How to properly react to RP you don't like (or 'Punting the Puppy')

[V'aleera]

In an attempt to move this discussion away from the off-topic WHM argument that's brewing up again (which I think should be had, but in it's own thread and not this one), I am going to make a statement directed to the original topic that people are free to agree or disagree with:

 

If there is a kind of RP you do not like, the onus is on you to avoid it. You are not entitled to having your beliefs regarding lore or roleplay catered to. No one is obligated to filter their ideas to suit your tastes. The only roleplay you have a right to restrict and limit is your own.

[Aduu Avagnar]

It's not meeting in the middle. It's refusing to even meet in the first place.

OK, what then, is the offering of meeting in the middle by the person who is wanting to play the concept that the person does not believe is supported by the lore?

 

as I do meet in the middle. If they can make it plausible to be, then sure go for it. but /they/ have to make it plausible.

 

and I agree with Intaki. And I will personally avoid people who I don't believe mesh with my ideal of the Lore. I think the issue is that people take the 'you can rp what you want' and believe it to mean 'people have to rp with you whilst you rp what you want' which is patently not true.

[Gone.]

A willingness to entertain questions as to 'why' while providing the necessary plausibility. At least that's what I'd try and do.

[ArmachiA]

Which is done 95% of the time, except in the case of White Mage specifically.

 

Because there are many many people who believe the lore does. not. budge on it and they are perfectly within their right to believe that. You're telling people who are open to a Miqote Dragoon or a Black Mage (Which is VERY difficult in lore to pull off) because of those grey areas, that they also have to be open to White Mage when they believe the lore very explicitly says that PC's cannot be one. There is no grey area.

 

White Mage lore is the EXCEPTION, it isn't the rule and White Mage players need to recognize it's a VERY polarizing issue (As we have seen).

[Verilys]

Which is done 95% of the time, except in the case of White Mage specifically.

 

Because there are many many people who believe the lore does. not. budge on it and they are perfectly within their right to believe that. You're telling people who are open to a Miqote Dragoon or a Black Mage (Which is VERY difficult in lore to pull off) because of those grey areas, that they also have to be open to White Mage when they believe the lore very explicitly says that PC's cannot be one. There is no grey area.

 

White Mage lore is the EXCEPTION, it isn't the rule and White Mage players need to recognize it's a VERY polarizing issue (As we have seen).

 

As a new player, I've found the discussion on the White Mage stuff very interesting, but I've been having difficulty finding explicit statements that'd conclude against players playing as one. I don't want to beat on the topic further either -- would someone be able to message me and point me towards the resources?

[ArmachiA]

Honestly? Just read this thread for both sides of the issue (It does get heated at the end but this is the rpc so ) http://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthread.php?tid=10545

[Blue]

Which is done 95% of the time, except in the case of White Mage specifically.

 

Because there are many many people who believe the lore does. not. budge on it and they are perfectly within their right to believe that. You're telling people who are open to a Miqote Dragoon or a Black Mage (Which is VERY difficult in lore to pull off) because of those grey areas, that they also have to be open to White Mage when they believe the lore very explicitly says that PC's cannot be one. There is no grey area.

 

White Mage lore is the EXCEPTION, it isn't the rule and White Mage players need to recognize it's a VERY polarizing issue (As we have seen).

 

As a new player, I've found the discussion on the White Mage stuff very interesting, but I've been having difficulty finding explicit statements that'd conclude against players playing as one. I don't want to beat on the topic further either -- would someone be able to message me and point me towards the resources?

 

The truth is the lore is not against the player playing as a white mage. There is a quest for it. Just as there are quests that say you are the WoL and other stuff. The majority of the RP community however decided to disregard that.

 

As a MSQ RPer I say that the community's decision is FINE and legit, but nobody should use "lore" as a shield, because the very first break in the lore is to decide to not acknowledge that you are from outside of Eorzea, one of the Warriors of Light, and a White Mage. The lore is what the game provides, not what the RP community decides. So please, let us stop using lore as a weapon for jobs, because it is utterly wrong. I am not breaking the lore by playing X job, I am breaking your personal approach at it, your own version of the lore, which is way different from the game's. I am doing something you, and perhaps the majority of the community, don't like, not something the game doesn't allow.

 

To give my final word in this thread, my RP group has three (or four? I forget) IC white mages as of now and several dragoons and other things (we just don't really make a big deal of it, as how someone fights in a group of fighters is not that much relevant). If you ever want to RP as a job and are looking for like-minded people, look us up. You don't have to RP the MSQ with us if you don't want to, we're very open to just do social RP as well (and we won't make mention of MSQ during it).

 

*Raises the shield of peace, forecasting flames and hellfire*

[ArmachiA]

We disregard it because we aren't playing the outside of Eorzea, Echo having, Blessing of Hydaelyn, Warrior of Light Chosen one. We're playing other people in the world. The side characters. Not every single Eorzean is from outside of Eorzea and THAT's who we're deciding to play - the rest of the population. That's completely lore appropriate, I have no idea what your getting at here?

[Aduu Avagnar]

The lore is what the game provides, not what the RP community decides.

Which Ferne has stated, categorically, is that only one person became a White Mage through the WHM job quest.

[KitKat]

And who's to say that there aren't more White Mages than the WoL? A little blurb in a job quest? How many of you actually Roleplay out your job quests? Did all of you Paladins get set up by Jenlyns and then redeem him when he learned the error of his ways? Did all our Alchemists try to resurrect that one woman? Did our Dragoons become the Azure Dragoon?

 

Why, then, is it okay to utterly disregard other job quests but not White Mage?

[ArmachiA]

The lore is what the game provides, not what the RP community decides.

Which Ferne has stated, categorically, is that only one person became a White Mage through the WHM job quest.

 

yup. Lore =! Game mechanics. Those are two very different things

[ArmachiA]

And who's to say that there aren't more White Mages than the WoL? A little blurb in a job quest? How many of you actually Roleplay out your job quests? Did all of you Paladins get set up by Jenlyns and then redeem him when he learned the error of his ways? Did all our Alchemists try to resurrect that one woman? Did our Dragoons become the Azure Dragoon?

 

Why, then, is it okay to utterly disregard other job quests but not White Mage?

 

The Devs. The Devs said it.

 

White Mage Lore is the only class that is barred by a separate race of demi-gods who can decide whether or not someone becomes one or not. And they've decided no one gets to be one except the protectors of the shroud, the Padjal. The ELEMENTALS have banned people from being White Mages, period. And the Devs have stated only the WoL ever becomes one.

[KitKat]

But you're disregarding the same thing from other quests, just like I pointed out. Things that the "devs said".

[Blue]

We disregard it because we aren't playing the outside of Eorzea, Echo having, Blessing of Hydaelyn, Warrior of Light Chosen one. We're playing other people in the world. The side characters. Not every single Eorzean is from outside of Eorzea and THAT's who we're deciding to play - the rest of the population. That's completely lore appropriate, I have no idea what your getting at here?

 

I don't argue why you disregard it. I argue that you shouldn't use "lore" as a shield against those who don't disregard it. They are not breaking the lore, they are doing what the GM (the videogame) is telling them they can do.

 

Use any other word, but not "lore" or "canon". That is unfair and makes people feel bad when they shouldn't. Common etiquette =/= What the game dictates/allows.

[ArmachiA]

We disregard it because we aren't playing the outside of Eorzea, Echo having, Blessing of Hydaelyn, Warrior of Light Chosen one. We're playing other people in the world. The side characters. Not every single Eorzean is from outside of Eorzea and THAT's who we're deciding to play - the rest of the population. That's completely lore appropriate, I have no idea what your getting at here?

 

I don't argue why you disregard it. I argue that you shouldn't use "lore" as a shield against those who don't disregard it. They are not breaking the lore, they are doing what the GM (the videogame) is telling them they can do.

 

Use any other word, but not "lore" or "canon". That is unfair and makes people feel bad when they shouldn't. Common etiquette =/= What the game dictates/allows.

 

Again, Lore =! Game mechanics.

 

They've came out and said the Lightening Event wasn't Canon. There's no such thing as the Echo bonus in lore, etc etc. The devs are the Word of God. They write the lore, they tell us what to follow. It's that simple.

[ArmachiA]

But you're disregarding the same thing from other quests, just like I pointed out. Things that the "devs said".

 

There are no other quests except the main quest that allows people to become White Mages and due to the nature of the class (where the Elementals have banned people from being WHMs) a lot of people believe you can't play one, and that quest is for the WoL only, which the devs have said. I don't understand what you mean.

[KitKat]

So, these paladins and dragoons and monks have all gotten their soul stones through other means?

[ArmachiA]

Yes. Paladins easily become paladins because of the lore by just... talking to the Sultansworn. They accept ANYONE who wants to be one, calling them "Free Paladins." Paladin is actually the EASIEST job lore-wise to say you are, hence why you see so many. Dragoons go through trials in Ishguard to become one and anyone can undertake the trials, however only ONE person can be the "Azure Dragoon" who holds the eye of Nidhogg (Which I don't believe any roleplayer has ever claimed to be honestly).

[Blue]

We disregard it because we aren't playing the outside of Eorzea, Echo having, Blessing of Hydaelyn, Warrior of Light Chosen one. We're playing other people in the world. The side characters. Not every single Eorzean is from outside of Eorzea and THAT's who we're deciding to play - the rest of the population. That's completely lore appropriate, I have no idea what your getting at here?

 

I don't argue why you disregard it. I argue that you shouldn't use "lore" as a shield against those who don't disregard it. They are not breaking the lore, they are doing what the GM (the videogame) is telling them they can do.

 

Use any other word, but not "lore" or "canon". That is unfair and makes people feel bad when they shouldn't. Common etiquette =/= What the game dictates/allows.

 

Again, Lore =! Game mechanics.

 

They've came out and said the Lightening Event wasn't Canon. There's no such thing as the Echo bonus in lore, etc etc. The devs are the Word of God. They write the lore, they tell us what to follow. It's that simple.

 

Exactly, and they tell us that you can be any job you can unlock. To disregard what the NPCs and quests give us is, as you said, a decision you (the community) made, and not something the Devs imposed. As I've said before, the game also says we are not from Eorzea and that we should be new to all its customs (that's why NPCs always explain everything and act like we don't know anything beforehand when talking of any aspect of Eorzea). The moment you decide to not respect even this one line, you are breaking the lore.

 

AND THAT'S FINE AND LEGIT. Because maybe you want to RP something else.

 

So can we please stop telling others they are breaking the lore and we aren't? Cause that is a lie. You can look at it from any direction you want, but it is how it is. We cannot dictate that someone cannot be X job, because the game allows that.

 

Simply walk away and move on if it bothers you that much, but don't go telling that person what they are doing is wrong. They are not. I'm probably breaking the lore more by RPing an icemancer (Jet'a is a black mage that only uses ice spells, though more elaborated, to compensate), than they are by RPing a White Mage.

 

Seriously, not to brag or promote, but our RP group has multiple people of certain jobs, and we have also RPd job quests, and all of the participants manage to be happy at each other and what each of us decided to do with our jobs. There is never arguments of this sort. I really wish this harmony could be expanded and reach out to the "open world", but it's sad how impossible this seems to be because IT'S SO IMPORTANT THAT PEOPLE DON'T DO WHAT I DON'T ALLOW MY OWN CHARACTER TO DO...

[Aduu Avagnar]

If we truly must have this again:

 

 

White Mages: Gifted the power of Succor by the elementals. Only Person to have currently gained said power by a non-elemental is the WoL. Word of God has stated as such. Although there are those /working/ to acomplish this end without said blessing. Keyword is /working/. As in not yet succeeded.

 

Dragoon: Any person who has killed a dragon and presented said head to the Holy See of Ishgard. Only exception is the Azure Dragoon. Only ever one at any one time apart from the WoL who is accepted at the same time as another. Is an anomoly.

 

Summoner: Learning ancient Allagan casting techniques, and must defeat a Primal to be able to call forth an aspect of it - an Egi.

 

Scholar:  Learning ancient Nymian casting techniques.

 

Paladin: Anyone taught by the Sultansworn in their arts. Can either be Sultansworn themselves or Free Paladin, sworn to follow the Paladin Code.

 

Warrior: taught the old ways of the Hellsguard Roegadyn tribes, current teacher is one Curious Gorge.

 

Black Mage: learning ancient, /forbidden/ casting techniques that drain the land around the caster of aether.

 

Bard: Taught the power of song by one of the old Bards that used to acompany armies.

 

Monk: Taught the old ways of the Fists of Rhalgr, typically members of the Ala Mhigan resistance.

 

Ninja: Taught the combat style of the Domans.

 

 

 

One of these is not like the others, one of these is not the same.

[ArmachiA]

We disregard it because we aren't playing the outside of Eorzea, Echo having, Blessing of Hydaelyn, Warrior of Light Chosen one. We're playing other people in the world. The side characters. Not every single Eorzean is from outside of Eorzea and THAT's who we're deciding to play - the rest of the population. That's completely lore appropriate, I have no idea what your getting at here?

 

I don't argue why you disregard it. I argue that you shouldn't use "lore" as a shield against those who don't disregard it. They are not breaking the lore, they are doing what the GM (the videogame) is telling them they can do.

 

Use any other word, but not "lore" or "canon". That is unfair and makes people feel bad when they shouldn't. Common etiquette =/= What the game dictates/allows.

 

Again, Lore =! Game mechanics.

 

They've came out and said the Lightening Event wasn't Canon. There's no such thing as the Echo bonus in lore, etc etc. The devs are the Word of God. They write the lore, they tell us what to follow. It's that simple.

 

Exactly, and they tell us that you can be any job you can unlock. To disregard what the NPCs and quests give us is, as you said, a decision you (the community) made, and not something the Devs imposed. As I've said before, the game also says we are not from Eorzea and that we should be new to all its customs (that's why NPCs always explain everything and act like we don't know anything beforehand when talking of any aspect of Eorzea). The moment you decide to not respect even this one line, you are breaking the lore.

 

AND THAT'S FINE AND LEGIT. Because maybe you want to RP something else.

 

So can we please stop telling others they are breaking the lore and we aren't? Cause that is a lie. You can look at it from any direction you want, but it is how it is. We cannot dictate that someone cannot be X job, because the game allows that.

 

Simply walk away and move on if it bothers you that much, but don't go telling that person what they are doing is wrong. They are not. I'm probably breaking the lore more by RPing an icemancer (Jet'a is a black mage that only uses ice spells, though more elaborated, to compensate), than they are by RPing a White Mage.

 

Seriously, not to brag or promote, but our RP group has multiple people of certain jobs, and we have also RPd job quests, and all of the participants manage to be happy at each other and what each of us decided to do with our jobs. There is never arguments of this sort. I really wish this harmony could be expanded and reach out to the "open world", but it's sad how impossible this seems to be because IT'S SO IMPORTANT THAT PEOPLE DON'T DO WHAT I DON'T ALLOW MY OWN CHARACTER TO DO...

 

We disregard it because those quest are only for the Warrior of Light, and we're not the Warrior of Light. And even if you were, the Devs outright stat that the job quest was done by ONE person. They said it at fanfest. So your WoL was a WHM, but in another universe someone elses was a DRG. They've SAID this.

 

You keep conflating Game mechanics with world lore. From the WoL POV we can do pretty much anything. But we're just ordinary people. We aren't PLAYING a WoL ( to which the devs also stated, there is only one of). We're actually playing it EXACTLY the way the devs want us too, that there's only one WoL somewhere out there. The devs said it was your character specifically or it was derplander if you choose to disregard it.

[Verilys]

Again, Lore =! Game mechanics.

 

They've came out and said the Lightening Event wasn't Canon. There's no such thing as the Echo bonus in lore, etc etc. The devs are the Word of God. They write the lore, they tell us what to follow. It's that simple.

 

I'm typically cautious of what devs say in off-the-cuff situations, such as panels. It depends on context. I'll need to check out the live recording of where that particular quote from White Mages comes from to say anything about that one in particular, so I won't reference that in particular!

 

However, devs (even lore devs) will often respond from a mechanical point of view and the gameplay's overall story narrative, rather than from the lens of lore as roleplayers tend to see it. So, I'm really, really wary of saying that they're the word of god with absolute certainty. They tend to think of the game AS that main story arc; not the rest of the world, not the side characters, the people who are making their quiet living in amongst all the other stuff going on.

 

But as I mentioned earlier, I'm also new. So, I don't know how reliable Fernehalwes is. Other people would have a better perspective there.

[KitKat]

Again, my point stands. Why is it all right for these people to get to have what they want by going about it differently than the quests but White Mages cannot? All you're trying to do here is police how this "community" plays.

 

By the way, these devs that you hold as the so-called "Word of God" have also explicitly stated that other groups do have access to White Magic. Are we disregarding that?

[Aduu Avagnar]

Exactly, and they tell us that you can be any job you can unlock. To disregard what the NPCs and quests give us is, as you said, a decision you (the community) made, and not something the Devs imposed. As I've said before, the game also says we are not from Eorzea and that we should be new to all its customs (that's why NPCs always explain everything and act like we don't know anything beforehand when talking of any aspect of Eorzea). The moment you decide to not respect even this one line, you are breaking the lore.

 

 

They state that you the character of the MSQ are an outsider. People can choose to RP as members of the general community and that is, surprise surprise not breaking lore.

 

 

AND THAT'S FINE AND LEGIT. Because maybe you want to RP something else.

 

So can we please stop telling others they are breaking the lore and we aren't? Cause that is a lie. You can look at it from any direction you want, but it is how it is. We cannot dictate that someone cannot be X job, because the game allows that.

 

Simply walk away and move on if it bothers you that much, but don't go telling that person what they are doing is wrong. They are not. I'm probably breaking the lore more by RPing an icemancer (Jet'a is a black mage that only uses ice spells, though more elaborated, to compensate), than they are by RPing a White Mage.

 

Seriously, not to brag or promote, but our RP group has multiple people of certain jobs, and we have also RPd job quests, and all of the participants manage to be happy at each other and what each of us decided to do with our jobs. There is never arguments of this sort. I really wish this harmony could be expanded and reach out to the "open world", but it's sad how impossible this seems to be because IT'S SO IMPORTANT THAT PEOPLE DON'T DO WHAT I DON'T ALLOW MY OWN CHARACTER TO DO...

The majority of people that follow a closer lore adherence do not take part in that. We try to simply walk away and move on. But then we get shouted at for not being inclusive enough.

[Aduu Avagnar]

Again, my point stands. Why is it all right for these people to get to have what they want by going about it differently than the quests but White Mages cannot? All you're trying to do here is police how this "community" plays.

 

By the way, these devs that you hold as the so-called "Word of God" have also explicitly stated that other groups do have access to White Magic. Are we disregarding that?

please see my above post.

 

they do not currently have acces to it, they are simply working to achieve said aims. Come heavensward that could all change and be the focus of the WHM quest line, but until now, only the Padjal and the MSQ WOL are the only people with it.