The effects of Tempering

[111]

My character was recently tempered (last night), and I'm trying to get some information on the changes that occur. Hopefully people here have some knowledge on the subject.

 

-Mentally: How strong is the devotion of a tempered, does it vary between primal?

 

-Magically: Every tempered tribe with a primal seems to gain strength from that primal's element in a way non-tempered tribes don't. For example, unlike all other sylphs and lizardmen, the brotherhood of ash and little solace do not seem to have lightining/fire control. Is that elemental proficiency a boon of the primal? Or is it just a coincidence.

 

-Communication: Tempered are often spoken of as hearing the will of the one that tempered them, can primals and tempered communicate through some special means?

 

Any other information or lore would be helpful thanks.

[Whittledown]

Wow! Tempering is a pretty huge deal, bold of you to take that on to your character!

 

From what I've gathered in game, Tempering destroys or subverts all or at least a goodly portion of the victims will and fills in the gap with the will of the Primal. An intense reverence for said Primal follows and all victims of tempering seen in game know full well that they now serve whatever Primal made claim. The devotion appears to be absolute, regardless of who does the tempering.

 

I think that a form of direct control from Primal to servant makes sense, whether through direct mental communication or through a more subtle pressure on the victims psyche to do certain things.

 

I think that tempering could very well give the servant a measure of the Primals power. It makes sense that a Primal would want their servants to be strong and also to express the Primal's power through their actions and abilities.

[111]

 

From what I've gathered in game, Tempering destroys or subverts all or at least a goodly portion of the victims will and fills in the gap with the will of the Primal. An intense reverence for said Primal follows and all victims of tempering seen in game know full well that they now serve whatever Primal made claim. The devotion appears to be absolute, regardless of who does the tempering.

 

 

It's slightly complicated because the Primal was devoted to my character, and my character was devoted to the primal before it happened. So as long as they keep up that relationship, I'm not overly concerned about the mental stuff at this very moment. Both of them would have already done literally anything for the other, however if that relationship changes, then the mental stuff will naturally come up.

[Aysun]

That is... very bold.

 

I'm not sure how a primal could be devoted to your character (??), but now that they're tempered they're certainly devoted to the primal. Their life revolves around finding ways to summon that primal. Their very purpose is to do that, and get others to as well.

 

Please keep in mind that if people find out (and it is rather obvious when someone is tempered..), execution is the treatment for those who are tempered. For the good of Eorzea.

 

-Mentally: How strong is the devotion of a tempered, does it vary between primal?

Does not seem to vary at all. It is complete commitment and servitude to that primal and summoning them.

 

-Magically: Every tempered tribe with a primal seems to gain strength from that primal's element in a way non-tempered tribes don't. For example, unlike all other sylphs and lizardmen, the brotherhood of ash and little solace do not seem to have lightining/fire control. Is that elemental proficiency a boon of the primal? Or is it just a coincidence.

The Brotherhood of Ash and the sylphs of Little Solace are not tempered, so that is why you see the discrepancy.

 

-Communication: Tempered are often spoken of as hearing the will of the one that tempered them, can primals and tempered communicate through some special means?

I don't think it's communication so much as the primal exerting their will on the tempered person. They're not going to have a chat with the primal. They're going to do what it wants, and it wants crystals to be summoned with, and more people to temper, by any means necessary.

 

EDIT: I also notice in your wiki you state that she's hunted primals before. In order to do that without being tempered, one must have the Echo pretty much. And if one has the Echo, they can't be tempered. Confusion!

[111]

That is... very bold.

 

I'm not sure how a primal could be devoted to your character (??), but now that they're tempered they're certainly devoted to the primal. Their life revolves around finding ways to summon that primal. Their very purpose is to do that, and get others to as well.

 

Please keep in mind that if people find out (and it is rather obvious when someone is tempered..), execution is the treatment for those who are tempered. For the good of Eorzea.

 

-Mentally: How strong is the devotion of a tempered, does it vary between primal?

Does not seem to vary at all. It is complete commitment and servitude to that primal and summoning them.

 

-Magically: Every tempered tribe with a primal seems to gain strength from that primal's element in a way non-tempered tribes don't. For example, unlike all other sylphs and lizardmen, the brotherhood of ash and little solace do not seem to have lightining/fire control. Is that elemental proficiency a boon of the primal? Or is it just a coincidence.

The Brotherhood of Ash and the sylphs of Little Solace are not tempered, so that is why you see the discrepancy.

 

-Communication: Tempered are often spoken of as hearing the will of the one that tempered them, can primals and tempered communicate through some special means?

I don't think it's communication so much as the primal exerting their will on the tempered person. They're not going to have a chat with the primal. They're going to do what it wants, and it wants crystals to be summoned with, and more people to temper, by any means necessary.

 

This is not directly true, plenty of primals are shown to not care about tempering large groups of people. In fact Ifrit, and Garuda seem to be the only ones that do. Ramuh and Titan for example, both only seem to care about protecting their groups. It's why a group of people without the Echo could actually kill titan, because he didn't want to temper them.

 

I think it's clear in the lore that every primal is different, and tempers mortals for different reasons and to accomplish different goals. In fact there is fairly strong evidence for the idea that the twelve, as well as Hydalyn are varients of primals, and that the Echo merely represents that you were tempered by Hydalyn before a primal could get to you.

 

Edit: On another note, at the end of the Amal beast tribe quests, several tempered people are shown to be allowed to live out their lives. So while the Scions do immediately kill tempered, that's not a universal punishment. In fact it might be a policy unique to the Scions themselves.

[Kage]

As far as I could tell based only on what I did for MSQ for ARR... tempered are there for the sole purpose of providing the primal with the physical manifest and providing it with the aether it craves.

 

How elder primals act I'm not sure (odin??). They seem to appear physically without any tempered or summoning from prayers.

 

King Moggle Mog as we know him isn't a primal for clarification and the mooglesguard aren't tempered but he's some form of twisted wish fulfillment manifest that craves for aether and sustaining physical form through prayer like the primals do.

 

Honestly, there's probably going to be a bit of handwaving going on. Even with the tempered sylphs and Ramuh, it doesn't mean one of the first reactions wasn't to do something about the tempered ones, such as putting them down. The more neutral aligned tempered sylphs just won't immediately be causing trouble.

 

Edit: But I have read that the idea might be that those with Echo (aka Adventurer in MSQ) is "tempered" by Hydaelyn and the large crystal thing we always see or from the Twelve.

[Dakki]

Bravo on the original concept! I'm intrigued to see whether you go full zealot or some form of spy among the ranks... Though, I doubt sudden, loud outbursts of "HAIL IFRIT! BY FIRE, BE CLEANSED!" would be all that subtle. Maybe if you wear a moustache.

 

Mentally: From what I can gather, the mentality of a tempered is the greatest change they undertake. The mind of the individual seems to warp, suiting the Primal's ideals (ie. Ifrit's immense zealotry, Garuda's thirst for power & dominance, Ramuh and Titan's protectiveness, though the latter two do so in very different ways). This does not mean, in my view, they would be as full on as their primals. I mean, you don't see an Ixal wearing a bra made of feathers being a bit of a dominatrix, do you? So it's more their ideals, I would say.

 

Magically: I figure this comes as part of their fanaticism. ie. Rather than having a gift bestowed upon them, in an attempt to please their primal deity, they will study tirelessly the element of their patron. So, rather than some "divine gift", I would say this, too, is an attempt to be as alike to their primal as possible.

 

Plus, if that's not enough, think of it this way. You have been tempered by, say... Leviathan. Despite having a stupid name now, Mrs Scaleback, it is highly likely you will view the element of water as superior to all others. As such, which magic are you most likely to want to master? Water.

 

Communication: I have no source on this but I would say, yet again, one word: Fanaticism. History has proven this time and time again. Devote yourself to a cause or deity too much and you will start to believe you are their "Hand" in the mortal plane. There may well be some form of mental echo the Primals use to speak to the tempered, but I would bet the tempered are just doing what they think their god would like/they have been commanded. Somebody questions why? "BECAUSE IFRIT."

[Aysun]

This is not directly true, plenty of primals are shown to not care about tempering large groups of people. In fact Ifrit, and Garuda seem to be the only ones that do. Ramuh and Titan for example, both only seem to care about protecting their groups. It's why a group of people without the Echo could actually kill titan, because he didn't want to temper them.

 

I think it's clear in the lore that every primal is different, and tempers mortals for different reasons and to accomplish different goals. In fact there is fairly strong evidence for the idea that the twelve, as well as Hydalyn are varients of primals, and that the Echo merely represents that you were tempered by Hydalyn before a primal could get to you.

 

Edit: On another note, at the end of the Amal beast tribe quests, several tempered people are shown to be allowed to live out their lives. So while the Scions do immediately kill tempered, that's not a universal punishment. In fact it might be a policy unique to the Scions themselves.

 

I'm perfectly fine with the assumptions people make that those with the Echo are tempered by Hydaelyn already. I'm fine with the Twelve being basically the equivalent of primals themselves. That stuff is in lore, of course.

 

That said, I'm speaking in majorities, because the other variety feels snowflakeish to me. ONE small group of people killed Titan once without being tempered. I don't remember that particular part of the story myself, but it's been awhile since I've done it. You don't think Titan would learn from that? There are a FEW people that are allowed to live out their lives as tempered beings. Being /that/ special isn't always smiled upon in RP, so that's why I was offering the generalizations I was.

[Kage]

Edit: On another note, at the end of the Amal beast tribe quests, several tempered people are shown to be allowed to live out their lives. So while the Scions do immediately kill tempered, that's not a universal punishment. In fact it might be a policy unique to the Scions themselves.

 

SPOILERS RAWR You know I haven't done them all yet T_T Really is that Loonh Gah you didn't say T_T

 

The band of mercenaries who took down Titan named the Company of Heroes tell you that they used the Kobold aetheryte to go in and defeat him. Involves the very long series of quests including the imposter, Brayflox, wine, and a feast. I'm pretty sure that they do not have the Echo. I'm still curious as to how a blind Lalafell beat Titan >_> <_<

[Dakki]

Edit: On another note, at the end of the Amal beast tribe quests, several tempered people are shown to be allowed to live out their lives. So while the Scions do immediately kill tempered, that's not a universal punishment. In fact it might be a policy unique to the Scions themselves.

 

SPOILERS RAWR You know I haven't done them all yet T_T Really is that Loonh Gah you didn't say T_T

 

The band of mercenaries who took down Titan named the Company of Heroes tell you that they used the Kobold aetheryte to go in and defeat him. Involves the very long series of quests including the imposter, Brayflox, wine, and a feast. I'm pretty sure that they do not have the Echo. I'm still curious as to how a blind Lalafell beat Titan >_> <_<

 

I believe the Lalafell lost his sight during the fight against Titan. Clearly, his short stature played to a disadvantage when he found himself directly below Titans loincloth.

[Hyakki]

Edit: On another note, at the end of the Amal beast tribe quests, several tempered people are shown to be allowed to live out their lives. So while the Scions do immediately kill tempered, that's not a universal punishment. In fact it might be a policy unique to the Scions themselves.

 

 

The only one I'm aware of that was spared in the storyline is Loonh's mother but even though she's been taken back home I highly doubt she can ever live a normal life, given her mental state. For now, she's harmless but if she starts to attack others in the name of Ifrit, they may have to execute her.

 

There was a tempered Brass Blade that appeared to be lucid but I don't think our character spared him, it was more like he escaped after his little speech (or did Loonh kill him later... I don't remember that part of the story clearly)

 

 

Considering the quantity of tempered individuals and the political/financial nature of the region, execution was the most reasonable solution. To take a 'wait and see' approach consumes money, manpower and other resources the city can barely afford to its normal citizens and puts the populace at risk should they escape custody.

[Steel Wolf]

Clearly, his short stature played to a disadvantage when he found himself directly below Titans loincloth.

 

I'm a Roegadyn and I'm below Titan's loincloth. Nobody is safe.

[Yssen]

Slooooow it down a sec. There is something that need clarification. 

 

You do not need the Echo to fight a Primal. You need the Echo to avoid being tempered by a Primal. While all of the Primals can temper, not all of them choose to do so. Titan only tempers Kobolds, and Rahmu only Slyphs (so far as we have seen, this may change). Garuda, also only tempers Ixal, as she has a disdain for those who are not bird people. Of the Primals that we know of thus far, only Ifrit and Leviathan temper people outside of their associated Beast Tribe. Ifrit seems to temper whoever he can get his hands on. Leviathan has pirates and such that are tempered to serve him just as loyally as the Sahagin. 

 

It is worth mentioning Siren as well. Whatever the heck she is (jury may still be out on that one), she certainly enthralls people to her crazy sing song will.

 

Just wanted to point out the slight leap of logic before things went too far down the "have to have the Echo to fight Primals" road. Do not HAVE to have it. Just want to have it if a Primal decides you would make a better slave than opponent. 

 

Stuff to consider. Yar.

[111]

One thing I've noticed from the Amal beast quests, is that tempering is a variable thing. During the questline you come upon a person who was "Baked too long" in the fires of Ifrits flames, and turned out quite crazy. However the main antagonist of the questline is quite sane and logical, so much so that he doesn't seem any different than any other evil henchman.

[Kage]

From my perspective though, the only beasts who were tempered were Sylphs. I didn't notice Titan having any effect like that on the kobolds. That are faced.

[Yssen]

We'll have to wait for confirmation, but we are getting Kobold faction daily things. One assumes it will be a splinter faction of non-tempered Kobolds, much like the Ash faction of Amal'ja. 

 

Pretty safe bet that every Beast Tribe enemy you run into is tempered. Unless otherwise specified, like with the Sylphs and the Ash Amals. Yar.

 

My logic largely stems from how the Kobolds act in CSes when their Primal is involved. Heck, how all the beast tribes act when their Primal is involved.

[No Longer Exists]

Other than being fanatically devoted to Ifrit, the antagonist of the Ash storyline is quite sane but that's the point here.

 

Being tempered by a primal fundamentally alters an individual's mind. 

 

I didn't want to comment on this thread earlier because my initial reaction to it was less than favorable. I sort of did this: :frustrated:

 

However, after getting over that flicker of nerd rage, I feel that I would like to applaud and thank Nat for bringing this up and developing a take on it that's rather unique. A man-made primal tempering a person, it's unique and fresh. (I assume so due to the character's wiki page history, yes...I looked at it for moar info)

 

In that regard, if my assumption is true then go with the best possible aspects to compliment your storyline! Enjoy!

 

As to the lore, each tempered is autonomous, yes. However, there's an obvious change in that the will of the primal guides them. Usually (in game), that guidance is to find a way to summon the primal to the material plane or do something the primal wants done.

 

Cheers!

 

-Black Hat

[111]

Other than being fanatically devoted to Ifrit, the antagonist of the Ash storyline is quite sane but that's the point here.

 

Being tempered by a primal fundamentally alters an individual's mind. 

 

I didn't want to comment on this thread earlier because my initial reaction to it was less than favorable. I sort of did this: :frustrated:

 

However, after getting over that flicker of nerd rage, I feel that I would like to applaud and thank Nat for bringing this up and developing a take on it that's rather unique. A man-made primal tempering a person, it's unique and fresh. (I assume so due to the character's wiki page history, yes...I looked at it for moar info)

 

In that regard, if my assumption is true then go with the best possible aspects to compliment your storyline! Enjoy!

 

As to the lore, each tempered is autonomous, yes. However, there's an obvious change in that the will of the primal guides them. Usually (in game), that guidance is to find a way to summon the primal to the material plane or do something the primal wants done.

 

Cheers!

 

-Black Hat

 

Yeah I probably should have mentioned the tempering wasn't by one of the Lore primals, but by a player character. I made this thread about the Lore primals though, so I could get some context about what tempering actually does. Since obviously the player and I are figuring this out as we go, I'm trying to use the actual primals as a base.

 

The actual player in question was an attempt to make an artificial primal, by imbuing a mortal embryo. So the whole needing aether to manifest and such doesn't really apply too much, because she has a physical body.

[FreelanceWizard]

There's a few lore points I feel I should raise. First, while Garuda may not typically temper non-Ixal, she definitely attempts to do so right after you "defeat" her in the story mode battle as punishment for your insolence in attacking her. The issue of losses due to tempering is brought up in other side quests as well, so it stands to reason that the only "safe" way to fight a Primal is with the Echo protecting you.

 

Second, even "good" Primals like Ramuh twist the minds of their followers and seem more than happy to temper when they have the opportunity to do so. Ramuh may be primarily interested in defending his people, but the tempered Sylphs obsessively attempt to capture and present for tempering the Sylphs of Little Solace in an effort to "unify" their people -- and Ramuh clearly has no problem with tempering such captives.

 

Finally, as far as the Scions and the Garleans know, Primals are hazardous to Hydaelyn because they absorb and consume enormous amounts of Aether, thereby damaging the land (and ultimately, if allowed to run unchecked, killing the planet). Assuming they're correct, Primals and their followers are inherently problematic even if they're non-aggressive. Some (Ifrit, Garuda) are just more of a problem than others, because they're actively aggressive. In practice, that means some PCs will respond exceedingly negatively to a known Tempered PC.

[Therese]

After reading your last post, I think this is getting into conceptually uncharted territories for a storyline that we're not getting as much context to as we will need to make even a decent stab at what's going on metaphysically. (Say that three times fast.)

 

Anywhos, I'll circumvent that previous bit of information -- I honestly can't say what would happen because hellall if I understand it -- but as far as primal tempering this is how I've seen in-the game.

 

Mentally: As we are all aware, the Primals themselves appear to possess their own unique personalities and preferences. Not all Primals are made from the same cloth. You have Ifrit, who is the poster child of aggression and domination, but then you have Titan who honestly struck me as a nurturing father that is ROYALLY PISSED at the player characters for causing harm/killing his "children," then you also have Garuda who is both proud, confident, and at the same time insecure and vindictive (though that might be my own personal interpretation). You can also see that the beastman that worship begin to take on personality traits of the Primal that they have summoned. If I recall correctly, the Amal'ja actually had peaceable trade relations with Ul'dah before they summoned their Primal. Afterwards their aggressiveness and tendency to raid caravans for aetheryte earned them the gall from the Jewel of the City. I think the best example we see are the Sylphs. The Sylphs originally had no intention of summoning Ramuh, but fear and destruction to the Shroud made them do so. After they summoned him (though we are told he did not heed their summon until he felt that his divine justice was needed), his tempering drew them toward a collective unit and they brought vengeance and retribution to those who would threaten their forest. Unlike the Amal'ja, who are destructive almost for the sake of destructiveness, the Sylphs still maintain their quizzical and playful demeanor. Only now they are using it for the service and protection of their woods rather than for fun and silliness.

 

I think one thing that hasn't be touched on, though, is the fact that the tempering process effects the SOUL. This is a bit more severe than just touching a person in the mind -- though it appears they can do that too. This goes beyond just aligning a person's sense of what they want to do, but appears to go deeper to changing the fundamental reason a person was made to live. It is my belief that the individuals who appear shattered and broken due to this process are the ones that have had the biggest clash between what their heart and mind tells them they are and to what the change has made their soul TELL them to feel and believe. The ones that appear to handle this best are the ones that were more closely aligned to the primal in the first place. For these individuals it is not a change of their fundamental being but rather just a re-alignment of their desires and goals.

 

Magic: I don't think you are wrong in the assumption that the Primals provide a measure of their magic to their subjects. All of the Beastman Tribes that have summoned their primal has some kind of buff and magical attack that utilizes this aspect. The Amal'ja love to use Enblaze, Blaze Spikes and Fire-based magic. The Sylphs use Enthunder and Thunder spells like they were tossing candy. The Ixal use Enaero and wind-based evasion buffs. And the Kobolds usually have a Mini Titan's Wrath move which works a lot like Titan's plumes. Now, as for right now --I don't think-- the Sahagin have been successful in summoning Leviathan --so far--. I know they are trying to, but as far as I am aware the Lord of the Whorl has yet to heed them. That being said, there is also a camp of Tempered Hyur and Lalafells just North of Zan'hraak. And I don't believe they used Fire as much as their Beastman counterparts.

 

Communication: Of what i have seen, and if Hydaelaen is believed to be a Primal-like entity, the link between subject and primal is not two-way. I will agree wit the people that said that the communication between Primal and Tempered appears to have more in common with a one-way radio. "I will tell you what to do and you will obey." I suppose another video game analogy would be the Archdemon for the Darkspawn from Dragon Age.

[Ildur]

Natalie, since you have mentioned the tempering was made by a physical character instead of a proper Primal, I think your best bet is to play the 'tempering' like an actual obsessive/possesive syndrome with a side serving of magical curse that forces her to comply every order from the temperer. Everything else is pretty much optional.

[Sounsyy]

There's a few lore points I feel I should raise. First, while Garuda may not typically temper non-Ixal, she definitely attempts to do so right after you "defeat" her in the story mode battle as punishment for your insolence in attacking her. The issue of losses due to tempering is brought up in other side quests as well, so it stands to reason that the only "safe" way to fight a Primal is with the Echo protecting you.

 

Wanted to add just a little on to this, as I've seen a few comments saying that Titan doesn't temper people. When you sign up for the Titan Extreme Quest "Quake Me Up Before You O'Ghomoro" Commander R'ashaht Rhiki specifically states that Lominsa will not send her troops in to help defeat Titan because the loss of forces due to Tempering would be too great.

 

But I will also back what others have been saying that you do not require the Echo to defeat a Primal. But should a Primal attempt to Temper you, you will be powerless to resist it if you do not have the Echo.

 

 

Now, as for right now --I don't think-- the Sahagin have been successful in summoning Leviathan --so far--. I know they are trying to, but as far as I am aware the Lord of the Whorl has yet to heed them.

 

Leviathan was first summoned by the Sahagin in 1562 of the Sixth Astral Era. Leviathan was then summarily defeated by The Company of Heroes around the same time that they defeated Titan. The Sahagin have been hostile towards Lominsa ever since. Prior to 1562 though, a 1.0 NPC named Sisipu claims that the Sahagin were a harmless beast race who's worst crimes against Lominsans were cutting fishing nets. 

 

However, there's currently no lore to support that Leviathan was summoned more than that one time.

[Oroban]

What about Elder Primals? Things like Bahamut and Odin, I'm pretty sure either simply don't temper, or are incapable of it in the whole. Ascians try to summon Bahamut, but not out of any tempering, since the first the world saw of him in ages was the calamity, and there's no way that tempered people would live from before history until now. Since there's no evidence that they even -can- temper, what would the consensus on that sort of thing be?

[Sounsyy]

What about Elder Primals? Things like Bahamut and Odin, I'm pretty sure either simply don't temper, or are incapable of it in the whole. Ascians try to summon Bahamut, but not out of any tempering, since the first the world saw of him in ages was the calamity, and there's no way that tempered people would live from before history until now. Since there's no evidence that they even -can- temper, what would the consensus on that sort of thing be?

 

I think there is sufficient evidence to support that Bahamut can "temper". I'm of the opinion that Nael deus Darnus is a victim of said Primal's influence. I think it was in the Twin Adder GC Quest "Don't Kill the Messenger" where you have a pleasant chat with Gaius van Baelsar and he speaks kind of at length about how Darnus used to be very different person, and how he slowly became twisted by the secrets of ancient Allag. (Dalamud in particular.) Also when you fight Darnus at Rivenroad he speaks in blind reverence and admiration of Dalamud, very much like the tempered beastmen do to their Primal. 

 

There's also the Dalamud Cultists, but I highly doubt they're tempered. I think they've just got a few screws loose. And they don't really worship Bahamut, they worship Dalamud, which until the Calamity was thought to be Menphina's Sister. No one knew there was an Elder Primal tucked inside of it.

 

 

As for Odin tempering, no clue. We haven't seen any evidence of it. Of course, there isn't a group that worships the Elder Primals, as they haven't been seen since Allagan times. But I would reason that since 7/8 known Primals can temper, I'd wager that they all have the ability to temper if they desire.

[Ildur]

Ascians could be tempered, though. According to the main storyline Ascians exist primarily on a spiritual scale, not physical. If they are not physical, there's no reason to think they age. The 'people' we see aren't the Ascians: they are just possesed by them. Since tempering is the reclamation a Primal makes over a soul, this very well applies to Ascians.

 

There's also the possibility Ascian souls are, just like Echo users, claimed by another different entity that functions in the same way Hydaelyn does. This entity could be Bahamut or something else. Right now, there's no way of say if they wish to summon Bahamut because they are their servants, or because of some other scheme like just depleting Hydaelyn's aether. This seems to be the case, based on how they dedicate theirselves to push people into giving crystals to the beast-tribes.