My take on the anthropology of the Keepers of the Moon

[Shayrei]

Removing as I have been educated! I believe much of my theory is too far evolved from where the timeline is now. Given a few decades things could turn towards this. This is why I enjoy RP communities!

 

 

Also.. sorry about the spoiler messups... stupid phones.

 

Okay, let me preface by saying... I am not a lore expert. I don't claim to be. I am not setting out to get this turned into Fannon and to write my name on the credits of FFXIV history.

 

 

 

 

 

I am simply new to this game and this world and in trying to find and flesh out my female Keeper I found the lack of substantial 'history' on the race frustrating. As such I started pulling everything I could find together, from wiki pages and quest data to interviews and fan pages in order to solidify the world I was stepping into.

 

 

I've seen others, even on these forums, with my frustration so I thought. "What if someone put together a "compendium" of lore and player insight to help us get a greater picture of our race?" 

This is what I've come up with. It's just a start.. and very green and I'm sure flat our wrong in some places. I'm unsure on time lines and  don't even know how long Miqo'tes or any others have been around Eorzea. Hell, I'm not sure when the calamity happened (five years? ten?)

 

 

I'm getting distracted... Anyway!

 

 

I wanted to know what your thoughts were on this. This community is full of great players and wonderfully inventive story tellers, what do you think?

 

 

I did set out with the intent to NOT go against anything that has been written as lore by Square and instead just wished to flesh out the 'what else is there' bits in regards to their sociology. 

 

 

I wanted to make them different enough from the Seekers to give them more of an identity than just 'matriarchal'. 

 

 

This is not the 'end all be all'. This is just a glimpse as to ONE way the race lives. I'm sure not all Keepers will follow this guideline. Evolution and ambition go a long way to change things. Just as many Seekers break from tribes, so may Keepers break from 'tradition'...

 

 

My hope is that we can build on this together. I have one in the works for Seekers, but as I don't play them I'm not as motivated -currently-.

 

 

 

 

 

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Race: Miqo’te

 

Ancestral History: During the Age of Endless Frost, as the seas turned toice and passage over them became possible, Eorzea saw an influx of foreign fauna to her shores. This in turn brought the hunting tribes which subsisted upon them, the modern descendants of whom are today known as the Miqo'te.

As time  Miqo'te have diverged sharply into two physically and socially distinguishable groups — the diurnal Seekers of the Sun and the nocturnal Keepers of the Moon.

 

Race Culture:Keepersof the Moon

Traditionally, the Keepers of the Moon are nocturnal. Shying from the garish light of day, they revel in the shroud of night, and offer their piety to Menphina the Lover, goddess of the moon.  Keepers of the Moon also have a custom of applying war paint to their faces, as it is believed the vivid colors grant lunar powers. While still traditionally practiced, this ritual is often saved for hunting parties and festival gatherings.

 

 

Physiology:

 

Due in large part to their exposure to darkness, the pupils of a “Keeper” are large and round, with very little iris exposure.

 

They are distinguishable from their diurnal counterparts by their darker hued or “flushed out” fur, ears that are slightly longer and thinner with short hair, rounder eyes, more pronounced canines, longer, skinnier tails, and have long canines that are clearly visible.

 

They, like their diurnal counterparts, retain a superb sense of smell and powerful leg muscles are the results of a long evolution geared towards hunting and predation.

 

With the integration into the land of Eorzea,physiological differences within the two subsets of the Miqo’te race can be quite subtle and varying. It can be quite difficult for most non-miqo’te (and even many miqo’te!) to differentiate upon first meeting one another.

 

 

 

 

Sociology

 

Comparatively few in number when compared to the other races inhabiting Eorzea, many Miqo’te maintain an insular intolerance toward other races, some even holding strong prejudices against the other subset culture (Keepers/Seekers) within their clans. While the Seekers of the Sun have retained much of their tribal and traditionally patriarchal heritage, many of the Keepers have evolved into a matriarchal society favoring status and integration into their new home land.

 

 

Traditionally, Keepers have set up in small bands of families often referred to as communes. These communes seldom hold more than a few families, though some communities have been known to grow into small village or city like structures. The matriarchal influence is apparent in the naming conventions and political structures observed within the communes. While Seekers tend to seclude themselves away from the outside world and largely even many other tribes, Keepers are fundamentally active in diversifying and inter-mingling their communes to ensure strong bloodlines and allied territories through arranged mating and coupling between ranking social families. This is theorized to be in large part because of the number of Keeper daughters born. However, since the integration into Eorzea, Keepers that have left their communes tend to lead isolated lifestyles, even when living in the more populous cities.

 

Politics and Social Hierarchy:

Unlike the Seekers of the Sun, the Keepers of the Moon is a highly matriarchal society, with family names passed down from the mother, not the father. It is said that some of these surnames have survived since the First Astral Era.

Smaller communes are often lead by a ranking family’s matriarch. It’s unknown what system of electoral process is used to decide this selection, but it’s inferred that power is bought through means and goods. Larger communes often have a council of matriarchs with some mates in positions of advisers and community figure-heads.

                       

            Social status is highly regarded in these communities, often times limiting mating opportunities for the lowliest of male and female keepers alike. Status seems to be achieved through breeding, ancestry and wealth. Each member within the community is expected to hold a skill-set vital to the success of the commune. While difficult, the climb can and has been made from the bottom of the social ranking toward the top and into a house of influence. Despite the discrepancy in hierarchy and permissions found with rank, no member of the community is ever left wanting. Care is taken to ensure that the needs of all members are met regardless of clout.

 

Mating and Sexuality:

Keepers of the Moon tend to pair monogamously; coupling with the intent for offspring. While Seekers mate primarily to bear strong young, affection and compatibility seem to hold some semblance of value for the Keepers.

Sexuality among the Keepers is often used as a token of power, with control lying in the hands of the females of the culture. Status holding females are empowered and taught from a young age their role and the power that they hold with it. Females from high ranking social families are often debuted as they reach an age of maturity. They are offered a choice of many, mostly, first born males from families of similar affluence and are expected to couple and mate. Pacts are often brokered to tie communes together in much the same fashion. While all the matriarchs of the families have much influence in the decision making process, the debutante female and her line of matriarchs has the final word in the matter, conclusively.

Males of both Seekers and Keepers are ultimately used as breeders. However the stigma and connotation between the two are highly polarized. Male Keepers work diligently to increase their popularity and vie for the affections of, sometimes many, female Keepers in order to procure a strong and influential line of offspring. While they hold little choice in the matter in the end, the effort they put into the debutante “courting stage” does give them some semblance of sway.

Males and females of lower class families will often find more freedom in their choices of mates. They’re status not being at stake allows them to place more of an emphasis on choice and even affection. It is unlikely, however, that a high-class female would ever be paired with a low-class male and even more unlikely if that were reversed. It is looked at as disgraceful for a high-class female to lower herself in such a way.

 

While largely heterosexual, it is interesting to note that homosexuality is not uncommon. In fact, female homosexuality is more commonly seen given the options. This is theorized to be, largely, due to the number of female to male offspring born.

 

Military:

Traditionally females and males both find their place in positions of defense. After proving themselves able-bodied fighters, many females’ statuses are raised, gaining them a place outside of battle and into positions of strategic political power. Males do often serve on a council of advisers, though their primary place in the military is found on the fields of battle as warriors and hunters to earn favor with the women they serve so as to gain footing on the political ladder for favored breeding.

 

 

 

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I thought it would be fun to include other things such as art and culture more social/gender roles.. but by the time I got here my head wanted to explode.

 

 

 

 

 

Comments?

 

 

 

 

 

*ducks from tomatoes*

 

 

 

 

 

[Chisae]

Some of the things in the Sociology part I didn't know about, very interesting.

[LiadansWhisper]

I'm curious...why communes?  Is that a word from the wiki that I missed, or something you came up with?  If the latter, why that word?  I dunno why, but it bugs me.  

[Shayrei]

Some of the things in the Sociology part I didn't know about, very interesting.

 

Much, if not most of the sociology portion is just stuff I've pulled from thin air in an effort to build up a sense of self for the culture.

 

I'm curious...why communes?  Is that a word from the wiki that I missed, or something you came up with?  If the latter, why that word?  I dunno why, but it bugs me.  

 

Communes is just something I came up with. A play on community which is used in the wiki. 

 

I thought it fit the bill for tribe, but not a tribe.. community.. but a closed one?  Haha

[LiadansWhisper]

I'm curious...why communes?  Is that a word from the wiki that I missed, or something you came up with?  If the latter, why that word?  I dunno why, but it bugs me.  

 

Communes is just something I came up with. A play on community which is used in the wiki. 

 

I thought it fit the bill for tribe, but not a tribe.. community.. but a closed one?  Haha

 

Well, uh, because Communes is normally associated with Communism, and your society doesn't fit that at all, it was just confusing is all!

 

Thanks for the clarification!

[Shayrei]

I'm curious...why communes?  Is that a word from the wiki that I missed, or something you came up with?  If the latter, why that word?  I dunno why, but it bugs me.  

 

Communes is just something I came up with. A play on community which is used in the wiki. 

 

I thought it fit the bill for tribe, but not a tribe.. community.. but a closed one?  Haha

 

Well, uh, because Communes is normally associated with Communism, and your society doesn't fit that at all, it was just confusing is all!

 

Thanks for the clarification!

 

Interesting.. I've never associated communes with communism... Mostly hippies and naked people. >.>

 

Hah

[Nako Vesh]

I like the ideas and creativity you have going here, and I was thinking we might have to have a player-made Keeper compendium sooner or later if SE didn't provide more lore. 

 

I do question a few points however. As brought up in this thread, we don't have a whole lot of real life matriarchal societies to draw upon when imagining the Keepers, but there are a few. I was personally quite taken with the idea that, like the Mosuo, Miqote might take mating/coupling/relationships in a far less formal tone than you have suggested here.

 

It makes sense to me that a society that highly values physicality in the form of hunting and sport, would put less emphasis on social status or class through other means. I personally see them as gaining status almost entirely through prowess in battle, while some reverence is based bloodlines. I personally don't see "class" playing a part much at all.

 

Each member within the community is expected to hold a skill-set vital to the success of the commune. While difficult, the climb can and has been made from the bottom of the social ranking toward the top and into a house of influence. 

I don't really think Keepers should veer into the area of family houses personally. I like the idea of small tribes better.

[Michikyou]

I like the ideas and creativity you have going here, and I was thinking we might have to have a player-made Keeper compendium sooner or later if SE didn't provide more lore. 

 

I do question a few points however. As brought up in this thread, we don't have a whole lot of real life matriarchal societies to draw upon when imagining the Keepers, but there are a few. I was personally quite taken with the idea that, like the Mosuo, Miqote might take mating/coupling/relationships in a far less formal tone than you have suggested here.

 

It makes sense to me that a society that highly values physicality in the form of hunting and sport, would put less emphasis on social status or class through other means. I personally see them as gaining status almost entirely through prowess in battle, while some reverence is based bloodlines. I personally don't see "class" playing a part much at all.

 

Each member within the community is expected to hold a skill-set vital to the success of the commune. While difficult, the climb can and has been made from the bottom of the social ranking toward the top and into a house of influence. 

I don't really think Keepers should veer into the area of family houses personally. I like the idea of small tribes better.

 

I thought they would be called small tribes made of 1-3 families.

[allgivenover]

Keepers do not pair up monogamously. They have breeding males ala the Seekers of the Sun. Unfortunately we have no details beyond that.

 

From a level 25 Quarry Mill levequest that states explicitly that Keepers have breeding males as well (I forget the name at the moment)

 

 

Secondly, this topic needs a disclaimer that a lot of this is your invention, isn't canon, and relies on a large number of assumptions. We don't get to decide the lore or the direction that Keepers should take, SE does. Unfortunately SE only gave us scraps and scarce details that begged even more questions. In the case of Keepers, all we ever got regarding sexuality and mating was the description that they are matriarchal and that males are rare. Few conclusions can be drawn from so little canon info, Keepers being monogamous isn't one of them.

 

Consider this, Miqo'te males are born very rarely (there is ONE that we get to see in game), if they paired monogamously with females there wouldn't be enough males to pair with, and as a result the Keepers would have passed into obscurity long ago.

 

This topic has been poked at to death many times in the past, my favorite post on the subject can be found here:(http://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthread.php?tid=2961). I'm not saying you have to accept it, but it does make reasonable conclusions regarding what a fantastical culture with these features would be like.

[Shayrei]

I like the ideas and creativity you have going here, and I was thinking we might have to have a player-made Keeper compendium sooner or later if SE didn't provide more lore. 

 

I do question a few points however. As brought up in this thread, we don't have a whole lot of real life matriarchal societies to draw upon when imagining the Keepers, but there are a few. I was personally quite taken with the idea that, like the Mosuo, Miqote might take mating/coupling/relationships in a far less formal tone than you have suggested here.

 

It makes sense to me that a society that highly values physicality in the form of hunting and sport, would put less emphasis on social status or class through other means. I personally see them as gaining status almost entirely through prowess in battle, while some reverence is based bloodlines. I personally don't see "class" playing a part much at all.

 

Each member within the community is expected to hold a skill-set vital to the success of the commune. While difficult, the climb can and has been made from the bottom of the social ranking toward the top and into a house of influence. 

I don't really think Keepers should veer into the area of family houses personally. I like the idea of small tribes better.

 

 

I hadn't seen that thread! I'll have to read into it, now! 

 

I think my goal with the quite different shift in cultural ways was to be just that, different. I mean they diverged for a reason, right? So while seekers are tribal and 'primitive' for lack of a better term since my brain is in sleepy time mode right now, Keepers have stepped beyond that towards a world of industry and trade (something I think, from examples of the U tribe in game, that some Seekers struggle with). 

 

With that would come a shift in value that's placed on physicality and battle prowess(seekers) and lean it in toward wealth and status. 

 

This of course is a generalization by any definition. Some Keepers may very well be more similar to Seekers still with the only difference being the shift in Nuhn/male roles. 

 

I thought there would be /should be some shift in the relationships as well. While the seekers tend to be polyamorous, I understand the Keepers to lean more toward to monogamy. The structure of the higher class's "courtship" seemed to fit with a matriarchy as well as still cling to some sort of tribal ancestry.  Freedom would be found in the majority of the population within the normal/lower castes. 

 

As to the house phrasing, I think I just worded it incorrectly. I didn't mean they had literal houses.. although it does fit with my structure, I suppose. There, though, I merely meant they would gain affluence. 

 

All very thought worthy points though, thank you!!

---

 

This topic has been poked at to death many times in the past, my favorite post on the subject can be found here:(http://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthread.php?tid=2961). I'm not saying you have to accept it, but it does make reasonable conclusions regarding what a fantastical culture with these features would be like.

Thank you for this! I will be removing my post as I believe my largely under formed idea of the timeline is problematic. My ideas require far too much time to have passed to allow such evolution of the race's cultures.

 

At the end of the day, play what you play, right?

 

It always makes for an interesting story!

[allgivenover]

Keepers have stepped beyond that towards a world of industry and trade (something I think, from examples of the U tribe in game, that some Seekers struggle with). ..

 

...With that would come a shift in value that's placed on physicality and battle prowess(seekers) and lean it in toward wealth and status... 

 

...I understand the Keepers to lean more toward to monogamy. The structure of the higher class's "courtship" seemed to fit with a matriarchy as well as still cling to some sort of tribal ancestry.  Freedom would be found in the majority of the population within the normal/lower castes... 

 

...As to the house phrasing, I think I just worded it incorrectly. I didn't mean they had literal houses.. although it does fit with my structure, I suppose. There, though, I merely meant they would gain affluence.

 

Some of this makes for some nteresting places that Keeper culture could go as a whole in light of the calamity, but it has absolutely no basis in lore whatsoever. I know it's frustrating that we don't details on such an atypical culture that many RPers are keen on being a part of, but that doesn't give us the right to just make it up and form a "player made compendium".

[Chisae]

I think part of the trouble we might be having is that we are trying to stuff cat-people into a human cultural view. Among humans its considered bad for people to be promiscuous, at least in most cultures. Cats however do not share that view point. They go into heat and they go off and find a likely bed-buddy for a few minutes to half an hour.

 

Its more likely that both tribes are promiscuous, especially as Allgivenover noted, males are rare among the Moonkitties. They wouldn't pair up monogamously at all. I am sure there are exceptions, like in very tiny families where the head female lays claim to a particular male. Larger extended families would have a pool of males and the females would take one as the need or fancy arises. The males on the other hand would be trying to make themselves look better than the other males in the lot to get their genes passed on (just like in every other species - except maybe fish, dunno about them).

 

I kinda liked the OP's sociology write up, but I have to agree that it doesnt really fit. It might fit with the Sunkitties though.

 

As for or not making up stuff to fill in the gaps, that's a debate from another thread that was beat to death and got no where. Some people are alright with fannon, others think it's the road to hell lined with dubious good intentions. It's just a topic where both parties have to agree to disagree. Especially since the naysayers are not being forced to abide by said fannon.

 

ANYWAY... I'd be more inclined to pass on this idea that Moonkitties are puritan with their sexuality - and while I've said before that I haven't seen any moonkeeper prostitutes like I have Sunseekers, really its hard to tell one from the other sometimes.

 

That's my ten gil... *goes back to watching anime*

 

PS: We weren't given a "right" but SE hasn't come out and said that making up lore for our own enjoyment is against TOS. As long as someone isn't trying to make up stuff and for oithers to go along with it, it's not really your place to tell them they can't do it either.

 

*really goes back to watching anime this time*

[Shayrei]

Keepers have stepped beyond that towards a world of industry and trade (something I think, from examples of the U tribe in game, that some Seekers struggle with). ..

 

...With that would come a shift in value that's placed on physicality and battle prowess(seekers) and lean it in toward wealth and status... 

 

...I understand the Keepers to lean more toward to monogamy. The structure of the higher class's "courtship" seemed to fit with a matriarchy as well as still cling to some sort of tribal ancestry.  Freedom would be found in the majority of the population within the normal/lower castes... 

 

...As to the house phrasing, I think I just worded it incorrectly. I didn't mean they had literal houses.. although it does fit with my structure, I suppose. There, though, I merely meant they would gain affluence.

 

Some of this makes for some nteresting places that Keeper culture could go as a whole in light of the calamity, but it has absolutely no basis in lore whatsoever. I know it's frustrating that we don't details on such an atypical culture that many RPers are keen on being a part of, but that doesn't give us the right to just make it up and form a "player made compendium".

Nope, you're very correct, and I did say that the sociological aspects were the made up bits.  Not saying mine is the basis that everyone would RP  with by -any- means... I just like to see where and how others have filled in their own bits to flesh out their idea of the culture.

 

As far as I'm concerned we can all continue to play as we will, we'll eventually find a group that RPs as we do and we'll all continue to /eye the ones we find strange. Hah

I just wanted to see how far fetched I was! A few decades it seems!

[Fates Skein]

There's nothing wrong with throwing out some ideas about how Keepers might work!  I, personally, -love- to speculate and draw from RL influences (both human and feline/canine) in order to fill in the massive gaps of lore that exist in game for the miqo'te.  Of -course- it's just speculation and no one is saying that every Keeper/Seeker must adhere to these ideas, it's just a fun mental exercise that doesn't hurt anybody but may get people to thinking about things that they never considered for backstory.

 

ShayRei, rock on with this and I really don't think you need to strike it out!    Mentioned before or not, it's always good to read other people's takes on things.

[Jomoru]

Keepers do not pair up monogamously. They have breeding males ala the Seekers of the Sun. Unfortunately we have no details beyond that.

 

From a level 25 Quarry Mill levequest that states explicitly that Keepers have breeding males as well (I forget the name at the moment)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Or its a way of saying age. "3 young women and 1 adult male" just that Keepers consider sexual activity to be a part of adult quality. This does not mean they use the Seeker method and could easily hold more closely to monogomous relationships.

 

 

Secondly, this topic needs a disclaimer that a lot of this is your invention, isn't canon, and relies on a large number of assumptions. We don't get to decide the lore or the direction that Keepers should take, SE does. Unfortunately SE only gave us scraps and scarce details that begged even more questions. In the case of Keepers, all we ever got regarding sexuality and mating was the description that they are matriarchal and that males are rare. Few conclusions can be drawn from so little canon info, Keepers being monogamous isn't one of them.

 

Consider this, Miqo'te males are born very rarely (there is ONE that we get to see in game), if they paired monogamously with females there wouldn't be enough males to pair with, and as a result the Keepers would have passed into obscurity long ago.

 

 

 

 

 

I can think of 5 npc males found in game off the top of my head. If we compare the number seen in the U tribe(not Keepers I know) We see 3 Males but we also don't see a large group of females, in fact I don't think we even see ten there. So even among the Sun Seekers there is not as much of a huge gap and keepers are explicitly stated to only slightly favor more females.

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I think part of the trouble we might be having is that we are trying to stuff cat-people into a human cultural view. Among humans its considered bad for people to be promiscuous, at least in most cultures. Cats however do not share that view point. They go into heat and they go off and find a likely bed-buddy for a few minutes to half an hour.

 

 

 

 

Compare the sexual activities and mores of Bonobos(humanity's closest relatives) and humans. I don't think one can make an argument about the way animals work and the way a sapient race would end up.

[Naunet]

I think part of the trouble we might be having is that we are trying to stuff cat-people into a human cultural view. Among humans its considered bad for people to be promiscuous, at least in most cultures. Cats however do not share that view point. They go into heat and they go off and find a likely bed-buddy for a few minutes to half an hour.

 

Miqo'te are not cats.

[allgivenover]

I can think of 5 npc males found in game off the top of my head...

 

Whoops, meant to type that we see one KEEPER male in game, not one Miqo'te male period. We actually get to see 4 Seekers and 1 Keeper.

 

...we also don't see a large group of females, in fact I don't think we even see ten there...

 

There's quite a number of females at the Forgotten Springs camp, and that doesn't include the FATE there that spawns many more unnamed females to aid in the defense against a worm attack at the gate. I haven't counted them, but there's certainly more than ten and less than fifty. There are three males at the camp, one Nunh patriarch and two young males aspiring to Nunh. The fourth Seeker male in game can be found in Vesper bay. Couple this with the fact that you find Seeker and Keeper females in abundance in ALL of the city states, with very, very few males (in fact, none can be found inside the city-states at all) we come to some fairly solid reasoning that Miqo'te males are just rare all around.

 

...So even among the Sun Seekers there is not as much of a huge gap and keepers are explicitly stated to only slightly favor more females...

 

It's explicitly stated that males are born less frequently, but not that the frequency is 'only slight' (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/61150-Miqo-te-Naming-Conventions), the text reads: Though there are ten suffixes listed above, rarely do even the largest Keeper of the Moon families have more than two or three sons. This is not by choice. Nature merely sees to it that more females are born to this race. The wording is ambiguous how many more females are born than males, but as I wrote above, we can draw reasonable conclusions about it.

 

If we must choose a ratio, I'd guess the chances of a Miqo'te child being male are no greater than 1 in 4, and I feel even that is being generous given how scarce they are in game.

 

EDIT: Hunted down the Japanese naming convention page, which states that male births are low. "※元々、男性が生まれる確率が低いため、10人もの男児が生まれることなど、事実上ほとんどありませんが、伝統として決められてはいる状態です。" It also says that the chance of using all ten suffixs for Keeper male names is virtually impossible due to this low male birth rate.

 

Or its a way of saying age. "3 young women and 1 adult male" just that Keepers consider sexual activity to be a part of adult quality. This does not mean they use the Seeker method and could easily hold more closely to monogomous relationships.

 

Then why didn't they write "three young women and a young man"? Breeding male is a very deliberate use there, but you also mistake me. I didn't mean that Keepers follow Seeker mating rules, I meant that they have breeding males but unfortunately we have no details beyond that wording and logical thinking about what a society lacking in males would be like. My way around this was to separate my character from his traditional family long before considerations for breeding were ever on the table for him. I'll wait for SE to give us more about this (if they ever do) rather than decide how it would work myself. If anything comes to light that's contrary to what I have, then his history can be modified to match it.

 

It's possible there are anomalous modern Miqo'te Keepers that favor monogamy, and I'm certainly not saying you're wrong if your Miqo'te character desires it, and in fact that idea of a male all to themselves may be rather attractive to a Miqo'te female. This difference of opinion on the matter has made for great RP between my Keeper boy and other Miqo'te. I'm only stating that finding monogamy among traditional Miqo'te, Keeper or Seeker, is hard to swallow from a logical standpoint.

[Jomoru]

 

It's possible there are anomalous modern Miqo'te Keepers that favor monogamy, and I'm certainly not saying you're wrong if your Miqo'te character desires it, and in fact that idea of a male all to themselves may be rather attractive to a Miqo'te female. This difference of opinion on the matter has made for great RP between my Keeper boy and other Miqo'te. I'm only stating that finding monogamy among traditional Miqo'te, Keeper or Seeker, is hard to swallow from a logical standpoint.

 

 

 

 

I would counter that if Monagamy were such an alien concept to the Miqote(vs particular miqote enclaves) we wouldn't see them easily slipping into cross racial relationships. Similarly we see a clear monagamous romantic relationship in the Arcanist quests cross clan.

 

Now this could be symbolic of the fact that the miqote of the cities have thrown off the ways of their ancestors, that they have adapted and assimilated. It could mean that the tribal ways are dying(such is implied even in the Forgotten springs line).

 

Perhaps that could be a point of division those who want to keep to the "logical" and those who find it outdated and primative.

[allgivenover]

I think you're correct there, it doesn't seem likely that tribal ways will persist much longer, and it's entirely possible for modern Miqo'te to find themselves in a monogamous situation. I'm just saying traditionally it was likely a no go.

 

But you mistake me again, I'm not saying that Miqo'te being promiscuous is a logical or correct way for them be, I'm saying that through logical reasoning we can conclude that it just didn't work that way for them traditionally. What's right or wrong or outdated or primitive is immaterial to that point.

[Jomoru]

I think you're correct there, it doesn't seem likely that tribal ways will persist much longer, and it's entirely possible for modern Miqo'te to find themselves in a monogamous situation. I'm just saying traditionally it was likely a no go.

 

But you mistake me again, I'm not saying that Miqo'te being promiscuous is a logical or correct way for them be, I'm saying that through logical reasoning we can conclude that it just didn't work that way for them traditionally. What's right or wrong or outdated or primitive is immaterial to that point.

 

The problem I am seeing here is that you are falling into a modern and very western view of gender and biological sex.

 

Gender is a social construct, it is a position now in the Modern west it is based almost purely on biology. This is not necissarily the case in many cultures. I'll use the Bugis as an example. They are a fairly traditional people who still hold to shamanic views(along with embracing Islam) who divide themselves up into 5 genders using just standard human biology. I can point out other traditional societies that had other gender roles outside what western society creates(most of which we would equate with homosexuality)

 

Now with the biology of the Miqote one can imagine they might develop all sorts of complex gender roles. Now among humans on earth there are studies indicating advantages for homosexuality on a biological end. Now Irl that's more about male homosexuality than female, but we are dealing with fictional cat people so I think adapting the strategies to swap biological sexes would make sense with a tendency to have large numbers of females vs males.

 

Thus while you say that it seems logical that Male miqote naturally be promiscuous, while there is a distinct possibility that rather than copying the Seeker model the Keepers might take from other real world traditions on gender. This may even vary from enclave to enclave as traditionally Moon figures are fluid and changing various enclaves would by my thoughts be much less rigid about universal culture vs the Seekers(along with having many smaller groups)

[allgivenover]

I actually think that both genders among Keepers would have a tendency to promiscuity, not just the males. And I also think bisexuality among females would be so commonplace that they wouldn't even require a word to describe it as anything different from the norm as we do. This promiscuity doesn't mean they would go about trying to lay with as many people as possible, or be vulgar, shallow, or shy away from emotional connections. I just don't think they'd have the same ideas about exclusivity or marriage that more contemporary cultures do, at least not until those ideas were transmitted to them from other cultures. Simply from the fact that there are just not enough males to go around. If you'd rather call it them being polyamorous rather than promiscuous, that's fine, that word might have a more positive bend to it.

 

Not following you when it comes to your claim that I'm applying modern western views of biological sex and gender to Miqo'te. I'm a poor fit when compared to those ideas myself, in fact there's pictures of me crossdressing - and not as a joke - in the real life picture thread on this board. As for how Miqo'te view gender and biological sex? It's anyone's guess really. SE gives us nothing on the issue. I'd wager that it's rather binary given that the game is developed by a Japanese company.

[Jomoru]

I actually think that both genders among Keepers would have a tendency to promiscuity, not just the males. And I also think bisexuality among females would be so commonplace that they wouldn't even require a word to describe it as anything different from the norm as we do. This promiscuity doesn't mean they would go about trying to lay with as many people as possible, or be vulgar, shallow, or shy away from emotional connections. I just don't think they'd have the same ideas about exclusivity or marriage that more contemporary cultures do, at least not until those ideas were transmitted to them from other cultures. Simply from the fact that there are just not enough males to go around. If you'd rather call it them being polyamorous rather than promiscuous, that's fine, that word might have a more positive bend to it.

 

Not following you when it comes to your claim that I'm applying modern western views of biological sex and gender to Miqo'te. I'm a poor fit when compared to those ideas myself, in fact there's pictures of me crossdressing - and not as a joke - in the real life picture thread on this board. As for how Miqo'te view gender and biological sex? It's anyone's guess really. SE gives us nothing on the issue. I'd wager that it's rather binary given that the game is developed by a Japanese company.

 

 

Exclucivity is not a recent thing. The majority of traditional socities studied made use of it. The only societies i can think of that had more relaxed patterns such as the Polynesians still had concepts of marriage and pair bonding. Just if someone wanted to go off and sleep with someone else they had to tell their partner. Pair bonding has proven to be highly advantageous towards propigating the species. The major exception has been harems and even then they were highly exclusive.

 

 

As for why I said it seems very western the whole idea of biological extientialism that seems to underline your premise has always come off as ignoring many traditional groups and building from the often false premise taken by many who uphold western gender norms as biologically based imparatives.

[Lament]

A minor thing - but Keepers are said in lore to typically group in small communities of a few families. It's very likely each community has its own hierarchy/structure/customs, with some similarities between them.

 

I mean, the one Seeker tribe we see spits in the face of lore, with the Nunh also acting as leader (which lore says is rare). It's safe to say even among Seeker tribes there may be variety in societal roles, and there are only twenty-something of them. There are probably countless more Keeper communities, so really, you can pretty much make up your own headcanon and run with it.

 

Keep in mind humans are all the same species, yet we've managed to fragment into countless different cultures, and then subcultures within those cultures, and then groups within those... we may all be driven by certain primal instincts (eat, drink, breed, sleep, survive), but how each culture will approach them is different.

 

Few males does imply fewer breeding options, but there are so many ways it could play out that I don't think one's more right than the other.

[Ildur]

Interestingly, there is another Miqo'te tribe in the game: the Coeurlclaw Poachers in the Black Shroud which, if I recall correctly, are Keepers of the Moon. Yet there is one FATE where a male is their leader. All tribal Miqo'te societies currently despicted in the game contradict lore.

[Chisae]

Or perhaps they are there to show that just because the Almighty Lore says something doesnt mean that everyone falls into step with it.

 

I actually think that both genders among Keepers would have a tendency to promiscuity, not just the males. And I also think bisexuality among females would be so commonplace that they wouldn't even require a word to describe it as anything different from the norm as we do. This promiscuity doesn't mean they would go about trying to lay with as many people as possible, or be vulgar, shallow, or shy away from emotional connections. I just don't think they'd have the same ideas about exclusivity or marriage that more contemporary cultures do, at least not until those ideas were transmitted to them from other cultures. Simply from the fact that there are just not enough males to go around. If you'd rather call it them being polyamorous rather than promiscuous, that's fine, that word might have a more positive bend to it.

 

I agree with you on this... if males are few and far between in your species, you're going to find love and companionship with the same sex. Daughters and the occasional son are probably raised by their mother and her female-mate-wife-husband-lover-whatever (lol).

 

Speculation again, but I like the idea, and it logically fits in with the snippets of lore we were given.