Ideas of Keeper family dynamics?

[luxemas]

M'kay so this one I've been scratching my head trying to find some details on but I dunno if its every been brought up to this kind of level, but its something I'm trying to figure out for my Keeper Miqo'te.

Like... how does a lot of family stuff play out? I'm aware that Keepers are more matriarchal, but a couple things I'm unsure to think about are

• Are families the typical two parents with each child being from the same parents?
  
• What are the expectations and responsibilities of children? Do things like age or birth order play part?
  
• How close are parents with their children? Both mother or father? Do those relationships differ strongly based on gender?
  
• Is sibling tensions and rivalry common? Competition for parental or community attention?
  

I mean... I know that's some pretty nitty gritty stuff, but at least for myself in writing characters, its something I tend to find rather valuable in gauging how they deal with relating to strangers and building relationships.

 

For a bit of context, my Keeper is named Tali'ra which would make him the fifth born son in his family (which yes I know, quite rare, but its one of those things where you picked the name first before realizing the context) and in that sense I figure he'd be something of a total Momma's boy? But I'm also not sure if having so many male children would seem like... obscene in some way so I'm just here kinda like how do I write out this boy's past.

[Valence]

Are families the typical two parents with each child being from the same parents?

 

Not necessarily, as Keeper society mostly seems to revolve around wandering males showing up at times in those matriarchal families. It's not much of a stretch to assume that since they probably rarely stay up for life, then a mother can probably meet several of them. This of course is tempered by the fact that males are few (thus why they move between clans).

 

If we look into the lore, most Keepers don't seem to talk much about their precise family nucleus, but the only example I have in mind (and the biggest source of info on Keepers) is the family of Urha and Mauh Lihzeh, who are both female children to a single mother (so a very small family, not even a clan, because they live in the city). It is not clearly stated if they are from the same father, but hints strongly suggest that is not the case. One, the father(s) is/are never ever mentionned, because it's mostly irrelevant for them. Two, Uhra seems to be at least 15 years older than her sister that she had to take care of when she was a mewling child. Three, keepers men are known to wander around in the wilderness, while women keep the hearth, and accept game and trade from menfolk when they show up, added to the fact that she speaks of the Coeurlclaw King (King Poach) as doing things most unnaturally, forcing women to lie with him and him alone.

 

With that in mind it's not much of a stretch indeed to conclude that they are not of the same father, even if it's not clearly stated (so it could be the opposite too). But yeah the combination of how things are supposed to play (in her eyes) in Keeper families, how she speaks about men and how they are kept irrelevant in family matters, and how they move between families and clans, and how both sisters are quite not of the same age, I tend to think that way.

 

All of that to say, I think, that both cases can be made as we seem to have much leeway, since nothing prevents a Keeper family to have two parents giving birth to several children as we are not really informed on how long males tend to stay with the mother, added to the fact that it can probably also vary depending on individuals and whatnot. However, the standard model told by the lore is about males moving between families and clans, so... Expect a lot of mothers to have been with several fathers.

 

What are the expectations and responsibilities of children? Do things like age or birth order play part?

 

We don't have much info on what expectations for children, so I would wager that it's like for anyone in Eorzea really. Farmer child? Probably help at the farm. Fisher child? Same. Noble or wealthy child? Probably a lot more options.

 

Birth order seems to at least play on the naming conventions for Keeper males, that all is clear. We don't seem to have info on matriarchal order or anything like that. It's not even clear in bigger Keeper clans who leads and on what basis they are put there to begin with, if there is anyone that actually leads as a matriarch anyway. Keep in mind though that Keeper clans and families are explicitly said to be way smaller than Seeker tribes, so... I suppose the question becomes a lot less relevant here. Only things for sure is, women are in charge, since men only show occasionally and never stay that long.

 

How close are parents with their children? Both mother or father? Do those relationships differ strongly based on gender?

 

The relationship between sisters, and mothers, and females in general, seems to be one of very close and loving families, as depicted in most quests related to Keepers. It of course doesn't mean it will always be the case though. But expectations are ones of very close proximity and mutual 'love'. And there is also their divinity, Menphina.

 

Fathers however, seem to be considered as mostly irrelevant. Male offsprings also leave to wander pretty young, although your mileage can probably also vary here.

 

It's an interesting society in that males thus turn into occasional encounters, lovers of a few days or months, small adventurers in the life of most Keeper girls who spend 99.9% of their time with... other girls. It's one of those species where the gap between males and females is so huge that both genders seem almost like of a different race.

 

Is sibling tensions and rivalry common? Competition for parental or community attention?

 

Again, no lore on that as far as I know. Hard to say, and like for most families of most races, that can be many things. There is probably in some families, and none in others...

 

Since the emphasis seems to be put rather strongly on family bonds between women though, I would find reasonable to assume that those tensions are probably less common than with other races. Tensions between males and females though, might be way higher?

 

---

 

All in all, I think the best to keep in mind is that lore for now seems to give a lot of leeway on that, and also not only lore, but what's to be expected in life, really. Those are things that just can't be totally uniform and always the same for every individuals. Keepers are not only from the Shroud, but pretty much from everywhere. Lominsan Keepers probably have different customs, as well as Sharlayan ones, or even the ones living still on Meracydia, or even Othard? And then you have also the difference between integrated Keepers living in cities, and the ones still living as clans outside.

 

I suppose in Miqo'te societies, having so many male offspring might be seen as a blessing, at least for Seekers. For Keepers I think you can probably make a case why it would seem embarrassing or at the contrary pretty awesome, depending on the view on males the mother/family have.

 

Would the mother have learned her trade after the first 4 male children she had? Probably. Does that imply that she will want to keep him longer with her? Or the opposite, putting him younger on the road? Up to you I guess.

[Qwynn]

We can make some assumptions based around the evidence we currently have regarding Keeper family structure.

 

Keeper families which live together and share space are much smaller than Seeker tribes, and the birthrate of men is low. The families themselves are matriarchal and the men, while performing various trades, tend to be represented as travelers. This itself would make sense if their birthrate is as low as suggested; men traveling between families and potentially laying with the women would certainly keep the bloodlines moving. Miqo'te as a whole seem to consider polyamory the norm compared to traditional monogamy. This would certainly lead to many, many half-siblings all from the same mother, but various fathers.

 

That said, it's not that farfetched that some men would choose to remain and live with their mother's family and aid in child rearing or other various activities.

 

As an aside, I want to point out that a matriarchal society doesn't necessarily mean the men are treated poorly or lesser than the women. It just means the women are in charge and/or family lines follow the mothers; children are part of the mother's family, not the fathers.

 

Considering Keeper family units are meant to be smaller than Seeker tribes, as mentioned, we can probably assume leadership isn't really as much as a necessity as it is in Seeker dynamics. There would be a family matriarch, potentially the oldest woman bearing the family name. She might lead the family, or the family may be more egalitarian. We just don't really know.

 

Roles of children would probably follow the same pattern as other families: learning the trade of the parent(s) or other family members depending on the needs of the family.

 

We're shown that women tend to be close in their relationships: mothers and their daughters, sisters, cousins. Once again, we lack a lot of information here. Personally I'd find it hard to believe that sons aren't close to their mothers. They bear their mother's name quite literally and are raised in an environment where mothers supposedly plays an important role. As far as I'm concerned, most Keeper men are probably momma's boys.

 

Hopefully the lore booking coming out soon will give us more information on various race dynamics.

[Valence]

I would like to point out that while I totally agree that Seeker societies embrace polyamory due to their harem structure, I am not so sure about Keepers. Maybe they indeed see several men at a time for some, but considering the rarity of those, I would find to see two or even more males showing up at the same time quite... rare. Even if it surely happens at times, but that would be far from being the norm.

 

Jumping from momentous frolicking after frolicking, sure, but that doesn't make those ephemeral relationships polyamorous.

[luxemas]

Ah dang, thanks for the really good thoughts! I dunno nearly as much of the Lore stuff as y'all do (last time I played I kinda was focused on playing catch-up with friends so I'm positive I blew past some good lore tidbits) so its much appreciated to even just get a grasp of things.

 

I'm aware that stuff regarding Miqo'te tribes and groups isn't exactly all or none concrete, but it at least gives me more to build from regarding the family and community Tali'ra came from.

 

Having step siblings I figured wouldn't be too far fetched either and especially with bigger age gaps. Though now its gotten my brain sizzling on an idea that I could apply to my character more...

 

I suppose given the dynamics, it wouldn't be too far fetched to have children (male or female) to reunite with their kin? Possibly to trade stories or offerings with parent(s) and sibling(s).

[Qwynn]

I would like to point out that while I totally agree that Seeker societies embrace polyamory due to their harem structure, I am not so sure about Keepers. Maybe they indeed see several men at a time for some, but considering the rarity of those, I would find to see two or even more males showing up at the same time quite... rare. Even if it surely happens at times, but that would be far from being the norm.

 

Jumping from momentous frolicking after frolicking, sure, but that doesn't make those ephemeral relationships polyamorous.

 

I guess that depends on how you view both the dynamics of Keeper families and polyamory both?

 

There's a lot of scenarios: A Keeper woman with a primary partner that remains with the family and who has multiple other traveling partners who she has had children with; A Keeper woman with a primary partner who travels as well as multiple other traveling partners she has had children with; A Keeper woman without a primary partner at all, yet various traveling partners she has had children with.

 

Any scenario where multiple, consenting partners are involved and who all know there are multiple partners involved would be polyamory, no? Of course, I'm working under the assumption said couplings with a goal of children are actual relationships and not one-offs (which would indeed happen as well).

 

Polyamory isn't necessarily physically at the same time.

 

Keeper Woman has children with Keeper Man 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, & 6. Three and five were one-night stands and accidental children. One, two, four, and six she is in relationships with and cares deeply for. That'd be a type of polyamory.

 

And that's only considering heterosexuality!

 

The nice thing though is that since we have so little lore, and Keeper families aren't really establishes like Seeker tribes are, players can use their own interpretations of what they're given for their own Keeper families. Since I'm sure each family does things just a little differently.

[Sounsyy]

A lot of good lore has been dropped on Keeper family structure already, so I'll just drop in and add the source text for what's above.

 

The men of the Keepers of the Moon live a wanderer's life' date=' for they are at their best in small doses. Women and children keep the hearth, ply various trades, and accept game and visits from the menfolk. But King Poach denies women this gods-given rule over matters of family. He forces women to live with him, forbids them to see their sisters, mothers, aunts. Most unnaturally, they lie with him and him alone! So terrible are their crimes that all Keepers of the Moon feel the suspicion and fear cast their way.[/quote']

 

I grew up in a household as the third daughter of five. As you likely already know' date=' we Keepers of the Moon are not raised with a father, so it was just my mother with us at home. Now, of course, I live on my own. After one of my older sisters moved to Ul'dah, I decided to follow her example and leave the Black Shroud.[/quote']

 

The Keepers of the Moon lead more solitary lives, rarely forming communities of more than two or three families. Therefore, a tribal letter is not assigned to the names.

 

Though there are ten suffixes listed above, rarely do even the largest Keeper of the Moon families have more than two or three sons. This is not by choice. Nature merely sees to it that more females are born to this race.

 

More lore on Keeper Miqo'te can be found under the Miqo'te tab in the Racial Lore Masterpost. Hope this helps! ^^

[Valence]

 

I guess that depends on how you view both the dynamics of Keeper families and polyamory both?

 

There's a lot of scenarios: A Keeper woman with a primary partner that remains with the family and who has multiple other traveling partners who she has had children with; A Keeper woman with a primary partner who travels as well as multiple other traveling partners she has had children with; A Keeper woman without a primary partner at all, yet various traveling partners she has had children with.

 

Any scenario where multiple, consenting partners are involved and who all know there are multiple partners involved would be polyamory, no? Of course, I'm working under the assumption said couplings with a goal of children are actual relationships and not one-offs (which would indeed happen as well).

 

Polyamory isn't necessarily physically at the same time.

 

Keeper Woman has children with Keeper Man 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, & 6. Three and five were one-night stands and accidental children. One, two, four, and six she is in relationships with and cares deeply for. That'd be a type of polyamory.

 

And that's only considering heterosexuality!

 

The nice thing though is that since we have so little lore, and Keeper families aren't really establishes like Seeker tribes are, players can use their own interpretations of what they're given for their own Keeper families. Since I'm sure each family does things just a little differently.

 

Well that's the thing. I don't necessarily go against the idea of Keeper females entertaining several relationships at the same time, but I don't see how they would somehow do it more than other races. Because of Seekers and their harems maybe? Yeah, they are of the same race for sure. But that seems to me more about societal traditions rather than genetical ones no?

 

So yeah, it's possible. Is it more frequent or a defining trait of the Keeper clans? I don't think so, or at least nothing to my eyes seems to hint in that direction... Ah well, perhaps the fact that they generally don't have lasting relationships (cf Masha's quote above), so since they don't envision relationships the same way, and see them as flirtatious and momentous relationships without commitment and years ahead in the future, then... maybe several at a time, as I said above, is a possibility, but considering how rare males showing up at the same time are...

 

The thing is, you seem to think that lasting relationships are part of Keeper clans as well, and yet, everything I read in the lore seems to say otherwise, aka, brief relationships before the male leaves. As I said above I see nothing that prevents an odd, peculiar male to appear and who will pair with an equally odd, peculiar female... Especially in Keeper societies living in cities, where they probably see a lot more (sometimes recurring) males around...?

 

But yeah, lore seems to go in the other direction.

[luxemas]

A lot of good lore has been dropped on Keeper family structure already, so I'll just drop in and add the source text for what's above....

 

Oh that is some great material to work with! Thank you, that really helps in being able to hear about that sort of thing from the horse's (or I guess cat's?) mouth.

[luxemas]

The thing is, you seem to think that lasting relationships are part of Keeper clans as well, and yet, everything I read in the lore seems to say otherwise, aka, brief relationships before the male leaves. As I said above I see nothing that prevents an odd, peculiar male to appear and who will pair with an equally odd, peculiar female... Especially in Keeper societies living in cities, where they probably see a lot more (sometimes recurring) males around...?

 

I mean like any kind of demographic or culture, its not always gonna be so simple a everyone sticking to a hard line rule book. However, getting a general idea of the perceived norm (regardless of how much it is or isn't enforced) does at least give a more fleshed out idea of a family or community for that matter and how they perceive or relate to things like heritage and tradition, so really its pretty good to be hearing about the different outcomes as well as any possible motivation behind them.

[Qwynn]

 

I guess that depends on how you view both the dynamics of Keeper families and polyamory both?

 

There's a lot of scenarios: A Keeper woman with a primary partner that remains with the family and who has multiple other traveling partners who she has had children with; A Keeper woman with a primary partner who travels as well as multiple other traveling partners she has had children with; A Keeper woman without a primary partner at all, yet various traveling partners she has had children with.

 

Any scenario where multiple, consenting partners are involved and who all know there are multiple partners involved would be polyamory, no? Of course, I'm working under the assumption said couplings with a goal of children are actual relationships and not one-offs (which would indeed happen as well).

 

Polyamory isn't necessarily physically at the same time.

 

Keeper Woman has children with Keeper Man 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, & 6. Three and five were one-night stands and accidental children. One, two, four, and six she is in relationships with and cares deeply for. That'd be a type of polyamory.

 

And that's only considering heterosexuality!

 

The nice thing though is that since we have so little lore, and Keeper families aren't really establishes like Seeker tribes are, players can use their own interpretations of what they're given for their own Keeper families. Since I'm sure each family does things just a little differently.

 

Well that's the thing. I don't necessarily go against the idea of Keeper females entertaining several relationships at the same time, but I don't see how they would somehow do it more than other races. Because of Seekers and their harems maybe? Yeah, they are of the same race for sure. But that seems to me more about societal traditions rather than genetical ones no?

 

So yeah, it's possible. Is it more frequent or a defining trait of the Keeper clans? I don't think so, or at least nothing to my eyes seems to hint in that direction... Ah well, perhaps the fact that they generally don't have lasting relationships (cf Masha's quote above), so since they don't envision relationships the same way, and see them as flirtatious and momentous relationships without commitment and years ahead in the future, then... maybe several at a time, as I said above, is a possibility, but considering how rare males showing up at the same time are...

 

The thing is, you seem to think that lasting relationships are part of Keeper clans as well, and yet, everything I read in the lore seems to say otherwise, aka, brief relationships before the male leaves. As I said above I see nothing that prevents an odd, peculiar male to appear and who will pair with an equally odd, peculiar female... Especially in Keeper societies living in cities, where they probably see a lot more (sometimes recurring) males around...?

 

But yeah, lore seems to go in the other direction.

 

So are you suggesting Keepers don't have lasting relationships at all between men and women, then? (With the exception of familial ones: Mothers and sons, etc).

 

I'd honestly accept everyone as queer. That's a good outcome, too.

 

We also don't really know what constitutes brief. Is it a day? A week? A month? Anything not permanent?

 

I guess the catch is that how we define monogamy, polyamory, and relationships is not necessarily the same as how Keepers would define them as such. From an outside perspective (that is, as a human player looking at the structure) it looks like a type of polyamory to me, but not to you! And that's okay!

 

We just interrupted the same scrapes of lore slightly differently.

[Parzival Baur]

I am currently on mobile so I cannot make an elaborate response at the moment. I will leave you with a link to my Traditional/Tribal Keeper's personal lore document I created for his family. You are more than welcome to peruse it for inspiration and adopt any of my brain-vomit into your own canon, if you so desire.

 

Sources of inspiration include bits of Mongolian and Hindu cultures, and traces of others. I mashed this and that together to create my own thing. The document touches on most what you inquired about, including children, and the roles of men and women. Keep in mind this tribe is nomadic in nature. It thrives within the Wilderness and has not been modernized.

 

If that all sounds good, here's the link!

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/177WTbwciLu2Jm3TrYsAao148fQ5qHUAahkJOSPlinsY

[Knight Kat]

Hi, so I’ve played a Keeper of the Moon who was raised in a traditional/old fashioned family for nearly three years now, and I’ve read all the lore I know of. I’ve also spent many hours theory-crafting what Kiht’s childhood and life would have been like before she entered into the life in which I’ve played out over the last three years.

 

Some parts of your questions can be answered with lore while other parts need a little theory-craft. Instead of echoing the lore already posted above, I will confirm and tell you what I think.

 

 

Are families the typical two parents with each child being from the same parents?

 

I would say: not usually. Adult males wander, and their birthrate is far lower than that of females. There is a greater chance that a male will sire many children with several different partners in his lifespan, and as he leaves one mate behind, that mate may meet a different wandering male later.

 

Most lore I have seen has Keepers talking about being raised by their mothers. No mention of the father.

 

However, I thought of one possible way for Keepers to know of their fathers. I think it’s possible a male may wander back to a mate he has had before, and may meet his children. I think this might be uncommon, but I don’t see why it would never happen. People can develop preferences, and I could imagine a wandering male developing a preference for a certain female or group of them. Why not?

 

[*]What are the expectations and responsibilities of children? Do things like age or birth order play part?

 

Males are named based on birth order, but because they don't usually stay with the family as adults, I doubt it plays any part in social hierarchy.

 

My theory is they are named by order as a means of showing how many sons a single female has. I could imagine it being a prestigious thing for a female to have many sons since they are usually so rare. Otherwise, why give them their mother’s name along with the suffix? I believe Keepers might care who the mother of a male was, or they’d just give them random forenames.

 

Females -may- have social hierarchy based on birth order because they usually remain with the family, and that likely means the eldest daughter will inherit roles, responsibilities and property of the mother. This is just an assumption on my part.

 

 

[*]How close are parents with their children? Both mother or father? Do those relationships differ strongly based on gender?

 

I'd imagine most fathers don't usually grow close to their children since they would have them with multiple mates through their lives. As you already saw, this is pretty backed-up by lore.

 

However, mothers do raise their children directly, and this includes their sons and daughters both. I really don’t think males could survive as lone wanderers unless they were strong and knowledgeable. They are probably taught how to hunt, fight and survive on their own. This means lots of training from their family which would be made up of mostly females.

 

I’ve never seen lore to suggest males are given the boot as children. This would be a horrible idea. Males are rare enough by birthrate, and to make a small minority even smaller by casting them out to grow and survive in nature seems like Keepers would be inviting extinction. The Black Shroud is -not- a safe place.

 

I’d be more willing to accept that males are grown and trained until they come of age then are given an encouraging boot.

 

It is insinuated that adult males are only welcomed in short spurts. So my theory is they prepare the boys for a long, nomadic life.

 

Some have hypothesized that males are treated as lesser, or downright abused. But I don't think so. Abusing males would make them fearful of females, and less likely to visit with their "gifts of game" for some romance. Keepers also worship Menphina the Lover as their patron goddess. "The Lover". Unless all males are born as masochists, I don't see abuse as being true to Menphina.

 

I only mention this because I see it as a common theme for many male Keeper player characters to think females are horrible because they abuse males. I don’t think that’s actually common lore-wise.

 

 

 

[*]Is sibling tensions and rivalry common? Competition for parental or community attention?

 

Keepers live in small, tight-knit groups of two or three families. These groups seem to be informal as they are often nameless. There’s been countless arguments about what to even call a Keeper group (clan, sept, tribe?). The lore doesn’t name them.

 

To me, this means the members of these groups would have to be highly cooperative, and every member would be important because of limited numbers.

 

That said, Keepers are known to have a reputation for tenacity. This shows in most Keeper NPCs you encounter. Females can’t rely on males to serve much of a role in their society, so they take on every job that needs to be done. Males are independent and solitary, so they have to be tough, “lone wolves” or they die to a house-sized scorpion or something.

 

I imagine this tenacity can breed tensions and rivalries. But within families, this is likely kept in some kind of check for the sake of close-knit cooperation.

 

 

 

I mean... I know that's some pretty nitty gritty stuff, but at least for myself in writing characters, its something I tend to find rather valuable in gauging how they deal with relating to strangers and building relationships.

 

I respect you for going into this sort of detail with your character while using the lore for reference.

 

For a bit of context, my Keeper is named Tali'ra which would make him the fifth born son in his family (which yes I know, quite rare, but its one of those things where you picked the name first before realizing the context) and in that sense I figure he'd be something of a total Momma's boy? But I'm also not sure if having so many male children would seem like... obscene in some way so I'm just here kinda like how do I write out this boy's past.

 

This has come up a lot. The typical approach is: his mother could be blessed for having male offspring more than most other females. I doubt it would be seen as crazy; lore wouldn’t mention naming conventions for up to ten sons if it -never- happened. It’s just very rare.

 

That said, I’d bet you the family would raise all the boys the same way they raise any boys.

 

Also keep in mind that there can always be exceptions to rules and commonalities. Let the lore inspire you and guide you, but not dictate what your character must be. Sometimes it’s fun to be contrary too.

[luxemas]

I am currently on mobile so I cannot make an elaborate response at the moment. I will leave you with a link to my Traditional/Tribal Keeper's personal lore document I created for his family. You are more than welcome to peruse it for inspiration and adopt any of my  brain-vomit into your own canon, if you so desire.

Ah thank you so kindly! I'll be sure to take a look at it later tonight when I'm in wind down research before bed mode.

 

Hi, so I’ve played a Keeper of the Moon who was raised in a traditional/old fashioned family for nearly three years now, and I’ve read all the lore I know of. I’ve also spent many hours theory-crafting what Kiht’s childhood and life would have been like before she entered into the life in which I’ve played out over the last three years.

 

Some parts of your questions can be answered with lore while other parts need a little theory-craft. Instead of echoing the lore already posted above, I will confirm and tell you what I think.   

 Much thanks as well for the detailed thoughts and observations. The varying perspectives have been a tremendous help in plotting out Tali'ra's place in the world.

 

Though thanks to everyone here for the input. I'm generally the sort of person who'd read D&D supplementals back to front to be better immured in the world and give my characters a much stronger root to the earth, so this has all been quite helpful!

[Zhuto Zhanarah]

Just wanted to poke my nose in here and thank everyone who has been working hard to collect and post both definitive lore and their own interpretations of the blanks spaces therein.  I have recently returned to the game and have been working on my new character, who is also a Keeper raised in a more traditional environment.  This thread has been very helpful in fleshing out the minor details of her backstory.