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The How To Help Newbie RPers In Making Connections Forum


Tiergan

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If nothing needs to change, then nothing needs to change. However the point of this thread is to discuss possible changes.

 

on both sides

 

I'm not disputing that. I just keep seeing the argument tossed around that the community needs to change, which it very well may, and then listing under that a lot of personal shyness as a part of that. I'm saying there's not much the community can do to combat personal shyness. Not that there's nothing that community can do to be more open.

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If nothing needs to change, then nothing needs to change. However the point of this thread is to discuss possible changes.

 

on both sides

 

I'm not disputing that. I just keep seeing the argument tossed around that the community needs to change, which it very well may, and then listing under that a lot of personal shyness as a part of that. I'm saying there's not much the community can do to combat personal shyness. Not that there's nothing that community can do to be more open.

 

Right, I don't expect personal shyness to fall on the community (Hence why I'm against complete hand holding [obviously some hand holding is okay]) but was me actually asking for myself. I want to help shy people, since I'm not shy myself, and want to know from shy people how I can be a little more open and understanding without having to completely be in their face all the time.

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With the speed this topic is going I'm sure that a big part of the messages which are posted by those who take the time to post big messages or are slow aren't read. It's a bit sad :|

 

Aside that, I'll repeat again the same thing :

 

[align=center]You cannot change the community, you can only change yourself as a part of that said community or as someone who wants to break into that said community.[/align]

 

Everytime I read someone talking about "changing the community" I just want to go through the topic it's written, to count how many people wrote there and to compared the amount of people RPing on Balmung. As I said on my previous message, you might change the attitude of 2 or 3 people. Not the community. It's a sad truth but you have to accept it.

 

I want to help shy people' date=' since I'm not shy myself, and want to know from shy people how I can be a little more open and understanding without having to completely be in their face all the time.[/quote']

 

I and some others answered to this, as I said : Too many spam of the topic = unread messages or unanswered to.

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Right, I don't expect personal shyness to fall on the community (Hence why I'm against complete hand holding [obviously some hand holding is okay]) but was me actually asking for myself. I want to help shy people, since I'm not shy myself, and want to know from shy people how I can be a little more open and understanding without having to completely be in their face all the time.

 

I'm going to throw up a disclaimer that I'm an assortment of abnormalities so what helps me might not help other people.

 

Though, I know something that helps me is just being friendly if and when I do apporach. It's a more passive thing, but it goes a long way. I always, always, always, stare at someone's name for a few minutes before I PM them and ask myself if I'm possibly bothering them. (ThenwhenIworkupthecouragetheyendupinaduty.) But I know most of that anxiety can be washed away by just having a friendly response.

 

Maybe a passing hug or hello in PMs. Doesn't have to be everyday. I don't talk to everyone everyday, nor do I expect everyone to talk to me everyday. But mostly it's just being apporachable, really. That does worlds.

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I want to help shy people' date=' since I'm not shy myself, and want to know from shy people how I can be a little more open and understanding without having to completely be in their face all the time.[/quote']

 

I and some others answered to this, as I said : Too many spam of the topic = unread messages or unanswered to.

 

I'm unsure what you're referring to but in that particular instance I was clarifying to Donri what I meant, not asking again. People did in fact answer the question and then he himself answered the question.

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*smiles at the second post*

 

If you want to help someone shy, get to know them OOC, include them in your RP, help them to meet your friends ? Dunno, it works for me and I can only speak for myself.

I kind of bodily throw myself toward them and hold them down until they stop screaming and and sobbing and then punch them with RP until they stop moving.

 

I can't even describe it more accurately than that

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See if I was trying to sell something on the forums at all times, perhaps I would have worded that differently. You're criticizing tone on a post made entirely out of frustration at reading 9 pages of the same RP tips tossed about without consideration to the people who've said "Yeah, that didn't work for me" - A post that had other posts written after it, one of which even offered a personal addendum to one of those because it actually worked one time for me and even when it didn't, some people scrolled up and one of them hit me up in /tell after the fact.

 

To me that feels like going into the Horrible PUGs thread and saying everyone there I would never RP with because their tone is horrible.

 

Also how would I not read anything into those words, especially after that was done to me with the implication that someone who RPs with literally almost anyone would hesitate in RPing with me?

 

* * *

 

That's the thing though - I know my personal approach style is different. I don't care much for knowing everything OOC about a character - I'll approach them on IC merits that my character has observed at the time or has legitimately heard about. That I can accept and just shrug because that's how I prefer my RP to happen.

 

Rumors are fair game though. :D

 

(also i'm caving and putting ze wiki in my characters' Player Search - That's certainly a more elegant solution than having "RPer. Adventurer. Student. Caravan Escort. Not from Eorzea." in there.)

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Right, I don't expect personal shyness to fall on the community (Hence why I'm against complete hand holding [obviously some hand holding is okay]) but was me actually asking for myself. I want to help shy people, since I'm not shy myself, and want to know from shy people how I can be a little more open and understanding without having to completely be in their face all the time.

 

Approach them slowly. Toss some bait out. Don't make any sudden movements. You'll scare them away. :P

 

Um, well. As others have said, just being friendly and approachable goes a long way. Being asked a question or having a way into the conversation helps me a lot personally, because if someone talks to me I literally freeze like an animal and my mind goes blank.

 

If people go that extra mile as Berrod and Domri are doing, by reaching out more than just a 'hello', well that's completely awesome, because it helps break the ice completely. In Berrod's case, there is no escape. Perfect. But that is going the extra step, which I do not expect people to do because it's my problem, not theirs.

 

To be honest though my shyness has developed into something a bit more severe, so I might be way off the mark, but I hope it helps a bit any way.

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See if I was trying to sell something on the forums at all times, perhaps I would have worded that differently. You're criticizing tone on a post made entirely out of frustration at reading 9 pages of the same RP tips tossed about without consideration to the people who've said "Yeah, that didn't work for me" - A post that had other posts written after it, one of which even offered a personal addendum to one of those because it actually worked one time for me and even when it didn't, some people scrolled up and one of them hit me up in /tell after the fact.

 

To me that feels like going into the Horrible PUGs thread and saying everyone there I would never RP with because their tone is horrible.

 

Also how would I not read anything into those words, especially after that was done to me with the implication that someone who RPs with literally almost anyone would hesitate in RPing with me?

 

* * *

 

That's the thing though - I know my personal approach style is different. I don't care much for knowing everything OOC about a character - I'll approach them on IC merits that my character has observed at the time or has legitimately heard about. That I can accept and just shrug because that's how I prefer my RP to happen.

 

Rumors are fair game though. :D

 

(also i'm caving and putting ze wiki in my characters' Player Search)

As I said, it wasn't anything to put you down (I just want to clarify that first). HOWEVER -- it is a thing that happens, and I was honest with my thoughts on it because hey, I'm only human, and other people have those thoughts too. 

 

My intent was to identify yet another one of the reasons things like that happen. Sure, one can use a different tone in another post meant to captivate roleplayers, of course one may behave differently and more cordially in a game, but people still see -that one post- and it may happen that -that one post- is what makes the decision for them; based on experience or otherwise.

 

I've actually been in the situation where people did not want to approach me because my character was too lewd/sexual/forward, and because I cackled loudly and made dirty jokes too often in OOC chat okay so maybe i still do it but i do it around a certain crowd. I had to start presenting myself a little differently. 

 

 

Despite what I said, my views were on THAT post and on my state of mind when I read that post -- I have nothing against you/your character/your toon. That post gave me pause; and for some people that pause may be lasting. It isn't fair, it isn't pretty, but it is one of the things that happens. 

 

 

On the other hand, I could encourage people who are put off to give folks a chance and see (I do that far more often than is wise).

 

Also yes good shamelessly promote the wiki, it really helps. 

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There may be three scenarios here

 

1. Established RP helping New RPer

Well first they want to RP, all you need to do is provide open RP arms, take is slow and be gentle.

As most established folk have other commitments this tends to be moving people to the next stage in a helpful way.

 

2. New RPer meeting New RPer

This can be like finding your own way, a FC or friends help.

 

3. Established meets Established

Buyer beware

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There's something to be said for expectations. I'm not saying keep them low. I'm saying don't have them at all. Just pack them up and leave them at home. Don't expect anything from anyone, except what you yourself bring to the table, and you can't possibly be disappointed. Then any even tiny thing that happens is a plus and nothing is a negative.

 

That's not really possible in reality. Everyone has hopes for things. But keeping expectations out of the search for connections as much as possible, whether being or helping someone new, should help maintain a positive attitude and let it seem less like a chore. If you're working hard at it and expecting responses, especially certain types of or qualities of responses, you're going to be disappointed on any bad day, or series of bad days. If you're enjoying your attempts to make connections and not expecting anything beyond what you put out there, the capacity for a positive outcome increases exponentially.

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When it comes to the ultra-shy folks, I'm not sure if anything more can be done other than finding them a buddy to help shove them into RP (I like to think of it as an RP wingman/wingwoman :V) or just being as patient and welcoming as possible. That's a case where they really just need a good friend to act as the mentor/handholding figure for them to help them get over their anxieties, but at the same time -- no one is really obligated to take on that role for someone either, so it's a tough situation. They need a buddy who doesn't mind being that figure for them until they're more confident.

 

Also, when it comes to those wikis - they don't really do much all on their own after you create them. I personally only look through wikis after someone's done something or written something that caught my eye and made me more curious (or if they look really cool :V). It helps to find a way to sort of subtly attach it to your RP, so sticking it in your search info definitely can help because if you do an RP action that catches someone's interest, they can peek at your search info and then get more insight into your character.

 

I think this is why some folks have had success posting up writing on the forums as well -- people read their stories, get interested, and then poke at the wiki.

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But as I've pointed out before some of the people who lace their words with sugar on this site are among the most spiteful and manipulative individuals in-game and are massive drama magnets. Despite that, their popularity and perceived status as 'gud rp' tends to protect them from any direct criticism.

 

On the other hand, quite a few of the 'blunt' posters who may put forth controversial and unpopular opinions have, in fact, turned out to be some of the friendliest and coolest people I've met thus far.

 

I think the best route to solve any potential misunderstands is really to just get in touch with people in-game or shoot them a private message. I mean, a lot of people parrot the phrase 'communication is important' but that should apply across the board rather than just in regards to IC affairs in my opinion!

 

I just feel like it's more beneficial to do that and come to some sort of compromise/informed opinion of someone through direct interaction rather than reading into people's posts or relying on what other people say about someone.

 

Open minds and all that!

 

I really don't feel I understand your stance at all. You seem to contradict yourself in a few of the points you make. Forgive me because it's 6AM and I've a fever I could cook eggs on, so I'm not going to defend the capability of my thinking parts.

 

However, I feel you have this huge chip on your shoulder about popularity and people who see a lot of RP. Are you not judging them based off of things like forum posts or have you spoken to every person who is 'popular' on some sort of personal level? Maybe you have specifics in mind, but the way I read your posts, it could apply to people you don't mean it to apply to. Frankly, I don't know if your words are taking a jab at me due to how vague this underlying problem you have is, but that's neither here nor there. I'd just be careful about the complaining about groups in such a vague manner cause people might not know who you are applying it to.

 

Okay, this is slightly unrelated to the topic at hand, but I feel like I need to get this down on the table and out in the open because I get the feeling it's a massive source of tension in conversations like these:

 

Graeham, I have to be honest in that every time a vague "popular group of people who are manipulative two-faced assholes" gets brought up, I pause and feel some level of anxiety over whether or not I or folks I know are getting lumped in there. I have to keep reminding myself that it's impossible (well, at least for me specifically) because you and I have never interacted outside of this website and I haven't really even been online enough for the past three months to really do much RP to begin with, but the anxiety is there nonetheless and I'm sure other people likely feel it too.

 

Logically, I know you probably just mean a couple of specific jerks you've encountered, but because everything is worded so vaguely, it just comes off as "Most of these established/'popular' RPers consist of heinous dickwads who are nice and sweet on the surface, but are complete assholes in game that mistreat new folks."

 

Toss in the fact that there is a reoccurring theme of "Popular/Veteran Members VS Newbie Members" (which I totally get because whenever you have a long established group and a new, shiny group, rifts sometimes do form that need to get bridged) and it just makes the entire conversation feel really tense and anxious.

 

I want to have an earnest dialogue with you and other new folks. I've agreed with things you've said on these forums before and because you ARE one of the 'new guys' and are in the ideal position to tell the community what things are like - I definitely want to keep discussing things with you to figure out how we can make things better.

 

BUT - I also have no idea if you're taking the time to make subtle, passive-aggressive jabs at various people in the thread or if you're literally just expressing frustration with how some folks outside of this conversation have acted because of how broad the paintstrokes are.

 

[Edit: Tweaked to make it clearer who I was referring to. :V]

 

[Edit 2: Just wanted to clarify one thing before it gets misunderstood: we ABSOLUTELY should talk about how established folks snubbing newbies is a problem. It's a negative thing that can really poison a community and if it's going on, it needs to stop.

 

However, if we do talk about that, we need to be wording it in a way that doesn't immediately make 80% of the established community members squint at their computers going "Wait. Who's he talking about? Did I accidentally piss someone off recently? Is he talking about me? Have I even MET this person in game?" I don't know if this will be seen as policing tone, but it makes it really stressful to have these conversations if you have no idea whether the other person actually genuinely holding out a hand and trying to have an earnest dialogue with you about how to improve things or if they're making thinly veiled jabs at you for reasons you don't really understand.]

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Once this thread has gotten quieter, if Ilwe'ran's points could be made to a separate thread that would be really neat, because they've provided some great tips for new roleplayers and ideas for roleplay starters. I know I've been taking notes. :) I'm sure there are some other posts as well, will find them in amongst all the discussion.

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After some time, we should do a sweep of the thread, pluck out all the advice given towards oldbies and newbies alike, organize it, and stick it up where it's easier to read.

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Once this thread has gotten quieter, if Ilwe'ran's points could be made to a separate thread that would be really neat, because they've provided some great tips for new roleplayers and ideas for roleplay starters. I know I've been taking notes. :) I'm sure there are some other posts as well, will find them in amongst all the discussion.

 

I'm humbled by your words :blush: . As I can find my messages easily here they are. Again I apologize for the confuse order and the fact I just.. Spread them along that topic as some ideas were coming.

 

- Bunch of advices to make connections

- How to create an occasion

- fishing for some RP

- How to get people knowing about you in a natural way

- How to do if you are shy or know some shy people

 

And Berrod made a post with all the messages with advices > here <, we could try to update it :)

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2. New RPer meeting New RPer

This can be like finding your own way, a FC or friends help.

 

 

I'm of a mind that this needs to happen more often. New Rpers connecting with new RPers more often would be a great

 

Okay, this is slightly unrelated to the topic at hand, but I feel like I need to get this down on the table and out in the open because I get the feeling it's a massive source of tension in conversations like these:

 

Graeham, I have to be honest in that every time a vague "popular group of people who are manipulative two-faced assholes" gets brought up, I pause and feel some level of anxiety over whether or not I or folks I know are getting lumped in there. I have to keep reminding myself that it's impossible (well, at least for me specifically) because you and I have never interacted outside of this website and I haven't really even been online enough for the past three months to really do much RP to begin with, but the anxiety is there nonetheless and I'm sure other people likely feel it too.

 

Thing is, he has to stay vague. It's against the rules to call people out directly. Not a bad rule, but explains why he's forced to be passive aggressive in this instance.

 

and I agree after the discussion is over (Discussion is good! Keep up discussion!) Throw the useful stuff into a resource thread.

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Okay, this is slightly unrelated to the topic at hand, but I feel like I need to get this down on the table and out in the open because I get the feeling it's a massive source of tension in conversations like these:

 

Graeham, I have to be honest in that every time a vague "popular group of people who are manipulative two-faced assholes" gets brought up, I pause and feel some level of anxiety over whether or not I or folks I know are getting lumped in there. I have to keep reminding myself that it's impossible (well, at least for me specifically) because you and I have never interacted outside of this website and I haven't really even been online enough for the past three months to really do much RP to begin with, but the anxiety is there nonetheless and I'm sure other people likely feel it too.

 

Thing is, he has to stay vague. It's against the rules to call people out directly. Not a bad rule, but explains why he's forced to be passive aggressive in this instance.

 

and I agree after the discussion is over (Discussion is good! Keep up discussion!) Throw the useful stuff into a resource thread.

 

I'm not advocating that he call people out. I understand why those rules are there and I definitely think they should be followed. I'm saying there is absolutely a way for him to say what he means without making a large cluster of people wonder if he's making passive-aggressive snipes at folks in the conversation itself.

 

Just saying something along the lines of "I've encountered some more established members of the community ignoring newer ones and it's extremely disheartening for those of us trying to break into RP for the first time." is enough to get across his meaning without coming off passive-aggressive.

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I don't know if there'd be any interest in this, but I wonder if some sort of project would help where more comfortable/experienced volunteer roleplayers are matched up with new, shy, or people finding it difficult to find roleplay. Just a one off time, not a regular thing unless it was a huge success. It isn't a mentoring scheme or anything like that, just a way to find a RP partner.

 

The people matched can then decide the details of their characters meeting. If they were to go to an event and introduce them to a bigger circle that would certainly be good but not neccessary.

 

If it's someone very new to roleplaying it would be insightful for them I'm sure, but I suppose we don't get many completely new people joining so.. perhaps not the best idea. I still consider myself new since I haven't properly got around to roleplaying with anyone yet and just talk about it lol.

 

Any thoughts, or probably a disaster?

 

Hey, for whatever reason, this thread has helped me come out of my lurker status a bit so that's nice, thanks guys. :)

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I don't know if there'd be any interest in this, but I wonder if some sort of project would help where more comfortable/experienced volunteer roleplayers are matched up with new, shy, or people finding it difficult to find roleplay. Just a one off time, not a regular thing unless it was a huge success. It isn't a mentoring scheme or anything like that, just a way to find a RP partner.

 

The people matched can then decide the details of their characters meeting. If they were to go to an event and introduce them to a bigger circle that would certainly be good but not neccessary.

 

If it's someone very new to roleplaying it would be insightful for them I'm sure, but I suppose we don't get many completely new people joining so.. perhaps not the best idea. I still consider myself new since I haven't properly got around to roleplaying with anyone yet and just talk about it lol.

 

Any thoughts, or probably a disaster?

 

Hey, for whatever reason, this thread has helped me come out of my lurker status a bit so that's nice, thanks guys. :)

 

...

 

::Bundles adorable popoto friend in a blanket to make a burrito and hugs:: You are so cute. ;A;

 

Also, I tried something like this before - if we do launch a initiative like that again, I strongly vote we organize folks by timezone/schedule. When I first tried it, I was dumb and sometimes unknowingly matched people with incompatible schedules together and had to do some reassigning.

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I'm not sure this is something that you can ever really fix because the cause isn't simple and so a solution would have to be just as complicated and multifaceted. LS die because they can't really enforce participation, and dedicated mentoring would end up becoming a job where you are essentially forcing RP connections (which will make one of the points I'm about to make that much harder to deal with).

 

If you're a not-so-well-known RPer here like myself want to become more popular within the community, it's one of those "be patient, it WILL take lots of time" situations, and the amount of time required grows the older that community is. Let me explain and talk as one of those people on the outside looking in:

 

Cliques happen and often times they are unintentional. Sure, some people are snobs, but for the most part - as it has been pointed out - some people simply don't have enough free time left over from real life and RP and so they can't commit to learning to RP with another character all over again (and each RP connection is, in fact, a learning experience). Plus RPing in an MMO is fully-engaging: it's not like forum or post RP where you can respond at your leisure and write as long as you have the right tool to do so. In an MMO you have to glue yourself to your computer. This limits free time even more.

 

Then consider what RP is like on an MMO. No game is EVER made for RPers or with RP at the forefront of its design goals, which means each one ends up turning into a conflicting, messy play pen with pot-holes in the lore, conflicts between game mechanics and immersion-breaking explanations for those mechanics, etc (there is no greater proof than all the lore discussions and arguments that happen here on RPC lol). Finding good RP, as a result, is simply hard. Also maintaining good RP is equally difficult if not more so because people will sometimes poof from the game (and many never return).

 

That last point I want to highlight further because FF14 has such a long and hard past, and as a result, so too will its RPers. Some of us started at 2.0 but there are others who have been around and RPing since 1.0; that's a lot to compete with. Think about all the connections and plots that people have worked on only to have them abandoned by the other people involved (either mid-plot, or afterwards). Heck I can go through the wiki and pick one  ACTIVE bio at random and see a list of connections and relationships which is likely over half full of characters who aren't even around anymore or are barely active, but based on the descriptions these were clearly involved relationships with stories behind each one. Also, think about all the plots that have going on for SO LONG and are simply too involved to bring in some random new face out of the blue. As a result, it's not hard to believe that good RPers tend to cling to those other good RPers who stick around for the long haul - they're like freakin' unicorns lol. And that, I've always felt, has the been the obstacle for the rest of us. VeteranA doesn't know Newbie, so Newbie could very well end up leaving FF14 after only a few months, so does veteranA really want to really dive into some serious RP with them especially when they have SuperPlot#1 with veterans B and C going on?

 

Frankly, I can't imagine trying to fit my character in with someone who has 4842735049 IC RP buddies, and have people here on the RPC hanging off their jock in every thread lol I mean, look at the fun games that we play here like "Characters mine have a crush on" or "Characters I want to RP with more" or "Let's draw pictures of each other" - it's the same popular characters featured over and over again. Who wants to be another face that someone else has to struggle to remember along with all of their FC buddies, RP linkshells, buddy lists, and the people here on RPC? The relationship, in the beginning, would likely become an obligation, and being a chore is not something any of us enjoy which is where the newbies contribute to the failing inclusivity of the community. In the dynamic of established-RP and unknown-RPer, it will likely be the "new guy" who is going to feel that way because he or she is pretty much a side project for the person who already has a bunch of storylines going on and is just. flatout. EXHAUSTED lol A person can sense when they are being a chore to RP with, and it robs of them of the inspiration to continue. So they leave, and they take personal offense and say that the veteran wasn't trying.

 

And that's what I mean by multifaceted cause: it's not just the popular kids' fault and it's not just the newbies' fault. It's just unfair circumstances because that's life sometimes. I know we live in an age now where every kid gets a trophy just for showing up, but the universe does not exist to please us. Remembering and being rationale about that is what helps keep me from being frustrated in my attempts to branch out more here on the RPC and in-game and it's something I encourage others to do as well: when you remind yourself that people aren't trying to form cliques, you don't get mad when you see it happen.

 

That's the only advice I can offer to my fellow "unknowns:" stiffen your upper lip, be level-headed, and be patient. Alternatively - and this isn't a jab at those of you who do have popular characters because obviously you've put the time and energy into your RP and should be proud of being in demand - don't try to get in with the veteran characters or RPers in the first place; don't make that a goal. Try to RP with other people who aren't so well-established in the community instead.

 

And always try to match up your time-zones.

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The main problem of that topic is it turned onto some "veteran" vs "newbie" thing and it makes me feel really uneasy.

- There are Veteran who don't find some RP (I know a bunch of those)

- There are Newbies who have no problem to find some RP.

- RP is possible between Veterans.

- RP is possible between Newbies & Veterans.

- RP is possible between Newbies.

 

And for some reasons, while the topic was going on, it turned onto so "Why do the Veteran (Aka the community) don't RP with the newbie". I don't like this and for several reasons.

 

Why can't the newbies RP with some other newbies ? I mean.. There is no law anywhere saying that for existing in the community you are forced to reach out to the Veteran and hope them to see you. You can RP with some other people who just joined the game too, create your own stories and have fun. It's a waste of time to focus on a goal such as "breaking into the community", focus on "making some nice connections" instead

It's not important if the one you RP with are considered as Veteran or Newbie, what is important is to have fun and the "Veteran" status doesn't imply that you will have more fun with them. Anyway you will see that the more you will progress in your story, the more you will meet people and the more you will meet some people who knows who are supposed to be some veterans and you will eventually be considered as a veteran yourself.

 

Focus on yourself. I mean, you created a character and his background, you probably have several loose ends you need to fix because, somehow, that's what makes a character interesting and fun, so.. Focus on your character, meet some people you like whether they are there since long or not and are well known or not.

 

- Use the LS / Making connection forum to find some specific people to help on specific point on your story.

- Meet some people on random place, dunno, the quicksand is an idea, but there are all sort of places where there are RPer : RP in open space, visits some bars / taverns / IC houses (Check Xen's list > HERE <).

- Post some advertisements in the Tonberry's Lantern section of the forum. If you have the time, try to make it looking like a real advertisement.

- Read the Making Connections part of the forum. It's not because you will post a message there that the people posting a message in this section will read it, just have a look there, see if someone could match with your type of RP and pm them if that's the case.

 

Never force yourself. Find and follow your own pace, don't stress yourself out, people will feel it as well. There are tons of way to meet people, as for IRL, sometimes it will be OOC first, sometimes you will just have someone running at you in Ul'dah's market and before you could know it, people will talk about you as being a Veteran and will consider you as a model ;) .

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