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A really cool look at what can be achieved with Archery *Resource*


Zelmanov

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Perhaps not the place for this post. But this video, though a little propaganda-y can really show the versatility of Bow and Arrow in real life as opposed to Legolas-style impossibilities. In fact, what is so amazing is the fact that a lot of these feats may actually put Legolas to shame.

 

So Archers, this is for you! Hopefully this spices up your archery! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEG-ly9tQGk

 

ALSO READ THIS To Temper your excitement, brought to light by Polaali : http://geekdad.com/2015/01/danish-archer/

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I'm curious about that claim that it pierced that armor. There are factors we don't know, like what type of metal that was, at what gauge. Aluminum chain mail is cheap and abundant, and it's just for show. The penetration looks pretty shallow, too. I would have preferred it if they had showed the armor off the dummy to point out the holes it made in the chain.

 

Don't get me wrong, he's a fantastic archer, and no doubt there is definitely merit to his claim that archery is far more versatile than people standing in a line firing off volleys. This is a great video for drawing inspiration for an archer character.

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I'm curious about that claim that it pierced that armor. There are factors we don't know, like what type of metal that was, at what gauge. Aluminum chain mail is cheap and abundant, and it's just for show. The penetration looks pretty shallow, too. I would have preferred it if they had showed the armor off the dummy to point out the holes it made in the chain.

 

Don't get me wrong, he's a fantastic archer, and no doubt there is definitely merit to his claim that archery is far more versatile than people standing in a line firing off volleys. This is a great video for drawing inspiration for an archer character.

Chainmail didn't actually offer much in the way of protection against a piercing attack, the reliance was on the padding people wore underneath for that. Chain was generally used as a force displacer against slashes such as against an axe or sword.

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I'm curious about that claim that it pierced that armor. There are factors we don't know, like what type of metal that was, at what gauge. Aluminum chain mail is cheap and abundant, and it's just for show. The penetration looks pretty shallow, too. I would have preferred it if they had showed the armor off the dummy to point out the holes it made in the chain.

 

Don't get me wrong, he's a fantastic archer, and no doubt there is definitely merit to his claim that archery is far more versatile than people standing in a line firing off volleys. This is a great video for drawing inspiration for an archer character.

Chainmail didn't actually offer much in the way of protection against a piercing attack, the reliance was on the padding people wore underneath for that. Chain was generally used as a force displacer against slashes such as against an axe or sword.

 

True, but I'd still would like to have seen the armor than trust that this guy's half-draw pierced armor grade chain mail.

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I'm curious about that claim that it pierced that armor. There are factors we don't know, like what type of metal that was, at what gauge. Aluminum chain mail is cheap and abundant, and it's just for show. The penetration looks pretty shallow, too. I would have preferred it if they had showed the armor off the dummy to point out the holes it made in the chain.

 

Don't get me wrong, he's a fantastic archer, and no doubt there is definitely merit to his claim that archery is far more versatile than people standing in a line firing off volleys. This is a great video for drawing inspiration for an archer character.

Chainmail didn't actually offer much in the way of protection against a piercing attack, the reliance was on the padding people wore underneath for that. Chain was generally used as a force displacer against slashes such as against an axe or sword.

 

True, but I'd still would like to have seen the armor than trust that this guy's half-draw pierced armor grade chain mail.

 

Definitely agree with Dogberry on this one. Even though chainmail is suppose to help break up a slashing and bludgeoning attack, the strength behind his arrows can't be much and his close range for the special moves is a bit much.

 

But then again we have aether and imagination! And this video is great for inspiring ideas on how to spice up shooting an arrow or dealing with many foes in RP!

 

Another classic is I love watching Conquest, it's more realistic, but gives some great framework and background on weapons.

 

 

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I also kind of mention this when I do a lot of Dagorhir style battle gaming and larping, which I know isn't actual combat, but it mimics it well enough that I feel safe in making this comment.

 

There is a major, major difference between individual fighting skill and what works well in groups. I have known many fighters who are excellent duelists. In tournaments and one-on-one situations, these guys are fantastic fighters. I have also seen these duelists become an extreme liability on the front line. In many cases, they are the weakest link in the shield wall and become the reason the line breaks.

 

This is important for archery, because archers are more efficient when firing together in large volleys. Even in societies where archery was more than just something peasants did this is true. In fact, it's especially unlikely that any general would allow his finely trained regiment of elite archers anywhere near the meatgrinder. To lose years of training and experience, which they can then pass on to lesser archers and improve the ranks overall, would be considered too great a loss.

 

What we're seeing here is his idea of what archery in a small skirmish might have looked like. In FFXIV we see skirmish scenarios almost exclusively, so it works. But the guy's assertion that he alone has found the One True Way of historical archery is laughable.

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with c'kayah. Should see some of the remaining mongolian markers for claims about feats of archery prowess. some are here.

 

The most I got from those videos that I adapted to another character I have who was a pastoral nomad was the whole holding multiple arrows in the draw hand.

 

But, I dunno, I mean, Mongolians (and other Eurasian steppes cultures who preceded them) carried multiple weapons to battle. They had a longrange bow, a shortrange bow, and at least one melee weapon to be used on horseback. But one of the coolest things they did, imo, was they could shoot behind them as they were retreating.

 

And the ease with which he does that weird little half draw tells me the draw weight on that bow is kinda laughable (you want armor piercing? more draw weight is gonna give you the force you need). You wanna see a culture that still practices archery with some seriousness? Check out the Mongolian Nadaam. Those are some badass archers.

 

Also recurve composite bow best bow. /swoon ;)

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I'm curious about that claim that it pierced that armor. There are factors we don't know, like what type of metal that was, at what gauge. Aluminum chain mail is cheap and abundant, and it's just for show. The penetration looks pretty shallow, too. I would have preferred it if they had showed the armor off the dummy to point out the holes it made in the chain.

 

Don't get me wrong, he's a fantastic archer, and no doubt there is definitely merit to his claim that archery is far more versatile than people standing in a line firing off volleys. This is a great video for drawing inspiration for an archer character.

Chainmail didn't actually offer much in the way of protection against a piercing attack, the reliance was on the padding people wore underneath for that. Chain was generally used as a force displacer against slashes such as against an axe or sword.

 

True, but I'd still would like to have seen the armor than trust that this guy's half-draw pierced armor grade chain mail.

Light chain mail was never much protection against arrows in the first place.  It's simply loose links placed together, which an arrowhead will find a weak spot in there rather easily if the chain mail is loose. The chain mail in this video is decoration, and honestly is a false thing to look out for when it comes to arrows.  Even if the arrow tip hit the link of mail, it will glance off the link and go to the desired target, albeit off-center.  If you wanted protection against arrows, you would need something that is solid and had a foundation.  Adding more links would do for that sort of thing, but also was a very expensive and time consuming process.  That's mainly where plate mail and crossbows came in, one as an upgrade of sorts to tightly woven chain mail and the other to pierce plate from a distance. 

 

This is why the video referenced the leather underneath the chain mail in that demonstration and only referenced the chain mail off hand.  The chain mail in question needs to have more links sewn together, which the coif represents more.  If you wanted something that /could/ pierce light chain mail, bodkin point arrows would do, and he is definitely not firing bodkin arrows, since the arrowhead is too thick for that, and the point needs to be more like a spear and less of a standard arrowhead.

 

Now the problem stating that, is that is what arrows are supposed to do in the first place. They're meant to go through leather and go to the squishy bits underneath.

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I'm very aware. I have made armor. My friends and I have made chain mail, studded leather armor, and plate mail from scratch. I am around armor a lot. One of my long term projects is to build an authentic reenactor quality Knight Hospitaller kit.

 

My point is this:

 

We know nothing about the construction of this specific piece of armor. The weave or what it's made of. Is it aluminum, steel, or titanium, which are three very common materials for modern chain mail that one can easily buy from budk? Is he using a cheap piece of aluminum chain mail and extrapolating out to make claims about history?

 

Then we see no more of the armor after the shot.

 

Is this guy asking us to be impressed that his half draw, close range shot may or may not have pierced cheaply made aluminum chain mail? Or is this a painstakingly woven, high quality mild steel chain mail hauberk and padded gambeson?

 

I have seen aluminum armor fall apart when hit by padded sticks.

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I'm very aware. I have made armor. My friends and I have made chain mail, studded leather armor, and plate mail from scratch. I am around armor a lot. One of my long term projects is to build an authentic reenactor quality Knight Hospitaller kit.

 

My point is this:

 

We know nothing about the construction of this specific piece of armor. The weave or what it's made of. Is it aluminum, steel, or titanium, which are three very common materials for modern chain mail that one can easily buy from budk? Is he using a cheap piece of aluminum chain mail and extrapolating out to make claims about history?

 

Then we see no more of the armor after the shot.

 

Is this guy asking us to be impressed that his half draw, close range shot may or may not have pierced cheaply made aluminum chain mail? Or is this a painstakingly woven, high quality mild steel chain mail hauberk and padded gambeson?

 

I have seen aluminum armor fall apart when hit by padded sticks.

We should talk then, because I'm curious on how it works historically, and don't really understand leather and plate outside of some light reading here and there.

 

Wouldn't arrows pierce chain mail and leather at that short of a distance regardless if the armor was well made or not?

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I'm very aware. I have made armor. My friends and I have made chain mail, studded leather armor, and plate mail from scratch. I am around armor a lot. One of my long term projects is to build an authentic reenactor quality Knight Hospitaller kit.

 

My point is this:

 

We know nothing about the construction of this specific piece of armor. The weave or what it's made of. Is it aluminum, steel, or titanium, which are three very common materials for modern chain mail that one can easily buy from budk? Is he using a cheap piece of aluminum chain mail and extrapolating out to make claims about history?

 

Then we see no more of the armor after the shot.

 

Is this guy asking us to be impressed that his half draw, close range shot may or may not have pierced cheaply made aluminum chain mail? Or is this a painstakingly woven, high quality mild steel chain mail hauberk and padded gambeson?

 

I have seen aluminum armor fall apart when hit by padded sticks.

We should talk then, because I'm curious on how it works historically, and don't really understand leather and plate outside of some light reading here and there.

 

Wouldn't arrows pierce chain mail and leather at that short of a distance regardless if the armor was well made or not?

 

The Geekdad article claims definitely so. I know more about armor than archery, and have never fired actual arrows at any armor made at the workshop. If that's the case, I'd say it's more damning to the guy's narrative than the idea that well-made armor would make a distance.

 

That said, I'm really suspicious of the actual amount of force in his shots. He's shooting for speed, and no doubt has to sacrifice draw distance, and thus power. In that case, I can say the material of the armor definitely matters.

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We should talk then, because I'm curious on how it works historically, and don't really understand leather and plate outside of some light reading here and there.

 

Budget Chainmail is made by using two pair of pliers and crimping rings together in an interlocking pattern. The rings themselves are typically 10-14 gauge wire and between 1/4 to 3/4 inches in diameter.

 

High quality chain is either riveted or soldered together at the ring's split. Each ring. Very time consuming.

 

Either way, the rings themselves each have a single point of weakness, being the joint. It does not take much pressure from a piercing object to split the ring at the seam and spread it. This is why chain is very weak to piercing attacks. That and the fact that the chain hangs loosely means that when you do apply said pressure, the rings tend to re-align themselves allowing an easier entry point.

 

Cutting (slashing) attacks, however, will simply slide off the rings. At that point the real damage comes from the weight of the weapon which could still break bones at the cost of dulling the edge.

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As Coat said, the issue with chain is that it is designed to redistribute pressure across the surface of the strike, the larger the surface, the better protection it offers, however, the blunt force trauma can still split rings, and break bones/rupture organs, which is why jacks were worn, to provide more protection against the impact.

 

Arrows however have a very narrow area of pressure, allowing them to potentially split a ring, and dig in past the padding. 

 

However, as Dog said, the most effective use of archers is in volleys, as you are more likely to hit a vulnerable location, such as a shoulder or face. Look at the battles of Crecy and Agincourt for examples of where large numbers of Welsh Longbowmen turned the tide against French Knights. 

 

Plate was a better defence against arrows than Chain, but it was for that reason that crossbows were invented.

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I was watching this video the other day and thinking to myself how cool it was. I didn't really know about any of that, and after asking a few questions and reading more on the subject I have to admit for a little bit there, I wanted an archer.

 

Still, I think is an excellent tool for RP. Even if it's just for discussion!

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I think what can really be brought to light from the video, however, is more that considering the type of fights most archers in FFXIV get into, the number of enemies, range, what have you. It goes to show that they aren't utterly screwed up close or on the move. 

 

the Geekdad post is equal parts diatribe and enlightening, but given the fantasy world's aether manipulation and the like, may not be so pertinent when it comes to Eorzea.

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