I have a crazy theory about primals. (Some general 3.0 spoilers)

[Hammersmith]

They might show up.

 

They might be -pissed-.

But that's the thing - it's not actually them.

 

Moggle Mog is the Moogles' idea of what their legendary king was like.

 

The Enkidu that Gilgamesh summoned is not his actual stalward companion.

 

Shiva is nothing more than what Iceheart thinks she is - and gets told off by Hraesvalgr and told that her Shiva is not his Shiva.

 

And, I may have misread it, but the Bahamut that was held in Dalamund - not actually the original Bahamut - he is a Primal based on the original Bahamut.

 

They are nothing more than ideas and concepts being given shape through belief and the power of crystallized aether. So Hammersmith making himself the physical vessel for the Primal of Mythril Heart of Iron Eater would only be him housing his idea of one of those two - not the actual person.

 

As such, there needs to be no original person. No death. Just a story or an idea and enough faith and power behind to make it manifest.

 

 

 

That's why I said -echo- of.  It's a recreation of the thing that hit the lifestream.  

 

It's a reflection, it's a story being held in curator-ship by the Lifestream.  The death and the aetheric return to the lifestream are a book in there waiting to be read (and as proven in the MSQ: Interpreted) again.  It was there, waiting to be heard, assuming anyone had the worship and crystals to pull it out.

 

This could be anything.  Anyone.   As long as they had enough of an Aetheric, or historical soul 'punch' to them when they hit the lifestream to leave that kind of vibrating record in that big infinite well of power.

 

Just have to find the right ripple and start -pulling- and you get a primal from that tale.

 

Won't work with anyone but, as we've seen through the MSQ, if it had power, it's there and waiting.

[Gegenji]

Right, but the question I'm wondering is if there has to be any basis to the tale at all. What if it was a simple fairy tale told to someone about some nonexistent hero - and he believed it true? Or, failing that, thought said hero could solve the problem he wanted dealt with? And so, with faith and crystals aplenty... could he summon this fictitious character as a Primal?

 

Basically, could someone summon the equivalent of Eorzean Batman or Superman - someone who is entirely not real - and make them into a Primal? Or does there need to be a physical basis, that "echo" in the lifestream you mentioned, for them to draw on? I'm currently of the mind that there doesn't.

[Hammersmith]

Right, but the question I'm wondering is if there has to be any basis to the tale at all. What if it was a simple fairy tale told to someone about some nonexistent hero - and he believed it true? Or, failing that, thought said hero could solve the problem he wanted dealt with? And so, with faith and crystals aplenty... could he summon this fictitious character as a Primal?

 

Basically, could someone summon the equivalent of Eorzean Batman or Superman - someone who is entirely not real - and make them into a Primal? Or does there need to be a physical basis, that "echo" in the lifestream you mentioned, for them to draw on? I'm currently of the mind that there doesn't.

 

I think it works for why dead heros and kings can show up.

 

It gets fuzzier when dealing with the Twelve and the Primals, depending on if they existed in say: The First Umbral when they 'left' the planet and told man it could go fuck itself.  IF that's true, they've got an echo or existed in/before the lifestream.  

 

If it's all religious dogma it means that a hard enough belief punch can make that kind of echo, if you have the crystals to shape it.

[Sounsyy]

Right, but the question I'm wondering is if there has to be any basis to the tale at all. What if it was a simple fairy tale told to someone about some nonexistent hero - and he believed it true? Or, failing that, thought said hero could solve the problem he wanted dealt with? And so, with faith and crystals aplenty... could he summon this fictitious character as a Primal?

 

 

Phoenix is a legend and, to quote Louisoix "ancient symbol of rebirth." So, whether or not the legendary birds do exist is up in the air, but Louisoix's idea of the bird was it was symbolic of rebirth and that it would restore Eorzea upon his death.

 

 

Phoenix Down

The billowy plumage of the fledgling Phoenix - a legendary bird that, upon each fiery death, is said to rise from its own ashes in a literal "blaze of glory." When placed upon the body of one who is incapacitated, it will instantly revive the person. While some cultures insist that the tail feather's restorative properties trump those of down, these claims have yet to be proven in any sort of scientific capacity.

 

[Gegenji]

The following is my person dissertation on how I believe Primals work, based on what has been presented thus far and my own understanding of it. It is quite possibly off-base or even outright wrong, but the degree of which is likely only to be known once we get more information on Primals. However, since it is still using information learned through the MSQ all the way up to near the end (as well as what little tidbits I know of Coil), I will contain the whole thing in spoiler tags.

 

A Primal, at its heart, is nothing more than belief and desire manifested. If you have enough aether, you can create a Primal of anything - from a dead hero to a mythological figure to a doll you found comfort in as a child. I specify aether because we have two requirements to summoning a Primal - crystals (solidified aether) and the belief of people. I posit that in applying belief, you are also giving up a bit of your aether to the Primal itself - just as one uses their own aether to affect the world around them in other aetheric ways (such as Thaumaturgy or Arcanima).

 

As such - and has been pretty clearly defined in the MSQ with regards to Shiva - even if someone summons a Primal of someone who once existed, it is not actually them. It is an aetheric simulacrum based on how the ones summoning it believe it should look and act, and the Primals in turn act based on these beliefs set at the point of summoning - a sort of "aetheric blueprint" set upon them wrought from the mind of the summoner. I would further suggest that Tempering is also an extension of that - wrought from the belief that the summoned Primal should not only be able to defeat one's enemies, but also to turn others to their cause. In this case, I would like to put forth the idea that Enkidu would actually not be able to Temper - because it's not a thing Gilgamesh would think his companion could do. Meanwhile, I believe Shiva most likely could - even if it was not utilized from what we saw - because she is seen as the champion of the Heretics and one to turn others to their cause.

 

This would mostly explain why the Primals we see summoned repeatedly have the same look and do the same things (beyond the obvious "it's a game mechanic" explanation, of course) - all that information is still fresh in the minds of those under thrall, and in the remnants left of them in Tempering. And so they they try again, using more crystals and more faith and more belief on what their Primal could or should be able to do to overcome their foes. I would figure, if a Primal fell out of "use" to the point that there was no visual representation to affix to it... its "resummoning" would look much different, to better fit the image in the mind of the new summoner. Thoradin and his Twelve looked that way when summoned because that is what the Pope and his men thought they should look, empowered with the faith of the Ishgardian people, just as Louisoix took on the form of a Phoenix for his Primal form - he saw it as a symbol of rebirth and appropriate to restore Eorzea, as Sounsyy has stated.

 

As such, I believe that there needs to be no physical basis for the summoned Primal. The hero being summoned does not ever have to have existed beyond in story or the mind of the summoner. If someone had an imaginary friend who only they could see, if they summoned it to prove it was there - it would work. It would take the appearance and mannerisms applied to it by the summoner.

 

Which is why constant aetheric power is needed to maintain a Primal - they are not native or natural to the world of Hydaelyn. They are like an extended spell, and require continual powering to avoid fizzling out and "ending." The bigger and more powerful the Primal, the more aether that is required - either through followers, crystals, or through directly drawing it from the planet in a manner not unlike Black Magic. Which is why Enkidu was hardly a blip on anyone's radar - likely able to be sustained through Gilgamesh's aether-fueled desire and the smallest amount of additional aether from land or crystal (or if at all) - and hulking Alexander threatened to drain the Hinterlands dry in a matter of weeks.

 

In the most general sense, if something is summoned in this manner - it is and always will be nothing more than a Primal. If someone summoned one of the Twelve - for example, Rhalgr as sought by the youths of Little Ala Mhigo - it would not be one of the gods at all but a physical aetheric manifestation of what the summoner thought they would be. One could also wonder if the Twelve actually exist at all to be called upon in any case, but that deviates from the topic and is worth its own discussion. However, it's still hard to say whether the Twelve that showed up to aid Louisoix were in fact the Twelve, or Primal manifestations that did what the wishers wanted them to do - empower Louisoix to stop Bahamut from laying waste to everything. The end result in either case was the Phoenix, a form wrought from aetheric power shaped by the wishes of Louisoix.

 

This is why, I believe, the Ascians haven't done the same to summon Zodiark despite having the knowledge to do so - they don't want a Primal of Zodiark. They want the ACTUAL Zodiark. And that requires much more than gathering up a bunch of crystals and really wishing their Dark God was here.

 

 

[Hammersmith]

There's a lot of large hints and evidence to suggest the Twelve ARE primals. (Just ones that take way more power than say: Ifrit, to summon even a shred of power out of the lifestream.  Just look at what Louie had to do with Prayer power and Staff-Aether channeling to get a failed moon seal attempt and a time jump from the 'gods')

 

Given that "lore" suggests that the gods walked around on earth during or before the first Umbral (Maybe a time when there was a lot more Aether saturation to boot), there's a good chance all these 'gods', that the primals claim to be, existed at the same time, and left for the same reasons.

 

At this point we don't have a 'unique' primal showing up (Outside of Hildebrant's quest, which is....questionable in it's place of how serious you take it)

 

Even the pheonix primal and Bahamut have a lot of lore/legend behind "Well it existed".

 

Given how summons work for things like...Carbuncles... there's a good chance pulling an existant Primal (Gods and monsters) out of the Lifestream gives you some control over how it's going to act.  A literal shackle of faith for the god. (Through your belief of what it should do: Ramuh and protecting the twelveswood, Ravanah and expanding territory after the Gnath got a taste for blood, Pheonix and 'fixing' things)

 

If hero primals (Moggle Mog, Shiva) follow the same "imprint waiting to be pulled" pattern then since they have an expected way to act, and an imprinted pattern of personality, it would explain why they act the same but somewhat according to how their follower/summoner thinks they should (Shiva being a good example of this in the MSQ). 

 

 

Tldr; For the Gods and Primals, there's a lot of evidence it's the 'real' god that gets pulled out for a primal summon.  For Heros the evidence points at it being an 'echo' of what the hero was.  Both are bound by the faith in what they are/were, and act accordingly.

 

It seems very likely the Primals and the Twelve, and future Primals, are just aetheric beings/manifestations of mortal echos in the aether stream (Mog, Shiva), that used to exist in an age where Aether was plentiful, and now need help getting back across.

 

Which bodes real ill for when you think about what the Ascians are doing with their old buddy Zodiarc.  Edit: Though there's also a lot of things indicating that they might be a special case compared to normal primals/gods.  A fourth/highest power tier, assuming they all work as 'aether beings/echos' maybe? Hero echos/primal/god/Giant fucking Crystal Elder Gods)

 

If we get a completely unique primal with no historical, mythical, or deific basing, that'll throw this entire thing out the window.  But right now the only counter to that is Enkidu with the Hildebrand quest and that's...well...a murder chicken.  Take that as you will Canonically.

 

 

[Gegenji]

Tldr; For the Gods and Primals, there's a lot of evidence it's the 'real' god that gets pulled out for a primal summon.  For Heros the evidence points at it being an 'echo' of what the hero was.

 

Where's the evidence of this, though? Beyond looking how people think they look and acting how people think they act? Unless there are no Gods and everything is a Primal.

[Hammersmith]

Tldr; For the Gods and Primals, there's a lot of evidence it's the 'real' god that gets pulled out for a primal summon.  For Heros the evidence points at it being an 'echo' of what the hero was.

 

 

Where's the evidence of this, though? Beyond looking how people think they look and acting how people think they act? Unless there are no Gods and everything is a Primal.

 

Highlighted for emphasis.

 

I think the distinction between the two (Primal/God) doesn't exist except for "How powerful is this motherfucker".  Hell the Primals are called gods/Demigods/Forces of nature, constantly.

 

Both seem to be Aetherial beings who can't exist outside of the lifestream without intervention these days.

[Gegenji]

That's a hard thing to say with any sort of certainty, though, isn't it?

 

I mean, after all, we haven't actually seen any concrete evidence of an actual God stepping in and throwing their weight around. Or even just hanging out to high-five the WoL. Every instance of a "God" showing up and doing stuff that the WoL has had to deal with has been, in fact, a Primal.

 

Does that mean that there really is no difference and all Gods are, in fact, Primals? Or does it mean that no one has been able to garner a God's attention so they can show the difference?

 

I mean, the only godlike type we've interacted with in any sort of constant frequency has been the Mother Crystal herself (and, I would assume, Zodiark might be her "dark counterpart"). And it doesn't look like she's doing any of the things a Primal is doing.

 

... Or is she?

[LiadansWhisper]

That's a hard thing to say with any sort of certainty, though, isn't it?

 

I mean, after all, we haven't actually seen any concrete evidence of an actual God stepping in and throwing their weight around. Or even just hanging out to high-five the WoL. Every instance of a "God" showing up and doing stuff that the WoL has had to deal with has been, in fact, a Primal.

 

Does that mean that there really is no difference and all Gods are, in fact, Primals? Or does it mean that no one has been able to garner a God's attention so they can show the difference?

 

I mean, the only godlike type we've interacted with in any sort of constant frequency has been the Mother Crystal herself (and, I would assume, Zodiark might be her "dark counterpart"). And it doesn't look like she's doing any of the things a Primal is doing.

 

... Or is she?

 

I could swear it was heavily implied that the 12 are a "sort" of Primal.  That "Primal" encompasses a rather large group of beings/entities.

[Kurt S.]

This is such a cool theory, even if it is a bit crazy. 

 

Granted, I'm not exactly thinking that our PC's could be the primal of light. Maybe we'd be something more than just a primal. We do kick their asses on a nearly regular basis regardless of whatever form or strength it possesses. That in itself may just prove us being higher than them....

 

... Ravana did wipe the floor with Shiva and also if our PC's were to become the primal of light what does that make the derplander? I mean Elidibus was talking to him post credits of Heavensward and naming him Warrior of Darkness. I mean Odin is the darkness primal right? I dunno I haven't done his trial yet. *ehem* haven't done any ex primal *ehem* Unless Odin could be the primal of something else? 

 

Again this is probably just me assuming stuff. I do believe that there would be an anti-WoL or anti-us that might just start kicking our asses and generally causing trouble for us. Maybe it might not even be the derplander.

 

Plot twist: Story branches out in 2 depending on legacy or non-legacy player, Legacy players turn WoD -ugh PTSD of Angra Mainyu/Cloud of Darkness everywhere- and non-legacy still retain WoL status. Farfetched I know. But what if it did give us the choice, Legacy/non-legacy alike and it's just pavement to open world pvping, WoDs v WoLs? Offtopic I know. Plus there'd be a dozen other better methods to introduce open world pvping

 

[Kellach Woods]

In so far as we know, the Twelve are mythical beings. They do not actually exist per se, and thus are ripe for Primal summoning.

 

However, consider the last fight of 3.0 :

 

 

To summon the Knights of the Round primal you needed :

- The faith of a thousand years of worship/awe

- A source of power that was powerful enough to even MAINTAIN the forms (the second eye of Nidhogg)

 

 

 

Notice how usually the primals we have currently seen are worshiped by a beast tribe that is relatively few in number and that can get the aether crystals necessary by just raiding shipments of them.

 

We're talking about beings who, in the lore, have shaped the very essence of the continent. You'd need a lot of juice to bring 'em on over with all their godly power.

 

Primals are essentially belief + source of power. Technically, even creatures from the void could return as primals if, say, someone found a source of power and decided to believe enough in them. Diabolos returning as a primal fight anyone?

 

Now, the real interesting part about primals is the distinction between a primal and what the Warring Triad are if you read up on the lead up to the Bismarck/Ravana EX fights.

[Hammersmith]

In so far as we know, the Twelve are mythical beings. They do not actually exist per se, and thus are ripe for Primal summoning.

 

However, consider the last fight of 3.0 :

 

 

To summon the Knights of the Round primal you needed :

- The faith of a thousand years of worship/awe

- A source of power that was powerful enough to even MAINTAIN the forms (the second eye of Nidhogg)

 

 

 

 

Notice how usually the primals we have currently seen are worshiped by a beast tribe that is relatively few in number and that can get the aether crystals necessary by just raiding shipments of them.

 

We're talking about beings who, in the lore, have shaped the very essence of the continent. You'd need a lot of juice to bring 'em on over with all their godly power.

 

Primals are essentially belief + source of power. Technically, even creatures from the void could return as primals if, say, someone found a source of power and decided to believe enough in them. Diabolos returning as a primal fight anyone?

 

Now, the real interesting part about primals is the distinction between a primal and what the Warring Triad are if you read up on the lead up to the Bismarck/Ravana EX fights.

 

 

Given what you see the Ascians talking about, there's a VERY GOOD chance they're looking for a way to bring Zodiark out from "between" and into Eorzea using this kind of method, or something similar.  They very much seem interested in causing as much strife as possible to cause the people to cry out for a 'savior'.

 

Which is what the beast tribes do when they go calling up Primals....

 

which the Ascians happened to show them how to do.

 

See where this is going?

 

 

[LiadansWhisper]

 

 

 

 

Given what you see the Ascians talking about, there's a VERY GOOD chance they're looking for a way to bring Zodiark out from "between" and into Eorzea using this kind of method, or something similar.  They very much seem interested in causing as much strife as possible to cause the people to cry out for a 'savior'.

 

Which is what the beast tribes do when they go calling up Primals....

 

which the Ascians happened to show them how to do.

 

See where this is going?

 

 

 

 

I see where this is going.

 

And it's scary.  D:

 

[Harmonixer]

 

 

 

 

Given what you see the Ascians talking about, there's a VERY GOOD chance they're looking for a way to bring Zodiark out from "between" and into Eorzea using this kind of method, or something similar.  They very much seem interested in causing as much strife as possible to cause the people to cry out for a 'savior'.

 

Which is what the beast tribes do when they go calling up Primals....

 

which the Ascians happened to show them how to do.

 

See where this is going?

 

 

 

 

I see where this is going.

 

And it's scary.  D:

 

 

BRING IT ON.

[Kellach Woods]

Given what you see the Ascians talking about, there's a VERY GOOD chance they're looking for a way to bring Zodiark out from "between" and into Eorzea using this kind of method, or something similar.  They very much seem interested in causing as much strife as possible to cause the people to cry out for a 'savior'.

 

Which is what the beast tribes do when they go calling up Primals....

 

which the Ascians happened to show them how to do.

 

See where this is going?

 

 

 

When they mention the Warrior of Darkness, I kinda went "hm, if Zodiark is the dark counterpart to Hydaelyn, then it can likely assign a Blessing of Darkness, the Echo, etc."

 

I think originally they wanted the strife to occur because reasons, but once they saw that the WoL can essentially stamp that shit down relatively effortlessly, they figured that they, too, could create a foe just as powerful.

 

Now as far as bringing over Zodiark as a primal, it would have a hard time doing so because other than the Ascians barely anyone cries out for them. Dalamud would have a better chance of coming back as a primal than Zodiark and it blew up 5 years ago.

 

Unless what they want is to summon all the Primals, have them make a beeline for Azys Lla, get them to Kefka the Warring Triad and then hijack THAT power to summon Zodiark as a primal and bring it from the barrier between Hydaelyn.

 

And shit, wouldn't even surprise me if it was a FFV deal and we're missing half the map, the other half being in the void for some weird ass reason.