Reppu

I know rainbow is symbolic, but so many colors on a single outfit just offends my fashion senses. But, it'd be for a good cause. I can accept that despite my inner fashionista screaming at me for my crimes against fashion. ... Unless rainbow is 'in'? Hmmm. Someone get back to me on that.

I didn't say anything even resembling that. I simply stated that 'foolish' is not a power word and that you are aggressively overusing them. Yes, we do disagree on that. Also, that's a pretty passive-agressive statement you just made. Maybe y'all should just leave the FC and LS names out of it. We're all members of a lot of things, including the RPC, the ARR playerbase, and humankind. The way you stated my use of power words, was negative. That's all. My apologies for a perception and miscommunication mishap. I'm not perfect. I'm just fairly awesome in my opinion. However, I do believe foolish can be a power word. Again, this is opinion. Let's move on from it, however. No one can have a truly wrong opinion, unless they are truly wrong with out a shadow of a doubt. Again, my apologies if that came off as passive-aggressive. I was simply stating it for clarity, nothing more. I try to be as clear as possible, to avoid miscommunication. Sometimes this peeves people. Can't please everyone, so I should try to please the one person I know I can; myself.

Just leaving this here because, knowing the internet, someone is going to raise fingers and call Naunet a liar or something: Yes, I'm in Unity. I disagreed with my fellow companions and we are all quite fine with it. At least until we initiate the Blood Games of Blood where we will duke it out to know who is right...! Wait, what do you mean that's not how arguments should work...? Companies have a goal to make money, indeed, but they don't have a right to make it. This mentality leads to companies using shady business models and to not respect their customers. It also leads to customers being indulgent against company bullcrap and being unable to demand for improvement. Actually, I was pretty much taking Naunet as seriously and honestly as possible. My statement was, plainly, 'The representatives so far', but Naunet and Twinflame have shown a lot of admirable traits so far. One perceived mishap or two is not enough to entirely stain someone to me. As of right now, I am fairly positive Unity is not filled with whatever it is it doesn't want. I am however suspecting, now, that you all have gladiatorial combat on Sundays and bathe in the blood of the fallen.

I'm going to toss a fun comment in here to sort of try to release a little steam from all parties; Normal is so out-dated. That said, that depends, all of this? On the individual. I'm more tolerant than many, I admit that. I'm willing to put more hope into things, I admit that. I simply ask people if they're willing to do the same. If they are not, that's entirely fine. I am also strictly against volatile or otherwise toxic and abrasive... 'solutions'. I feel they offer nothing. This is part of my 'hyper feminist' thing earlier in the thread. This sect of feminists, not the group as a whole heavens no, are unfortunately some of the most vocal, and most toxic of the lot. This is the kind of thing we do -not- need in the LGBT community. Granted, again, I do not like the term feminist or 'masculinist'. I prefer humanist. I want equality in all manner, for all genders. But that's neither here nor there.

I may PM them to you, but honestly? If you want to punish these people, or speak to them, or do whatever? That's your own issue, not mine. I am not a fan of witch-hunts, but it depends on how you answer this; For someone stating that 1.0 lore should not effect the game, is it not fair to suggest Gilgamesh to them, due to a perceived instance of this style of roleplay being practiced there? Is it not fair to ask if they're from Gilgamesh, with the individuals who practice this? Again, I am not insulting Gilgamesh or saying everyone and anyone is practicing this. It was simply 'Huh, I've seen people from Gilgamesh state this before. Are you from Gilgamesh?" That's all it was. Can we simply leave it at that, and if you are so interested in who did it... find it yourself? I'm really not interested in this topic. I do apologize, though, if it heated you in any manner. But, I'd rather it dropped. And no, this is not me backpedaling. This is me simply not caring, and accepting what you had to say.

Woah woah woah. That's a bad example. Please don't get me glared at by a group I have no public or otherwise ANY affiliations with. Thanks. Even if that's accidental, and I damn well hope it is, we're not trying to destroy people's reputations here. End of the day; we're allies of differing limits.

Of course they do. This is absolutely what your basic every-day casual oppression sounds like. It is polite and calm because it is normal, and the person delivering it does not think they are being discriminatory. Nobody thinks Yoshi is going out of his way to be a jerk or anything. It is what he's doing, though. 'Foolish' isn't a 'power word'. 'Toxic' and 'Unreasonable' are power words. Those ones are on you. You love power words. This is extremely misrepresentation. For one, no, I will in no way trust Yoshida. He is a business man out to get money. I don't think he's evil or a jerk or anything. I like him and what he does. I'm not going to trust him to not oppress, though, because he's already done so. I understand his culture and flatly deny it. I do not tolerate intolerance, nor will I tolerate the aspects of a foreign culture that cause intolerance. What, then, should I be tolerating in this situation? Yoshida's passive discrimination? To that I say: no. And you are well within your rights to have that stance, even if I do not agree with all of it. As for my use of power words? Power words are warranted when they are applicable. There have been toxic words used, by very few people, and unreasonable stances have been used, same as before. To deny the use of power words, even when warranted? Is a denial of an attempt to bring light to what is truly NOT needed in this situation. But, again, this is all opinions. You have the opinion that I am using them, and those I am saying are using them, are not. That is fine. I believe you are wrong that I am the only individual in this case to use them, but your opinion is fine to have. And, really, what's the point of bickering the finer details? Let's just ignore our individual peeves with each other and just strike at the issue at hand, which is what we should be doing in the first place. Again, I am not here with the intent to make enemies, especially with people who should be brothers, sisters, and everything in-between in arms. We have different points on how far we want to take things. Many of us feel we should not take it too far due to the empathy we've been shown. Many also feel that this empathy is discrimination still, if not 'passively'. So, what do we do? Do we fight harder? Do we sit back and see how the hand we're dealt, while staying in the game? Is there a medium we can take? I have no desire to fight with anyone in Unity in this. Any individuals from Unity that I feel I cannot speak with, I am flatly ignoring. And that is only one individual. Naunet is admirable, and you... well, we disagree on what actually counts as 'proving a case', but beyond that you present yourself well.

Pretty much this. We have absolutely no reason to trust a company to not discriminate when the norm is to discriminate. And I have said I have too much faith in humanity. This is likely flawed? But it is my stance. Your stance does not have to be respected, but the right to have it would see blood spilled. Of course I'm squeemish so I'd probably hide somewhere when the fight breaks out. All I can say to this, and this is unfortunate and sad. To me, personally. But, you're obviously allowed to have this stance. Also, really? The giant pink planet was kind of facepalm worthy to me from TOR. For someone who goes on about empathy you sure say a lot of patronizing shit. I don't care how 'unfortunate and sad' my views are to you, man, why would you even say that if only to try to look superior? You're reading too much into things. I am saying that it is unfortunate and sad that you feel this way, because your point is valid. I am sad because the world WARRANTS your viewpoint. Quit searching only for negatives, please. Empathy: The ability to understand and share the feelings of another. Consider the word. I do understand and I do share your feelings. I am sad because it's warranted. Just, this time? I'm putting faith and hope. This time.

Well, the Japanese tend to focus on their own problems more than the rest of the world. I'm totally agreeing with you that it was pretty silly. But I do kind of get why it happened. I'm not in favor of a boycott, but by all means. It would show some impact if that's what you want. But... if you're still going to play, what does that say? I'm not suggesting anything with this. I'm honestly asking 'What does that say?'

All I can say to this, and this is unfortunate and sad. To me, personally. But, you're obviously allowed to have this stance. Also, really? The giant pink planet was kind of facepalm worthy to me from TOR.

Sometimes you only need a short response. I try not to always flood my posts with words, when I can be a minimalist. Since apparently that failed me this time... "I have my extreme doubts that it would be frowned upon, dangerous, or otherwise shunned or reported to show homosexual affection in both a roleplaying and real sense within FFXIV, intolerable and ignorant individuals non-witstanding.' That is what I would have said, were I not trying to be a minimalist. The same thing I've been saying to you thus far. - Also, 1.0 is a very real part of the lore. If you're looking to disregard it, it sounds like you're joining Gilgamesh, since it seems a few people there are gungho for "1.0 never happened"? *rolls eyes at this* Something like this didn't even need to be said at all. Because A. It isn't true in the least and B. Why should something like this even be said in this thread? I'm going to walk away from this fallacy. I've actually seen this tossed around on these very forums. Also, I said 'a few people', because three is 'a few'. I was not attacking Gilgamesh, or anyone in specific. I was not even attacking anyone. There's no need to get your knickers in a bunch. If I'm wrong and this was not being said (although I believe I could find the individuals saying this if I bothered), my apologies. But, you can't honestly speak for your entire server. Nor was I saying all of Gilgamesh was doing this. Thank you. I didn't say this. Please don't lump everyone together just because it's convenient for your point. You didn't, you're right. I've said, what, three times now, that your stance is admirable? That despite a few power words, you are someone I admire despite being on the more extreme end of this? Are you reading my posts that praise you and show empathy?

So the bus-driver said to Miss Rosa Parks: "I acknowledge your request to not sit at the back of the bus, but just sit back there for now and once we're on the road and moving we'll see what the rest of the bus thinks and maybe you can move up to sit with everyone else later." And then Miss Rosa Parks sat in the back for the bus because she understood that her tacitly accepting oppression when it is polite is actually a kind of equality. That's exactly how it happened, right? But... Rosa Parks didn't curse out everyone on the bus and act like a banshee. She just refused with a high chin. Mind you, I'm on your side. I do RP gay characters. I am gay IRL. My only issue is that people are now attacking each other over this to the point where people who may not have an opinion are losing a lot of sympathy for our side. I think you're over-accepting Reppu's mischaracterizations of things that have been said in this thread. They is actually very little vitriol being directed at SE over this. Are we calling them discriminatory? Yes. We are calling them that because that is how they are behaving. Are we being sensitive to Japanese culture? No. We are not Japanese and cultural aspects that actively discriminate against us do not warrant our sensitivities. If we have to fight against Japanese cultural norms, then we will fight against Japanese cultural norms. Nobody in here, as far as I can see, has gone as far as to "act like a banshee". Instead we have been tactfully expressing our anger in ways that, while they no doubt exude frustration and offense, also communicate the source of that frustration and offense. Certain people in this thread are just misrepresenting these as somehow exceptionally vitriolic or vehement, which they are not. The oppressed have every right to be angry, and anyone trying to misrepresent that as "toxic" or unreasonable is completely in the wrong. And besides, they're responding to tone, which is not debate. May Rosa Parks analogy is not a response to the vitriolic accusations. It is applying Reppu's exact logic to an alternate situation. You cannot say that the logic applies to this situation but not that one, because that isn't how logic works. If Reppu's "respect the oppressor" logic doesn't work in all cases, then the logic is flawed. Except your case didn't happen, because history is set in stone. What is reality, now, is we're being heard. We're being understood. We've been shown empathy. Give me a scenario where this approach has happened, and has failed miserably. Then, you have a case. But when you present utter bollocks and fantasy to undermine my case? You've only just immediately failed yourself. Being told to shut up and sit down warrants holding you head up high and pushing against the current. Being told your view is understood and that the stance is being looked into? I, at least, believe this warrants joined empathy. I look forward to your next post, honestly.

No one said to 'chillax' and ignore the issue at hand. This is another extreme statement and is twisting what everyone is saying. What is being asked is to put trust in Yoshida to deliver a favorable outcome. What is being asked is to understand the cultural difference, but not accept it. It is to show tolerance, but not tolerance to intolerance. We're not being violently opposed. We're actually being listened to. We're being shown understanding and empathy. In turn, this should provoke understanding and empathy. This should provoke patience, while keeping the fire burning, and the anvil hot. Just in case we need to reforge our weapons. But if you continue attacking? If you continue forcefully pushing? You will lose that empathy, and you will lose that understanding. No one wants to be bullied. No one should EVER be bullied. And using Microsoft as an example is silly and needs to stop. There's a difference between being told to shut up and like it, and being told that the issue is being looked into.

Thoughtcrimes? This is not 1984 (the novel). There is absolutely nothing wrong with being passionate about opposing inequality, but there's certainly something wrong with telling said passionate person that they need to stop. Really? "white knights that support passive-discrimination." - To anyone not sharing the exact same viewpoint. "Should I be tolerant of gay people being put to death in the Middle East because it's "their culture?" So now we're supposed to accept horrible bigotry and discrimination and evil acts simply because it's someone else's culture?" - To asking for patience and tolerance for the Japanese culture that SquareEnix is rooted in. This is suddenly acceptable? Really? These statements are 'passionate'? You missed my point, and I'll clarify; I noted that an MMO has not launched with, or confirmed before launch, with gay marriage/romance as a feature. And apparently I am correct on this. What I am saying is, basically, there is a chance, slim or otherwise, that FFXIV could be, again this is just a chance in this crazy world we live in, banned or otherwise forced into an 18+ or higher rating, for having this feature, due to how some countries (many) view it. That is basically all I'm saying for anyone who thinks having it confirmed RIGHT NOW will not hurt SquareEnix at all, period. The fact is, a dumb chance does exist, because the world sucks like that.

This is 100% unnecessary. Way to cross the line in an argument. Alerting you to blatant thoughtcrimes is a favor, not a negative line being crossed. If you see it purely as malicious, that is not my intent. I do apologize if you took it as such, but I do not apologize for pointing it out. I didn't actually use that word, but it is true and I will in no way "quit with" them, because it is foolish to think that people who have already engaged in discrimination will do anything else without active, strong pressure against it. It's just a nickname. I've been calling them that for a long while. 'Fool' and 'Foolish' are hand in hand. When you say I am fooling myself, you are undermining my opinion. And, flatly speaking? If you really think that SquareEnix is 100% discriminative, then by all means. However, truly discriminative individuals do not come out and say 'We are looking into it'. This is open-mindedness and empathy. Period. Unless you FIRMLY believe it's a blanket statement, then I really can't convince you otherwise.

Discrimination has already occurred. To think otherwise is to fool yourself. Quite literally the only non-discriminatory options are 1) to NOT say that the marriage system will start with straight-only marriages and to release it without gender restrictions, or 2) to not release a marriage system at all but provide craftable wedding gear that anyone can use to RP their own weddings. That's it. Anything else is either passive discrimination through inaction or the delay of action, or actively discriminatory in the case of the possibility (/high/ possibility, as it's something they've already said they'll do) of releasing the marriage system with gender restrictions. Waiting to "discuss" this issue is discrimination. Waiting for "feedback" is discrimination. Because all of that implies that a marriage system without gender restrictions is somehow less, somehow dangerous, somehow wrong and something that needs to be carefully considered - but it is not. Quit with the power words like 'foolish'. You're hurting your cause every time you use strong words against your own fellows. We do not have to agree on the extent of things, but we're fighting for the same thing. When you fire on your allies, what do you even have to gain? Quit undermining the admirable stance you have shown, with words that are not needed. Let me make something clear; Not everything is a blatant attempt to keep the LGBT community 'down'. This is something everything needs to be open-minded about. While it can be seen as discriminative, and it is, I do not personally find it discriminative because I understand the situation. I am not offended by it because I get the point that is being presented. Come 2.1 and nothing has changed? I will push harder. But right now? I am satisfied. Because, despite logic telling me otherwise? I am open-minded, and I have hope that people will do the right thing with out pushing to the extremes. History has shown me this optimism is foolish, but I trust humanity a bit more. Just a tiny bit. Try to practice some of that open-mindedness. It may get you somewhere. - Re; Also, as for that XBox One example? Yeah that was actually threatening constitutional rights. A bit different there, but a... decent example. - As for your recently edited add-on, I'm sorry that one of your Company members has been doing exactly what we've noted is very -bad- for this. I have not one made a snide remark as Unity as a whole (This backpedals to what I said before about presenting things as a perception, and not as their -facts-), but I have stated the representatives presented on this thread have been operating in a disturbing manner. You, for the most part, are not. Aside from a few powerful words. Also, do you really have anything to gain with the constant use of 'Squeenix'? As far as I can pick up on this word, it's a sort of snide remark toward some of the operation standards performed by SquareEnix since their merger. Correct me if I'm wrong, however.

No one is doing this. There are passionate posts, but no one is "cursing out everyone" and acting "like a banshee". It is patronizing posts like this one, however, that make me want to do so, because it is incredibly frustrating to construct strongly worded but completely rational arguments and then get told to calm down like I am some kind of child who doesn't know how to control myself. Speaking for myself, none of my words even had you directed in mind. I've read the whole thread and I personally think you more or less represent what I'm trying to say. You aren't insulting the people who are presenting points contrary to yours. You aren't swearing every other word. In my eyes, you've been quite effective in your arguing. So, if I personally made you feel otherwise, then I apologize. Because I think the tough words and the harsh challenges are what we need. Not the all caps, the f-bombs, and the likening of Japan to people who execute homosexuals. I would agree that Naunet has presented themselves admirably, sans a rather snide remark to my person earlier in this thread due to a miscommunication, or a lack of understanding to the point I was making. Despite us having different viewpoints, and ignoring that single incident, I can very much say for the approach Naunet is making, it is admirable.

No MMO has currently launched with gay marriage as a feature, confirmed or implemented. The reason why one can consider it as a risk to FFXIV to confirm it before launch, is because there are games (Remember, MMOs are still -games-) that are either flat-out banned, or made into an 18+ and thusly highly inaccessible title in these places. If an MMO HAS done this, please correct me. My research is not always correct.

Okay, buddy, you seriously need to stop mischaracterizing the argument being made by those of us pressuring Squee for marriage equality in-game. Please note: No one is demanding that Squeenix implement marriage right now immediately ASAP BLARGH! So stop using that in your argument. Just stop. You're trying to redirect the conversation to a point that has absolutely nothing to do with the argument originally presented (and the one that we are pressuring Squeenix on). The case as stated is there is ire toward SquareEnix for announcing their plans to implement Opposite-Gender marriage. Yoshida has come out and stated that the subject of Same-Gender is a very touchy (delicate) one, and will be looked at or considered. This, right here, is where many of us, dubbed 'rationals' by another poster, are willing to accept things. For a mechanic not yet implemented, and thus no discrimination has yet been had. This is because there is a chance that this will change before the release in 2.1. If you view discrimination as the original intent was not to allow Same-Gender Marriage, then that is 'fine'. However, should you attack this, you begin to undermine the empathy being presented by SquareEnix, enough to have the topic brought into consideration. If you believe this a blanket statement to shut the LGBT community up, that is within your right. Now, this is where things get trickier; People who are not in favor of waiting to see how things develop, while keeping the anvil hot, are sounding like they are not satisfied. No one has once stated (I will note now, you made a perception and presented it as fact! What you claim I did, I have a quote of you doing right now) they think the LGBT community is demanding it right now. HOWEVER, it is possible to take what IS presented, as it is being demanded to be either confirmed right now, or otherwise will be released at the same time. This, if false, is an easy mistake to make considering the sheer emotion behind the words being used. Nothing can excuse some of the more toxic statements stated, however. And thus, here we come at a major problem; People who seem to be tolerant enough to wait and see if Yoshida can deliver are, and I quote from one of your own Company members, "white knights that support passive-discrimination." This? And I am going to use an unfortunately powerful word here? Is stupid. This is a blatant thoughtcrime attempt, and a witch-hunt for anyone who does not adamantly agree with an individual's point of view. Ultimately? It is a disgusting statement. But let's take it even further, when words are twisted and manipulated that showing tolerance for the Japanese is the same as, and I quote again, "Should I be tolerant of gay people being put to death in the Middle East because it's "their culture?" So now we're supposed to accept horrible bigotry and discrimination and evil acts simply because it's someone else's culture?" This is not just disgusting? But beyond toxic of a comparison to make. This is, again, a thoughtcrime attempt. So, before you use 'statements' to belittle the opinion of a supporter of your cause, but is not quite as 'emotionally invested' as you are? Present some facts. Combined with your own statements earlier, and the quoted individual? All I've gathered from two of Unity's representatives in this thread so far, is a lot of hatred and... surprisingly? Intolerance. And if this is the stance you all are taking, then I am unfortunately incapable of taking this further. I will continue to support this struggle? But not like this. Quit with the thoughtcrimes. Quit with the toxic remarks. When you decide to practice what you demand from others, I'll be happy to discuss such a passionate topic again. So the bus-driver said to Miss Rosa Parks: "I acknowledge your request to not sit at the back of the bus, but just sit back there for now and once we're on the road and moving we'll see what the rest of the bus thinks and maybe you can move up to sit with everyone else later." And then Miss Rosa Parks sat in the back for the bus because she understood that her tacitly accepting oppression when it is polite is actually a kind of equality. That's exactly how it happened, right? I'm beginning to see a trend here with Unity. This is actually very troubling. Extreme statements abound. So the bus-driver said to Miss Rosa Parks: "I acknowledge your request to not sit at the back of the bus, but just sit back there for now and once we're on the road and moving we'll see what the rest of the bus thinks and maybe you can move up to sit with everyone else later." And then Miss Rosa Parks sat in the back for the bus because she understood that her tacitly accepting oppression when it is polite is actually a kind of equality. That's exactly how it happened, right? But... Rosa Parks didn't curse out everyone on the bus and act like a banshee. She just refused with a high chin. Mind you, I'm on your side. I do RP gay characters. I am gay IRL. My only issue is that people are now attacking each other over this to the point where people who may not have an opinion are losing a lot of sympathy for our side. Keep in mind, I actually support gay marriage in all forms ( I kind of have to be! ), be it in video games or real life. So, I'm a supporter? I'm just not bringing out the pitchforks yet. A boycott would be beyond the call of duty at this time. Maybe if 2.1 rolls around and nothing is shown of it. And even then? I would expect to further boycotts against any and every RPG that does not allow gay relationships or marriage. Equality is also striking with it.

Sometimes you only need a short response. I try not to always flood my posts with words, when I can be a minimalist. Since apparently that failed me this time... "I have my extreme doubts that it would be frowned upon, dangerous, or otherwise shunned or reported to show homosexual affection in both a roleplaying and real sense within FFXIV, intolerable and ignorant individuals non-witstanding.' That is what I would have said, were I not trying to be a minimalist. The same thing I've been saying to you thus far. - Also, 1.0 is a very real part of the lore. If you're looking to disregard it, it sounds like you're joining Gilgamesh, since it seems a few people there are gungho for "1.0 never happened"?

Extremely doubtful.

Well, let's be a bit more broad in our view; Just because gay marriage is not allowed, does not mean gay unions of other types are. Much like the real world today. BASICALLY, you're not breaking lore, either way. Just maybe The Twelve don't care much for guy on guy or girl on girl? Eh, doubtful. Just... don't worry about it so much. Most people don't care about gay roleplaying so long as it's tasteful, respectful, and ultimately wholesome. Don't, you know, go at it on a bar table. ANY sexuality, don't do this!

If there is no post For or Against it, then shrug. All we know is, at things stand right now, only gay marriage is not allowed. For now. Or straight marriage. Cause it's not implemented.

Supposedly there's an old post by one of the story devs that says homosexual relationships are accepted in Eorzea. This is mildly conflicting with the marriage aspect, but... My view is like this; If that post exists? Then gay marriage is also accepted, just real life sort of conflicts with canon in this case. Sadly, not everyone can keep OOC out of IC, you know? Otherwise, it may just be a newly budding and steadily acceptable thing if there is no official word on it. Either way, I doubt you're breaking lore for being gay. And I doubt anyone would care if you RP'd a wedding if the 'official thing' is never given. Don't worry about breaking lore, unless there's some sort of... gay pride rally busting quest or something silly.

Really, you need to be civil, as other people are stating. This sort of hyperbole is what we're trying to prevent. Or, stereotyping is ludicrous and hypocritical at this juncture. Please. If one of the arguments is already basically a sterotype of 'well it's Japanese culture' then fine, let's apply that to everything instead of just us. Or, it's a case of 'We understand why they aren't immediately embracing it, due to their culture'. Stop painting everything as extremes like others have done so. It's not helping anyone. No one is in the wrong here, at the end of the day. No wrong has been committed yet. All of this is speculation. Is it likely SquareEnix will deny gay marriage in FFXIV? Unfortunately, yes. But until that 'wrong' has been committed, preemptive strikes are uncalled for. Proclamation and a firm stance is justified, but attacks are NEVER the answer.