ACN VS CNJ as healer

[Ildur]

I tanked for a PuG in the Deepcroft where the arcanist kept his topaz carbuncle out the whole time. I asked him why he was using it, and his answer was twofold:

"He deals the same damage as the other" and "It spreads aggro across enemies."

So, based on this extremely scientific statistical data of exactly one person, I induct that people think that Topy makes Emy redundant.

 

The second argument has some merit in that it can be used as a form of crowd control if Topy is micromanaged. This could come handy in later dungeons; I've heard the difficulty ramps a lot suddenly.

[FreelanceWizard]

I think some people believe that, since it's "Summon II", it must be better than "Summon I". Alas, no. Emerald does noticeably more DPS than Topaz, and that's even without going into parsing detail.

[Falkner]

seriously? can anyone tell me why CNJ should be played for anything more than acess to the level 12 skills and jobs?

 

This is only CNJ vs ACN right? Not WHM vs SCH

 

Well, this is from my personal obsevation and experiences playing a WHM:

 

♦ Both CNJ and ACN can resurrects allies in combat.

♦ Both have access to knockback if the situation demands it.

♦ Both have access to Heavy debuff to slows down mobs.

♦ CNJ has an enhanced Protect buff that not only raises Defense of the party but also the Magic Defense.

♦ CNJ has early access to Esuna to dispel debuffs, something that only a Scholar could receive in level 40.

♦ CNJ also has access to Repose to put enemy to sleep, a very vital (30sec+15sec) crowd control in dungeons.

♦ CNJ has Medica and Cure III as emergency area heals, and

♦ CNJ has two types of single target healing to suit the situation, the normal Cure (300 potency) and the higher-heals-higher-manacost Cure II with 500 healing potency; Good to quickly fills the massive HP of Marauders and Warriors or to fully heals a Paladin from even half of his HP.

♦ CNJ has access to Freecure passive which 15% of the time gives the CNJ a free Cure II after casting the normal Cure.

♦ CNJ has access to Overcure passive to give 15% chance for a guaranteed critical Cure III every time Cure II is cast.

♦ CNJ's passives are increasing her Mind attribute, directly helping her to heals even better.

 

But really, what I truly see as a noticeably difference between CNJ and ACN as a dedicated healer is the ACN's Mana utility. The Energy Drain-Aetherflow-Energy Drain is extremely useful to recover ACN's juice, and Aetherflow only has 1 minute cooldown compared to the CNJ's Shroud of Saints which is at 2 minutes cooldown and restores the mana over time, not instantly (but it also reduces enmity so... yeah, it's very useful!)

[Salty Lake]

I'm rolling as a 34 WHM right now. (LOOK I got distracted with crafting for the past week) Annd yeah, I'm by no means an expert. But essentially what Bea said! Arcanist has generally 'one' heal.

 

Only 34? I feel like a slacker at 22 arcanist. But I've also been bringing up gladiator. I am camping so I haven't played in a few days, but I think my glad is 21. I still learning, but I like to solo as arcanist due to having my own pet tank and party as glad so I can get in a duty finder party quickly. But when I have time to wait a half hour to queue as an arcanist, I like being able to step up as healer when the conjurer rage quits. I only get out topaz carby when the tank seems inexperienced and unwilling to listen to the other players' advice on how to keep hate.

 

From a new tanks perspective, I have a hard time keeping hate off the conjurer when she/he spams medica when I am the only one taking damage. Medica is great, but shouldn't be spammed when it isn't needed, in my experience.

 

But I have the most trouble keeping hate off archers who don't attack the mobs in the order I have marked.

 

This may all change when I get higher up!

 

Question: is there any reason to play as your class instead of job after 30?

[Falkner]

From a new tanks perspective, I have a hard time keeping hate off the conjurer when she/he spams medica when I am the only one taking damage. Medica is great, but shouldn't be spammed when it isn't needed, in my experience.

 

You had a bad CNJ. That is all.

[Raccoon]

I only played ACN to 10 for my THM, so I don't have much of an opinion on this, but you do realize that ACN is relatively new. If they find that ACN is out-classing CNJ in what is considered to be the latter's forte, they may nerf it or change the mechanics of it once the server woes are out of the way. The bazillions of people playing ACN at the moment are probably giving them plenty of data to determine it too.

[Salty Lake]

From a new tanks perspective, I have a hard time keeping hate off the conjurer when she/he spams medica when I am the only one taking damage. Medica is great, but shouldn't be spammed when it isn't needed, in my experience.

 

You had a bad CNJ. That is all.

 

I have had more than one spam medica, unfortunately.

[Orlog]

From a new tanks perspective, I have a hard time keeping hate off the conjurer when she/he spams medica when I am the only one taking damage. Medica is great, but shouldn't be spammed when it isn't needed, in my experience.

 

You had a bad CNJ. That is all.

 

I have had more than one spam medica, unfortunately.

 

I've seen this happen a lot more than once and have facepalmed even as a fellow healer. Medica should only be used in certain situations, not as the main way of healing. It's terrible for the tank and will likely get you killed more than anything else.

 

 

Question: is there any reason to play as your class instead of job after 30?

 

Honestly, no. Unless there's a cross class ability that you REALLY need while soloing, there's reason to limit yourself on utilities that are always going to be better than cross classing for the more important things like dungeons, raids, etc.

[LeCard]

 

 

But really, what I truly see as a noticeably difference between CNJ and ACN as a dedicated healer is the ACN's Mana utility. The Energy Drain-Aetherflow-Energy Drain is extremely useful to recover ACN's juice, and Aetherflow only has 1 minute cooldown compared to the CNJ's Shroud of Saints which is at 2 minutes cooldown and restores the mana over time, not instantly (but it also reduces enmity so... yeah, it's very useful!)

Another note, once ACN gets Aetherflow 2 you can activeate Aetherflow, use energy drain (aetherflow drops to Aether 1) and if you need to you can hit energy drain again before aetherflow reaches its cool down.

[LiadansWhisper]

(maybe I just get stuck with crap tanks alot, but that has been my experience with having a CNJ in the party)

 

To throw in my two gil, it's usually the Conjurer's fault. I made this mistake for the first few dungeons as well. The thing is, Cure costs very little mana and generates a -high- amount of hate. So people tend to get bored and spam it as insurence, or start casting it -as- the tank is running in. 

 

Essentially, I've managed to avoid the 'let's kill the healer' motto from mobs now because I use my heals much more sparingly, waiting until he's actually low enough for me to do something about it. But speaking from a healer's perspective, I agree with Kismet on the fact that I prefer it if people stick to their roles. I do the healing, tank does the tanking, everyone else kills things. No Topaz carbuncles in sight! But of course if they choose to break the meta, that just makes my job harder, which keeps me awake. SO that's a plus!

 

That's...really not true.  It really is the tank and/or DPS's fault, not the Conjurer's.  Cure generates a fairly small amount of threat, and only becomes an issue if the tank is standing in avoidable damage (thus making you have to heal him more) or if DPS are tanking (causing you to, again, have to heal more).

 

If you're talking about Medica, that's a different animal.  Cure and Cure II only appear to generate threat/hate for their effective healing (that is, healing that actually fills healthbars, not overhealing).  Medica, on the other hand, appears to simply add up all of the healing that went out (effective healing and overhealing both get counted) and use that to determine hate/threat.  As a result, Medica will rip threat off a tank faster than anything I've seen.  My Glad tank friend and I joke that they should give it to Glads and MRDs because it builds threat better than Flash.  :-P

[Falkner]

I have had more than one spam medica, unfortunately.

 

I feel for you, friend, I do. Like the rest of us here, I too know how it feels to have a party member with questionable playstyle.

 

Well since you're a tank, if you're still doing dungeons up to Sunken Temple, let us group up together sometimes! I'm in dire need of friendly tanks I could rely on! :blush:

I'll also show you how a proper CNJ acts, no worries :thumbsup:

[Salty Lake]

Would love to! I get back from camping tomorrow afternoon. I am still learning but like grouping with nice folks who give me friendly feedback.

[XelosOne]

I play both classes and I think it's good to point out that while it's absolutely a benefit to have Carby (who I've loved since XI... sigh) it's also a great benefit to have Cleric's Stance and Fluid Aura. 

 

Even though EMERALD Carby takes care of the issue of the healer taking hate from the tank (unless the tank & healer are both struggling) that 6 seconds of bind is admittedly a benefit, plus your CNJ may have cross-class THM spells ready to go from version one (or whatever) as well. 

 

I know we're talking beyond level 15 on much of this but still pretty early on. They both have something to offer. Every class does when played well and when parties communicate and have patience with nervous newbies with the jitters. :thumbsup:

[Nox]

♦ Both CNJ and ACN can resurrects allies in combat.

♦ Both have access to knockback if the situation demands it.

♦ Both have access to Heavy debuff to slows down mobs.

♦ CNJ has an enhanced Protect buff that not only raises Defense of the party but also the Magic Defense.

♦ CNJ has early access to Esuna to dispel debuffs, something that only a Scholar could receive in level 40.

♦ CNJ also has access to Repose to put enemy to sleep, a very vital (30sec+15sec) crowd control in dungeons.

♦ CNJ has Medica and Cure III as emergency area heals, and

♦ CNJ has two types of single target healing to suit the situation, the normal Cure (300 potency) and the higher-heals-higher-manacost Cure II with 500 healing potency; Good to quickly fills the massive HP of Marauders and Warriors or to fully heals a Paladin from even half of his HP.

♦ CNJ has access to Freecure passive which 15% of the time gives the CNJ a free Cure II after casting the normal Cure.

♦ CNJ has access to Overcure passive to give 15% chance for a guaranteed critical Cure III every time Cure II is cast.

♦ CNJ's passives are increasing her Mind attribute, directly helping her to heals even better.

 

But really, what I truly see as a noticeably difference between CNJ and ACN as a dedicated healer is the ACN's Mana utility. The Energy Drain-Aetherflow-Energy Drain is extremely useful to recover ACN's juice, and Aetherflow only has 1 minute cooldown compared to the CNJ's Shroud of Saints which is at 2 minutes cooldown and restores the mana over time, not instantly (but it also reduces enmity so... yeah, it's very useful!)

 

I was going to say exactly this. You really start feeling how much you need a Conjurer/WHM when you get to Brayflox, in my experience. The poison stacks on that last boss hurt like a mofo and all a Sch/Acn can do is try to heal through it. 

 

At low levels, there's really no reason to have a conj, unless you're me and you hate hate hate Carbuncles. That's just my two cents.

[Lament]

ACN is a very versatile class early on. It loses much of its versatility later on (especially when you get your job).

 

CNJ can heal for more than ACN can. In a bad group, this can be the difference between success and a wipe.

 

Without parroting what's already been said, the CNJ tree also gets access to several useful skills, in particular Stoneskin. Unlike Adloquium, it lasts for 30 minutes, so it's a good buff to throw up before you run off and it can -really- save your casters' lives later on when you're getting hit for all of your HP if you can't dodge. It is a cross-class skill, though, so you can grab it and use it as another class. Mainly, Adloquium is useful while you're getting hit constantly while Stoneskin is useful as a failsafe for the party members who really shouldn't be getting hit constantly.

 

Now that my WHM has finally reached 50, I can name two other really good aspects of CNJ/WHM: An instant 100% heal - which has a very long cooldown, but can save your tank from death immediately, and holy crackers, Regen (WHM, not CNJ, skill). I don't even bother healing anyone other than the tank unless they're at imminent risk of dying anymore thanks to that. Someone gets hit, toss Regen (which is instant cast and so you can move while doing it) and move on. Regen gives me enough leeway to keep Stoneskin almost constantly up on everyone except the tanks.

 

But ultimately, having both a WHM and a SCH is where it's at. It becomes much easier to focus on keeping people -and- yourself alive when you can afford to move because you know the fairy will throw a heal. I may be doing it wrong, but I find myself mostly keeping Stoneskin and Regen up while the SCH takes care of most of the emergency heals. And this generally means no deaths, even with lag.

[KitKat]

It's the opposite. WHMs are better at emergency heals. SCHs are better at mitigation. This becomes painfully obvious in Titan HM where the WHMs aoe healing (and the SCH's tank shields too) really shines. 

 

Keeping Stoneskin and Regen up is a good thing, though Regen really should only be on the tank and tossed out as you mentioned when another party member took damage but won't be taking more in the near future.

[Lament]

It's the opposite. WHMs are better at emergency heals. SCHs are better at mitigation. This becomes painfully obvious in Titan HM where the WHMs aoe healing (and the SCH's tank shields too) really shines. 

 

Keeping Stoneskin and Regen up is a good thing, though Regen really should only be on the tank and tossed out as you mentioned when another party member took damage but won't be taking more in the near future.

 

Primals are heavily scripted battles. It's basically a 'do this and win' sort of scenario, with wrenches thrown in in the form of people not reacting fast enough, or not knowing the mechanics. In a case like that you really can't deviate much in terms of strategy. For dungeons though, at least up until Praetorium, Regen+Stoneskin upkeep has been king, since anyone who isn't the tank really shouldn't be getting hit all that often.

 

Which doesn't mean WHM isn't still better at massive AoE heals, but honestly, I've yet to run into a single dungeon situation (short of a bad PuG) that warranted firing off AoE heals often enough for it to matter.

[LiadansWhisper]

It's the opposite. WHMs are better at emergency heals. SCHs are better at mitigation. This becomes painfully obvious in Titan HM where the WHMs aoe healing (and the SCH's tank shields too) really shines. 

 

Keeping Stoneskin and Regen up is a good thing, though Regen really should only be on the tank and tossed out as you mentioned when another party member took damage but won't be taking more in the near future.

 

Primals are heavily scripted battles. It's basically a 'do this and win' sort of scenario, with wrenches thrown in in the form of people not reacting fast enough, or not knowing the mechanics. In a case like that you really can't deviate much in terms of strategy. For dungeons though, at least up until Praetorium, Regen+Stoneskin upkeep has been king, since anyone who isn't the tank really shouldn't be getting hit all that often.

 

Which doesn't mean WHM isn't still better at massive AoE heals, but honestly, I've yet to run into a single dungeon situation (short of a bad PuG) that warranted firing off AoE heals often enough for it to matter.

 

While that is true, it falls apart once you hit raid content.

 

That said, WHM and SCH very much compliment each other and are designed to work together.  I honestly encourage anyone truly interested in healing to level both and explore them yourself.

[Lament]

Like I said, that's up until Praetorium, which is really nowhere near Coil in terms of... anything. Obviously different situations call for different strategies. You're not going to be keeping Stoneskin up if it's getting stripped every 20 seconds and people need healing. If all you do is toss Regen+Stoneskin and don't adapt, you're just as bad a healer as the ones who Medica spam.

[LiadansWhisper]

Like I said, that's up until Praetorium, which is really nowhere near Coil in terms of... anything. Obviously different situations call for different strategies.

 

I actually found most content far easier to heal as a SCH than I did as a WHM.  Mainly because of the extra backup of the fairy, and bubbles.

[Lament]

I haven't actually tried SCH myself! But I didn't have any problems in dungeons, at least (just did WP, so only AK is still a mystery as far as dungeons). The main issue is MP, even with SoS, so far.

[LiadansWhisper]

I haven't actually tried SCH myself! But I didn't have any problems in dungeons, at least (just did WP, so only AK is still a mystery as far as dungeons). The main issue is MP, even with SoS, so far.

 

Ya...SCH doesn't have mana issues.  Ever.  

[LeCard]

I haven't actually tried SCH myself! But I didn't have any problems in dungeons, at least (just did WP, so only AK is still a mystery as far as dungeons). The main issue is MP, even with SoS, so far.

 

Ya...SCH doesn't have mana issues.  Ever.  

A WHM's best friend is a Bard. Mages song is a Twelve sent, and a SCH with mage song is invinceable. (well mostly)

[KitKat]

With more gear, WHMs tend to rely less and less on Mage's Ballad. I don't even run out of mana on Titan HM these days.

[LiadansWhisper]

With more gear, WHMs tend to rely less and less on Mage's Ballad. I don't even run out of mana on Titan HM these days.

 

Hard OOM in Coils.   I'd never actually run OOM in Titan that I can recall.