discussion Couerlclaws

[Charity322]

What do we know lore wise about the Couerlclaws?

 

From the Archer Questline it makes it appear as if Pawah Mujuuk is the leader, but I've also heard of the 'Couerlclaw King'. What do we actually know about all that stuff?

 

They're related a bit to one of my char's backstory, so I wanted to know what was known about their organisation.

[Kilieit]

The mailmoogle questchain paints a pretty nasty picture of them. It's described as a "cult" in the quest journal. Warnings for abduction, trafficking, rape and coerced consent, police brutality, gang atmosphere, all that nasty sort of stuff. I only mention some of this stuff in my reply but it's all stuff you're gonna butt up against in researching these guys.

 

 

The Coeurlclaw King is the leader. According to an NPC, he requires his members - all Keeper women - to kill a Wood Wailer in order to induct themselves into the gang, cementing their membership and loyalty... because they'll no longer be able to go anywhere else in the Twelveswood safely. They're no longer allowed contact with their old family members or friends.

 

It seems like plenty of them join willingly or out of hatred for the Wood Wailers, who are recorded in plenty of places as being pretty mean through to downright brutal towards Keepers. (Necessarily meaning Keeper women, as Keeper men are quite rare by comparison.) But others are coerced through one means or another, seemingly especially if the King thinks they're pretty.

 

 

Further reading: absolutely The Past Is A Story We Never Tell. It's a mail moogle quest that involves the NPCs Mauh Lihzeh and Urha Lihzeh. It gives far more detail than the other glimpses we catch of the gang.

[Jana]

I can't look up the quest text myself because I'm at work, but from what I remember the Keepers from the ARC questline are poachers unaffiliated with them, like the common enemies seen in the East Shroud.

[Valence]

Pawah Mujuuk is indeed not a Coeurlclaw. She is your typical half feral Keeper that thinks in the vein of "fuck the elementals, we do what we want and we hunt like we have always hunted". She is the leader of a gang of poachers that cause a lot of trouble to Wood Wailers and God's Quiver.

 

Interestingly enough, the Coeurclaw king shares the same mindset, which is unusual for a male Keeper in itself. In the mogmail quest, he specifically claims that freedom is above all else. Which is arguably hypocritical of him considering how he chains his Keeper women to himself by letting them no choice in the matter. But to his eyes, it's akin to liberating them.

 

Mostly, the Coeurclaw king is a recent phenomena (the guy doesn't look very old) that is said to have grown over the last years. He basically coerce most female Keepers that have issues with the law (either through desperation, misery, or victims of xenophobia and racism), like Urha Liszeh that had to sell herself as well as deal with criminals to make money with the idea to send it back to her ill mother and young little sister. The Coeurclaw king basically offers them a 'shelter' where they can gather and survive. In exchange for well. Everything else.

 

The Coeurlclaw clan is an abomination to Keepers of the Moon. It goes in direct contradiction with their traditional societal structure, which is isolated families of a handful of female individuals raised by their mothers, that get to be visited from time to time by the men folk.

 

It is interestingly enough, close enough to Seeker harems, but not quite. The main difference being that coercion is not part of Seeker societies, and a Nunh isn't necessarily the leader of the tribe either, and actually tolerate other males around as Tias (unlike the Coeurclaw King).

 

To make it short, the Coeurclaw king is not much more than a pimp, using misery and poor people to his ends. The thing I always wondered though, is why female Keepers, that are very matriarchal and usually very well versed in the art of combat, hunting, and generally pretty tough overall, get to be so docile towards him. Perhaps the guy has skills that are not shown ingame. Basically, once gathered together as a bunch of criminals, what do they get from him that they can't get from themselves?

[Charity322]

I knew I'd seen the Couerlclaws mentioned in Pawah Mujuuk's questline and I went back and double-checked. All her allies are labelled as Couerlclaw Hunter, Couerlclaw Poacher etc. in the fights. Could she be part of a group that broke away from the King?

 

Does the King only accept female Keepers? That'll put a dent in my backstory if it's true as I had a male Keeper who was going to join him looking for a father figure he never got at home.

[Valence]

Maybe she is actually working for Coeurlclaws as a loose gang attached to them? I don't remember the exact details of the Archer storyline... So it's possible? It doesn't seem to be clearly stated or denied so... If NPC attacking you are labeled as Coeurlclaws though, I think that you may well be right. Nothing prevents her gang to be working for Him.

 

And according to those few bits:

 

 

 

It seems not to tell it right away but really hints at the King being the only male of the harem indeed but it's not a certainty. From what I gather it looks to me like a single man bullying and forcing a small amount of women into coercion, but I may be influenced by strong games of thrones vibes (Craster's hut).

[Kilieit]

I very much got that impression too (and I don't watch GoT, hehe). I think it's likely he would threaten or kill another male who got too close to "his" women. If he's possessive enough to prevent them from seeing their families, and has an interest in ensuring the only man they lie with is him, why would he allow otherwise? He has nothing to gain from allowing men in his gang, and everything to lose.

 

He's a nasty piece of work, basically.

[Valence]

I'm still unsure how he manages to coerce matriarcally raised women into meekly following him though, added to the fact that most of those girls are not of the faint of heart kind either, or have been forced to get a change of heart. I can totally understand the need for them to find a safe haven when they are basically not safe everywhere else due to their crimes or whatever, but I don't see what prevents one of them to take over, especially a male.

 

Guy is super strong or something?

[S'imba]

Ok so this is just a bunch of theories that make sense to me. 

 

For males I'd imagine he'd do one of three things, ignores them, kills them, or forces them to join and twists the whole Nunh thing by breaking them to make himself look like the only suitable mate. Then just brainwashes females to look upon the males with disdain.

 

As for getting them to join he's probably extremely good with words. Telling them how he's the only one who understands them, how he can help them. I'd imagine he's also seen as a bit of a hero in some keepers eyes. Creating some kind of resistance against Gridania who is crushing out the keeper ways. Then they join up on his crew and he just slowly brainwashes them.

[Kilieit]

Manipulation, coercion, isolation... I would imagine that he is a textbook "abusive sociopath". He's probably strong enough to defeat enough challengers that people don't think it's worth challenging him any more... and he maintains that image through charisma.

 

The way he interacted with Mauh Urha (thank you for correction Valence!) very much reminded me of the way abusive partners can try to charm their way back into the lives of people who are close to getting out. He makes her feel special, convinces her that what she's trying to leave is irreplaceable and vital, and suggests that what he's offering her is worth the "sacrifices" of her social health and mental health. It's a broken economy to any objective outsider, but to Urha at the time - scared of unfamiliarity and of the possibility of facing Wood Wailers, and offered an opportunity to return to familiarity - it makes sense.

 

Through emotional abuse, he convinces the women that they need him and that without his "protection", their lives will be ruined, abandoned to the mercy of the "worse things" in the forest. Even though in reality, it's probably more accurate to say that they are his protection - once he's gained (not earned...) their loyalty, every one of them will defend him to the death. He likely wants power (in general, and over them) and he probably doesn't care if he ruins a family or a self-esteem or two in pursuit of that. As long as there are vulnerable women for him to prey on, he can keep growing his ranks.

 

 

(It's been a while since I did the quest, though, to be honest. So I might be mis-remembering. But that was my take on it.)

 

...it's really dark, anyway. I think we can all agree on that. >_>

[Valence]

Oh yeah it's definitely pure gaslighting and all that associated jazz...

What sitted less with me was the idea that he was actually pulling that out with keeper criminal females... 

 

But... It's true that it definitely fits the case of Ufra (not Mauh!), who was not especially cut initially for a tough life of poaching. I suppose that most of the females he manages to get all have that sort of profile. Except perhaps a tiny fraction of crazy ones that actually believe in him. But from what we see of Ufra, most of them seem pretty miserable, but go to lengths as to convince themselves of the necessity of it. 

 

I have a really, really harder time to imagine someone as Pawah Mujuuk following even the Coeurlclaw king though. How can you even think to gaslight someone like her?

[Kilieit]

Do we know what kind of person Pawah was before she became a Coeurlclaw? Maybe she was really meek and only through Coeurlclaw indoctrination did she come to achieve such ferocity? Maybe the King initially gained her loyalty through blackmail? Maybe she sees joining the King as a way of subverting Gridania's authority, and she did so willingly, either not knowing or not caring about what a piece of work he is?

 

Even so, sometimes a person's biggest victim can end up being their biggest advocate.

In IRL situations where one shitty person is messing up a friend group and the friend group decides to eject them, oftentimes the SO of the shitty person will fiercely defend them and yell at their former friends for being unreasonable - even if they are the primary victim of the shitty person's abuse. It's part of the way being in abusive situations can break your idea of what's reasonable and what isn't; if the abusive person has brainwashed you into thinking their abuse is normal and acceptable, then of course you're going to shout at people who try to "disrupt your perfect life" (give you an opportunity to escape the abuse).

 

[Charity322]

Do we know if the organisation precedes the King or did it start with him? I mean as Valence said a lot of these women do not look beaten down or submissive. I can't imagine Pawah Mujuuk bending over for anyone and with the way she talks to Silvairre it certainly doesn't look like she has respect for males. Is the King maybe only in charge of a faction of the Couerlclaws?

 

I guess unfortunately we simply don't know yet.

 

The Couerlclaws aren't totally evil though.

 

I just got through the bit in the main plot where they and the Redbellies fight with you against the traitorous Wood Wailer, because they support Buscarron. And there's another part where you ask them to keep an eye on the Garleans in the wood.

 

[Valence]

Most of the things in the lore are not evil by essence, except direct servants of Zodiark like Ascians.

 

From all the various quotes we have it seemed to me that the Coeurlclaw king is a relatively new phenomenon growing in power. While poachers is definitely not a new thing, the Coeurlclaw clan seems to be.

 

Do we know what kind of person Pawah was before she became a Coeurlclaw? Maybe she was really meek and only through Coeurlclaw indoctrination did she come to achieve such ferocity? Maybe the King initially gained her loyalty through blackmail? Maybe she sees joining the King as a way of subverting Gridania's authority, and she did so willingly, either not knowing or not caring about what a piece of work he is?

 

Even so, sometimes a person's biggest victim can end up being their biggest advocate.

In IRL situations where one shitty person is messing up a friend group and the friend group decides to eject them, oftentimes the SO of the shitty person will fiercely defend them and yell at their former friends for being unreasonable - even if they are the primary victim of the shitty person's abuse. It's part of the way being in abusive situations can break your idea of what's reasonable and what isn't; if the abusive person has brainwashed you into thinking their abuse is normal and acceptable, then of course you're going to shout at people who try to "disrupt your perfect life" (give you an opportunity to escape the abuse).

 

 

 

It's possible yeah.

[Kilieit]

Yeah, they're basically still just people, who have a vested interest in keeping their home safe of people who would disrupt their way of life (i.e. Garleans). And the King does have to appear reasonable and like he's taking an active interest in protecting their interests - like not allowing them to become Garlean conscripts, lol. So I think it makes sense they'd agree to help. It's not like Buscarron was asking them to do something that would only advance his own interests.

 

Buscarron is a really interesting outlier who seems to break a lot of the rules the Wood Wailers would have us believe are absolute; yet his presence is accepted, if not necessarily supported, by Gridania (and... seemingly, on account of the Druthers isn't a pile of splinters right now... the elementals). I think he also understands that the poachers (and bandits) are basically just people, with a vested interest in keeping their home safe, not suffering, and not dying. Treating them fairly and involving them as allies when it makes sense to doesn't necessarily mean he agrees that they're lovely people or that everything they've done in life is A-OK - it just means he recognises they're capable of wanting to protect their shared home, and of helping to do so, when the Gridanian authorities can't or, more likely, won't.

 

It's sensible of him, I think. I think he did the right thing, even if the worst case scenario is true - that the Coeurlclaws are run by an abusive sociopath who keeps all the women in his group under his metaphorical heel. The Garleans overrunning the forest would be an unequivocally worse situation for everyone in the South Shroud - bandit, poacher, immigrant, adventurer, beastman, and forestborn alike - and even if Buscarron took a hard line against shady sorts (which he doesn't seem to anyway), it's important to make compromises in life-or-death situations like that one had a very real possibility of becoming.

 

(Connie voice) Or that's my interpretation, anyway.

[Charity322]

That's another thing that confuses me. People speak as though the poachers have been a long running pain in the ass, but was it even possible to poach before the elementals were weakened in the Calamity? Originally people couldn't even live there without the elementals' permission; they were that powerful. But can all the bad things in the forest - poachers, Ixal, voidsent, monsters - really have only been around for five years? How powerful were the elementals?

 

Buscarron makes it clear the first time you meet him that everyone is welcome in his establishment as long as they cause no trouble in there, because everyone needs a place to feel safe and drink. I guess the Couerlclaws/Redbellies respect that.

 

As for the Couerlclaw King, he sounds pretty evil. Killing a Wood Wailer as an initiation rite is not something that a non evil person makes their followers do.

 

I wish we had more information.

[Valence]

Yes, before the pact of Gelmorra everything that was basically not ixali was immediately cleansed by the Elementals. However, when the Ixali snapped so bad when elezens and hyurs started to communicate with the Elementals, and got kicked out of the wood, the pact of Gelmorra basically allowed every human race to live there as long as they followed the Elemental's law. 

 

And that's the thing. Poachers are humans. As far as the Elementals are concerned, they are the same thing than any other Gridanian. They live there with the permission of the Elementals. If they screw too much with the order of things, then it's the whole pact of Gelmorra that gets threatened. It brings up Greenwraths and all bad things that Gridanians will do almost anything to prevent. That's why Gridanians are so harsh and uncompromising when it comes to apply elemental law (and not just their local laws). They basically flip their shit at the idea that humans eventually break the pact and all hell gets loose and Elementals can't be appeased anymore.

 

So, before the Calamity, the Elementals were probably a lot quicker to anger and act yes, but at the same time, the Shroud was a lot less under pressure with all those new threats, as you say, like voidsents, poachers, and people breaking the law due to the weakened state of everyone in charge here. So, now that the Calamity has happened, Elementals are probably a lot less almighty there due to their weakened state, but proportionally there is also a whole lot more bad stuff happening with the potential to anger them.

 

The Coeurlclaw king does pretty despicable things yes. And every City state kills hundreds of beast tribe people every month or so, or are guilty of so much racism and xenophobia that it boggles the mind, and Maelstrom privateers pirate and assault garlean mercantile ships, and Thordan did a lot of bad things too to make his Kingdom safe for his people, and Gaius Van Baelsar was ready to make literal genocides to deal with order and the primal threat, etc. 

 

Oh yes, the Coeurlclaw king does a lot of 'evil' things on our moral scale. He also holds a few values that are lot less black. Total freedom, hatred for the Elementals tyranny, protecting all the people that got wronged one way or the other by a society that despise them or decided to toss them aside, even if he does it with very twisted, wicked methods.

 

You can't just paint him all black like you would with an Ascian/Paragon, but you can surely say that the guy's colour is pretty tainted alright. But one of the central concepts of the FFXIV lore (or FF lore in general) is the opposition between mortals, the people living there, with all their flaws and strengths, and the dark, evil forces that actually play on hubris everytime to make civilizations fall, again and again. Xande was not necessarily evil in himself, Gaius or the Garleans certainly not either with their very strong ideals, or Thordan. They just were made so by Ascian influence.

[Charity322]

Easier to put everything under a plot spoiler.

 

 

 

I got the implication that you weren't automatically accepted under the Pact of Gelmorra just because you were a humanoid race. There's that bit in the Main Plot where the Ala Mhigan refugees are rejected by the elementals and everyone is forbidden to do things like heal them. Yet I've seen Couerlclaw Conjurers, implying that they have no problems accessing the elementals' magic. So why did the elementals reject one group who were doing no harm and not reject one that was?

 

The farthest I've gotten in Main Plot so far is where the white robed Ascian appears, so I guess I'll see if they're all evil or not. I didn't, however, get the impression that the City States killed beast tribes that were not hostile. Gridania was getting along with the Sylphs and actively pursuing peace overtures. Non hostile Qiqirn and Goblins are allowed in the cities and you see some as merchants. So I guess I don't see that much racism. I also got the impression that the Garleans started it all and deserved every ship that was raided. Thordan ... I have no idea who he is.

 

Not that I'm saying that everyone on the law's side is all good. It was the Maelstrom that broke the pact with the kobold tribes, after all.

 

[Valence]

The reason of the why, we don't know. I'm not even sure that Hearers themselves get to know precisely why someone gets denied access while another one gets accepted. It is true that it seems to point that to a certain degree Elementals can make a difference between individuals themselves. This is also confirmed by the fact that a greenwrath can be directed at one or a few individuals that pissed off the forest. 

 

Problem is though, that if you do that enough you eventually put Elementals in such a frenzy that they start doing really bad things all around, as can be seen in the CNJ/WhM quest as well as the MSQ. And then it suddenly starts to concern everyone and targets everyone without much care.

 

Why are Coeurlclaws accepted by the Elementals? Well, for once, I think that all of them are initially Gridanian citizens, so they don't come from outside like those mighans. They are directly part of the Pact of Gelmorra by birth. 

 

Your question is interesting though in that I always wondered how all those Keepers of the Moon got into the Shroud initially. What did they do exactly not to be targeted by the Elementals as soon as they crossed the Hedgetrees? Since well, they were not exactly part of Gridania/Gelmorra and had nothing to do with it.

 

 

As for city states tolerating some beast tribes like the Sylph, yes, definitely. City states are not obtuse to the point of killing them all indiscriminately. The thing is though, that we can see that some like the Sahagin, Amajila and the likes, have clans that are not outwardly hostile. We also learn that some of those actually fight for their own survival, like the Sahagin. 

 

We also see in the MSQ that Y'shtola accues Merlwyb and Limsa to have actually perpetuated that genocide against the beast tribes to grab more lands and get rid pragmatically of a threat. She especially tells her that it's not going to be a solution in the long run. Merlwyb just answers that she does what she has to do to defend her people. So yeah, she did stuff that could have been seen outrightly evil, and yet, it was for her people. And if you are not convinced, then just look at the Garleans. They want to get rid of all beast tribes so that they get rid of the primal threat in the first place. Is that evil? Arguably by our standards I can admit, but I would argue also that their reasons are not. 

 

Unlike you know. Ascians that just want to see the world burn.

 

Some qiqirns are allowed into Limsa, or even Ul'dah, but they soon got for example banned out of Ul'dah because they were competing with local merchants. Again, that's an example of scale of grey in my opinion. Of course, you can arguably put some of them lower or higher on the scale of evil vs right, like you would any character between righteous and evil in any tabletop. But I don't subscribe to painting people and factions in broad strokes of black and white, because that's not what is presented by the story. 

 

Garleans started it all? Sure. They got into Silvertears Falls and battled Midgardsomr until the Agrius exploded and liberated so much aether from that point (Silverfall being the bridge between aetheral place and the real one), that primals suddenly became a reality. Did they intend to do that though? I don't think so. They weren't even expecting to fight Dravanians here. 

 

Okay, I won't go into details on Thordan since you have not done that part yet. But keep in mind that he is probably the best example of what I'm trying to say. People like Xande might have been rotten to the core initially so that they were easy to corrupt for Ascians, Thordan however, is a whole different story. Or even Gaius. Was Gaius for a total genocide of all the beast tribes when they started summoning primals all around? Sure. Was Gaius opposed to project Meteor lead by his own people? Sure too.

[LiadansWhisper]

My understanding is that the poachers aren't necessarily accepted by the pact, but they are subject to the pact, since they are within the Hedge. So they didn't agree to follow the pact, but what they do can cause things like a Greenwrath (which those who do follow the pact can be affected by).

 

As to why the Ala Mhigans weren't accepted in Quarrymill, we can either take the Hearer's word for it (e.g. "The Elementals said there is too much hatred in his heart"), or we can note that the same Hearer gives us some completely spurious leve quests to destroy Gelmorran ruins that a pair of Duskwights have come into the area to explore. Note that the same type of ruins exist all over the Twelveswood, and it's only here that, somehow the Elementals are offended.

 

Then note that nothing in lore, quest text, or anything else says that Hearers must be honest or benevolent.

[Charity322]

Yeah, just realised that it is only Limsa where I've seen Qiqirn and Goblin merchants in the city (and some scaly things in the tax line at Mealvaan's Gate). Other cities they're all outside the city itself.

 

I kind of wondered how the Keepers of the Moon fit into the whole pact thing too. A lot of them were specifically mentioned as not being part of Gridania, yet they obviously have not been kicked out of the Shroud by the elementals.

 

As for the Garleans, all they seem to be interested in is taking over other lands and forcing them to accept their rule and their ways. They didn't like the Primals because they were competition.

 

That makes me think about the Hearers' gifts too. I remember E-Sumi-Yan saying that Sylphie inherited hers from her mother, so it doesn't appear as if people are judged by the elementals and then given the gift. It seems to be a natural talent that anyone might have, so I guess you could have bad Hearers who use it for their own gain. Maybe before the Calamity the elementals gave those kind of Hearers a kick up the arse lol.

[Valence]

I'm probably going to nitpick a bit but the Garleans work a lot like the Roman Empire. They do not necessarily conquer land to impose their ways. They conquer to bring order and peace, as mentionned countless times by Baelsar for example. Well at least, that's the official ideal of course. The mileage may vary depending on the person, as for everything. Bad apples everywhere and all that.

 

In any case, they grab new lands, but don't impose that much actually. Especially the less problematic and confrontational the conquered nation proves to be. They get to keep their own laws, rules, culture and governors as long as it doesn't directly conflict with imperial rule above. Garleans are not that much interest into telling people what to do and how to live their lives. What they are interested in is that everyone make their share of duty for the whole Empire itself, working toward civilization and order. 

 

The Garlean Empire is more or less thriving to follow what the Allagan Empire was. A strong, unparalleled rule of Mankind United if you will.

 

The primals are not really competition for them but just the ultimate direct threat. When they launched their fleet above Mor Dhona and got into battle with Midgardsomr and his brood, the fall of the Agrius and the resulting explosion broke the seal of the allagan prison here where all the primals were bound (a bit like Bahamut in the artificial moon Dalamud).

 

The garleans were not prepared for this and as far as I know it was the first time they witnessed primal power. That's where they suddenly shifted their priorities to their pure and total annihilation. As Baelsar said it, they associated the willingness of Eorzeans not to deal with the source of the problem as they saw it: the beast tribes that continuously keep summoning those primals.

 

If you put yourself in their shoes, you have a neighbor that keep say, building up unsafe nuclear plants at your border and keep blowing them up, you are probably going to seriously be pissed at them and take them as a threat. If they don't want to hear you and admit they have a problem of grave safety to be dealt with, you are probably going to eventually want to kick them down. 

 

Well that's the same thing with garleans. Eorzeans don't want to deal with their beast tribes that continue to summon extremely potent, unpredictable and dangerous weapons (primals). Garleans, being a bit extreme in all they do, then considered eorzeans as traitors and beast tribe protectors. Thus, condoning primals essentially, so they deemed eorzeans as part of the threat themselves.  That's basically what Baelsar tells the Warrior of Light when he gets totally baffled that the WoL is actually talking with beast tribes.

 

It is, of course, hypocritical of garleans since they are after all at the origin of why the primals got free of their allagan prison. It gets even more ironic as the garleans basically gave unconsciously the means for beast tribes to oppose their eorzean oppressors by summoning those primals.

 

---

 

The Hearer gift is twofold: you can like Sylphie be a natural at it, and then train to understand it and not just Hear, but you can also not be a natural at it like most conjurers, and work hand in hand with nature and elementals to eventually be able, maybe, someday, to Hear like a newborn natural would.

 

Bad apples among Hearers is probably a thing, like in any job or milieu really. If you dont want to get caught, then you have to be careful and good at tricking your peers. And I bet that in the case of Hearers, you would have to trick padjals, which is no small feat.

 

But at the same time, once you get above that (since padjals are few and scarse), you basically get a free pass to make up whatever you want since well, you are the only one to Hear anyway, so who cares if you tell lies? The trick is just not to make up any shit too big for any other conjurer or Hearer to notice that you are just being a little shit...

 

And also, the Elementals probably don't care if you make up shit. They will just start caring if it disturbs the balance of the Wood. But if you say "That mighan family is NOT approved by the Elementals" because you are a racist asshole of a Hearer, why would Elementals even care? Human problems. Racism is not even a thing among Elementals. They wouldn't even be able to say it's racism anyway, they wouldn't know the concept.

[LiadansWhisper]

Yeah, just realised that it is only Limsa where I've seen Qiqirn and Goblin merchants in the city (and some scaly things in the tax line at Mealvaan's Gate). Other cities they're all outside the city itself.

 

Historically, the Amalja'a(sp?) were permitted in Ul'dah, and traded with its citizens, but something happened (Sounsyy probably has the details) that caused the treaty between Ul'dah and the Amalja'a to be broken and you no longer see them there.

 

I kind of wondered how the Keepers of the Moon fit into the whole pact thing too. A lot of them were specifically mentioned as not being part of Gridania, yet they obviously have not been kicked out of the Shroud by the elementals.

 

I don't think you necessarily have to be a part of Gridania to be a part of the pact, but in the case of the Keepers, the Elementals don't seem to necessarily be able to differentiate between Gridanians and outsiders in the forest. You have to do something to incur their irritation or anger to get their attention, most of the time.

 

They didn't like the Primals because they were competition.

 

They don't like the Primals for the same reason everyone else doesn't like Primals - Primals destroy the land by their very existence.

 

That makes me think about the Hearers' gifts too. I remember E-Sumi-Yan saying that Sylphie inherited hers from her mother, so it doesn't appear as if people are judged by the elementals and then given the gift. It seems to be a natural talent that anyone might have, so I guess you could have bad Hearers who use it for their own gain. Maybe before the Calamity the elementals gave those kind of Hearers a kick up the arse lol.

 

There's no indication that the Elementals have any sort of control over who is born with the "gift" of being able to Hear. The first mentions appear to indicate that the ability came about sometime during or after the Gelmorrans were taught Conjury by the Moogles, so it's possible that it's related to Conjury itself. Every Padjal is a Hearer, but not every Hearer is a Padjal, so perhaps it was a stepping stone? Either way, it does appear to be an inherited trait, and we most often see it in Hyur and Elezen, but there's nothing to say that a Miqo'te or Lalafell couldn't be born with the ability. It's just very unlikely.

 

The Hearer gift is twofold: you can like Sylphie be a natural at it' date=' and then train to understand it and not just Hear, but you can also not be a natural at it like most conjurers, and work hand in hand with nature and elementals to eventually be able, maybe, someday, to Hear like a newborn natural would.[/quote']

 

I can't recall any quest text that indicates that someone can train into the ability. It seems to be inherited, and is said to be very rare. That the Warrior of Light is able to Hear Elementals at certain points (mostly in 1.0 it seems) seems to be probably related to their gift with the Echo, which provides you with the ability to speak any language (including, it would seem, "Elemental").

 

I just haven't seen anything to back Hearers being anything but born. They have to train to refine their abilities, but if people who weren't born with the gift could just train to become a Hearer, there would be a lot more Hearers and they are apparently quite rare. Not as rare as Padjal, but far rarer than Conjurers in general.

 

Bad apples among Hearers is probably a thing, like in any job or milieu really. If you dont want to get caught, then you have to be careful and good at tricking your peers. And I bet that in the case of Hearers, you would have to trick padjals, which is no small feat.

 

I don't see why you'd have to trick your peers. Hearers don't seem to be assigned in groups - we only ever really see one at a time. If no one else in your group can Hear, then who is going to know you're lying through your teeth? The Townsfolk revere Hearers almost as much as Padjal, and aren't going to gainsay them, and the Elementals don't know that you're lying because they apparently can't understand mortal speech anymore than most people can understand Elemental speech.

 

But at the same time, once you get above that (since padjals are few and scarse), you basically get a free pass to make up whatever you want since well, you are the only one to Hear anyway, so who cares if you tell lies? The trick is just not to make up any shit too big for any other conjurer or Hearer to notice that you are just being a little shit...

 

It would be very difficult for a Conjurer to a) detect that the Hearer was lying and, b) more importantly, prove that the Hearer was lying, since the average Conjurer can't Hear and wouldn't have any way of knowing that the Hearer in question was lying through their teeth. As far as tricking other Hearers, since they don't seem to ever really be given assignments in groups, outside of a very few instances, I would imagine it doesn't come up a lot unless someone complains to another Hearer. Even then, who would the Hearer believe? The other Hearer, who they trust, or some random dude?

 

And also, the Elementals probably don't care if you make up shit. They will just start caring if it disturbs the balance of the Wood. But if you say "That mighan family is NOT approved by the Elementals" because you are a racist asshole of a Hearer, why would Elementals even care? Human problems. Racism is not even a thing among Elementals. They wouldn't even be able to say it's racism anyway, they wouldn't know the concept.

 

They wouldn't know you were lying in the first place because they can't understand mortal speech. That's the entire point of Hearers existing.

[Valence]

On conjurers training enough to become Hearers, this seems to hint pretty strongly in favor of it I believe.

 

I believe when you are a Hearer and start telling people shit because you can, it would be a bit disingenuous to think that for some reason, people, especially other Hearers and padjals, would never notice that weird Hearer saying all sorts of weird biased stuff all around eventually. That's really not putting much weight on their actual cunning and wisdom.

 

Thus, you have to be cautious of what you say and how obvious it would be for others, especially your peers, to see that you are full of shit. It is true that acting often on your own without a padjal or two to check on your back at every second sure helps, but still... Also, nothing says that because we see a Hearer in Quarrymill distributing dubious leves alone, that Hearers ALWAYS act alone. I'm sure they talk to each other like anybody else, but heh, who knows, I don't recall any precise lorebit telling that they always act alone or in groups.

[Charity322]

I'm pretty sure I remember E-Sumi-Yan telling my Conjurer that Hearing wasn't something that could be taught. You either had the gift or you didn't.

 

The thing is, that Hearer at Quarrymill who was saying that the elementals had rejected the Ala Mhigans makes it sound as if the elementals approve everyone who wants to live in the Shroud. Maybe since the Calamity things like the Ixal have got in because the elementals are weak, but the Keepers predate the Calamity so unless the Hearer is lying then they must have been accepted at some point. And if the Hearer is lying then she really should have been busted by now because she's lying about stuff that anyone can ask around about and get a different answer on.