Will you PLEASE stop trying to arrest me.

[Erik Mynhier]

Well the thing is, Erik's not even close to being a criminal. It sounds like another person playing as a Flame/Brass Blade/Paladin/Sultansworn?? is working against another Sultansworn and Flames character Erik.

 

So two cops essentially. @_@ With one apparently trying to use their own authority that so far people have respected, to start going down lines that clash horribly with others' authority.

 

You see I, in very simple terms am a cop like character, but I designed him to be a cop to NPCs only. And only recently has a PC come to me seeking a battle of wills. That is his idea, not mine, so it works.

 

This arrest thing has been going on and off for months. It is also on different charges each time.

[Ignacius]

Well the thing is, Erik's not even close to being a criminal. It sounds like another person playing as a Flame/Brass Blade/Paladin/Sultansworn?? is working against another Sultansworn and Flames character Erik.

 

So two cops essentially. @_@ With one apparently trying to use their own authority that so far people have respected, to start going down lines that clash horribly with others' authority.

 

You see I, in very simple terms am a cop like character, but I designed him to be a cop to NPCs only. And only recently has a PC come to me seeking a battle of wills. That is his idea, not mine, so it works.

 

This arrest thing has been going on and off for months. It is also on different charges each time.

 

Is.... HE the criminal!?

 

*cues a hammond organ stab in g minor*

[Candor]

I think that perhaps people are missing the point here. Like an earlier player has already stated, it's impossible to measure this situation without knowing all the information. But taken at face value, Erik is complaining about harassment, not RP. The anonymous player in question is clearly using RP as a flimsy charade for this harassment, and that's about the extent of which RP is involved here.

 

Unfortunately, Erik, if you're innocent in this, your only option is likely to Blist this other player. It sounds as if you've had discussions with this player already and that they're unwilling to relent for whatever reason. There's really only one thing you can do with such people - ignore them.

 

Now, in response to the assertion that playing authority figures is somehow bad form. While I understand why a player would say this, I don't agree with it. I do agree, however, that authority figure characters too often are authority figures. By this I mean that Officer McCop is a veteran of the beat - he knows the ins and outs of the big bad city, he's rebelled against his commanding officer, he's collared some real scumbags. And every single time we see him, he's inexplicably on duty, in a bar, telling someone about all his Dirty Harry exploits. Doing a grand old job!

 

I just want to remind people that cop is an occupation, not a species. Like any other job, you have off hours, and just like in the real world, cops do their socializing during those off hours. This is for two very important reasons. 1) Cops are usually being cops when they're on duty. 2) People tend not to socialize with cops in uniform.

 

It's just a matter of playing a cop, not playing authority. If you play one of those characters that's always on duty (yet never in uniform,) then you've probably missed the point. Take a shift off, grab a beer and hit on the hot chick, tell her how you got that nasty scar - you're doing all of this anyway. And when the bar brawl breaks out, sit back and watch, you're off duty.

[C'kayah Polaali]

From an "art of RP" standpoint, this is another example of why it's just not a good idea to play law enforcement, nobility, Hearers, or anyone who has any societal authority over other PCs in an MMO. Regardless of the situation, the fact of the matter is that such characters don't have any real authority; they can say they're arresting me all they want, but they have no ability to enforce that. That lack of enforcement power is what leads to situations like this one. It also complicates RP, because one player is asserting authority over another without their consent. In such a situation, you have only two options: accept it, or ignore it. There's no real way to RP around it unless you accept the assertion whole cloth. This causes real problems in situations like this one, where both characters are asserting what amounts to conflicting authority.

 

On the topic at hand, I don't really see a good way out of this. If nothing else, the two characters have conflicting authority and the two players have differing opinions on the legal rights that authority provides, so the only really viable option seems for them to just ignore each other.

Ultimately, to me, it all comes down to agency. This is normally important in any RP, but it's especially important in RP that involves characters with authority over others.

 

I've done a lot of RP involving my character (a crook) and cops. In general, it's all been extremely rewarding RP and I've enjoyed it a great deal. The key, in my opinion, is that I've taken the time to discuss things OOCly with the other players, setting out things like personal limits for outcomes and the like. In essence, doing this turns a situation where someone is claiming authority over someone else into one where both people agree.

[Ignacius]

Now, in response to the assertion that playing authority figures is somehow bad form. While I understand why a player would say this, I don't agree with it. I do agree, however, that authority figure characters too often are authority figures. By this I mean that Officer McCop is a veteran of the beat - he knows the ins and outs of the big bad city, he's rebelled against his commanding officer, he's collared some real scumbags. And every single time we see him, he's inexplicably on duty, in a bar, telling someone about all his Dirty Harry exploits. Doing a grand old job!

 

And he's just a couple days from retirement.

[Magellan]

@ Gyr: Playing auhthority itself isn't necessarily poor form, but assuming you have authority in someone else's plot is. If I elect myself the king of Eorzea and run around demanding everyone bow down to me and pay me taxes... I could get maybe 1 follower? ( there's always one)

 

People have trouble separating the two. They think; 'just because I made myself lawman, I have the right to arrest people.' Well... no, no you do not. I appreciate lawful good never sleeps, and is always on duty, so to speak. Heck, I've played a number of lawful chars myself... but I always make sure I'm welcome in the scene. Making assumptions in rp just like in real life, is often what leads to drama.

[Ignacius]

@ Gyr: Playing auhthority itself isn't necessarily poor form, but assuming you have authority in someone else's plot is. If I elect myself the king of Eorzea and run around demanding everyone bow down to me and pay me taxes... I could get maybe 1 follower? ( there's always one)

 

People have trouble separating the two. They think; 'just because I made myself lawman, I have the right to arrest people.' Well... no, no you do not. I appreciate lawful good never sleeps, and is always on duty, so to speak. Heck, I've played a number of lawful chars myself... but I always make sure I'm welcome in the scene. Making assumptions in rp just like in real life, is often what leads to drama.

 

To be fair, I've RPed a long time, and almost universally the larger problem is always people who outright state in their information that they are known and wanted criminals, who then seem surprised that lawmen attempt to arrest them in town, having seen them in wanted posters that, at times, the criminals themselves have posted in their character information.

 

I'm not sure why that's less of a problem in FFXIV at the moment, at least from what I've seen, but my best guess is supply and demand.  Criminals are being played too slickly and there aren't enough of them around.  There are a lot of cops and local authorities around, though.  There just isn't enough hell being raised in towns to warrant the gigantic player police presence.

 

That'd be hilarious if we got together and decided, as a community, that we would RP a gigantic layoff event where half the police and authority figures were downsized out of the budget.

 

EDIT:  Or we could bus in criminals from other MMOs.

[Ildur]

It would seem like there's a pretty violent clash of micro-canons here, if not outright harassment by someone who misunderstood how law enforcement works in an RP setting. If you haven't tried direct OOC diplomacy, I suggest you do. But if it doesn't (or didn't) work, the only thing left to do is to call it quits. If you are not having fun, there is no reason to continue with it.

[allgivenover]

This is why you don't RP authority figures, like a police officer.

[Magellan]

@Ignacius: I agree that the ffxiv community is pretty unique in that there seem to be more lawmen than criminals. Maybe that's why they've resorted to arresting each other??

 

My point is a lawmen only has law type authority within their own canon, and within others who have recognized that authority. You cannot expect to be recognized by the entire community because the entire community does not exist within the same canon. Its that simple. That's where the dubiousness of authority comes into play. You have to know your limits. What you are to some people has no direct bearing on who you are to other people. It is not your choice whether or not you get to impose yourself as lawmen in my canon/story. That choice is up to me.

 

Its the same with criminals; I once had a criminal attack my group in the middle of LL in broad daylight, and 'surround us with archers'. In his canon, LL was a loosey-goosey lawless place where such attacks could happen. In my canon it was not.I handled it ICly, but the end result was that he was left under a sleep spell, with the Maelstrom on the way (we left it up to him whether he escaped or not). He was understandably upset his criminal didn't succeed, just as Iwould been upset if he had. It would have broken my canon of LL as a reasonably safe place. That's why OOC communication is key.

 

You cannot assume your take on things is shared by everyone, and you must communicate if you want to impose your will onto someone else's

[Ignacius]

@Ignacius: I agree that the ffxiv community is pretty unique in that there seem to be more lawmen than criminals. Maybe that's why they've resorted to arresting each other??

 

My point is a lawmen only has law type authority within their own canon, and within others who have recognized that authority. You cannot expect to be recognized by the entire community because the entire community does not exist within the same canon. Its that simple. That's where the dubiousness of authority comes into play. You have to know your limits. What you are to some people has no direct bearing on who you are to other people. It is not your choice whether or not you get to impose yourself as lawmen in my canon/story. That choice is up to me.

 

Its the same with criminals; I once had a criminal attack my group in the middle of LL in broad daylight, and 'surround us with archers'. In his canon, LL was a loosey-goosey lawless place where such attacks could happen. In my canon it was not.I handled it ICly, but the end result was that he was left under a sleep spell, with the Maelstrom on the way (we left it up to him whether he escaped or not). He was understandably upset his criminal didn't succeed, just as Iwould been upset if he had. It would have broken my canon of LL as a reasonably safe place. That's why OOC communication is key.

 

You cannot assume your take on things is shared by everyone, and you must communicate if you want to impose your will onto someone else's

 

Well it's fairly obvious Limsa isn't a lawless place, it just harbors a lot of lawless people.  They're packed to the gills with guards.  Ul'dah is the only place I've had a scrap in town so far.  It's pretty obvious, from both the story and lore, that Limsa isn't a place where that can happen, and it has absolutely zero basis in reality.

 

Sounds like trolling.

[FreelanceWizard]

Eep. I didn't mean to say that playing a character with authority is bad form, just that it's a bad idea to play it as your primary concept with no caveats in the typical MMO RP environment. There's lots of ways to do it well, some of which have been mentioned in this thread (handwave it as happening offscreen, have a jurisdiction that only covers NPCs, have a jurisdiction or concept that only covers your RP group, etc.). IMO, the important thing is not asserting authority OOC over other players that don't consent to it -- or assuming that other players will or must consent to it -- because that never goes well. The broken ruins of player-run cities and player-run law enforcement authorities serve as testaments to the invariable problems that arise when players who don't really have any authority at all start acting as if they do.

 

On the flip side, of course, those who play criminals have the responsibility as RPers to hew to the lore. That includes not assuming that the city-states have no functional law enforcement and that you can do whatever you want, or having it be well-known that your character is wanted by every authority in Eorzea and yet somehow you're never in any danger from that. To play a bad guy plausibly, you have to play smart. Otherwise, just as in the case of the overzealous authority figure, you may well find yourself being ignored by those who might otherwise want to RP with you.

[Aldotsk]

Seriously you know who you are. You only halfway read my current story and are always up my ass. Please stop, ok. Now if it happens again you're going on the Blist. I have asked you to stop. I like how you RP but the constant blind lawful good stuff needs to be dialed back. So knock it off, I am not going to be arrested and stripped of title or whatever you are doing. As I told someone tonight its faith, rp only works if we all agree. No one agrees that you are going to interrogate or arrest or have me kicked out of the Sworn. Its my PC and I'm the only one that can do that.

 

I have talked this over with many mutual friends in the past, and to you ooc about this. So get the hint. No names, you know who you are, just back off.

 

 

P.S. Why did you lock up my officer? She was being held by a sex trafficker and you lock her up because her pimp was threatened by me for threatening the Sultana in public? How does that make sense? So he make a verbal threat to the Sultana so you pay him off, arrest the victim, and threaten me? A Sworn reacting to a threat to the Sultan? What?

 

I am just going to vitally respond to this since this is my personal problem with him, and he seems to like to make himself look innocent to many of these case. 

 

First of all, you are absolutely a hypocrite. Your actions as a character is considerably the most out-broken character that anyone could interact. You have put yourself in IC position that you are unable to be "justified" or have an antagonist conflicts because you feel that your character revolves around you. You don't care if there is an antagonist or someone to aggravate with you. You like to throw "I am gonna put alpha and omega judgement on you" if you find their characters to be intimidating, but you won't accept other characters that will antagonize you that could jeopardize your character's position? Maybe perhaps that you aren't the only -military person- or -an officer- in the city that watches people's actions. 

 

Second, interrogation is not an arrest. It's a question like you are being pulled to local office to gain evidence. You obviously haven't really received them since you seem to think that interrogation is like the end of your character's perfect little world. It's not. There is always an alternative to recover your character. I do not personally mind having my character and be arrested, and interrogated by Natalie or any other characters. That is the only fair thing that I could have to have an interesting roleplay. But you? You just want a perfect reputation in yourself that nothing bad will happen to you. Also, yeah. I wasn't originally trying to arrest you. I was trying to interrogate you by asking questions that needed to be cleared up of why you'd decided to make death threats to the other character when he wanted to get in touch with your -new- member and didn't really do anything but say that he is Lolorito's man.

 

Third, "I am veteran and I am authority here" is not the way how a character claim to be. You claim yourself that you are above the highest rank for Immortal Flames and also Sultansworn, and you go off to all other characters and threaten them to "completely destroy them with your power", and then say that you have the right and power to do whatever you want with your "badge" because you are the highest rank and you are the oldest soldier in the department is not what a roleplayer should do. If you have that much authority in power and you get away with everything in what you do, then what's the point? If this isn't god-modding, then I don't know what you'd call it.

 

Fourth, considering that you have been always sneaking behind people's roleplay and then just read upon people's past when you weren't really there ICly is called "meta-gaming". You can't just say that you 'heard' or you 'knew' about stuff when you were not there and when it was spoken privately. Listening to conversation OOCly should NEVER be considered as you have been in that event ICly. You broke that one giant rule in Roleplaying community.

 

Fifth, you put yourself with an incurable disease and then got yourself killed. And then you brought yourself back to life without the incurable disease just completely being gone. If it isn't god-modding, then what is this? Sure you can get yourself revived I suppose, but when a character was having an incurable disease and then after he/she died, the disease doesn't just go "hey! It just miraculously disappeared!" There needs to be explanation to that content, but you just went off retconning the entire situation you've had in your IC backgrounds. 

 

Last, I did cooperate and I did just accept the fact that you just walked away from aggravating with my character. You obviously can't seem to resolve the issue between IC and OOC. 

 

Your member was held behind the bars because the member tried to lie. I've played my role where I've interrogated the suspect and victim, and then looked at the opposite way where victim could be suspect and the suspect could be victim. The roleplay was perfectly fine, and you decided to be melodramatic about it because you don't want your character to be "ruined". 

 

Oh and last, I do not mind you blacklisting me because I do not appreciate your roleplaying style. You seem to have this stubborn attitude that you want things your way, and that's just how a child would behave. Instead of PMing me OOCly, you've decided to make a thread about you being all innocent.

 

PS: Yes, law enforcement or any military based RP sucks because people want to be the highest rank and this stuff happens because no one wants to cooperate. 

 

To other members: If you think what I did was wrong, feel free to blacklist me. However, this is my personal problem with him and this should not have gotten overboard because he'd like to cry about it and make a thread thinking I would not respond to this because he decided to claim me anonymously.

[Naunet]

Am I the only one who thinks the OP should have been kept to PMs...? Seems a bit of an inappropriate thing to go publicly to the forums about, especially when it's a spat between two players - not some general comment.

 

I'm honestly kind of surprised at the moderatorship that this wasn't locked within the first reply. >_>

[Aldotsk]

Am I the only one who thinks the OP should have been kept to PMs...? Seems a bit of an inappropriate thing to go publicly to the forums about, especially when it's a spat between two players - not some general comment.

 

It really is. Because he doesn't seem to get the hint that if he made these threads, I would not dare to show myself by humiliating myself to "harass" him when I haven't really harassed him besides being antagonistic ICly. But there isn't even any sign of antagonism! It's not like I am being an archrival, it's more of my character has every sign of doubts to his authority.

[111]

Am I the only one who thinks the OP should have been kept to PMs...? Seems a bit of an inappropriate thing to go publicly to the forums about, especially when it's a spat between two players - not some general comment.

 

I'm honestly kind of surprised at the moderatorship that this wasn't locked within the first reply. >_>

 

Yeah I agree, nothing constructive will come of this. Especially now because both parties are known. It will leave nothing bad feelings all around.

[FreelanceWizard]

Am I the only one who thinks the OP should have been kept to PMs...? Seems a bit of an inappropriate thing to go publicly to the forums about, especially when it's a spat between two players - not some general comment.

 

*puts on admin hat*

 

If names had been named in the initial post, or it hadn't turned into a larger (and interesting, IMO) discussion about authority in RP, I'd have locked it this morning. However, it's not uncommon for people here to post a complaint that's been made generic and for that to start a discussion offering advice and talking about the larger issues. It wasn't an easy call, but it looked initially like the thread was going in and staying in a positive direction.

 

Of course, now that all parties are out in the open, I would like to ask the parties involved to take their dispute to PM and not have it out on this thread. You've both said your piece; there's no reason to get into a public flame war.

[Ignacius]

Am I the only one who thinks the OP should have been kept to PMs...? Seems a bit of an inappropriate thing to go publicly to the forums about, especially when it's a spat between two players - not some general comment.

 

*puts on admin hat*

 

If names had been named in the initial post, or it hadn't turned into a larger (and interesting, IMO) discussion about authority in RP, I'd have locked it this morning. However, it's not uncommon for people here to post a complaint that's been made generic and for that to start a discussion offering advice and talking about the larger issues. It wasn't an easy call, but it looked initially like the thread was going in and staying in a positive direction.

 

Of course, now that all parties are out in the open, I would like to ask the parties involved to take their dispute to PM and not have it out on this thread. You've both said your piece; there's no reason to get into a public flame war.

 

Can I still talk about how fun it would be to play Hannibal Lector with the current clash of authority figures, Clarise?

[Aldotsk]

Can I still talk about how fun it would be to play Hannibal Lector with the current clash of authority figures, Clarise?

 

Please do, I'd definitely love a Hannibal Lecter style of character!

[FreelanceWizard]

Can I still talk about how fun it would be to play Hannibal Lector with the current clash of authority figures, Clarise?

 

You sure can. I'm hoping my post headed off any flames so we can get back to the, ahem, "meaty" discussions the original post spun off.

 

*hands out some fava beans and chianti*

[Kage]

As someone who is.. sorta looking to be on the more 'lawful' side of things in RP I'd love to have more interactions between both those who play criminals or dark aspects and 'lawful' people in drawn out plots that can also get into the meat and gritty politics of the cities (in this case Ul'dah).

 

I mean I feel that some things should definitely be hashed out OOCly but, I dunno. Maybe it's happening and I'm just not getting any

[MrPoopyButtHole]

I shot an unruly patron in the knee in the Quicksand (we discussed it first OOC). Thankfully no lawmen were there mwhahahaha.

[Ignacius]

Can I still talk about how fun it would be to play Hannibal Lector with the current clash of authority figures, Clarise?

 

You sure can. I'm hoping my post headed off any flames so we can get back to the, ahem, "meaty" discussions the original post spun off.

 

*hands out some fava beans and chianti*

 

An admin tried to ban me once.  I ate his liver, with some macaroni cheese and a nice birch beer....

 

Pftpftpftpftpftpft....

 

Maybe I'll make a serial-killer character.  I'm kind of enjoying my biker-ganger-ishness on Ignacius, but I've played the crazy sonovabitch before.  Guess I'll dust that one off and start a Thaumaturge.

 

In the meantime...

 

When you're playing a criminal or a cop, it's best to keep the golden rules in mind.  Your character doesn't know what he doesn't know, no matter how much you know, you can't auto the actions of other people, and always remember to use your common sense.

 

I mean, on the one hand, if you're a law enforcement official, you can't just ambush other officers, senior or junior, if you see them speaking to criminals.  It's just not smart, considering that might be an internal thing.  On the other hand, if you're engaging in questionable activities, the law will almost inevitably catch up to you, and you'd better be ready if you get caught.  If you want to live on this side of the law, you'd better be a smooth operator.

 

We don't have all the information to pass judgement, as I said before.  Being that I'm on Gilgamesh, it really doesn't concern me anyway.  I'd say, unless you're ready to handle the inevitable, don't play the law or dabble in crime.  Be a basketweaver or a soldier.  Being a cop or a crook is deceptively difficult to do right because so much can go wrong for your story so quickly.

 

As we say in architecture, think of every blatant cock-up to your design as an opportunity for development.

[cuideag]

Being a cop or a crook is deceptively difficult to do right because so much can go wrong for your story so quickly.

 

As we say in architecture, think of every blatant cock-up to your design as an opportunity for development.

 

^ ^ ^

 

I've found that the key to helping keep stories running and avoiding the inevitable swarm of heroes who will do their best to put an end to you just because is LOTS of OOC communication. Villains have stories to tell, too!

[Roen]

 

^ ^ ^

 

I've found that the key to helping keep stories running and avoiding the inevitable swarm of heroes who will do their best to put an end to you just because is LOTS of OOC communication. Villains have stories to tell, too!

Yes! Villains with their own motivations, hang ups, and stories are so much more interesting. 

 

But playing them out in the open for public consumption is sooo tricky and many times difficult, because everyone wants to thwart/listen in/get the better of you with their heroes.  I like for villainous plots to simmer and develop over a period of time and build! 

 

I have had *vague* and *somewhat scheming* conversations in public (always emoted to be really quiet or kept low) between the not-good characters because I want them to be existing with the rest of the RP world, but actually doing outright villainous things? Likely that will be in a controlled setting and only with players I trust.