Playing the badguy

[Askier]

To play the Devil's advocate..

 

GET IT? 

 

Moving on...

 

I know everyone has generally gone with the realistic, slowly developed character option. The slow burn if you will.  The human villain.

 

If you intend for your character to have lots of interactions with people, playing them in such a way is safer, certainly, and more realistic, since most people don't do evil for the sake of evil.

 

However, and all this is from personal experience.

 

As someone whose character roster is 100 percent villains (most of which are dead) there are benefits for playing the larger than life villains.

 

No one seems to talk about how amazingly dynamic a baddie can be for people's rp. A subtle villain can influence people and create rivalries but a full, bat shit crazy villain out to crush the world, or a city, gets people stirred up in a hurry because, in the end, we're all a bunch of drama dorks and the idea of saving the -something- from an evil villain is a TON of fun cause it creates an easy enemy for people to gather against.

 

I used to rp a certain evil villain miqo'te who was..well very direct with his goals of killing basically EVERYONE.  He would tell you, polity, he would kill you and was sadistic enough to mentally break people with mind games.

 

Sure, he had NO friends IC (okay he had ONE Garlean buddy).  But you will meet soooo many great people OOC that will tell you they enjoy meeting other people while trying to stop your villain that's it become worth your character having so few friends because you are playing a VITAL roll in rp.  The antagonist. 

 

No character can grow without conflict and by being openly evil, you make it easy for people to find that conflict which makes their characters really develop.

 

I consider playing a villain a pleasure, but also a much needed roll that not everyone will or, even can fill, based on their personalities or characters.  Cause, honestly, most people rp their character as the hero as their stories.  Its just how they roll.  But, some sadists like myself, get more pleasure out of making baddies for people to end up defeating because we enjoy having everyone chasing us like a bad game of tag and we enjoy giving. Because in the end, people who play villains are really stepping in to the shadows to help others people's characters shine brighter.

 

Just my two cents.

[Caspar]

To play the Devil's advocate..

 

GET IT? 

 

Moving on...

 

I know everyone has generally gone with the realistic, slowly developed character option. The slow burn if you will.  The human villain.

 

If you intend for your character to have lots of interactions with people, playing them in such a way is safer, certainly, and more realistic, since most people don't do evil for the sake of evil.

 

However, and all this is from personal experience.

 

As someone whose character roster is 100 percent villains (most of which are dead) there are benefits for playing the larger than life villains.

 

No one seems to talk about how amazingly dynamic a baddie can be for people's rp. A subtle villain can influence people and create rivalries but a full, bat shit crazy villain out to crush the world, or a city, gets people stirred up in a hurry because, in the end, we're all a bunch of drama dorks and the idea of saving the -something- from an evil villain is a TON of fun cause it creates an easy enemy for people to gather against.

 

I used to rp a certain evil villain miqo'te who was..well very direct with his goals of killing basically EVERYONE.  He would tell you, polity, he would kill you and was sadistic enough to mentally break people with mind games.

 

Sure, he had NO friends IC (okay he had ONE Garlean buddy).  But you will meet soooo many great people OOC that will tell you they enjoy meeting other people while trying to stop your villain that's it become worth your character having so few friends because you are playing a VITAL roll in rp.  The antagonist. 

 

No character can grow without conflict and by being openly evil, you make it easy for people to find that conflict which makes their characters really develop.

 

I consider playing a villain a pleasure, but also a much needed roll that not everyone will or, even can fill, based on their personalities or characters.  Cause, honestly, most people rp their character as the hero as their stories.  Its just how they roll.  But, some sadists like myself, get more pleasure out of making baddies for people to end up defeating because we enjoy having everyone chasing us like a bad game of tag and we enjoy giving. Because in the end, people who play villains are really stepping in to the shadows to help others people's characters shine brighter.

 

Just my two cents.

Yeah, I think there's a role for both kinds of villains, so long as the people playing the heroes are capable of recognizing how the villain accentuates their character's personality and development. A good foil is necessary for a protagonist to really grow to their fullest extent.

 

Personally, my villains are all NPCs. Most people do not seem to have a problem with losing to them as long as there is a sense of progress in the storyline. If they lost constantly, I understand how they'd become fatigued. While I try to have villains that are ultimately likable and have understandable motivations, I also want at least one completely monstrous character in every story, barring times when it'd be inappropriate or if people were getting tired of them.

 

And when I mean monstrous, I mean someone you'd really *love* to hate. Not just a character who annoys you and has hard to understand motivations, or constantly obstructs the heroes' goals for no real reason. It's best in my opinion when the monstrous character is villainous in a way that directly offends the belief system of the hero.

[That Guy]

Hmmmm....considering all this I might make an alt. One who is more the 'bad guy just doing his job' while the other is all about that mustache. Its something to consider. 

 

Honestly I'm just enjoying the conversation ^^. Its interesting to read the viewpoints.

[Ignacius]

I would advise against making a mustache-twirling villain for one very significant reason: you're playing the result.  I cannot stress how hard this is to overcome for RP purposes.  The problem here is that people are saying there's a difference between a "villain" and a "criminal" when those are exactly the same thing.  Criminals, even Robin Hood types doing their best, are still violent and taking wealth that technically belongs to someone else.  It's definitely wrong.

 

A criminal is just a better thought-out character, and it seems like there are a lot of people here saying that having a good self-respecting reason to commit crimes and do bad things somehow makes them different classes of character.  It doesn't, it just means you've provided the background.  You've gone beyond "I play a bad guy" into "I play a thief who didn't have any money, looked at all the people with money around, and simply rationalized that he was taking money from people who were taking money their own way."

 

It's the difference between playing a "beautiful" character and an "elegant, voluptuous character with a charming and polite manner".  The former tells you what you're aiming for, the latter is actually a character.  I believe we're having this conversation elsewhere.

 

If you're playing a villain specifically to play a villain, you're working backwards from a result, and your character is going to reflect that.  It's far better to build a human character; you'll have a lot more detail.  Other characters will have different ways to relate to that character.  Most importantly, that character is going to make a whole Hell of a lot more sense.

 

Even if your character is meant to be an evil-doing evil demon doing evil for evil's sake, he needs a reason.  If not, he's a cartoon villain, and you're skipping some 95% of the character work.

 

If you want to make someone morally ambiguous, you need to say why.  You need to say how.  You need to give him a personality.  You want to generate some conflict?  Your person doesn't need to be a "villain" he needs to be "confrontational", "bitter", "vindictive".  You can build a remarkably frightening, but remarkably understandable, villain that way.

 

Always make sure that, if you're going in blank trying to slide into a niche, and you're aiming to be a villain, don't make that part of your character concept.  A cardboard-cutout villain isn't really a character anymore, he's a prop.

[Caspar]

That's why they make good NPCs. Granted, a straight up evil villain with a background that explains why they are who they are is no worse than any "criminal" in terms of characterization; that's a matter of taste. If anything I think it makes the monstrous type more interesting. You can look at their backstory, see what happened to them, and realize you still cannot forgive their actions in the present.

 

Characters aren't people. They *resemble people* and the degree to which other players and readers of your rp sympathize with them can be increased by making them resemble people more. Likewise, the amount they hate them can be as well. Narrative focus may necessitate more or less background attention as their role in a planned plotline may require. If you've going to make your main rp character a villain, having that extra depth will probably reward you just due to diversity of play and the entertainment that comes from doing so. If it is an alt or NPC, you can somewhat get away with not explaining every element of their background, though of course, if you desire to do so go for it. In my case, I've got the background of my plotline NPCs determined from their youth to the present, and there are some who are still completely unsympathetic out and out villains. However, I think that's just me being obsessive, lol.

 

A lot of that background will only see the light of day in my supplementary fiction that I write occasionally alongside the rp. I figure it's not always the case that the heroes are privy to every detail of the enemy's life. They can find this information if they pry with certain NPCs, but obviously some things the characters will never know. This may enhance the enemy's tragic qualities on the players OOCly, which is something I'd like to test out.

[SaintEaon]

I would also make sure you know 100% who you're RPing with. Like someone else here mentioned no one wants to lose to a villain 100% of the time, but changing their character's personality OOCly so they don't get affected by manipulations or machinations isn't fair to you, and if for some reason people start making it out that your RP choices as the villain are insignificant or not worth RPing they'll undo all your hard work. 

 

I've been the bad guy in several RPs on several different games. In one of them its been enjoyable the entire way through. In most you just have someone strong enough to stop you just happen to start meditating outside your house and then when you're leaving get the feeling you're up to something. Or they'll call for help OOCly in their LS or FC and not make mention of it to you OOCly or ICly so suddenly you're surrounded by 15 people for no reason. Or they'll refuse to RP, or tell you by slandering their character's name and coming after them you're griefing their plot and they'll stop RPing with you if you don't fall into lockstep with them. 

 

Finding the right people is the most important thing.

[Ignacius]

That's why they make good NPCs. Granted, a straight up evil villain with a background that explains why they are who they are is no worse than any "criminal" in terms of characterization; that's a matter of taste. If anything I think it makes the monstrous type more interesting. You can look at their backstory, see what happened to them, and realize you still cannot forgive their actions in the present.

 

Characters aren't people. They *resemble people* and the degree to which other players and readers of your rp sympathize with them can be increased by making them resemble people more. Likewise, the amount they hate them can be as well. Narrative focus may necessitate more or less background attention as their role in a planned plotline may require. If you've going to make your main rp character a villain, having that extra depth will probably reward you just due to diversity of play and the entertainment that comes from doing so. If it is an alt or NPC, you can somewhat get away with not explaining every element of their background, though of course, if you desire to do so go for it. In my case, I've got the background of my plotline NPCs determined from their youth to the present, and there are some who are still completely unsympathetic out and out villains. However, I think that's just me being obsessive, lol.

 

A lot of that background will only see the light of day in my supplementary fiction that I write occasionally alongside the rp. I figure it's not always the case that the heroes are privy to every detail of the enemy's life. They can find this information if they pry with certain NPCs, but obviously some things the characters will never know. This may enhance the enemy's tragic qualities on the players OOCly, which is something I'd like to test out.

 

That's why, when anyone ever says that they want to play a villain, my first advice is to watch the entirety of The Wire, if they haven't already.  David Simon created a show almost completely filled with moral ambiguity done right, and created villains that people relate to so well that they often don't realize they're talking about a villainous character.

 

Now that's how it's done right.  So much more mileage out of that than your common everyday Skeletor.

[Warren Castille]

stuff

 

The challenge you're being seated with is that there are definitive win/lose conditions for that sort of RP. If your character succeeds, then someone's PC has to die. If you don't succeed, though, you look like a loser (as you mentioned).

 

There's not a lot of wiggle room for RP to happen, at least not as far as definite progression goes. Your character won't suddenly feel pity due to his beliefs and your quarry won't suddenly find a way to ignore their backstory if they get caught. Those sorts of situations tend to favor the status quo: i.e., no one dies and we can all keep RPing. As a result, you're kind of hosed.

 

Rock and a hard place, man. Especially when you're trying to hunt down someone who hypothetically has an entire household of swords to watch out for them, who hypothetically are somewhat established as Tough Guys in the general RP space.

 

Playing any anti-character role relies on your opposition giving you allowances, and be-all-end-all conditions are the harshest methods of it. It can only end one way or the other, and one of those means someone's character, time and effort all go to waste.

[That Guy]

*points above* that about sums it up. Though I haven't run into the issue of someone having too many powerful friends (though that is something to consider) I have been told upfront that no, my character can't really do anything. Which is fine, really. My character might be an ass but I'm not. It's kind of rude to kill off someone's character but again, as said, rock and hard place. 

 

How do bounty hunters get around this? I see a lot of people rping that.

[SaintEaon]

*points above* that about sums it up. Though I haven't run into the issue of someone having too many powerful friends (though that is something to consider) I have been told upfront that no, my character can't really do anything. Which is fine, really. My character might be an ass but I'm not. It's kind of rude to kill off someone's character but again, as said, rock and hard place. 

 

How do bounty hunters get around this? I see a lot of people rping that.

 

I'm kind of a dick when it comes to hunting people down. I don't necessarily kill leads, but my character isn't above pain and intimidation to get what he wants. If I catch the person I can only do what I've been told to do ICly. Its nothing personal, they can take it up with the bounty dude OOCly and he can get back to me. 

 

I assume its the same for others, if not I'll find out soon. I hired like 6 assassins to kill someone in the roses FC this weekend. Dude's a whore, not sure how he's going to handle someone actively trying to ruin his life and slander his reputation. (Forgot to note I also hired people to lie about his character and make him look awful ICly.)

 

 

[Verad]

 

I'm kind of a dick when it comes to hunting people down. I don't necessarily kill leads, but my character isn't above pain and intimidation to get what he wants. If I catch the person I can only do what I've been told to do ICly. Its nothing personal, they can take it up with the bounty dude OOCly and he can get back to me. 

 

I assume its the same for others, if not I'll find out soon. I hired like 6 assassins to kill someone in the roses FC this weekend. Dude's a whore, not sure how he's going to handle someone actively trying to ruin his life and slander his reputation. (Forgot to note I also hired people to lie about his character and make him look awful ICly.)

 

 

 

I realize you're pointing this out as a matter of pride, and that's why you don't sound like a fun person to play with.

[Caspar]

That's why they make good NPCs. Granted, a straight up evil villain with a background that explains why they are who they are is no worse than any "criminal" in terms of characterization; that's a matter of taste. If anything I think it makes the monstrous type more interesting. You can look at their backstory, see what happened to them, and realize you still cannot forgive their actions in the present.

 

Characters aren't people. They *resemble people* and the degree to which other players and readers of your rp sympathize with them can be increased by making them resemble people more. Likewise, the amount they hate them can be as well. Narrative focus may necessitate more or less background attention as their role in a planned plotline may require. If you've going to make your main rp character a villain, having that extra depth will probably reward you just due to diversity of play and the entertainment that comes from doing so. If it is an alt or NPC, you can somewhat get away with not explaining every element of their background, though of course, if you desire to do so go for it. In my case, I've got the background of my plotline NPCs determined from their youth to the present, and there are some who are still completely unsympathetic out and out villains. However, I think that's just me being obsessive, lol.

 

A lot of that background will only see the light of day in my supplementary fiction that I write occasionally alongside the rp. I figure it's not always the case that the heroes are privy to every detail of the enemy's life. They can find this information if they pry with certain NPCs, but obviously some things the characters will never know. This may enhance the enemy's tragic qualities on the players OOCly, which is something I'd like to test out.

 

That's why, when anyone ever says that they want to play a villain, my first advice is to watch the entirety of The Wire, if they haven't already.  David Simon created a show almost completely filled with moral ambiguity done right, and created villains that people relate to so well that they often don't realize they're talking about a villainous character.

 

Now that's how it's done right.  So much more mileage out of that than your common everyday Skeletor.

Execution definitely matters a lot. It would make me very happy, for instance, if I can make RPers both revile and pity villain A, debate on the morality of Villain B, hate Villain C, and sympathize with Villain D. I hope they are undecided or conflicted regarding the intentions and morality of Villain E. Making any of these things happen will make up for, to me at least, all the old Rp I never got to finish. I want to believe I have the skill to do all that, but I won't know until I try it.

[Ignacius]

That's why they make good NPCs. Granted, a straight up evil villain with a background that explains why they are who they are is no worse than any "criminal" in terms of characterization; that's a matter of taste. If anything I think it makes the monstrous type more interesting. You can look at their backstory, see what happened to them, and realize you still cannot forgive their actions in the present.

 

Characters aren't people. They *resemble people* and the degree to which other players and readers of your rp sympathize with them can be increased by making them resemble people more. Likewise, the amount they hate them can be as well. Narrative focus may necessitate more or less background attention as their role in a planned plotline may require. If you've going to make your main rp character a villain, having that extra depth will probably reward you just due to diversity of play and the entertainment that comes from doing so. If it is an alt or NPC, you can somewhat get away with not explaining every element of their background, though of course, if you desire to do so go for it. In my case, I've got the background of my plotline NPCs determined from their youth to the present, and there are some who are still completely unsympathetic out and out villains. However, I think that's just me being obsessive, lol.

 

A lot of that background will only see the light of day in my supplementary fiction that I write occasionally alongside the rp. I figure it's not always the case that the heroes are privy to every detail of the enemy's life. They can find this information if they pry with certain NPCs, but obviously some things the characters will never know. This may enhance the enemy's tragic qualities on the players OOCly, which is something I'd like to test out.

 

That's why, when anyone ever says that they want to play a villain, my first advice is to watch the entirety of The Wire, if they haven't already.  David Simon created a show almost completely filled with moral ambiguity done right, and created villains that people relate to so well that they often don't realize they're talking about a villainous character.

 

Now that's how it's done right.  So much more mileage out of that than your common everyday Skeletor.

Execution definitely matters a lot. It would make me very happy, for instance, if I can make RPers both revile and pity villain A, debate on the morality of Villain B, hate Villain C, and sympathize with Villain D. I hope they are undecided or conflicted regarding the intentions and morality of Villain E. Making any of these things happen will make up for, to me at least, all the old Rp I never got to finish. I want to believe I have the skill to do all that, but I won't know until I try it.

 

My personal favorite is when the paragon and the heroic figure has to come to you for help, and soil their dainty hands by being part of your dark, dangerous, disgusting world.

 

Some of my favorite RPs of all time!

[SaintEaon]

 

I'm kind of a dick when it comes to hunting people down. I don't necessarily kill leads, but my character isn't above pain and intimidation to get what he wants. If I catch the person I can only do what I've been told to do ICly. Its nothing personal, they can take it up with the bounty dude OOCly and he can get back to me. 

 

I assume its the same for others, if not I'll find out soon. I hired like 6 assassins to kill someone in the roses FC this weekend. Dude's a whore, not sure how he's going to handle someone actively trying to ruin his life and slander his reputation. (Forgot to note I also hired people to lie about his character and make him look awful ICly.)

 

 

 

I realize you're pointing this out as a matter of pride, and that's why you don't sound like a fun person to play with.

 

You realize you pointing that out makes it very easy to say what you read here has nothing to do with IC right? Doesn't matter what I sound like here, I've got plenty of RP partners in game who disagree and RP with me every night. Not gonna lose sleep over the occassional person who has an issue with things I do because someone always will.

[Askier]

 

I'm kind of a dick when it comes to hunting people down. I don't necessarily kill leads, but my character isn't above pain and intimidation to get what he wants. If I catch the person I can only do what I've been told to do ICly. Its nothing personal, they can take it up with the bounty dude OOCly and he can get back to me. 

 

I assume its the same for others, if not I'll find out soon. I hired like 6 assassins to kill someone in the roses FC this weekend. Dude's a whore, not sure how he's going to handle someone actively trying to ruin his life and slander his reputation. (Forgot to note I also hired people to lie about his character and make him look awful ICly.)

 

 

 

I realize you're pointing this out as a matter of pride, and that's why you don't sound like a fun person to play with.

Ummm...

 

I can understand going after someone IC'ly.  I Did it to several people's characters. But never did I do it without their OOC permission and...I never sounded to...well Verad's right, your tone sounds a bit overly-aggressive, what with calling him a whore and all, and your post is, indeed somewhat off putting.

 

The purpose of a villain character is to make a dynamic story for others...not ruin their character utterly unless you got permission.

 

As someone whose main character WAS, basically, destroyed mentally by someone IC'ly and had to be rebuilt over a looong period of time...please make sure you have their permission.

[Warren Castille]

You realize you pointing that out makes it very easy to say what you read here has nothing to do with IC right? Doesn't matter what I sound like here, I've got plenty of RP partners in game who disagree and RP with me every night. Not gonna lose sleep over the occassional person who has an issue with things I do because someone always will.

 

Perhaps, but this isn't the first time you've casually dropped what a callous no-fucks-given persona you claim to be on this website. It's not going to 1) impress anybody or 2) make anyone want to approach you. It becomes very difficult to integrate into a community if you're bandying about how you don't give a shit about anyone else's roleplay ("They can take it up OOCly with the guy who hired me, I don't care it's not personal").

[That Guy]

Alright, back on topic people! I'm really enjoying the discussion but lets keep it that way okay? Just a discussion on rping a 'villain' character. That's it. No more no less.

 

Here's something to get folks back on tract: NPC's. I notice a lot of people who play criminal characters have a LOT of NPC's. On one had it makes sense, can't run a criminal empire without minions. On the other hand though when is it /too/ much? I knew one person who had a whole criminal enterprise that theyloved to lord around. However not one member of this group was an actual PC. So where do you draw the line?

[Warren Castille]

I don't think you should, in that case. It's always useful to have a guy for the job, and if they're an NPC it's not even an issue of them being disposable. NPCs are excellent for niche roles like the surveillance guy or the contact with the fences or whatever thing you need that doesn't actually offer a terrible lot of room to do other stuff with.

 

It's great to know well-connected PCs, but it can be difficult to shop for someone who doesn't mind being a rarely-used-sometimes-summoned guy who lasts a scene and then returns to other stuff.

[Askier]

Alright, back on topic people! I'm really enjoying the discussion but lets keep it that way okay? Just a discussion on rping a 'villain' character. That's it. No more no less.

 

Here's something to get folks back on tract: NPC's. I notice a lot of people who play criminal characters have a LOT of NPC's. On one had it makes sense, can't run a criminal empire without minions. On the other hand though when is it /too/ much? I knew one person who had a whole criminal enterprise that theyloved to lord around. However not one member of this group was an actual PC. So where do you draw the line?

When it stops being fun!

 

Trying to define how to rp an organization of villains is kinda like trying to organize a race of blind horses.  Won't work, so let 'em run free!

 

For villains its often necessary to make -henchmen- who are killable at a moments notice for the sake of rp for the heroes to make progress. Often in my FC's plot, and even back when I ran massive, server wide events, I often used npc's to help move the story along and give the heroes a sense of victory.

 

I mean, once I had over fifteen people show up just to rp NPC zombies to get hacked apart by the "heroes" and it worked out great.

 

Honestly, its what the story needs that determines the need for npcs in my mind.

[Katzenjammer]

Good posts, and I agree with most of what I've read.  As with any other kind of conflict RP, the primary thing that players of villains and heros alike need to remember is that no other player or PC is there for your convenience.  That is what single player games are for.  All is a trade off, provided the rule of 'don't be a dick' is followed by both sides.  Sometimes the villain should win.  Sometimes the hero should win.  And sometimes the not so heroic types should go through the pockets of both while they lie there mutually beaten and bloodied to rid them of their loose change.  And maybe kick a little dirt over them before they leave, just in case they happen to die.

 

If you treat your fellow players with some common decency and regard their fun as important as your own, you'll have repeat RP as a villain, or a hero.  If you don't, you have one encounter that leaves both sides annoyed.  Depending on the story and RP, make sure that neither good nor evil wins every time.

 

I say this having volunteered, in my first RP on Balmung, to be a victim of bandits.  All of us had great fun, and Kharijin is still on the look out for those two, with poisoned arrows.

[Chompie]

---

I consider playing a villain a pleasure, but also a much needed roll that not everyone will or, even can fill, based on their personalities or characters.  Cause, honestly, most people rp their character as the hero as their stories.  Its just how they roll.  But, some sadists like myself, get more pleasure out of making baddies for people to end up defeating because we enjoy having everyone chasing us like a bad game of tag and we enjoy giving. Because in the end, people who play villains are really stepping in to the shadows to help others people's characters shine brighter.

---

This paragraph right here is what fuels me when I play villains. Knowing that people aren't quite as ALIVE as when they have a villain to chase after is just... huge. Hell, I've used it as a character motivation- not to do evil for evil's sake, but to do mischief because my character isn't great with words or inspiration, and it's the only way they know to help others grow as people. A twisted kind of friendship for someone with a little masochistic streak in them.

 

It helps, of course, that I tend to play "Team Rocket" kinda bad guys much better than I play "World Destroyer" or "Controlling Mastermind" types. I can't give much in the way of advice for playing the latter two in a satisfying way.

 

Man, I do really want to try playing a villain here in FFXIV though. I doubt my current could have the kind of developments necessary to become one though, and as for making new characters? Well, maybe if I get *real* lucky.