Art Discussion

[Eva]

I'm not denying that this particular piece is a copy. The folds of the clothing and the shadowing is too similar for that to be coincidental. But it's also not a finished piece. If you find one that's finished where this has taken place, than I'd say you have much more right to be upset.

 

What concerns me more than anything is that you have come here and attacked the work immediately without offering any constructive insights until much later, then ignored the couple of times it was said to be an incomplete work, and went on to denounce the entire RPC in your signature block because the argument got split from that thread so as not to pollute the gallery.

 

From where I stand, that makes you look a bit like a troll.

[Folken]

Gonna pick up a metric and make sure it is all 44% different? Have fun with that. Way farther than I'd go to win/not back down from and argument. Perhaps the energy you are putting into the process of argument could be more productively channeled.

 

There's nothing to win. I've already provided the proof. There is no argument to be won or lost here. But go ahead, please. The more people who make me the bad guy, the more my signature becomes an accurate portrayal of this community.

 

 

 

Really Shawnzy' date=' I think the reason everyone's all siding with Mtoto on this is how you brought this up and how you attacked the community over the actions of one person. It could have been handled better, is all. It doesn't mean anyone here supports what Mtoto did.[/quote']

 

Look at the posts I made above. And tell me when I started attacking the community? I posted a picture, and a face, Mtoto took that as me attacking them, when merely I was simply pointing out plagiarism, I didn't even say a word, the picture spoke for itself. Then mtoto tried to justify themselves, to which I formed a rebuttal.

 

Then it was the community defense force that came in, so any further rebuttal from me towards the community is entirely in self defense. I was reasonable, I did not insult anyone directly, only tried to point out the plagiarism that was taking place. So now, since a vocal brunt of the community has apparently taken up arms against me, so be it. They have displayed a side of this community which I do not agree with.

[Aysun]

No no, when it became you attacking the community is when you grouped us all into a lump of plagiarism-supporters with your signature. Like I originally posted, I don't support what Mtoto did at all, yet I'm included in your signature and you're reading my posts like I'm being hostile with you as well when I'm trying to explain why they're upset with you.

[Folken]

I'm not denying that this particular piece is a copy. The folds of the clothing and the shadowing is too similar for that to be coincidental. But it's also not a finished piece. If you find one that's finished where this has taken place, than I'd say you have much more right to be upset.

 

What concerns me more than anything is that you have come here and attacked the work immediately without offering any constructive insights until much later, then ignored the couple of times it was said to be an incomplete work, and went on to denounce the entire RPC in your signature block because the argument got split from that thread so as not to pollute the gallery.

 

 

It's quite a convenient excuse "It's not finished yet." But let's take a look at other work in progresses the party has posted. How many of those have changed substantially from their WiP post, to their finished piece. The answer: not much at all. So it stands to reason that even though the piece in question was still "in progress" there is little to support the claim that it would change entirely from the whole character wardrobe or completely re-working the pose.

 

I'm not a corrections officer, it isn't my job to provide "constructive insights". How many times do you see something wrong and simply don't just blow the whistle, but instead teach the person doing the wrong what they could do better in the future. Me doing so later was a generous extra on my part to try and provide a better understanding of what I was talking about.

 

 

From where I stand, that makes you look a bit like a troll.

You're welcome to think that. The insulting assumption is duly noted.

[Folken]

Well, this should be the coup de grâce.

 

First finished piece!

 

http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2013/004/8/5/athumani_ashur_by_aristotleami-d5q1ah0.png[/img]

 

I'm done here. Here's your proof.

[Mtoto Wamoto]

I wasn't going to comment earlier due to the fact that I had already said my piece. However, because I stated several times that the things I had posted were works in progress (translate to subject to change if that better suits your tastes) I find it insulting that you go on to call what I'm doing plagiarism. YES, I did use another artists work as influence and inspiration(Akihiko Yoshida's, the artist of FFXIV, to be exact). YES I did use the poses in the respected art works as a base because I wanted to do FANART for my friends. I'm drawing from the pieces I'm looking at, I'm not drawing on. If anyone were to have asked, "Hey Mtoto, these character poses and the art style look familiar. Why so?" I would have responded with the simple answer that the art I used for reference came from an artist I respect and admire and that his art style is one I wish to be able to grow to be like.

 

I understand that plagiarism is wrong. Stealing is wrong. Blatantly copying someone else's work is wrong. However, in my finished pieces, there are major deviations from anything posted on here. I have yet to post any real final work here or anywhere else.

 

I don't feel what I'm doing is plagiarism because

a.) I'm not doing this and claiming I came up with the source material.

b.) artists in the past have done this same process, yet does that discredit them? - see:

c.) I'm doing this as FAN SERVICE to my friends. It's not meant to be used for commercial use or use to put into a portfolio or anything of that nature.

 

And just to add on to what I was saying earlier about my earlier picture being a work in progress, here is a more finalized (READ STILL WORK TO BE DONE) line art of Zolku.

 

 

And again, here is the reference I used -

http://matteomazzali.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/1974art_archer.jpg?w=600&h=770[/img]

 

I have nothing else to say on the matter aside from the fact that I won't be posting anymore work in progress pieces on here any longer.

 

Also, get off your high horse. Your pompous aura of arrogance is belittling and your quick assumptions based off of things that have yet to be finished shows that you are quick to judge a person before even speaking to them in a civil manner. Next time you have a problem with how I draw, take it up with me via PM. No need to drag the rest of the community underfoot.

[Folken]

Here's some more.

 

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2013/004/8/c/zesiro_ghalib_by_aristotleami-d5q6303.png[/img]

 

[Kylin]

I hate baby-sitting threads when I need to be working on the site redesign :lol:

 

I'm not an artist. I don't pretend to know a thing about it in the slightest. My best ever art piece was the piece I made for Gerik for his bday (lulz). But I do know a thing or two about diplomacy. There are some artists who are just waay too hostile in their critiques to other pieces and artists, just like there are some RPers who are waay too hostile in their critiques toward other RP styles. People need to understand that it's human nature to NOT want to be criticized. As such, criticism is an art in and of itself. Coming out and saying "it sucks, you need to change it" is a recipe for disaster. It's not the critique people are up in arms about. It's the way it came out. I'm going to give an example of how this particular critique could have been handled without any hurt feelings, drama, or any other craziness. The below does not necessarily reflect my own stance. It's merely an example of how people SHOULD handle these kinds of things in my opinion.

 

Wow, Mtoto. I can't wait to see the finished product . I hope this is okay, but can I offer you a couple of hopefully helpful tips? I think that particular piece could end up being misinterpreted by some as just mirroring another existing piece. I think it would be a lot better and more unique if you changed the stance up and, as a result, also change the way the folds in the clothing are. Heck, you may even take it a step further and change the outfit completely if you're feeling daring. By changing the pose, I mean something kinda akin to this:

[spoil][/spoil]

 

Again, looking forward to the final piece. Keep at it. :afro:

 

I really wish people understood that it's not what you say, it's how you say it. On the Internet, it's made worse since tone is mostly lost and you have to go a bit further to create a positive tone.

 

That's all I'll say on the matter. This goes toward criticisms of any nature, whether it's art or something else.

[Aysun]

I think it wouldn't have been such a bickering match if it'd been brought up more tactfully.

 

Finally, it's not really our place to say what has been plagiarized. The artists of the original works can decide that.

[Isilme]

Unless the artist in question is charging for the pics he's producing, or copying art that is only available to those who pay a fee (Obviously not, as they're freely posted here), then I don't see the problem.

 

He's copying poses and gear. So what? You are complaining about something he is producing entirely free, and for his own amusement.

 

It's roughly equivalent to complaining about someone playing a game of GTA IV with cheats on. It's not worth drama.

[Aysun]

Isilme, The poses are identical. The clothing is near identical. The only thing that is different is the color scheme and character faces. On DA he has all these finished works posted with no credits to the original poses there either.

 

It may be fanart, it may be practice, but you can't just claim it as your own if it's not.. People were raving about his talent and such when it wasn't really his own idea. That's why it's plagiarism.

[Zesiro Ghalib]

I think it wouldn't have been such a bickering match if it'd been brought up more tactfully.

 

Finally, it's not really our place to say what has been plagiarized. The artists of the original works can decide that.

 

You just said it wasn't your place to say.

[Aysun]

I think it wouldn't have been such a bickering match if it'd been brought up more tactfully.

 

Finally, it's not really our place to say what has been plagiarized. The artists of the original works can decide that.

 

You just said it wasn't your place to say.

 

Yea I totally talked myself in a circle there. However, finding that these finished works have no credit given on DA either and that it's more than one instance has convinced me otherwise. x_x

[Mtoto Wamoto]

I wasn't aware I had to credit artists based on pose. To that end, I've changed it to reflect that. However, there is a reason I don't sig any of these or put a water mark on them.

[Yssen]

In my experience, those looking for a coup de grace are precisely those trying to win an argument.

 

The wise general considers the cost of victory before seeking it. What did you hope to gain here exactly? Are you pleased with the results? What was the goal? Help me out here, what was the point?

 

I would advise you tone down the zeal a bit. It has blinded you to some key points here your really have missed.

[Folken]

It's so baffling how people cannot see the insult in this process of drawing.

 

 

So let me put it in a way you all could hopefully easier understand.

 

Say you wrote a story for your respective RP character, or hell, even a well thought out backstory which you meticulously typed and wrote. And then you come across someone who has copied what you wrote verbatim. The only differences are that they changed the names and that's it.

 

How would that make you feel, hmm? And then you confront the person who stole your work and they simply say "It was just for my friends! So they could read it! I wasn't going to get it published or sell it!" And yet it still sits there, posted under someone else's name.

 

That is exactly what this is. Just because it's not for profit doesn't make it any less wrong.

 

Mtoto, you have talent, it's apparent. So stop doing this to yourself, you're a better artist than that man. You see a pose you like? Fine, use it, but add yourself to the picture. Make it truly yours, not by just changing a few small details here and there. Experiment and learn, then you'll get good enough you won't have to rely on references so much.

 

One of my favorite artists is Yoji Shinkawa, I adore his art style, and yet, I experiment and I try to emulate his style sometimes. This doesn't mean I copy one of his characters or drawings. I look at his stuff and then try my hand at his style on my own piece. In the end, I've experimented, learned, and grown to be a better artist for it. All done without replicating a piece of his, but instead creating something of my own that emulates his artistic vision.

[Aysun]

I wish you would have said it like that from the beginning.

[Eva]

My view has shifted a bit with the new information and I'm glad to see that Mtoto is offering credit to the original artist in those instances.

 

However my opinion remains unchanged that it's kind of tactless in the way this was brought up. A PM to the artist to address these concerns rather than a public outcry would have saved a lot of senseless drama and confusion.

[Zesiro Ghalib]

I wasn't going to comment earlier due to the fact that I had already said my piece. However, because I stated several times that the things I had posted were works in progress (translate to subject to change if that better suits your tastes) I find it insulting that you go on to call what I'm doing plagiarism. YES, I did use another artists work as influence and inspiration(Akihiko Yoshida's, the artist of FFXIV, to be exact). YES I did use the poses in the respected art works as a base because I wanted to do FANART for my friends. I'm drawing from the pieces I'm looking at, I'm not drawing on. If anyone were to have asked, "Hey Mtoto, these character poses and the art style look familiar. Why so?" I would have responded with the simple answer that the art I used for reference came from an artist I respect and admire and that his art style is one I wish to be able to grow to be like.

 

I understand that plagiarism is wrong. Stealing is wrong. Blatantly copying someone else's work is wrong. However, in my finished pieces, there are major deviations from anything posted on here. I have yet to post any real final work here or anywhere else.

 

I don't feel what I'm doing is plagiarism because

a.) I'm not doing this and claiming I came up with the source material.

b.) artists in the past have done this same process, yet does that discredit them? - see:

c.) I'm doing this as FAN SERVICE to my friends. It's not meant to be used for commercial use or use to put into a portfolio or anything of that nature.

 

And just to add on to what I was saying earlier about my earlier picture being a work in progress, here is a more finalized (READ STILL WORK TO BE DONE) line art of Zolku.

 

 

And again, here is the reference I used -

http://matteomazzali.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/1974art_archer.jpg?w=600&h=770[/img]

 

I have nothing else to say on the matter aside from the fact that I won't be posting anymore work in progress pieces on here any longer.

 

Also, get off your high horse. Your pompous aura of arrogance is belittling and your quick assumptions based off of things that have yet to be finished shows that you are quick to judge a person before even speaking to them in a civil manner. Next time you have a problem with how I draw, take it up with me via PM. No need to drag the rest of the community underfoot.

 

For those that missed. As it seems some have.

[Folken]

b.) artists in the past have done this same process, yet does that discredit them? - see:

 

 

I'll add this is a very poor example to use to prove your point, as Disney owns both of those, they are within their rights to do exactly that. Is it lazy? certainly, but it's not plagiarism because they contractually own the rights to all that material.

[Zesiro Ghalib]

Self-plagiarism

 

Self-plagiarism (also known as "recycling fraud"[50]) is the reuse of significant, identical, or nearly identical portions of one's own work without acknowledging that one is doing so or without citing the original work. Articles of this nature are often referred to as duplicate or multiple publication. In addition to the ethical issue, this can be illegal if copyright of the prior work has been transferred to another entity. Typically, self-plagiarism is only considered to be a serious ethical issue in settings where a publication is asserted to consist of new material, such as in academic publishing or educational assignments.[51] It does not apply (except in the legal sense) to public-interest texts, such as social, professional, and cultural opinions usually published in newspapers and magazines.

In academic fields, self-plagiarism occurs when an author reuses portions of his own published and copyrighted work in subsequent publications, but without attributing the previous publication.[52] Identifying self-plagiarism is often difficult because limited reuse of material is both legally accepted (as fair use) and ethically accepted.[53]

It is common for university researchers to rephrase and republish their own work, tailoring it for different academic journals and newspaper articles, to disseminate their work to the widest possible interested public. However, it must be borne in mind that these researchers also obey limits: If half an article is the same as a previous one, it will usually be rejected. One of the functions of the process of peer review in academic writing is to prevent this type of "recycling".

[Ellie]

I'm pretty sure this falls under fair use. Like it's been said before, he's not profiting off of it, and he's not claiming that it's all his original work. Granted, he could have stated more explicitly that it wasn't entirely his work, sure, but it wasn't like he was really trying to trick people.

 

Shawnzy, you're making this out to be of more consequence than it actually is. Posting more examples won't prove you right, it only confirms what we already know. Maybe you'd be better served by finding an argument for why we should care that someone is tracing art and showing people on the internet.

 

By the way Mtoto, I would strongly recommend that you take any works that are traced like this off DeviantArt. They only allow original works there. Don't want to see you get banned.

 

EDIT: Goodness this thread moves fast. I can see where Shawnzy is coming from, but I highly doubt the original artist would ever find out about Mtoto's stuff. I also agree that tracing isn't a great way to improve, and it sort of cheapens the effect of a piece for me, but I'd also rather not try to be the art police and go around telling people how to draw. You have a right to be upset, Shawnzy, but putting passive aggressive messages in your sig isn't the answer.

[Zesiro Ghalib]

 

http://i.imgur.com/IO8XI.jpg[/img]

 

That doesn't look like any tracing I've ever done.

[Folken]

I'm pretty sure this falls under fair use. Like it's been said before, he's not profiting off of it, and he's not claiming that it's all his original work. Granted, he could have stated more explicitly that it wasn't entirely his work, sure, but it wasn't like he was really trying to trick people.

 

Shawnzy, you're making this out to be of more consequence than it actually is. Posting more examples won't prove you right, it only confirms what we already know. Maybe you'd be better served by finding an argument for why we should care that someone is tracing art and showing people on the internet.

 

By the way Mtoto, I would strongly recommend that you take any works that are traced like this off DeviantArt. They only allow original works there. Don't want to see you get banned.

 

Fair use applies to using a specific copyrighted object in another acceptable way. I.E. Using that exact copyrighted piece. This is a copy/imitation created from a copyrighted piece of artwork, meaning it isn't under fair use. Fair use would be like this very website, the background has artwork that is copyrighted used as the layout, that is fair use.

 

He wasn't trying to trick people? Then why not credit the original artist? Because doing so would belittle his own work he was submitting to be praised by the people of this community. And sure, he does so now, after he's been exposed.

 

And as to why you should care? Why not? Do you not care about other people breaking laws? I certainly don't want my own artwork to be stolen or plagiarized here, would you like your own writings and original work to be stolen too?

 

 

EDIT: Goodness this thread moves fast. I can see where Shawnzy is coming from, but I highly doubt the original artist would ever find out about Mtoto's stuff. I also agree that tracing isn't a great way to improve, and it sort of cheapens the effect of a piece for me, but I'd also rather not try to be the art police and go around telling people how to draw. You have a right to be upset, Shawnzy, but putting passive aggressive messages in your sig isn't the answer.

 

My sig was a direct result of this community's attitude towards this situation. Which now upon further proof so many are quick to change their stance. I would hope in the future these people would not be so quick to denounce another forum poster who is trying to bring to light wrong-doing.

[Rhostel]

Seems like Shawnzy's been stuck in an echo chamber for a while. Perhaps Tumblr, for example. The kind of place where people of similar ideals cluster and pump each other up about those ideals while shouting down anyone who is even a little more moderate. The kind of place that breeds very thin skins. See also, FOX News. *rimshot*

 

Yes, blatant copying without credit, even for harmless, personal works, isn't cool. That said, lashing out blindly because others are more tempered in their attitude to it is not cool either. Hell, even being a jerk about it to the offender isn't cool.

 

You don't even have to be nice. Matter-of-fact is fine. Just lay out your thoughts plainly, don't get passive-aggressive, try to actually understand where other people are coming from instead of nitpicking their comments, and DON'T RAGEQUIT. Bowing out of a conversation? Fine. That's classy. Leaving an entire community in a huff, accusing everyone of something that's demonstrably untrue for most and open to interpretation for the remaining few, and playing the victim when you picked the fight in the first place? That's classless and childish.

 

 

My opinion, for the record: Copying isn't a good way to learn anything but style, because the only way to really understand how to draw right is by training your brain to understand form and anatomy. Copying will teach next to nothing about that unless it's specifically designed as tutorial art. As for style, it's nothing but a reductive element, taking away reality for the sake of impact and simplicity. You're always better off learning your own style, what reductions from reality work best for you, with any influences being passive, not forced.

 

As for copyright infringement, just because it's technically illegal doesn't mean that it's morally wrong. Without some very significant appropriation we wouldn't have some of the most important ideas about what art is or can be: Look at Duchamp or Warhol. Not saying that's the case here, but it is proof that copyright is highly flawed. It should be a protection against depriving the original artist of their ability to earn, and nothing more. (I also think copyright shouldn't be transferable, except to one's heirs at death, but that's a whole other argument.) Mtoto wasn't doing that by any stretch, so copyright as an argument holds no water for me, other than the aforementioned lack of proper credit. Only the learning argument does that for me.

 

(EDITSES: I should have proofread better to make sure the logic behind this was presented more consistently.)