Melkire

That's the implied gist/connotation/whatever that was extrapolated from a statement that Yoshi made. Re: that statement, somehow no one thought this important enough to write down in their translations, instead summarizing Yoshi's exposition and leaving this bit out. >_> Skip to approximately 23:00 in the video below. "So you have the classes in FFXIV, they fit in with the story. Each class has their own guild and their own history. When we're thinking of creating a new class and a class that would have its own guild, you think thieves and that's more like petty thievery; you want something more solid." People have been taking that, running with it, and I've been seeing/hearing arguments that go, "you can't have a thief in XIV, because thieving is bad!" EDIT: Yes, I know that, not even a minute later, Yoshi goes on to state that rogues have evolved from thieves into this miniature society with a "thief history".

As a side note to the overall discussion, Throw's been more of a Ninja skill than a Thief one, and it sorta-kinda already exists in XIV's PvP. =T http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Weapon_Throw

My counter-argument to "semantics" and "non-issue" is that, if it truly doesn't matter... why aren't they calling it Thief? I'd say it's because it does matter, and the distinction between the two, however seemingly minor, has a part in further developing the setting. It's like WH40K fluff, in a way. Does it matter to the tabletop? No. Does it matter to the setting? Yes.

Maybe. That's why I wanted others' input. I'm partial, so my viewpoint is skewed due to bias. In other words, because such a guild would deviate from the same newcomer-friendly and readily-found structure that, OoC, allows for players to easily locate them, sign up, etc. ... then the developers won't bother? That's understandable, if lazy. Then again, many a development team prove lazy these days... not that the XIV team is necessarily that. Just... wait, do they even have a lore department? They do, right? Lore-wise, the existence of an officially sanctioned rogue's guild could possibly come, in time, to obviate any semblance of organized crime. Wouldn't take more than a few sentences from someone like Merlwyb to establish that as canon. Not that those of us who're adamant on roleplaying thieves will care. It's just... irritating? Irritating.

Wh.. when did you.. -THROWS UP HIS ARMS.- You'll never learn, will you?

The original concept class was "Thief" in just about every RPG on the market. But that name has the negative connotation of someone who steals private property. Obviously a bad thing in a capitalistic society. Therefore the Politically Correct term is now "Rogue" which is more of a scoundrel and less of an out-right criminal. Political correctness is a pox on today's society, especially when it starts negatively impacting something as harmless as entertainment. inb4 someone brings up the Columbine/Doom incident and I tear that decades-old fallacious argument into shreds.

The bane of every end-game player, mob, and boss in FFXIV... can we please also have Angel Whisper, Bad Breath, LV? S-Flare, Matra Magic, Night, Twister, Stare, and Roulette, please? I really, really liked the FFTA rendition of Blue Mages; can you tell?

So by now everyone in this community is (or ought to be) aware that the FFXIV development team is coming out with the Rogue class and the advanced Ninja job. Unfortunately, there was developer commentary, relayed by Yoshi P, no less, that heavily implied that thieves, as opposed to rogues, won't work in a setting like XIV's. Some folks, myself included, find this commentary disconcerting, not only because Thief is a staple of Final Fantasy (been around since the first game, pops up repeatedly, nearly as iconic as WHM/BLM) but because of the resulting impact on flavor and consequently on roleplay in this setting. The disconnect between thieves and the XIV setting, as I understand it (and I am paraphrasing) seems to come down to two concepts: 1. Thieves cannot be heroes. 2. The city-states of Eorzea would not tolerate a thieves' guild. The first is a common enough extrapolation from commentary (if someone could find me the relevant video of the E3 interview, I would appreciate it; it seems to have not made the transition from livestream to recorded video, or else I can't find it) that thieves are somehow not heroic; why would anyone choose to be a thief when they are the main character, the hero? This comes back around to XIV's "Chosen Hero" narrative. It's an understandable stance to take given that choice of narrative, even if it's dismissive and a case of painting with broad strokes: thieves have, on numerous occasions including within the FF series, been romanticized as heroes. To throw out the entire robbery aspect implies that stealing and heroism are somehow mutually exclusive. The second is so mind-bogglingly narrow a view that I, personally, can't comprehend how they came to such a conclusion. True, the city-states of Limsa Lominsa, Ul'dah, and Gridania would never stand for an officially sanctioned thieves' guild... but who said it had to be officially sanctioned? In the vast majority of fantasy settings, thieves, when they've banded together in some semblance of organization, have been at odds with the authorities of their place of residence. Their guilds, gangs, whatever - they move about. They hide, and then they either keep moving or else they keep to their hidey-holes until they're forced to move. It's disheartening to think that the XIV developers don't believe they could have gone with an unofficial, unsanctioned thieves' guild. It robs the cities of flavor and does the setting a disservice by shrinking the world further, because the argument eventually comes back around to, "oh, well, they wouldn't stand for it, so they'd stomp them out"... which implies that the cities are small enough and the authorities well-manned enough to enforce order on such a large scale. The impact that this implication has on the setting is pervasive: Limsa, for example, is suddenly as small as it now appears to be in 2.x, and the Maelstrom and Yellowjackets have the manpower to shut down any such scandalous activity. So: no pirates, no thieves, etc. Suddenly Limsa is a duller place, as opposed to how it's seen by the roleplayers who've given it so much more character on top of the foundation that Square Enix laid down. There's some hope in the possibility that Thief might be a secondary Job for Rogue, further down the line. Given that it's an iconic staple, this would fit in well with WHM, BLM, WAR (Fighter), PLD (Knight), BRD, NIN, etc. That said, given that NIN is going to be a DPS role, I personally can't see them adding to a class a second Job that will occupy the same role and creative space as the first Job. Thoughts? Opinions? Rebuttals?

Patch notes these day usually hit the Lodestone the night of, if not a day or two sooner.

Yeah that's what I remember reading of a translation from when Ninja and Rogue were announced by Yoshi-P In what setting WOULD a Thieves Guild be welcome, realistically? Look, I get it. I know, I really do, Yoshi. But for a game is essentially love letter to the entire series, saying that one of the staple classes, going as far back as GAME 1, as 'not being welcome' is surprising. There has been a designated Thief class in every single game in one form or another. Steal is a classic action of thieves, even when not called thieves--I could rant about this for hours, but it's more out of confusion and disappointment than anger. Going to make a separate thread for this discussion once I'm on lunch break, instead of letting it fester here.

Roleplayers inhabiting characters who are more about shades of grey than black-and-white. :frustrated:

For 5000 Gil I'll group with 2 ninjas and run them through dungeons. Hello cash flow! Lol You heal, I'll tank. Split the proceeds. 60-40 cause my idea. Done.

For your convenience, the continent of Eorzea. This has some serious misspellings, but it's handy if you're not used to reading the stylized text that XIV uses for its alphabet and still want to get a feel for what's where. Click to enlarge:

For 5000 Gil I'll group with 2 ninjas and run them through dungeons. Hello cash flow! Lol You heal, I'll tank. Split the proceeds.

"Said their printer can'nae print!" "Yes, I've been into the printer file and chosen Canon Bubble Jet Printer. Yes, I've been into the chooser file and chosen printer port, which is the same as the fax modem port which confuses the fuck out of me. Yes, I've chosen the 'A' port paper instead of toilet paper, yeah. I know that. I've chosen the picture of the dog standing straight up instead of the dog lying on its side. What the fuck?! It just - it's five in the morning, it will not print out, there's something definitely wrong with the-- oh, there's an On switch on the printer, is there?"

You think you can defeat me?! Kukukukuku.

Good grief, Siha, some of those books are as big as you are.... :dazed:

I'm not going to point you towards this one Garlean engineer I know who is extremely interested in all things Allagan, since I can't speak for him. Nope. Nuh-uh. Not happening. That would be grossly unprofessional.

*stares closely* ...I can't tell if he's wearing my exact outfit or not, right down to the Guardian's Breeches of Striking... but those are definitely the starting gloves and boots for Hyuran Midlander males. Of course he did, he's the "Relentless Rogue". Wonder how many fates that took.

Won't be able to attend this weekend in any capacity, as I'm out of town. ...IC justification for Rotunda's abscene: scheming. Scheeeeeemiiiiiiiiiing. 8-)

From LeCataire on Reddit:

I PLEAD GUILTY!

That's totes my ugly-as-piss treefort-of-stone in the background! ... ...why am I so proud of such a piece of shit?

This really needs to change. The I.F. are a military, not a law enforcement, organization. Goes against logic to have their LS be dedicated to cross-service law enforcement. Yes, I am going to nag and nag and nag about this every time and everywhere it comes up until something is done about it. Waaaa, don't yell at me ;-; I was just told it was like that! Its for all Thanalanian officials. It was originally intended as an OOC meet and greet pearl for like minded crimefighters. It morphed into its IC comm function later. Since it has I have thought to keep it IF only and make a new one for all of the above types. I'm making it tonight if anyone wants the pearl let me know. Not yellin' at y'all, just sayin'. -makes grabby hand motions at Erik- Gimme.

Stonesthrow, Thanalan. Dry heat was the order of the day. Heavy, oppressive, suffocating weather was always the worst... not that the two assassins standing beneath the dead boughs of the dead tree cared, not that they could understand, not that they could feel it, not that they could ever appreciate the shade that their shelter offered them. But oh, how I wish I could, for I do care! Undeath is unbecoming. Cease your mewling. How could I, last scion of House Dartancours, have come to this? Childish notions of self-importance. Ah, but to taste sweet honey upon my tongue again, to feel the supple flesh of a woman beneath me once more… Lord, I shall win Thy favor, that I may earn my reward! These barbaric petitions to your supposed “god” are appalling. Would that I-- “So, old man. I don’t know about you, but I’m not too pleased with our associate’s decision to stand on the sidelines.” Rotunda Crow - Hyur, midlander, an abomination born of equal parts debauchery and discipline - turned an ugly sneer on his companion for the evening. Oubliette Crow - Elezen, duskwight, a charming atrocity of bad puns and worse banter - leaned comfortably against the bark, the hint of a smile ever present on his face. I hate him. That the Voice granted such a perfect specimen of a figure to such an oaf, whilst I languish in this horrid form… it’s… it’s…. You’ll get over it. "Tall one will get over it." Atrium Crow - Miqo’te, keeper, the fulcrum between professionalism and fanaticism - stalked up to them, throwing furtive glances over his shoulder towards the nearby encampment. “Oh? And tell me my friend, if she is such a threat, why not attack? Cowardice?” “Lack of dedication,” supplied Rotunda absentmindedly. “Lack of loyalty.” “Perhaps another reason, hmm?” “Or perhaps,” retorted the keeper, “this one felt the two of you were enough. You both were very eager to have her. This one was indifferent so long as she paid for her theft.” “Ah, so carelessness.” The midlander stretched as the others bickered: one arm across the chest, then the other; legs spread in a runner’s stance, first this way, then that way. Again and again he stretched, each exercise serving to loosen a joint or a muscle. Limber, that’s what he needed to be for what was to come. Carelessness… would that I could be carefree. You will learn discipline. I will not tolerate otherwise. Out loud, he asked, "Can we at least make good on balancing the scales this time?" Atrium gave him a cool glance. "This one is able. Depends on thee." Rotunda paused as he cracked his neck, just long enough to glare at the bastard. "I gave a mark and two whores over to Thal's keeping last evening. Don't doubt me." "Thy loins and whores--" “You,” Oubliette interjected as he drew his bow, “I do not doubt. Our dull companion is who I question. Suppose we'll find out if he's able or not.” "This one is first among you, forget that fact not." Atrium sneered and motioned with his head. "Come, we have a kill to make." “First, eh? If you say so. Then, ‘Oh First Among Us’, after you.” The keeper snorted as they approached the encampment, the others following in his wake. "The true god has a sense of humor when he restored you." The duskwight chuckled. “Well, someone needs one around you.” "Tall one, cover the right. Old one, the left. No escape." This is because I failed. Outrageous. Now he doubts me. Bastard. I will prove him wrong, take vengeance for the slight. Rotunda circled around to the left as they reached the pitched tents, stalls, and stoked fires of Stonesthrow. With him here, any avenue of retreat to the south towards Nald’s Gate was effectively cut off, leaving their mark no choice but to stand against the other Crows. Stand, fall, and die. His head twitched as he heard a sigh; he turned the corner around one last tent, and there was the mark. Seeker female, by the looks of her, with a rather diminutive male at her side. She sighed. "I'm saying that he's an asset... and someone we can trust." She chuckled. "As strange as that sounds." The midlander’s glanced to the northeast, and he spotted his fellows as they approached the pair. Atrium stood by the fire, eyes blinking for a moment before he spoke. “This one is seeking. Might you be the one he seeks? A name spoken to our God? A Lady Mcbeef?” The female seemed surprised as the keeper bowed. “Are… are you on drugs or something?” Rotunda scoffed in disgust. That the male’s line of sight swept south to take in his position did not escape him… “Are you deaf?” …nor did the male’s grimace at reaching instinctively for a blade that was not there, not riding on his hip. The female turned, as well, still somewhat astonished. "What?" She pointed to Atrium. "Can you translate for him, then, or something?" The Crows blinked, and Rotunda could almost feel the intensity of Atrium’s gaze black eye as it roamed over the female. "Perhaps this one was not clear. Is thy name Lady Mcbeef?" The seeker female nodded to the undead keeper... just as Rotunda’s attention was drawn by something behind him, by the soft scrunching sound of shifting sand. Not something, someone. He couldn’t see them. Didn’t dare turn around, either, that would give away too much. Instead, he focused on the sensation of thick oil in his head and in his gut, the sensation that had welcomed him back to the world after he had heard the Voice calling to him, calling him back from the Void. He cast his thoughts at that oozing core… Oubliette. Behind me. I see them. Let them believe they remain unseen. I’ll keep my eye on them. Don’t get lazy on me, now. Do not worry, old man. We may not see eye to eye, but I respect you as someone who knows what they want. He smirked as his attention returned to the scene unfolding before him. Atrium was sneering again as he continued to address the female. “Thy soul can depart thy body for this one. Can thee do this for this one?” …I would appreciate a debilitating shot. Gut would work nicely, leave me plenty to play with. Of course. Who would I be if I denied you your fun? The female nodded. “It’s hard on short notice but….” She shifted slightly, and there was the distinctive noise of someone breaking wind. “There you go.” Disgusting. Disgusting. Rotunda rolled his eyes and glanced over at Atrium. “Enough is enough, eh?” “Not amusing,” the keeper spat as he rushed forward, freeing his blade from the loop on his belt, a green mist coiling along the length as he neared the female and thrust at her throat. The female shoved the male to one side just as the male dropped low and pushed off for a tackle; she herself hopped back as she drew her sword. “Hey now, no need to be rude.” The male growled as he stumbled, as Atrium’s shield bashed him aside, a finger going to his ear. “Get yer ass here now!” “Rude… rude? This one is amused!” The keeper cackled as he swung again, this time at the female’s sword arm. Chuckling, the midlander drew his own blade as he approached the male who was so focused on Atrium that he’d turned his back on Rotunda. “Tut tut tut.” He stalked forward, blade suddenly sizzling with heat, wisps of smoke curling upward from sudden onyx flames along the length of brass. He swung a backhand swipe down at the male’s legs… “Kage, get out of here!” The male spun on his feet, narrowly avoiding the swipe at his hamstrings… but there came the twang of a bowstring, and a blazing arrow of black flame took him in the shoulder. “Not like this, I’m not!” Rotunda tilted his head as he stared his next kill. From his left eye, his gleaming black eye, he could see the aether swirling through the small seeker’s body, could see how the flow was erratic, how it gravitated towards the earth rather than around the male’s core… "Were you always this tall?" His opponent frowned as steel and brass rang out behind him. “Do I know you?” Another arrow flew, this one between them, and given that warning Rotunda glanced down in time to see the aether beneath them gathering, near-bursting… he backpedaled in time to avoid the worst of it as the earth itself erupted towards him; a few large chunks of rock slammed into his torso, and he rocked back, smiling, as a howl went up behind him. “I can see all the ways you were and are. You… you’re a failure.” “How fucking dare you,” came a cry, “I’m… not… a lady!” Rotunda chuckled again as ‘Kage’ dropped into a low crouch, fists held up to face his foe. There came that revolting wash of energy that felt so much like feathers, and Rotunda’s black eye swelled in its socket as it smoked, wisps of charcoal grey streaming into the air. The midlander grinned as he hefted his blade and licked along along the partially rusted edge. “How many times have you been cut? I’d like to make a new record.” Kage growled, yanking the arrow out of his shoulder with a yowl, his eyes alight with anger and fury. "Try it." The Crow spun his blade by the hilt with a laugh as he darted forward and lept over Kage, just as there came another twang; he turned in midair and came down with a heavy slash.... "Nat, Kage! Looks like we made it in time." "What… have you… two gotten… into now?!" …the male kicked high in the air but missed Rotunda’s chest, ended up taking the blow to the same bleeding shoulder. The layer of air above that shoulder shattered in the sudden blue shine of a shattered lattice, shielding the male from the force of the blow… yet Kage cried out in pain, gasping. "Oh… Twelve… more people… someone hand me a sword, perhaps?!” Rotunda snarled as he glanced past the male towards the new arrivals. Kneeling on the sand was a Hyur woman bleeding profusely from one leg, her hand held over it; green light glowed beneath her palm. Next to her, two Hyur, one young white-haired chap and a rather large, particularly ugly-looking highlander. There came a howl from behind Rotunda as he snapped, “Kill the mark! Balance the scales!” His foes tensed, set themselves for a charge… but he turned and rushed towards the target instead, dashing around a kneeling Atrium at ‘Natalie Mcbeef’, whose foot was pinned to the earth by Atrium’s sword. Rotunda drew his blade back and then thrusted forward in a running stab… "Roegadyn, help Kage and Natalie! You two Hyur, take down that archer!" “Let’s do it, Franz!” “They want to kill her!” There came a growl, and a heavy mass slammed into Rotunda’s legs, spoiling his aim, just as Natalie grabbed Atrium’s sword arm, dragged him forward, and slammed her knee into the keeper’s face. There came the sick shattering crunch of bone as Atrium recoiled, black blood oozing from his ruined face. “Harloth,” Atrium gargled as he fell onto his ass, his own black eye emitting a thick, oily smoke. “My facth!” The female tilted slight to one side just as Rotunda’s blade slammed into her armor point-first, biting through the metal and kissing her flesh before deflecting off. She hissed as the flames burned her skin, but glanced over his shoulder, a look of supreme relief coming over her face. “Iron… try… to stop them….” Rotunda glanced down at the sudden weight dragging at his right leg… and rolled his eyes. “Seriously, child? You need lessons.” He reversed his grip on his sword, then stabbed back and down at Kage’s other shoulder, and the male yowled as he threw an ineffective punch at Rotunda’s crotch… just as the big, hulking mass of a Roegadyn came up behind Atrium, one large hand gripping at the Crow’s shoulder as the Roe settled the curve of the axe along the nape of the keeper’s neck. “Would you rather I be kind?!” came a cry from a deep voice; the highlander, surely, as he and his fellows engaged Oubliette. Underneath that cry was a low, desperate chant, and as the chant reached a crescendo a green light settled over Natalie…. “Do tell me,” grunted the Roegadyn, “does this lot hold any worth in the lives of their friends?” “Kind?!” Atrium gargled loudly as he turned his head, looked up at the Roegadyn, and cackled. “Thy foolish mind thinks the lord of death will let you claim us! Ha!” Laughter, nothing but laughter and… “Finish the target, old one!” Rotunda Crow barked a laugh himself, at Iron, at Natalie, at Kage striking nothing, the flesh there having long rotten away. He twisted his blade in Kage's flesh; the male whimpered, then collapsed into unconsciousness just as Rotunda glanced up at Nat, took a single step forward with his left leg, and seized Natalie by the throat with his free hand, drew her closer… “You’re mistaken. I said nothing of gods and death. I want your life, nothing else,” rumbled the Roe as he seized Atrium by the hair… Natalie held her sword to Rotunda’s chest as he moved closer, the blade sliding through him with nothing to show for it but black ooze dripping down the blade and the undead man’s torso. “What are you,” she hissed through her constricted throat. Rotunda Crow licked his lips, his black eye smoking. "Thal's Dagger." He surged forward, jaw falling open and teeth snapping shut as he bit at the right side of Nat's face… "My soul is not yours to have, fool!" Atrium hissed as he was shoved onto the axe blade, the sharp edge severing skin, tendon, flesh and bone with ease. Black, rotted blood coated the weapon as Atrium shuddered, and then his body faded to smoke, his maniacal laughter filling the air before a strong wind dispersed the cloud into nothing... The female blinked, her eyes filled with fear as she felt the unearthly chill through the man's hand. As her eyes fell shut, she reached down with a hand, drew a dagger and slashed at the man's wrist. Rotunda roared as his left hand was severed; the thing fell to the floor, trailing black ooze and ash. With another cry, he yanked his blade free of Kage's shoulder and thrust it at Nat's face as she fell, the blade passing over her as she collapsed unconscious against the tent... The Crow pulled his right foot free of the male’s arms, stepped over his own lopped-off hand, chill deepening about him as his red eye blazed and his black eye smoked, onyx fire bathing his blade. A burst of water splashed over him to little effect; his sword sizzled in sudden steam as he grit his teeth. "Die," he commanded, as he raised his blade high for a downward swing... The petite young woman from earlier slammed into him, tackled him, knocked him aside. He glanced down at her, snarling. “You were not paid for. But if you desire What Awaits, you can go first.” She rose to her feet, readied herself, fell into an odd stance, mere ilms between her and Rotunda. “Retreat and leave my loved ones, or be sent to the seven hells where you belong.” He glared at her with contempt, drew back his blade… and spun in a roundhouse swing at the fallen Natalie, only for the big armored Roegadyn to fall over her, covering her, presenting his back. Rotunda growled as his sword bit into the Roe’s chainmail, the heat of his flaming blade melting the rings away. "SHE IS FOR WHAT AWAITS! NALD MANDATES, AND WE SECURE FOR THAL! STAND ASIDE!" And then he staggered, and the next thing he knew he was drifting along the wind, gazing down at his headless corpse as it dispersed into smoke, as his hand and fallen brass blade did likewise. Again. Again! How many times must we go through this charade?! I should have won! I had her! Those goddamned bastards! Arrogant. No! Childish. I AM ROTUNDA! I AM THAL’S DAGGER! I-- Petulant. SHUT UP! Fool. Fool. Fool. Fool. Wh-wh-what….? You spent all of our time together ignoring me, dismissing my very existence, because you could not win. Because you lack discipline. You lack strength. So you shoved me to the background like the arrogant, childish, petulant fool you are, as if the inevitable would never come. And now it has. Now I rule, and I. Will. Bury you. You… you… you are… I am Adin Adonis, and I live again.