The three nations are at war, who wins?

[Zyrusticae]

See, the problem with that argument is that it's incredibly counter-productive. The ONLY reason to even attempt to conquer Gridania in the first place is for its natural resources; burning it all down negates any reason for going there at all. You don't even have the argument of Gridania being a massive existential threat to justify such extreme measures, as, as everyone already mentioned, most of their most threatening features only work defensively, not offensively.

 

Of course they COULD be really, really stupid and burn it all down and lose all of that for the sake of "victory", but, uh, yeah, nobody really wins in that scenario. May as well just throw everything to the Empire if you're gonna go that route.

[Warren Castille]

Hey, no one is looking at this logically. In a strictly "Let's you and him fight" scenario that's the most direct way to obtain victory.

[C'kayah Polaali]

I find it laughable that the top comment is "No one wins, but Ul'dah probably loses." Objectively speaking, I'd say Gridania probably loses. Second-smallest population, if I'm not mistaken (if it's third, they're even worse off), and their force of lancers, archers and conjurers are, as stated in the reddit thread, best suited to a defensive action (likewise for the Elementals). If you're always on the defensive and on the backfoot... you're eventually going to lose, even if you outlast a thousand sieges. 

I don't buy this.

 

The nature of the landscape of Eorzea means that Gridania is simply the richest in terms of natural resources. This, coupled with their absolutely insurmountable defensive terrain advantage, in addition to the aid of the Elementals, the Sylphs if they decide to pitch in, and the Padjal (who are all White Mages, which, I should remind you, is the single most powerful form of magick in all of Hydaelyn), means they could easily force any invading force out with minimal losses.

 

Hell, just think about what they're surrounded by - you have to cross either a desert or a massive frozen tundra just to reach them! By the time you get there, you will have to be maintaining massive supply lines while the Gridanians have virtually limitless supplies thanks to the bounty of the forest.

 

Explain to me how they would "lose", somehow, just because they don't need to leave their forest at any one point in time. I'm pretty sure convincing everyone else that they are untouchable after losing hundreds or thousands of troops in a single battle would be enough of a victory that they would win by default, simply by virtue of sustaining the fewest losses. It doesn't matter if someone EVENTUALLY wins a thousand years later if they sustained a thousand times more losses in the process of achieving that so-called "victory".

 

The syndicate gives gives a bounty to anyone who starts a fire in the forest. Ul'dah gives incindiary devices to the refugees and gives them food to plant them in the forest. Limsa sets up trebuchets and lobs barrels of flaming oil into the shroud.

 

The only way to control gridania would be to tear down the shroud first. It wouldn't be impossible, and it would work eventually, unless Gridania came out of the shroud to stop it, and negated many of their advantages.

That would only work if the Elementals continue to sit back and allow people into the Shroud. Which I personally don't buy at all.

 

That said, it's clear who wins if the three nations are at war: C'kayah wins! Destruction = profit for your friendly neighborhood smugglers!

[Dogberry]

Yeah, burn the magic forest. Worked in Princess Mononoke.

[Nero]

Yeah, burn the magic forest. Worked in Princess Mononoke.

 

Hey, it almost worked in FernGully too!

[Melkire]

See, the problem with that argument is that it's incredibly counter-productive. The ONLY reason to even attempt to conquer Gridania in the first place is for its natural resources; burning it all down negates any reason for going there at all. You don't even have the argument of Gridania being a massive existential threat to justify such extreme measures, as, as everyone already mentioned, most of their most threatening features only work defensively, not offensively.

 

Of course they COULD be really, really stupid and burn it all down and lose all of that for the sake of "victory", but, uh, yeah, nobody really wins in that scenario. May as well just throw everything to the Empire if you're gonna go that route.

 

Hey, no one is looking at this logically. In a strictly "Let's you and him fight" scenario that's the most direct way to obtain victory.

 

This.

 

This whole discussion is more or less "SUPERMAN VS GOKU, WHO WINS?". It's a hypothetical that discards any and all interplay between the entities, including justification and cause, for the sake of argument. In any actual encounter, Superman and Goku would befriend one another and go hit up a diner somewhere.

[111]

See, the problem with that argument is that it's incredibly counter-productive. The ONLY reason to even attempt to conquer Gridania in the first place is for its natural resources; burning it all down negates any reason for going there at all. You don't even have the argument of Gridania being a massive existential threat to justify such extreme measures, as, as everyone already mentioned, most of their most threatening features only work defensively, not offensively.

 

Of course they COULD be really, really stupid and burn it all down and lose all of that for the sake of "victory", but, uh, yeah, nobody really wins in that scenario. May as well just throw everything to the Empire if you're gonna go that route.

 

Um Ul'dah would be burning down trees. Think of it as just clearing some brush so they can get to all those delicious minerals.

[Dogberry]

In any actual encounter, Superman and Goku would befriend one another and go hit up a diner somewhere.

 

That's pretty much what happens in my ClarkxGoku slashfic. At first.

[Zyrusticae]

Well, as far as I'm concerned, any wartime victory condition that precludes the acquisition of resources is completely useless to me.

 

If all you care about is which side stands on top at the end, and disregard whether or not they can survive afterwards, it just feels cheap.

 

Um Ul'dah would be burning down trees. Think of it as just clearing some brush so they can get to all those delicious minerals.

Yeah, no, I can't think of it this way. It's just too many levels of stupid for me to accept.

 

All that food, all that natural flora and fauna, all that wood, and you just throw it all away for some mineral resources that you can't even confirm are actually there in the first place?

 

I mean, really. I can see it happen, but it wouldn't be a victory, especially as the desertification would increase dramatically as a result of the clear-cutting. Several generations down the line those people are going to be looking incredibly stupid once they realize what they lost.

 

Sounds like RL, really.

[Melkire]

Yeah, burn the magic forest. Worked in Princess Mononoke.

 

...so you're saying that the Elementals are going to strike out across Thanalan to hit Ul'dah. Or across the sea to hit Limsa. In their weakened state.

 

The relative distances and proportions don't exactly line up in your comparison... especially if guerrilla warfare is employed. Wouldn't the Elementals go after the individuals setting fire to the forest rather than the abstract entity behind them?

 

In any actual encounter, Superman and Goku would befriend one another and go hit up a diner somewhere.

 

That's pretty much what happens in my ClarkxGoku slashfic. At first.

 

...please forward that to me.

 

 

 

On-topic... I present William Tecumseh Sherman.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tecumseh_Sherman#Total_warfare

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman%27s_March_to_the_Sea

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorched_earth

[Warren Castille]

If all you care about is which side stands on top at the end, and disregard whether or not they can survive afterwards, it just feels cheap.

 

You know how I know you don't read comic books?

 

I'm mostly kidding in good spirits; We're just arguing who would win between Spider-Man and Batman.

[Zyrusticae]

Yeah, burn the magic forest. Worked in Princess Mononoke.

 

...so you're saying that the Elementals are going to strike out across Thanalan to hit Ul'dah. Or across the sea to hit Limsa. In their weakened state.

 

The relative distances and proportions don't exactly line up in your comparison... especially if guerrilla warfare is employed. Wouldn't the Elementals go after the individuals setting fire to the forest rather than the abstract entity behind them?

Well yeah, the elementals attacking the entities setting fire to the forest is more than enough to discourage the practice.

 

Even siege engines wouldn't be enough, unless they could build them sufficiently large and sturdy enough to withstand the ground itself being pulled from beneath them.

 

On-topic... I present William Tecumseh Sherman.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tecumseh_Sherman#Total_warfare

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman%27s_March_to_the_Sea

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorched_earth

The problem with that example is that they were mostly moving through already-settled open areas with plenty of civilization around, not skulking through an incredibly thick, wooded forest with an incredibly hostile defensive force picking at their army from every direction.

 

You know how I know you don't read comic books?

 

I'm mostly kidding in good spirits; We're just arguing who would win between Spider-Man and Batman.

But those are just two individuals! I think it's a very different thing when we're discussing who would win in a three-way FFA between three enormous city-states.

[Kage]

Warren means Superman and Batman.

 

But I'll now make it.... Superman v Batman v .... Goku!

[Askier]

No matter which one is victorious at the end, the Empire would just walk in and crush what remained of the defenses of Eorzea and win.

[Warren Castille]

But those are just two individuals! I think it's a very different thing when we're discussing who would win in a three-way FFA between three enormous city-states.

 

You're still overthinking this! All the geopolitics and logic falls off. No one wants to know WHY Godzilla and the Original Megazord are fighting, we just want to see them fight!

[Melkire]

Yeah, burn the magic forest. Worked in Princess Mononoke.

 

...so you're saying that the Elementals are going to strike out across Thanalan to hit Ul'dah. Or across the sea to hit Limsa. In their weakened state.

 

The relative distances and proportions don't exactly line up in your comparison... especially if guerrilla warfare is employed. Wouldn't the Elementals go after the individuals setting fire to the forest rather than the abstract entity behind them?

Well yeah, the elementals attacking the entities setting fire to the forest is more than enough to discourage the practice.

 

By abstract entities I mean, for example, Ul'dah when in fact there's a company of mercenaries camped out at the Shroud's border chucking the Eorzean equivalent of Molotov cocktails. Are the Elementals intelligent enough, or can they be guided, to strike out at a distant entity such as a city-state instead of merely dealing with the immediate and obvious threat?

 

My gut feeling tells me no, but I'm not familiar enough with 1.0 lore to say either way. My impression from the early 2.0 CNJ quests is that the Elementals merely lash out indiscriminately.

 

 

On-topic... I present William Tecumseh Sherman.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tecumseh_Sherman#Total_warfare

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman%27s_March_to_the_Sea

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorched_earth

The problem with that example is that they were mostly moving through already-settled open areas with plenty of civilization around, not skulking through an incredibly thick, wooded forest with an incredibly hostile defensive force picking at their army from every direction.

 

I don't see why you'd need to skulk through a forest when the plan is to burn down what's in front of you before you progress. Otherwise a fair point: I linked General Sherman to illustrate the philosophy, not the practicality.

 

 

Warren means Superman and Batman.

 

But I'll now make it.... Superman v Batman v .... Goku!

 

As always, the answer comes down to, "Does Batman get a Green Lantern Ring? If not, how much prep time does he get?"

 

 

 

EDIT: And Dogberry, Nero, if we're going to be referencing movies as arguments, I reference Avatar.

[Aya]

Zrusticae! You're thinking way too hard!  This is a fun-time thread!  Grab some peanuts, light a cigar, sit back and enjoy :-]

[Kage]

You better be referencing Cameron's Avatar and not the last airbender movie..

 

Also, if Batman gets the Green lantern's ring wouldn't Superman?

 

Gridania also has the Sylphs and Ramuh. Burning the Shroud down means the wrath of King Mog and Ramuh coming down on the invaders.

[Warren Castille]

Bats is a Yellow Lantern you dorks.

 

 

 

[Melkire]

You better be referencing Cameron's Avatar and not the last airbender movie..

 

Also, if Batman gets the Green lantern's ring wouldn't Superman?

 

Gridania also has the Sylphs and Ramuh. Burning the Shroud down means the wrath of King Mog and Ramuh coming down on the invaders.

 

Yes, Cameron's.

 

The age-old argument goes that Batman is an incredibly determined, resolute individual with an iron will, and that giving him a Green Lantern Ring - which operates off the user's will - is an upgrade of such drastic proportions that he could feasibly take on Superman and win (mind you, not All-Star Superman... don't even get me started on THAT).

 

Assuming that the Sylphs and the Moogles have the resources on hand to summon them, yes.

 

 

 

EDIT: Dear Warren, why_not_both.jpg

 

 

 

[Unnamed Mercenary]

You better be referencing Cameron's Avatar and not the last airbender movie..

 

Also, if Batman gets the Green lantern's ring wouldn't Superman?

 

Gridania also has the Sylphs and Ramuh. Burning the Shroud down means the wrath of King Mog and Ramuh coming down on the invaders.

 

Yes, Cameron's.

 

The age-old argument goes that Batman is an incredibly determined, resolute individual with an iron will, and that giving him a Green Lantern Ring - which operates off the user's will - is an upgrade of such drastic proportions that he could feasibly take on Superman and win (mind you, not All-Star Superman... don't even get me started on THAT).

 

Assuming that the Sylphs and the Moogles have the resources on hand to summon them, yes.

 

 

 

EDIT: Dear Warren, why_not_both.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

We could just have the moogles shut down mail as well. And have them raid the enemies' alcohol. That'll end the battle fast enough

[Kage]

The mail system is only needed when you need to get things to far places. In a FFA there's no need for mail. Just aethernet or chocobo the mail to the surrounding sites.

 

Moogles going down first for stealing alcohol.

[Unnamed Mercenary]

The mail system is only needed when you need to get things to far places. In a FFA there's no need for mail. Just aethernet or chocobo the mail to the surrounding sites.

 

Moogles going down first for stealing alcohol.

 

Alcohol-stealing moogle brigrade will now be known as "Morale Murderers", or M&Ms for short. They will emerge drunk and victorious.

[111]

So in order to have a war... there needs to be a reason.

 

In light of that, which of the three cities would be most likely to strike a deal with Garlemald, and turn the others against them. My money is on Ul'dah, if the syndicate struck a deal with the Garleans they could probably send all the refugees back home, and they'd have access to Garlean markets and magitech goods.

[Kage]

I'm fairly sure that the Syndicate would do that. In fact, I think someone has mentioned that someone in the Syndicate -had- been doing that?

 

If the Syndicate truly wanted the Sultana out of favor instead of trying to facestomproll other city-states, they'd probably let her lose all face in a war and use the war to put themselves in complete power.