Random Confrontation and You

[Chris Ganale]

Also? Who 'warns' you about how tough his or her character is?

 

Somebody with way too much hubris for his own good. Admittedly, I take a perverse enjoyment in knocking those people down a couple rungs, but that has as much to do with coming up in the same lawless hellholes as Glio and Ark as it does anything.

 

Hell, if anything I try to undersell how competent my characters are, because the other guy underestimating me puts me at a hell of an advantage.

[Verad]

Exactly. They're not fair. That's why fighting smart doesn't fairly guarantee victory. To suggest it should consistently guarantee victory is to suggest a kind of fairness.

I think I might have misrepresented what I meant by 'clever'.  I'm referring specifically to the player willing to be inventive, creative, and willing to compromise and acknowledge when they might be outmatched.  

 

If someone's fighting dirty against someone who's trying to fight smart, the person fighting dirty will likely have better tricks and get an upper edge, obviously because they're pressing the advantage, but also because they're not following traditional convention.  That doesn't necessarily guarantee victory, but also doesn't guarantee a loss.

 

. . . 

 

If a bad roll of the dice meant more than just a 'quick loss', people would be less eager to rely solely on dice.

 

But how do you tell when you are outmatched? Because the character has been out-fought by another character, or because the player has been out-witted by another player? When does an emphasis on freeform suggest that character skill should be equivalent to player skill? It's an argument people make frequently for PvP-as-conflict-resolution; in freeform, I see it as well, but with a different type of skill in mind.

 

I am eager to rely on dice because, in general, I find dice to be more unpredictable than freeform roleplayers in combat. They provide more interesting situations and when the results turn out in an unexpected way, I do not get cross that they violated my vision of how combat should go. Instead, they make me think about how to frame the fight in such a way that the results of the dice are sensible plausible. The notion that dice make it easier to mitigate losses have nothing to do with it.

 

To be fair, I understand how simple /random high-roll-wins combats are unsatisfactory. It's why I have a roll-system linkshell with a more complicated set of rules and a sheet system. Even in /random, however, I would consider it the mark of a good player to acknowledge that the dice don't go the way they expected, and then craft the narrative around that unexpected result, than to try and deny the result entirely.

[Mercurias]

Also? Who 'warns' you about how tough his or her character is?

 

Somebody with way too much hubris for his own good. Admittedly, I take a perverse enjoyment in knocking those people down a couple rungs, but that has as much to do with coming up in the same lawless hellholes as Glio and Ark as it does anything.

 

Hell, if anything I try to undersell how competent my characters are, because the other guy underestimating me puts me at a hell of an advantage.

 

Personally, I think it's more fun that way. I see a lot of those sorts of fights turn into "Nobody wants to lose" slog-fests, though.

[Mercurias]

To be fair, I understand how simple /random high-roll-wins combats are unsatisfactory. It's why I have a roll-system linkshell with a more complicated set of rules and a sheet system. Even in /random, however, I would consider it the mark of a good player to acknowledge that the dice don't go the way they expected, and then craft the narrative around that unexpected result, than to try and deny the result entirely.

 

I've seen this done before to hilarious or impressive degrees. My own "Fighter" character regularly spars in the basement of the bar he runs (Rum 'n Rumble, Mist Ward 5 Plot 20- check out my fightin' pit!) with all comers, and he's both won and lost. Usually, I just leave it to /random.

 

The best was when I rolled a 999 and my friend Rinh rolled an ACTUAL 0. I did not know there was even a 0 you could roll. It was amazing.

 

Typically, I leave roll combat as a way to inject randomness into a roleplay. In actual combat, I like to go in knowing an outcome and working towards the end with the other player to tell the story.

[OttoVann]

I confront it by refusing to combat RP outside of extremely rare and highly niche situations. Spoil sport as fuck.

[ArmachiA]

^

^ On RnR fighting, the NB (Who owns the bar Mercurias runs ) is working on an entire system for that since dice rolls are extremely unsatisfying. We've already wrote the UNI system for roll20, which worked out well, now it's just adapting it to a pit-style Prize Fighter thing which takes into account character skill and strength as well. It's been tested a few times so far... Crits were pretty op though.

[Aife]

Personally I refuse to freeform fight with someone unless I've known them for a while and they don't seem like the type to godmode. 

I don't think I've ever actually done combat not using rollz/random outside of a personal plot I ran a few months ago with some close friends. 

Saying that I have a few friends who refuse to use the rollz/random system because it doesn't take into account their characters strengths/weaknesses which is a good point. Saying that, while I've be happy to do up some sort of character sheet to help make the combat system with another more fair I know most players don't feel the same way. It is a lot of effort.

[Aaron]

Can't we all like. . .be friends? 

 

Why y'all gotta beat each other up IC? D: 

 

YOU LURE PEOPLE OOC WITH YOUR NICENESS THEN IC PUNCH EM IN THE FACE.

 

I see your plans.

[Chris Ganale]

Hey, the only time I beat a guy up, he asked for it.

 

(Literally, I described Chao's fighting style to him and he was like "let's go test it! \o/" and she won when he suicide-bombed and she happened to stand up first)

[Mercurias]

^

^ On RnR fighting, the NB (Who owns the bar Mercurias runs ) is working on an entire system for that since dice rolls are extremely unsatisfying. We've already wrote the UNI system for roll20, which worked out well, now it's just adapting it to a pit-style Prize Fighter thing which takes into account character skill and strength as well. It's been tested a few times so far... Crits were pretty op though.

 

PRETTY OP?

 

Man, with the health regeneration, multiple crits were the only way to kill people in the tests for a while.

 

It's fun, easy to get to use once you've done it a few times, and getting more and more towards balanced. A good beta and a fun system.

 

And yes, NB owns the bar IC. OOC, NB owns me, basically. >.>

[Khadan]

Since we're just speaking of like personal opinion and such during these kind of situations I guess I'm one of those rare ones that lets the other person's writing dictate how I feel their character's 'power level' (for lack of a better term) is in relation to mine. My main a pretty competent fighter. He's no god of battle but then most people aren't. He just has training and experience which accounts for a lot compared to an un-trained and inexperienced individual. 

 

For example, if someone is 'starting shit' as you might say, it would depend on how their writing reflected that character. Do they seem nervous or confident? Are they being described as someone who is just trying to get attention and show off some swagger or are they a calm and collected killer with a singular focus? All these things and many more will eventually shape my responses and such to that person and, in a perfect world, who will prevail in said confrontation. 

 

I'd prefer to not use dice if at all possible since it is just kind of 'lazy' feeling to me. I mean I fully understand why people do it and I even agree, but if two people are good at the whole writing thing then just let it carry your narrative. I do like the idea of some OOC communication, though. It shouldn't HAVE to be necessary but again that's the whole 'perfect world' mentality. 

 

Ultimately I think a lot of people's trepidation with "RP Combat" or "Freeform" is the notion that "If I lose then my character dies or worse, is humiliated!" Priorities, right? That's not always true and most if not all people who hedge when it comes to the idea of IC conflict and combat will cite some anecdotal circumstance where they got burned by some person who was a huge jerk. Ultimately these are relevant to the person but not everyone is everyone else and to write something off completely because someone gave you a bad experience once is kind of limiting yourself. 

 

Take a chance, be open, be flexible, and as a general rule that I take to heart: Defeat doesn't = death; Defeat can actually mean MORE quality RP comes of the situation. How does your character handle the defeat? Do they escape? Are the saved by friends in the nick of time? Do the guards show up and break up the fight? Or was the confrontation just till someone yielded or first blood etc? Otherwise I guess it's safe to say just don't get into an RP combat situation where 'character death' is the inevitable result for either one of you until you've established how it is to go down beforehand. That kind of foreshadowing in plot is in fact essential to most writers. You lay down or have a rough outline of what is supposed to happen then build up all the good stuff until that conclusion.

 

We're all adults, here, right? Let's worry less about what happened that one time however long ago in that one game with that one person and just try to focus on having fun and telling a great story with some great characters. =)

[industrythirteen]

I talk to the other person OOC, opening a dialogue. I ask them what they want out of the encounter, and what kind of story they want to tell. This is how I met a good friend of mine in TOR. Luckily, he was more interested in telling a story, and entertaining everyone watching, more than either of us were showing off. 

 

Whenever there is going to be a confrontation, I'm aware of what other people are viewing, and I'm much more interested in whether they are going to be entertained or disinterested. I keep it short, sweet, and to the point. If the other person is uncommunicative, or uninterested in a cooperative effort that works for us both, then I just dismiss the whole thing and go about my business. 

 

Posturing, chest-beating or unnecessarily throwing ones weight around is my number one turnoff in roleplay. If that's all someone is interested in, then I'm just gonna leave them to do their thing.

[Caspar]

Poor Virara has lost every single /roll she has done. I'm not gonna lie, it's pretty disappointing considering how much not only my rp but that of others have played up her strength. But I've used it for good rp so it's worked out, more or less, and even their players were very reasonable about it. Given her skill and experience, I feel she should win eventually, but I can very easily use a loss to form interesting and fun scenes later. In fact, a lot of my most fun character development came as a result of that loss. I just want her to obtain a real, undeniable victory, or it'll make her character seem disgenuine, and lessen the dramatic impact of the more severe failures she will face later that I've planned. What matters to me most is establishing credibility before a fall and there's nothing surprising about a loser who continues to lose as expected, simply because I'm cursed with atrocious luck. I'm really thankful people have recognized this and played along with me patiently, rather than violating the core of my character concept. Once I've gotten her name in as someone strong, I'll worf with her as much as is necessary.

 

I think strength is relative and can be adjusted to force a win or loss, but a slugfest is always good to establish mutual power and is fun often. I would usually accept a loss if it seemed they had an edge on my character, but I think it's boring to lose easily unless it serves a narrative purpose, so I usually try to make them work for it.

[Paradox]

You know, this may make me sound weird, but having a character sheet showing your abilities and skills wouldn't bother me at all, I just hate the idea of a character's experiences and skills being summed up by a factor you have no genuine control over. Even losing is fine as long as I feel like it's my own damn fault. I have more problem accepting failure that I have no hand in than accepting failure I do have a hand in, if that makes sense. So if we had sheets detailing all potential abilities as long as nobody would metagame the info, I'd be totally fine with it. :3

[Kalooeh]

Depends on how it's handled icly. I usually roll with it but it the person starts god-modding I say to hell with it and start making it ridiculous and godmod myself and make it clear I'm not taking it serious because of what they're doing.

I'm fine with doing rolls too though if I have to do it for every action it gets tiring and can be less unbelievable.

And for other characters like Dheina, I don't really want to do rolls for most actions because if she had a lot of good rolls and beat someone who was really strong and skilled then that situation itself would be ridiculous because I rp her as being skittish and afraid of fighting. I've had her in situations that she has won for the most part, but it was because she happened to get the upper hand and/or managed not to get her ass kicked until someone else stepped in.

Like the situation a friend of hers was being threatened. Attention wasn't on her, so she jumped on the guy's back and started biting the shit out of the guy's neck and clawing them up as best she could. She did a lot of damage, but not enough that she could take the person out, but he freaked out over it and backed off. Another situation she got in a fight with a goblin (Warcraft) and only won because because she managed to hit him in the head with her staff and he was already drunk so he went down, and she dragged him out in to the street to get run over by something... and really only two times I can think of when she technically "won" a fight.

(Oh no wait there was the time fighting a wolf and she used nature magic to use tree roots to impale and pull apart a wolf that was attacking her and others, but she also got bitten up badly and needed help with healing, especially with her crying too much to do much herself)

With her and just about anything, it's like a cat verse a human. The cat has the potential to do A LOT of damage and cause a lot of pain, but in the end the cat isn't likely going to be able to kill the human and the human is still going to win if they're intent on hurting/killing the cat instead of freaking out about the pain caused and letting the cat go and giving it the chance to run away, or whatever kind of situation.

And with how I play her she's most likely to run away, cry, or panic, so if I'm in a fight with her and we're doing rolls, and the person continues to lose rolls and she ends up winning even with my rping as her mostly fighting in defense and trying to escape... well come on that's just ridiculous her kicking anyone's ass. I'd rather roll for dodging with her and running, unless she's in a position she can't really dodge or run away. I am planning on having her train for rogue/ninja stuff (though icly not though the guild, but a friend who wants to help her with defending herself better since she sucks at everything besides magic, and even then she's better with healing than offensive spells), eventually and then she'll be a bit better with fighting, but even then it'll mostly help with her avoiding fights.

 

Kal is either way and depends on who she's fighting. I have fun with Kal losing because she usually puts on this big front about how awesome she is and acts so over confidently about what she can do. She has a lot of power behind her and is a scrappy experienced street fighter that could do a lot of damage if that was the goal besides just fighting for the hell of it/for fun, but she doesn't have much professional training for anything and is often reckless with her fighting so people that have a better idea of what they're doing could kick her ass, and she tries to avoid serious fights that arn't more or less brawls that there's no real winner but more just beating on each other for the hell of it and they'll likely be fine afterwards.

Not saying she can't fight or can't hold her own well, and I do play her as being powerful, but I also tend not to rp fight with her with intentions of winning. If it happens, cool, but of not also cool and makes for an interesting situation to work off.

For winning though, if it's a serious fight there's also potential for a lot of damage to the person she's fighting. I always try to avoid killing stuff unless the person is oocly ok with it, but if Kal is mad and she gets in some good hits the person is likely going to end up with some broken bones, maybe a fractured skull, torn tendons, etc. All she really needs to do is get a hold of someone's arm or leg and it's a go to method to just snap something or twist it until it dislocates or tears. She's brutal with serious fights but I always try to oocly communicate if it gets close to that level and that's when I roll more for grappling or people escaping her hold or even just seeing how bad the damage is or if avoided from a counter.

If the person is godmodding or borderlining it, and/or oocly being a butthead along with their character, I'm less likely to be alright losing and I'll up Kal's fighting skill levels or just be ridiculous with it.

(Seriously I had a fight with [Warcraft] Kal and someone else standing in a tree (or on the trunk, and it was shaped weird). Kal has much more stable, flat footing, and in a position she could easily hit him or avoid him, and he was on a sharp incline and unstable footing and after picking a fight with her he not only dodged all of her attacks, but the ones from the people she was with, without falling, and rping as hitting them all and having no issues at all when logically he'd fall either from trying to avoid being hit, or he'd be hit and fall anyways. Even oocly when trying to talk to him about the fight and that wasn't being fair or realistic and him being a butthead about it. Eventually said screw it and rp'd "Kal turns in to a giant dragon with impenetrable scales and bites the guy in half because this rp is godmoddy as f- anyways" and ended it at that.)

 

There are times I'll do rolls for myself with certain actions so see if a character screws something up or not, or which kind of action to take if I can't really decide which way to go with it because both choices may end up interesting.

 

Some people I just try to avoid rp fighting with in general if I have an idea of how they are oocly and tend to be with their character and they seem like someone who'd rp as their character is unhittable no matter what. Even with a character like Dheina where I actively try to lose with her most the time, if any blows she may attempt all completely miss even without a roll and it's a situation they realistically wouldn't avoid, or it's even completely ignored (honestly I think I hate that part the most and the person acts like the thing never even happened, and then later on claim they wern't paying attention or didn't really care enough about what was going on to pay attention to it, especially when THEY were the one to start the shit with the character in the first place). It's obnoxious and makes me not want to rp with them at all, on any of their characters. Even if there's never a fight ever again with any of them.

[Dis]

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I tend to have a good gauge on when my characters are outmatched.  Sometimes, even a simple fighter can do something that surprises even my strongest character, and it gives her (and occasionally me) pause and makes me go 'Wha?'.  It's also dependent on how your character is.  Example: Glioca'd is well versed in both combat and anatomy, and in a fight, usually goes for the least defended but most vulnerable areas in order to try and end conflict quickly.  Liviana has almost no combat experience, and swings very wildly when in combat, with no real skill, grace, or finesse, and if she lands a blow, it's nigh on a miracle.

 

Again, with Freeform, you have to give someone the benefit of the doubt.  My characters can, have, and will continue to take blows even where they don't seem possible because sometimes that just happens, and someone gets one over on you.  I also like to take certain types of blows with my characters because it adds interest to a fight.  I don't like the unpredictability of dice however, because, and I've said this before, there are situations where certain things wouldn't make sense, and it feels ridiculous to have, for example, a very graceful character suddenly trip over their own two feet because that's the only way it makes sense that they missed the attack they were making.  

 

I think my problem with dice is that when characters do have a very discernible difference in strength (Liviana vs. someone else), I want to know that I can rely on my role-playing to get me through the conflict, and not a set of dice rolls.  My intention with Liviana is that if she gets into a fight early on, I want her to lose, and unfortunately, dice might make it so that doesn't happen, if I roll well.  That being the case, I'd have to ignore the dice rolls to mitigate and reflect her lack of skill regardless, so why even bother to roll them to begin with?  

 

I'd not be opposed to a system of stats and abilities, because I'm very familiar with that in a d20 setting, and it does more to take actual strengths into account with dice, rather than simply flat numbers that don't show differences in what a character might specialize with.  I understand that the narrative doesn't always go the way I want it to, in fact, I welcome it, but I don't want to rely on a random number generator in order to achieve that effect: it should be the ability to play the character, not the ability to play force the character to do something that doesn't make sense for them because an outside force dictates I have to take x action or I'm somehow 'cheating'. 

 

And for what it's worth, I've seen the same screaming matches that get started over Freeform, be started over dice rolls and how they 'should be handled', so I think I'll just have to say that dice, like freeform, isn't for everyone.

[Warren Castille]

Interesting topic, and one that I'm hesitant to address. Anyone who's seen me roll dice (Chachanji can vouch for this, we he and I half-joked about me rolling the worst awful combination of dice for repeated turns in Fortune Street) knows that dice and I do not get along. The more embarrassing the loss, the more single-digit my randoms become. I've rolled two digits against someone in a heated argument in front of dozens of people. I've lost Grindstone matches to someone who was playing a sickly seventeen year old boy. Just straight up got manhandled by him.

 

I try to take my lumps fairly, but I'm also a big fan of pro-wrestling, and believe that encounters should further a storyline or rivalry. I've actually dropped the ball on this and owe someone resolution to a storyline involving combat but haven't found the time to doing so, and feel guilty about that. I usually prefer to, if it isn't the Grindstone or something, come up with a workable solution and post to that effect until it plays itself out. I've got no problem getting my face punched in and "losing" as long as I'm allowed a couple of good shots at my opponent. Similarly, if I'm supposed to "win" I want my opponent to look strong in the encounter - It doesn't make anyone look tough if you beat someone that anyone could beat.

 

So, uh, to answer your question? Yes, all of the above.