' about these things then there wouldn't be a debate in the first place. There needs to be an element of balance involved in role-play. Too much elitism is bad, but too much tolerance is just as dangerous and damaging. Creativity doesn't thrive when it's stifled at every turn, though it doesn't thrive if anything and everything is branded a 'good try' even when it's outright awful, inappropriate or illegal.

 

I...I cannot honestly believe that someone actually said that 'too much' elitism is bad, but too much tolerance is just as bad.

 

Wow. Just...wow. I'm glad you're on Balmung. 

 

I mean, I regret not being on the same server as Roleplay Royalty...but I'll somehow survive.

 

Why are you taking it so personally? It's a debate, it's fine to disagree with what I'm saying, though it's not fine to imply that I'm a horrible person as a result of my beliefs. Do we really need to add an 'in my opinion' disclaimer to every post we make? It's nonsense. An apology would be very much appreciated! Why on earth people think my word is law is beyond me. I don't make the rules, I simply seek out like-minded role-players and stick with them, offering help and advice to those who are willing to accept it.

 

Allow me to elaborate: too much elitism is bad and too much tolerance is bad in my opinion. The reason for this is that excessive elitism can make role-play feel very forced and stagnant, usually driven by an obsession to plan out every last little thing in order to see whether it lines up with the canon lore or not. Some people take this too far and begin looking down at anyone who tries to fill in the gaps with feasible concepts.

 

On the other hand, too much tolerance can lead to all sorts of strange things being considered 'fine' even if they make people uncomfortable. I don't need to see people's deepest and darkest sexual fetishes acted out in public, or for people to start claiming that it's 'not a big deal' if a popular role-player decides to abuse their position within the community to take extreme liberties with their character concept and claim that they're the right hand and lover of Admiral Merlwyb. I come from a WoW background and these things do happen, though many role-players prefer to brush them under the rug instead of setting down even the most basic of safeguards and standards.

 

On a side note, if people truly find my writing style so offensive please consider toggling the ignore function on. I enjoy a good debate and consider myself a critical thinker. I'm not here to coat my words in sugar, or indulge in a popularity contest. I'm not 'mean' for being direct. What I do strive to do is remain within the confines of the site rules. I don't lose my temper, I don't target other posters and ridicule them for their opinions and expect the same courtesy in return. I just don't mince my words. I'm a Scouser, after all.

 

I'm not taking it personally. I just strongly dislike the attitude that you are portraying in your posting.

 

Did I imply you were a horrible person that kills puppies? No. I said that I am glad you play on a different server than me because I think your stance on all of this is an anti-beacon for a strong, diverse community. I know you want to think this is all about YOU, but it's not.

 

I'm sorry if you feel you are owed an apology. Because I will not apologize for how I feel about a viewpoint I utterly despise. And no matter how many times you try to dress your opinion up, it still comes at the cost of others' feelings. I'm also sorry that you're playing the victim card.

 

So yeah I guess you did get an apology. But not the one you publically wanted, hmm?

[Dravus]

It doesn't really matter whether it's a hobby or a professional job - everything in existence can be handled incorrectly whether people want to admit it or not. I suppose it's because I'm a realist but I've never really believed in the mantra of there being no right or wrong method when tackling a task. Incidentally, when multiple people are involved in a particular activity then there's the additional element of accountability to consider.

If someone isn't a team player and has no intention of improving themselves then they deserve to be called out in a constructive manner. I don't really believe in brushing issues under the rug, though I do try to eliminate the bad apples from my radar entirely and seek to offer aid to those who show promise and a willingness to learn.

 

Role-play is typically done for the sake of enjoyment. Some people take it more seriously than others and are invested to different degrees. If 'no one cared' about these things then there wouldn't be a debate in the first place. There needs to be an element of balance involved in role-play. Too much elitism is bad, but too much tolerance is just as dangerous and damaging. Creativity doesn't thrive when it's stifled at every turn, though it doesn't thrive if anything and everything is branded a 'good try' even when it's outright awful, inappropriate or illegal.

 

I...I cannot honestly believe that someone actually said that 'too much' elitism is bad, but too much tolerance is just as bad.

 

Wow. Just...wow. I'm glad you're on Balmung. 

 

I mean, I regret not being on the same server as Roleplay Royalty...but I'll somehow survive.

 

Why are you taking it so personally? It's a debate, it's fine to disagree with what I'm saying, though it's not fine to imply that I'm a horrible person as a result of my beliefs. Do we really need to add an 'in my opinion' disclaimer to every post we make? It's nonsense. An apology would be very much appreciated! Why on earth people think my word is law is beyond me. I don't make the rules, I simply seek out like-minded role-players and stick with them, offering help and advice to those who are willing to accept it.

 

Allow me to elaborate: too much elitism is bad and too much tolerance is bad in my opinion. The reason for this is that excessive elitism can make role-play feel very forced and stagnant, usually driven by an obsession to plan out every last little thing in order to see whether it lines up with the canon lore or not. Some people take this too far and begin looking down at anyone who tries to fill in the gaps with feasible concepts.

 

On the other hand, too much tolerance can lead to all sorts of strange things being considered 'fine' even if they make people uncomfortable. I don't need to see people's deepest and darkest sexual fetishes acted out in public, or for people to start claiming that it's 'not a big deal' if a popular role-player decides to abuse their position within the community to take extreme liberties with their character concept and claim that they're the right hand and lover of Admiral Merlwyb. I come from a WoW background and these things do happen, though many role-players prefer to brush them under the rug instead of setting down even the most basic of safeguards and standards.

 

On a side note, if people truly find my writing style so offensive please consider toggling the ignore function on. I enjoy a good debate and consider myself a critical thinker. I'm not here to coat my words in sugar, or indulge in a popularity contest. I'm not 'mean' for being direct. What I do strive to do is remain within the confines of the site rules. I don't lose my temper, I don't target other posters and ridicule them for their opinions and expect the same courtesy in return. I just don't mince my words. I'm a Scouser, after all.

 

I'm not taking it personally. I just strongly dislike the attitude that you are portraying in your posting.

 

Did I imply you were a horrible person that kills puppies? No. I said that I am glad you play on a different server than me because I think your stance on all of this is an anti-beacon for a strong, diverse community. I know you want to think this is all about YOU, but it's not.

 

I'm sorry if you feel you are owed an apology. Because I will not apologize for how I feel about a viewpoint I utterly despise. And no matter how many times you try to dress your opinion up, it still comes at the cost of others' feelings. I'm also sorry that you're playing the victim card.

 

So yeah I guess you did get an apology. But not the one you publically wanted, hmm?

 

Why are you claiming that it isn't about me if you're targeting me specifically with your commentary? I'm not playing the victim card at all, I'm asking you to practice what you preach and treat other posters with dignity and respect even if you happen to disagree with their views.

 

You don't get a diverse community through belittling people who harbour different beliefs, opinions and have endured completely different experiences to their peers - that just isn't how it works.

[Clover]

I believe that Theodric's point is quite clear and means no harm, so I'm also surprised at the strong reactions it's getting (especially when the word "despise" is even involved) o.oa

 

I tend to be quite chill when it comes to RP. I admit I'm the kind who thinks that people should RP as they like and I should just deal with whatever happens. This attitude placed a past character of mine in a very uncomfortable scene where she was nearly raped (it didn't go further because I had to finally step ahead OOCly and let the other player know that I very much wanted my character to be saved asap *laughs*). That wasn't the nicest thing for me, so yes, Theodric's point basically means that we must set a limit on things that we allow when we RP. No idea of why anyone should despise that, but oh well ^^;

I doubt I have misunderstood him.

 

Also, if there's something I will avoid when I RP? That's very touchy RPers. People who make a big deal out of other people's harmless opinions, and who try to make other people feel guilty for stating them. I like being able to have a casual conversation with someone who, hopefully, won't jump on my neck over anything I say.

[Aeslyn Grey]

I have read  this thread with interest as a person who, whilst having some prior RP experience, still considers herself to be in a learning stage. I think we never stop improving and honing our skills. 

 

I would appreciate roleplaying with someone who has Theodric's approach to helping people. What I don't like is if I go away from an RP wondering if I made bloopers that no one was comfortable telling me about, or if I was just boring and no one thought it was their place to give me suggestions for new ideas. Of course I don't expect everyone to help me, but I would be more than happy to RP with people who sent me the occasional /tell to say (you might want to try doing that this way) or who would meet up with me afterwards to give me suggestions. 

 

I might not agree with everything they suggest, but I would add the knowledge to my mental list of things to consider when thinking about how people interpret my style. As long as it is done with kindness, discretion and with a genuine wish to help, and not to feed their own ego, then I would welcome that approach very much.

 

I hesitated as to whether to contribute to this discussion, because the atmosphere in here has turned hostile. It was a good discussion that I found interesting, but it makes me sad to see someone be singled out in the manner that happened here. I'd like to see this discussion stay on topic, and have an atmosphere where everyone feels safe to express their opinion and stay constructive.

[Alothia]

Mkay. I asked you guys to stop arguing back and forth. I'm closing this thread now.