Regarding IC Dragoons.

[Knight Kat]

I know this has been talked about already. However, most of the recent discussion has been as sort of a side discussion in the White Mage and Ishgardian threads.

 

I searched the forums for any threads that -directly- talked about the plausibility of ICly being a Dragoon. I found an old one!

 

http://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthread.php?tid=4373&highlight=Dragoon

 

I wanted to show this to the many many new people who have joined the community since then. Many people have expressed interest in being IC Dragoons. And I also have something to add.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My interpretation:

According to the NPC, Dragoons are elite Ishgard knights. With an IC means to receive the training, I see no reason why someone can't become an IC Dragoon (or at least have the skills of one).

 

It is the leader of the Dragoons (The Azure Dragoon) who is chosen by the Eye relic. This Azure Dragoon is the only one who has the special powers of a dragon. Thus, being an IC Azure Dragoon is probably a no no.

 

Now, I have not had a chance to read all the dialogue and lore regarding Dragoons, but what this NPC said seems pretty clear to me.

 

As for what a "standard" Dragoon would be capable of, I have no idea. That seems rather vague to me. Obviously though, they would not have the same power as the Azure Dragoon.

[Artorias D'Argent]

heh they are very similar to Jedi in the sense that they have to be mindful of their emotions or fall to the dark side.  On the topic of the Azure Dragoon, I'm not sure if he has been given more power than any of the other Dragoons.  I always thought that it was just a title and that he was just better skilled than the others.  At least that's the way I was portraying it.

[Rook]

As mentioned above, the Azure Dragoon is the strongest dragoon, but doesn't necessarily receive any special powers.

 

All the powers you receive during the course of the DRG questline are granted by the soul crystal that Alberic gave to you, implying that the many dragoons that Ishgard is famous for all possess these powers.

 

The limiting factor on whether or not one can play a dragoon IC is how they learned. Alberic only teaches the Adventurer because the Eye reacts to them. Ishgard is a very isolated and xenophobic place. They all intensely distrust outsiders. If you can think of a reason for your non-Ishgardian character to be taught by an elite knight of the Holy See and given a Soul of the Dragoon (without which training would take years), go for it.

 

Just keep that aspect in mind.

[TheLastCandle]

*leans on Kiht companionably with a grin* Yvelont may not be the Azure Dragoon, but he won't steer Kiht wrong.

[TheWizard]

Here is the dialogue for the first DRG job quest.

 

http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Eye_of_the_Dragon/Plot_Details

 

The most important tidbit from this would be:

 

Alberic: The Eye is no ordinary relic. It harbors the power of the dragon, which it bestows upon a single chosen soul─the strongest and wisest dragoon.

 

Alberic: He who is chosen is possessed of the power to fight our mortal foes, the dragons of Dravania, on equal footing, soaring the firmament as if it were an extension of the land. That man is known as the Azure Dragoon.

 

Alberic: The Azure Dragoon is the light of hope for all Ishgardians, and the paragon of all dragoons.

 

 

What this points to is that the Azure Dragoon, and ONLY the Azure Dragoon has the power to uber-jump which is "the power to fight our mortal foes, the dragons of Dravania, on equal footing, soaring the firmament as if it were an extension of the land."

 

So normal dragoons cannot perform these mid-air feats of combat and are likely elite Ishgardian lance-knights specifically trained to fight dragons and wouldn't receive a Soul Crystal.

[Crisiet]

I believe I posted in the Ishgard thread about this. I'll just say what I said there about my interpretation of it.

 

A group of Ishgardian knights trained to slay dragons. The Azure Dragoon is the only super-special one.

 

I don't think powers like the super jumps are available to all dragoons. In the quest-line, the reason you get these powers is because the eye responds to you (because you're super special in the quest-lines, lol). The soul crystal you receive is one that belonged to Alberic, the former Azure Dragoon and the powers are granted to the Azure Dragoon in order to let them fight the dragons on the same ground, so to speak. That is not to say however that the regular Dragoons aren't powerful or skilled fighters, they're just not magically enhanced.

 

So with IC access to training it's entirely possible to become a dragoon, but you'll only be super-powered if the eye has 'chosen' you. 

 

IC I've chosen to ignore jump abilities and anything else that looks obviously magically enhanced. Everything else is either suitable or only requires a teeny tiny amount of suspension of disbelief. That's just how I choose to go about it though!

[Sounsyy]

Dragoons in XIV lore are basically dragon slayers. For an Ishgardian Knight to become a Dragoon, that Knight has to slay a dragonkin and prove the kill to the Holy See. So "Dragoon" is just an honorary title. You don't have to wield a lance or have special jumpy powers. If you want to find out a little more about regular dragoon lore, go talk to some of the NPCs out in Whitebrim. There's one npc in particular who gives you a quest asking you to find the dragon he claims he slew and bring back a bone to prove it to the Holy See so he can become a Dragoon. 

 

The Azure Dragoon is something completely different though. Seemingly once a generation the prized Eye of Nidhogg chooses an individual who is destined to "slay Nidhogg." However, this is not a blessing as it is a curse. The Eye of Nidhogg exerts all of its corruptive force over the individual and attempts to sway them into becoming the Dragon's servant. Which is why Dragoon's wear the Drachen Mail. The armor helps protect them from the influences of the Eye. There is most definitely a connection formed between Azure Dragoon and Nidhogg, but what exactly that connection entails is not entirely clear.

[TheWizard]

I believe I posted in the Ishgard thread about this. I'll just say what I said there about my interpretation of it.

 

A group of Ishgardian knights trained to slay dragons. The Azure Dragoon is the only super-special one.

 

I don't think powers like the super jumps are available to all dragoons. In the quest-line, the reason you get these powers is because the eye responds to you (because you're super special in the quest-lines, lol). The soul crystal you receive is one that belonged to Alberic, the former Azure Dragoon and the powers are granted to the Azure Dragoon in order to let them fight the dragons on the same ground, so to speak. That is not to say however that the regular Dragoons aren't powerful or skilled fighters, they're just not magically enhanced.

 

So with IC access to training it's entirely possible to become a dragoon, but you'll only be super-powered if the eye has 'chosen' you. 

 

IC I've chosen to ignore jump abilities and anything else that looks obviously magically enhanced. Everything else is either suitable or only requires a teeny tiny amount of suspension of disbelief. That's just how I choose to go about it though!

 

That's essentially what I said. Makes being a 'normal' dragoon much for feasible.

[Ildur]

Squee's lore is completely at odds with their own mechanics, as usual.

 

But anyway, I explain (common) dragoons uber-jumping powers the same way I explain why a pugilist can hit a magitek golem with his fists and win: aether (or chakra, if you are technical about monks). Basically, all skills beyond the auto-attack are magically enhaced attacks. That's why they are so flashy. A man with a small sword fighting a rock golem isn't just attacking with a tiny blade: he's using aether to improve it. In a way, this implies all weapons are magical foci, but some are better than others depending on their purpose. This also explains why cross-class skills exist (thought there's the old "gameplay balance" to take into account for that).

So I see no reason why an IC dragoon couldn't use their jumps ICly. It's just aether and maybe carefully constructed boots or armor to allow the aether to flow correctly into a jump and not kill the wearer when they come back to the ground. The Azure Dragoon can jump much, much higher (and maybe faster). But since he is not any particular PC as far as the roleplaying community is concerned, we don't really have to worry about it. This is more fun and interesting than Squee's LOL u r speshiul! plot that contradicts its own game mechanics, anyway.

[Lost River]

Aether manipulation, Chakra and such makes it suitable. Just no one is the Azure Dragoon; but you can all be jumpy sorts of Dragoons; I see why not. As for the Azure Dragoon questline; for some reason, this game comes to mind; Why couldn't they have wings too?

 

 

As for such, I wouldn't say it more of a focus mastery; but mastery of the self. Dedication, natural aptitude (in spellcasters), or a mixture of both. So in such, those who are adventures and such (the PCs), their aptitude to manipulate aether is stronger.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Better link for more awesome musics.

[Knight Kat]

Most of you have made some great points!

Loving all the input thus far.

 

Aaaaaaand Lost River has got me thinking about music now....

 

So here are the songs I think of when I think about Dragoons.

 

[video=youtube]

 

 

[video=youtube]

[Artorias D'Argent]

Squee's lore is completely at odds with their own mechanics, as usual.

 

But anyway, I explain (common) dragoons uber-jumping powers the same way I explain why a pugilist can hit a magitek golem with his fists and win: aether (or chakra, if you are technical about monks). Basically, all skills beyond the auto-attack are magically enhaced attacks. That's why they are so flashy. A man with a small sword fighting a rock golem isn't just attacking with a tiny blade: he's using aether to improve it. In a way, this implies all weapons are magical foci, but some are better than others depending on their purpose. This also explains why cross-class skills exist (thought there's the old "gameplay balance" to take into account for that).

So I see no reason why an IC dragoon couldn't use their jumps ICly. It's just aether and maybe carefully constructed boots or armor to allow the aether to flow correctly into a jump and not kill the wearer when they come back to the ground. The Azure Dragoon can jump much, much higher (and maybe faster). But since he is not any particular PC as far as the roleplaying community is concerned, we don't really have to worry about it. This is more fun and interesting than Squee's LOL u r speshiul! plot that contradicts its own game mechanics, anyway.

 

I totally agree with you Ildur.  Squenix really shit the bed on the lore for the classes in this game.  That lore may have worked for a single player game, which would be ok, but they totally messed up with the fact that there are going to be many dragoons as opposed to one.  In all honesty I can't see myself RPing a dragoon without being able to use the powers they come with, that's like playing a Black Mage who can't cast offensive spells, a Summoner who cannot summon or a White Mage who can't heal.  In my opinion that's just plain stupid.  I for one am definitely taking your suggestion on this.  I have it that my Artorias draws power from a dragon, but it's not Nidhogg.

 

Whoever wrote lore on the classes should be slapped upside the head and fired

[esperkitty]

I agree with Artorias in this matter. ICly, my character can perform the standard Jump, Elusive Jump, and Spineshatter Dive moves. Dragonfire Dive, the ultimate jump, I believe is an Azure only move (though I will use it OOCly!!). Although, Kiana is able to pull these moves off due to years and years of training and honing herself. Is it completely natural? No. Normal people can't pull those off. Butt his is a world of magic, where aether flows, and aether can enhance (yes, mental justification for dragoons having an MP pool when we do not cast spells at all).

 

I've never been keen on the idea of everyone having a small gem that grants these powers. Makes it all feel cheap and Caracker Jack box-like.

[FreelanceWizard]

I've never been keen on the idea of everyone having a small gem that grants these powers. Makes it all feel cheap and Caracker Jack box-like.

 

It's a little tangential, but personally, I've never treated the Soul Stones for any Job as an IC thing for PCs (sure, some NPC might hold one and be the Job Of Legend, but it's not my character). As "things only one person can have," I feel they fall into the category of story elements RPers are able to and should make generic or ignore -- just like how you get your airship pass or magitek armor in the MSQ.

[Lost River]

So the general consensus for me is, aside from the Azure Dragoon, you can be a Dragoon, use those abilities and such due to aether manipulation. As for White Mages, the NPC(PC) hero of the story was the first and they are now teaching white healing en masse to those capable and understanding of its power due to the new need of it.

 

Its an age of conflict after a previous devastation, so the whole limitation of White Mages is silly and I treat the plotline as "first of many", as for Dragoon, as its an one item that makes you it; you cannot be the leader, BUUUUUUT you can still be a Dragoon with all the jumpy powers you can handle.

[TheLastCandle]

I agree with Artorias in this matter. ICly, my character can perform the standard Jump, Elusive Jump, and Spineshatter Dive moves. Dragonfire Dive, the ultimate jump, I believe is an Azure only move (though I will use it OOCly!!). Although, Kiana is able to pull these moves off due to years and years of training and honing herself. Is it completely natural? No. Normal people can't pull those off. Butt his is a world of magic, where aether flows, and aether can enhance (yes, mental justification for dragoons having an MP pool when we do not cast spells at all).

 

I've never been keen on the idea of everyone having a small gem that grants these powers. Makes it all feel cheap and Caracker Jack box-like.

 

Agree with all of this, including the Soul Gem bit.

 

Yvelont has little concept of magick (he'll never ICly be a Conjurer/Arcanist/Thaumaturge) and doesn't attribute the Dragoon abilities to Aetheric manipulation at all - though OOC I absolutely think this is the case. In training Kiht, he puts this into terms he understands, explaining how to "focus" and so on to successfully perform the Jump.

[FreelanceWizard]

The whole "innate manipulation of Aether" thing (like Charms, for those who're familiar with Exalted ) is an interpretation I like a great deal, personally. It explains how adventurers can stand toe to toe with Garleans and their highly advanced equipment, how they can fell dragons with swords, and how they can do all the insane moves you see Archers and Marauders pulling off.

 

The really intriguing part of that to me is how it opens up a lot of doors for RP. Can magic be used to alter, enhance, or serve the place of those sorts of "innate" powers? How do they interact with magical force? Is a highly trained mage better or worse at picking those skills up? Is there a way to merge the effects of spell magic with this intuitive magic? Quite a few conversations can be had on the topic, with characters theorizing over snifters of Ul'dahn brandy.

[Dravus]

I decided to play it safe and tried to avoid defining my character as an actual class to allow for a lot more flexibility. He wields a lance as his weapon of choice but that doesn't automatically make him a dragoon. He doesn't leap through the air or cause fire to rain down upon his foes. 

 

A lot of people criticise the core classes as being rigid but there's really nothing forcing your character to follow the main story or job quests when creating one's character. There's Garleans, mercenaries, pirates, bandits and even cultists that fight with a lance. I think the game does an excellent job of providing the tools for role-players to use to reflect those particular roles if they so wish.

 

So with that in mind if people do decide to have their character be a dragoon IC then I expect them to do it well. It's meant to be rather unusual, rare and prestigious.

[TheLastCandle]

The whole "innate manipulation of Aether" thing (like Charms, for those who're familiar with Exalted ) is an interpretation I like a great deal, personally. It explains how adventurers can stand toe to toe with Garleans and their highly advanced equipment, how they can fell dragons with swords, and how they can do all the insane moves you see Archers and Marauders pulling off.

 

The really intriguing part of that to me is how it opens up a lot of doors for RP. Can magic be used to alter, enhance, or serve the place of those sorts of "innate" powers? How do they interact with magical force? Is a highly trained mage better or worse at picking those skills up? Is there a way to merge the effects of spell magic with this intuitive magic? Quite a few conversations can be had on the topic, with characters theorizing over snifters of Ul'dahn brandy.

 

Yvelont would be intrigued by the posit, and it might open doors to further aetheric study - which could be interesting. But I prefer to do my theorizing over drams of Sea Wolf whiskey.

[Aya]

I know how to wield a lance, how to dance with it, and how to make jump attacks.  Sometimes I unconsciously mimic the Dragoons I watched practicing when I was a child.

 

I don't think I am a dragoon, but I don't think there's any particular reason I cannot fight like one

[Knight Kat]

I see no reason why aether manipulation can't be used to explain a "standard" Dragoon's abilities. If that is a sort of consensus then I am fine with it, and will even have my character learn those abilities too.

 

However, I do not think the lore should be ignored altogether. Like Theodric said:

So with that in mind if people do decide to have their character be a dragoon IC then I expect them to do it well. It's meant to be rather unusual, rare and prestigious.

 

I agree with that, but the problem is, "doing it well" is a highly subjective term. That is why the lore is there; it sets boundaries (god help me I sound like a lore hound).

 

It is said time and again in countless NPC dialogues that the Azure Dragoon has the power of a DRAGON. The Azure Dragoon can leap into the sky and fight amongst the clouds. Should any other Dragoon really be able to do that? If someone were to ICly leap high into the sky (like Superman) in front of me I just don't think I could take them seriously. Jumping from rooftop to rooftop, jumping onto a high boulder, leaping over a foes head to land on the other side of them, leaping into a foe and kicking off of them into a back-flip to land in a previous spot, sounds fine to me. With the previously mentioned aether manipulation and training, I can see that being possible. But if anyone did "ima jump this mountain in a single leap!"; sorry, I just can't bring myself to ICly acknowledge that.

[TheWizard]

I see no reason why aether manipulation can't be used to explain a "standard" Dragoon's abilities. If that is a sort of consensus then I am fine with it, and will even have my character learn those abilities too.

 

However, I do not think the lore should be ignored altogether. Like Theodric said:

So with that in mind if people do decide to have their character be a dragoon IC then I expect them to do it well. It's meant to be rather unusual, rare and prestigious.

 

I agree with that, but the problem is, "doing it well" is a highly subjective term. That is why the lore is there; it sets boundaries (god help me I sound like a lore hound).

 

It is said time and again in countless NPC dialogues that the Azure Dragoon has the power of a DRAGON. The Azure Dragoon can leap into the sky and fight amongst the clouds. Should any other Dragoon really be able to do that? If someone were to ICly leap high into the sky (like Superman) in front of me I just don't think I could take them seriously. Jumping from rooftop to rooftop, jumping onto a high boulder, leaping over a foes head to land on the other side of them, leaping into a foe and kicking off of them into a back-flip to land in a previous spot, sounds fine to me. With the previously mentioned aether manipulation and training, I can see that being possible. But if anyone did "ima jump this mountain in a single leap!"; sorry, I just can't bring myself to ICly acknowledge that.

 

Yeah I can buy into the idea of aether manipulation coupled with intense endurance and acrobatic training to allow for impressive combat feats that dragoons are known for, and certainly this kind of training wouldn't be offered to 'normal' people so it would make the dragoon combat style impressive to watch.

 

And in regards to the Dragoon Soul Crystal, it is likely a manifestation or link to the Eye of Nidhogg which chooses an Azure Dragoon. Its obvious they are linked because both the Eye AND the Soul Crystal react to you in the quest line which proves they are linked so why would EVERY dragoon have one of them then? They wouldn't do anything for a normal person so unlike the soul stones for Scholars and Summoners I don't feel that other Ishgardian dragoons would have soul stones and are reserved for the 'special snowflake' quality of the Azure Dragoon.

[Steel Wolf]

When it comes to VERY specific jobs like the Dragoon, I always liked to treat the combat animations as mere representations of other attacks.  A jump or any number of jump moves could be re-interpreted IC'ly as a very powerful leaping attack that doesn't have the user dropping down on an enemy's head in a ball of hellfire.

 

Most of Steel's moves are ignored IC'ly--or, at least, the majority of the effects are.  Some, like Flash, are generated by aether and her training with the Sultansworn, but other moves like Spirits Within and Savage Blade don't have the level of flashiness in my mind's eye.

 

Perhaps that could be another way to look at things?

 

...although, now reading that, that doesn't particularly help the IC Dragoons as referenced in the thread title, does it? <.<;;