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[Gabineaux]

I can see the name, replied to, in character.. :tonberry:

 

Whoops sorry, If it counts that's just the person I was talking to, and I cleared it with her before I posted it, but I thought I removed her name anyway (Damn you textpad find and replace). The names mentioned besides Kayah and I weren't actually there.

 

Again I honestly just thought it was a cool situation and wanted to give the summary. I realize that most of what I was complaining about could have been avoided if I had thought through things more.

 

I understand where you're coming from and what you're saying. But being arrested isn't permanent, though. You can always have bail posted, or escape, or bribe the guards even. My character faces lawpeople every other day. I know your character isn't a full time criminal, being a Sultansworn. But now you know the struggles us villain RPers go through every day.

[Roen]

Oh, since I am in that log, I don't care if my name appeared in it or not.  It was just a log of the conversation my character and Natalie had, recounting the events.

 

And as already said, it is just to summarize for those interested on what happened IC.  No blame tossed around or anything!  I know my character certainly was curious to the details of what happened.  And she omitted my name as a courtesy, I really wouldn't have minded either way, and told her so before it was even posted. 

[Almil]

Here is a screenshot of the scene by the way, in the midst of the confrontation.

 

(It was so cool! Click here for big)

I just need to say squeeeeeeee! You're holding hands! It's freaking cute, no matter what else is happening! Wish I managed to take screenshots like this.

 

 

Then to the whole thread! (I can't believe it's so many pages in such short time!)

I found the thread like houuurs ago (6hours or so??) but I was busy in-game and just left it open in my browser so I can read it as soon as I logout from game. I've been up way too long and I'm super tired but I still tried reading all and gosh I'm sorry I'm already blabbering......

 

I , like some others, also think that BOTH parties could have handle the original situation better, but I'm glad you got it worked out anyways. I hope the person who walked away from RP had some time to think about all this too (dunno if he/she is in RPC). Everyone makes mistakes some point and everyone should try learn from them.

 

I usually try to be very careful when interfering to anyone elses RP, especially if I don't know them well IC or OOC. But I'm often just very bored and get very curious when I spot something possibly interesting happening. If I feel it's wrong location or wrong people for my character to approach ICly, I might simply send private message and ask "Mind if I listen in OOC? seems interesting and I'm bored ^^" or similar.

 

Or, sometimes, like earlier tonight/morning, I spotted couple RPers (*waves in case they read*) near the place where Almil often goes sit by herself if I don't have much else to do or possibly waiting someone to find me there IC. Now, the two RPers were standing little too away from the "road" for me to just casually walk past them and try catch their attention with something, and Almil rarely/never really just walks to the strangers. So after staring at them for a moment out of /s reach I finally walked little around them and naturally stopped to the spot that the /s and /em reached.

When I do this, I try make some emotes to give the other RPers to notice atleast OOCly that I am around and listening. They then have change to; possibly notice me IC also, or just let me listen in, or even ask me to kindly butt off with /tell or ((OOC)) , or take their RP to private chat if it's indeed private and me or my character shouldn't hear it.  

In the case of tonight, they continued their RP in public channel without noting me IC, and I was fine with it, I still stayed in range though and did couple of my own emotes of Almil at times perking her ears to what they said, and even turned her gaze towards them couple time. But otherwise Almil seemed happy to be by her own.

 

I don't -always- need to be included when I find random RP. Sometimes I'm happy just to observe, and if I get too bored I'll leave! But if I'm emoting, it means I'm IC (and ready to RP!), so there is possibility that my character will hear you IC too. If you have issue with it, please tell it to me IC or OOC, or take the RP to private chat.

 

Then, another example, also from this night/morning!

I got couple LS friend to RP with me, none of our characters had never met IC before, and it was nice bit of random RP. But when all our characters decided to walk back to Gridania together, I saw opportunity to add little something to my own storyline. We were all in party together, so I asked in party chat if they were up for some added drama and explained very briefly what it would possibly include, also making sure they'd have enough time for it so the RP wouldn't get hanging in the air until all of us had time to continue it. They agreed to my little drama and I think it added little something to all our characters, and might be interesting to RP with them both again later, when they'd probably be curious what happened to my character. I was positively surprised how the RP continued forward from my little 'exit' (Almil collapsed and I was kinda unconscious rest of the RP). All of the THREE other characters dealing with Almil surprised me with how they met each other. And of course I was touched how they treated poor unconscious Almil situation. Almost made me feel bad that I was seeing it only with OOC eyes

 

 

OK, I am really tired so once again I apologize if this was all just empty blabber or difficult to read.... english isn't my first language and I'm too tired to read what I wrote to see if I should fix stuff I mostly just wanted to comment on that screenshot *nodnod*

 

 

EDIT: I just needed to add that I hate god-moding, if I do it, feel free to smack me in /tell , I'll never do it on purpose though! I often take extra care to emote in way that gives the other character chance to dodge my moves etc. I sometimes emote my intentions in 2-3 emotes, waiting in between for the other one to possibly move or say something. I do this even if I know almost 100% sure that they'd allow it.

 

AND I also want whoever plans to RP with me to know that I always want to be asked if you plan to injure my characters in any way that would give permanent or long lasting handicap. Or if you want to kidnap my character or put her in jail for days, you need to be prepared to RP with me alot during those days if I can't do it with other characters, I play this game 85% only to RP, so you can't take that away from me for DAYS, I will not allow it without warning ;_;

So please let me know OOC if you have any bigger plans that would affect my character.

(injury, death, kidnapped/locked, cursed, magically healed (Almil dislikes it IC, and I don't always want to recover from everything in seconds), scams taking advantage of her memory loss, etc)

I would probably allow most of those in some degree (except death!), but please ask first ^^

[ArmachiA]

This whole thing can be a lesson in something I find so, so important.

 

Always give the player an out.

 

Always.

 

If you like surprise RP? Cool. Go be surprising. Leave the player your surprising an out.

 

Like to plan it? Cool. Plan a few outs.

 

No matter what you do in RP, no matter the scenario, you always - ALWAYS - need to give everyone else around you an out so they can take it if they want to. Whether that means deciding on a few outs before hand or coming up with an out on the fly while discussing the scene OOC.

 

For anything. Fighting, Conflict, Romance, Drama, even a humorous scene.

 

"I want to do it this way and this is the only way it will be done" Is completely unacceptable. If you cannot compromise, you should not RP.

 

Always give the player an out.

[Agarthane]

What needs to be kept in mind is that the art of role-playing is actually the art of the cooperative story.

 

It's more than simply wandering around, doing anything you feel your character would normally do. It's about story telling, and that means on a very basic level being at least somewhat mindful of not screwing up someone elses. 

 

This is also an example of why extra care should be taken if you are role-playing a character who claims a position of real authority. It's so easy to abuse this, intentionally or not, since you can easily put another player in the awkward situation of being forced to do something they might not want to do, or break character.

 

And even if RP is public, all sides should be open to the idea of PM communication if it helps integrate all parties more effectively into the story.

[Musemi]

I kind of have a problem with anyone who appoints themselves lawman and expects it to be publicly accepted. Basically, you are appointing yourself GM over someone else's character(s) without those players prior consent. You are not GM over Balmung, or Gilgamesh, and should not assume such authority.

 

Just because someone is rping in public, does not give you the right to take control of the scene. YOU ARE ENTERING THEIR STORY, they are not entering yours. There is no such thing as a 'global' Eorzean story, in which your character's authority is absolute. There would simply be too many conflicting inconsistencies amongst all the micro-canons that exist.

 

Instead, dial back your character and concede control of the scene to the players whose scene you are joining. You are a player in their scenario, not a GM. That means you can suggest and perform actions, but cannot directly control the environment, or what happens to their characters. The decision of what happens to them in relation to your actions rests solely on them. Remember, you chose to enter their story, not the other way around.

 

OOCly of course, you may ask if you can GM the scene and assume control, but they as players still have a right to opt out if you prove to be a poor GM (as in not leaving any outs, as someone else alluded to).

 

This is not tabletop rp, where the law of dice decides whether Nat's charcter gets to escape or not,. Without this universal, agreed upon system, you must allow the authors decide the outcome of their characters fates, unless otherwise explicitly agreed upon beforehand. To automatically assume control of the scene makes you an rp bully.

[111]

Hey I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for keeping this civil, and rather general. I actually linked the other person to this thread, because I thought it was unfair for them to be in the dark (They aren't a member though I think). While they took issue at one or two things, we were able to discuss what had happened the night before.

 

I was going of worried about posting this thread, because discussions like these tend to get quite heated very quickly, so I'm really glad we were able to have a polite discussion about this,

[Naunet]

I don't think roleplaying as law enforcement equates to "GMing" a scene at all... There are a million different ways an attempted arrest can go south.

[Steel Wolf]

There's six pages on this bad boy, and it's busy at work so I'll have to read them again at a later time.  That all said, if somebody else has said what I am, then my apologies.

 

My opinion, that was was an absolutely awful situation, and your handwavium is more than warranted considering the interloping character interfered in an established plotline without consulting you OOC of their intentions.  A WHOLE lot of needless static could have been avoided if said character had taken the time to /tell you "Hey, my character is a duty-bound Flame and he's eavesdropping.  He's going to arrest you unless you're not looking for that to happen."

 

I'm sorry you had such a trying experience with said player--and that late at night to boot, which always makes things more terrible I've found.  All things considered, I believe you handled the matter in the best way possible.

[111]

I don't think roleplaying as law enforcement equates to "GMing" a scene at all... There are a million different ways an attempted arrest can go south.

 

The issue I have, and I have discussed this with the person. If someone comes up and tries to arrest you in public, and you want to respect the Authority they are RPing, it limits you to a very few ways of dealing with it.

 

1) Ignoring them IC, which is bad RP imo, and sets a bad precedent. It gets especially bad looking if the person starts drawing their weapon and attempting to subdue you. Kind of makes you look like an ass if you just keep talking while the other person keeps emoting you.

 

2) Fighting them, which *will* most likely make your character an outlaw now, if they weren't already.

 

3) Running away, which again, makes your character look bad, and will probably make them an outlaw.

 

4) Putting up with it, and going to jail.

 

Essentially it puts you in the situation of either doing what they want (go to jail) or making you a fugitive (even if you can clear your name later), or you don't respect other player's RPing. Unlike most walk up RP situations, it's not something you can just walk away from, especially if people are watching.

[Naunet]

What's wrong with making your character a fugitive (even if temporarily)? I really don't see the issue with that at all.

[111]

What's wrong with making your character a fugitive (even if temporarily)? I really don't see the issue with that at all.

 

Nothing, but in my opinion it's not the other players decision to make.

[Musemi]

I don't think roleplaying as law enforcement equates to "GMing" a scene at all... There are a million different ways an attempted arrest can go south.

 

I agree it doesn't HAVE to. The OP Nat has alluded to her own char initially trying to enforce her authority over someone (and getting mad when it didn't go as planned), and subsequently learning from it to ask OOCly at what level the person might want law enforcement involved.

 

But the example last night was clearly a case of someone taking over a scene and trying to GM it in a singular direction. Something I've noticed with a lot of lawmen types. I am not obligated to recognize one's authority as lawmen, because in my storyline, my 'criminal' might actually be working undercover, a fact that all local lawmen know, and anyone who outed me would be fired.

 

Just one example of how failure to communicate OOC can backfire or lead to a heated dispute. Hey, if that means I should just rp my stuff in party chat, then I'm fine with that.

[Naunet]

What's wrong with making your character a fugitive (even if temporarily)? I really don't see the issue with that at all.

 

Nothing, but in my opinion it's not the other players decision to make.

 

I guess, but what else can one expect when discussing crimes in public? I dunno, I'm of the opinion that people should be more willing to "go with the flow" in roleplay. Yea, you have the final say on what happens to your character, but it's a bit silly to get upset when someone ICly calls out people for discussing crimes in public. I mean, that's just not a wise thing to do!

 

But the example last night was clearly a case of someone taking over a scene and trying to GM it in a singular direction. 

 

Except everyone involved (well, except maybe the lawman/woman - I'm unsure if they've posted in this thread) was apparently happy with the outcome of the scene? So I'm really not sure what the issue is here.

[111]

 

I guess, but what else can one expect when discussing crimes in public? I dunno, I'm of the opinion that people should be more willing to "go with the flow" in roleplay. Yea, you have the final say on what happens to your character, but it's a bit silly to get upset when someone ICly calls out people for discussing crimes in public. I mean, that's just not a wise thing to do!

 

 

 

I want to reiterate, because for some reason people keep misunderstanding. The only reason we were talking about criminal stuff is because my character is a Sultansworn and C'kayah was turning himself in to her. That's the reason... and the whole thing turned violent because the other flame tried to subdue C'kayah violently, and my character stopped her.

 

Aside from that in a general sense... I agree, but as Musemi said, there could be much more going on than you realize from your eavesdropping. On the one hand misunderstandings can make for good RP, but they can also derail stories. I am of the opinion that unless you are super sure about what is going on, you should /tell the person first.

[Agarthane]

What's wrong with making your character a fugitive (even if temporarily)? I really don't see the issue with that at all.

 

Nothing, but in my opinion it's not the other players decision to make.

 

I guess, but what else can one expect when discussing crimes in public? I dunno, I'm of the opinion that people should be more willing to "go with the flow" in roleplay. Yea, you have the final say on what happens to your character, but it's a bit silly to get upset when someone ICly calls out people for discussing crimes in public. I mean, that's just not a wise thing to do!

 

But the example last night was clearly a case of someone taking over a scene and trying to GM it in a singular direction. 

 

Except everyone involved (well, except maybe the lawman/woman - I'm unsure if they've posted in this thread) was apparently happy with the outcome of the scene? So I'm really not sure what the issue is here.

 

 

I would implore you to consider what playing a member of law enforcement really means and why it should be handled with care.

 

When you Role play, for example, a Flames officer, you are not simply playing that one individual. You are playing The Flames. 

 

When you make a threat it comes with the full martial and bureaucratic might of the entire law enforcement machine. You carry in your hand the ability to met out consequences, small and dire, that other players MUST respect or be forced to break character.

 

To use a real world example, what happens when a police officer tries to make an arrest and things go awry? What happens if the officer is injured or even killed? Congrats, you now have to deal not with that individual, but with the entire law enforcement apparatus. That one officer is a cog in a machine that no one individual can effectively stand against.

 

Bringing this back to FF14, even in the realm of high fantasy, the above example still stands. Even if the officer in question was *wrong*, even if they were actively evil and corrupt, you CANNOT simply get away with crossing them. That's why, when misused, playing an officer can rise to the level of manipulating a scene. Almost no other type of character can simply walk in and create real consequences for all involved.

 

As for being a fugitive, if that's the logical path for a particular story to take, fine. It's not something I'd want  arbitrarily imposed upon my character by someone else.

[Ildur]

Players do not have any way to enforce their made up authority into others. The only authority a law enforcer player character can have is that given to them by those involved in the scene. If no one agrees OOCly to recognize him as a law enforcer, then he effectively is not an authority as far as those people are concerned. Which means there cannot be any 'real' consequences unless the players agree to it.

 

As usual, the key is to communicate OOCly anything that might cause lasting consequences on other people's characters.

[ArmachiA]

Also, not for nothing, but I know a lot of criminal stuff goes on in public in real life. Like, a lot. In a restaurant, in a park, in a museum. Usually, unlike roleplay, voices don't carry that far and doing it in public is actually safer. Saying "You did it in public, you deserve it" is completely unrealistic.

 

source: I grew up in a bad neighborhood you have no idea.

[LiadansWhisper]

I had this long post written out, but I scrapped it because it seemed pretentious.

 

Roleplay is about mutual cooperation.  You tell a story with others, not against them.  If everyone isn't happy, it's not a very good story.  People need to remember that you can't win at Role-play.  No, seriously, you can't.  If you are trying to "win" at role-play, you're doin' it wrong, son.

 

If you're ever uncomfortable with a situation, speak up.  And if the other guy gets butthurt because, omg, you won't let them do whatever they want (without any input on your part), then let them get butthurt.

 

And if they walk away in a snit because you didn't do what they wanted you to do, let them walk away.

 

Also, offing someone's character without talking to the player first?  Um...what?  Who the hell even does that?  Seriously, uncool.

[ArmachiA]

^ Fun story. In FFXI we had two people in our shell play our main antagonists, with one who flip floped sides a lot. Anyway, one of the main antagonists was kind of crazy so the other had to reel her in and they were doing a scene in Jueno with a member who was known for being a bit of a Metagamer, but he never did anything too bad and we mostly laughed it off.

 

Till we all overheard in the LS, "What the hell, dude?"

 

Turned out, the Metagamer found the two antagonists and cut off the sane one's head without asking. He just did it! Said he was the hero and killed the villain and now that player had to reroll.

 

We were DUMBFOUNDED.

 

So yeah, it does happen.

[Steel Wolf]

I had this long post written out, but I scrapped it because it seemed pretentious.

 

Roleplay is about mutual cooperation.  You tell a story with others, not against them.  If everyone isn't happy, it's not a very good story.  People need to remember that you can't win at Role-play.  No, seriously, you can't.  If you are trying to "win" at role-play, you're doin' it wrong, son.

 

If you're ever uncomfortable with a situation, speak up.  And if the other guy gets butthurt because, omg, you won't let them do whatever they want (without any input on your part), then let them get butthurt.

 

And if they walk away in a snit because you didn't do what they wanted you to do, let them walk away.

 

Also, offing someone's character without talking to the player first?  Um...what?  Who the hell even does that?  Seriously, uncool.

THIS

 

Every day of the YEAR. 

 

I wish to hug your face for this post.  I...er...if you'll let me, anyway.  <33

[C'kayah Polaali]

Also, offing someone's character without talking to the player first?  Um...what?  Who the hell even does that?  Seriously, uncool.

This didn't happen. I offed C'kayah myself in response to the attacks by the Flames. This thread is about something else entirely.

 

Carry on.

[Caelia]

This might be in bad form, but I'm going to apply forum RP rules to MMO RP rules and see what happens.  I'm new to MMO RP so if these are the same, my apologies for being redundant.

 

In every forum RP I've ever come across, there are two big rules that NO ONE should ever break and those are: powerplay (using OOC knowledge ICly without establishing how your character got that information) and godmodding.  Godmodding means doing anything at all to a character (a guaranteed successful action) without A) leaving them a way to get out of it or B) checking with them first.

 

Doing part A means that your character can attempt to punch the other character.  It is the other character's choice as to whether it connects and hurts them or not.  Doing part B means the above has been choreographed and the parties involved know what's coming and have compromised to make it work the best for both.  Part A does not need OOC communication because the subtext of the action is, "Can my character do this?".  By dodging or accepting the punch, the other player is adding the subtext of, "No" or "Yes."

 

I'm assuming this rule is a general rule for all RPing.

 

That being said, I think it's really poor manners not to at least ask OOCly if a walk in is possible/acceptable in this situation.  There are some scenes I've seen/read where it seems like it would be in really bad form to just walk up and start doing things with the players (notice I said with, not to).  Not just because it would derail things but because it's clear that whatever I do would fail to help the people accomplish their goals or would make their entire scene be about me instead of them.

 

I've never yet had a person jump into an RP scene I'm part of without asking first and checking with me in a tell.  Usually, I say, "Yes, jump in!  Jump in!" or I'll say, "Yes, I would love to have you join.  Let me just get this conversation to a point where you can slide in easily without derailing anything and we'll play!"  It sounds like this person did neither of those things and seemed to disregard the idea of "Am I adding myself to this scene for flavor or am I making this scene all about me?"

 

...I got lost in what I was trying to say but the point is, I think this person was a bit out of line and needs to learn when too much is too far in a walk-up rp.

[Rook]

 

I would implore you to consider what playing a member of law enforcement really means and why it should be handled with care.

 

When you Role play, for example, a Flames officer, you are not simply playing that one individual. You are playing The Flames. 

 

When you make a threat it comes with the full martial and bureaucratic might of the entire law enforcement machine. You carry in your hand the ability to met out consequences, small and dire, that other players MUST respect or be forced to break character.

 

To use a real world example, what happens when a police officer tries to make an arrest and things go awry? What happens if the officer is injured or even killed? Congrats, you now have to deal not with that individual, but with the entire law enforcement apparatus. That one officer is a cog in a machine that no one individual can effectively stand against.

 

Bringing this back to FF14, even in the realm of high fantasy, the above example still stands. Even if the officer in question was *wrong*, even if they were actively evil and corrupt, you CANNOT simply get away with crossing them. That's why, when misused, playing an officer can rise to the level of manipulating a scene. Almost no other type of character can simply walk in and create real consequences for all involved.

 

As for being a fugitive, if that's the logical path for a particular story to take, fine. It's not something I'd want  arbitrarily imposed upon my character by someone else.

 

 

It's important to note that this is a false analogy. Contrary to popular belief, the Immortal Flames are not a law enforcement branch. They're Ul'dah's military, and the Brass Blades are law enforcement. In your example, it would be as if an off duty US Army officer showed up and tried to act in the place of the police, rather than calling the police to deal with it. Yes, harming the officer would cause a good bit of trouble in its own right, but you're under no obligation to regard an Army officer as you would a police officer. And he'd have no right to arrest you. The Army fights our enemies, whereas the police protect and serve the people.

 

Just the same, the Immortal Flames don't patrol the city and make arrests. They fight the enemies of Ul'dah without. The Brass Blades take care of Ul'dah itself, policing its streets and Thanalan's roads (of course, they're often corrupt, but so are the police, on occasion). The Sultansworn are way off in Secret Service land, with authority that trumps both, but only when specifically serving the Sultanate.

 

Of course, the root of the problem here doesn't have too much to do with all this, but it's worth clarifying. The problem might not have existed at all if the Flames roleplayer was aware of this. Then again, maybe they were, and their character is just shady and corrupt, trying to take advantage of their position. There are certainly examples of military sorts doing that in real life.

 

Either way, there's plenty more at work here that others are addressing nicely.

[Naunet]

As for being a fugitive, if that's the logical path for a particular story to take, fine. It's not something I'd want  arbitrarily imposed upon my character by someone else.

 

I'm not sure one would call it arbitrary if the story went down a path of "law person overheard what was construed as criminal conspiracy and decided to take action". That's just reasonable. Arbitrary would be more "I was just standing here and some Blade/Flame/whatever (ooc: yes, I know the difference - that the person in question might not have is another topic entirely) came up and randomly arrested me!"