Reppu

Really, you need to be civil, as other people are stating. This sort of hyperbole is what we're trying to prevent. Or, stereotyping is ludicrous and hypocritical at this juncture. Please.

To be specific, the plan is, as stated, to implement with opposite sex marriage only. Any plans for further implementation are subject to debate within SquareEnix. As there are quite a few months into 2.1, it is a realistic prospect both versions would be allowed. But, you are correct. As the plan is set, it's opposite sex only. Thus why putting pressure is fine, but Yoshida has noted it is being looked into, so strong-arming is not required.

Of course! But too much fire burns, so you have to be both firm, and gentle.

Oh, well, of course! If they're going to include same sex marriages then this entire debate is pointless and they're not discriminating. I thought that was sort of obvious though lol. You'd, uh, be surprised that this entire thing is about the 'what if', really. The levels of emotion flaring simply on a potential 'what if'. I'm kind of afraid of what'll happen when 2.1 comes around, and gay marriage is not implemented.

I'd stress that, at this time? SquareEnix is not guilty of discrimination in FFXIV. If, by November or what have you, gay marriage is not included in the marriage mechanic? Then by all means. But, for now, all SquareEnix is guilty of is... considering it? I would note that mostly everyone has suffered some form of discrimination, if not directly the anti-gay kind. But, discrimination is the same no matter what form it comes in. As a result, I actually understand and have experienced many forms of discrimination, including this topic as a whole. I consider myself both emotionally invested, and rationally inclined.

Now, now. While this is all very true, the fact of the matter is, there is no confirmation of it being disallowed or allowed yet. I know! That's why I said "may disallow". Don't worry, I'm not upset over this. You don't need to coddle me! *smiles* I like to employ caution in the face of the unknown, least my face be devoured by badgers. But, I am glad you're very mild-mannered and reasonable!

The benefit offered is irrelevant to deciding whether or not it's discrimination. A candy shop that disallows black people is just as discriminatory as a hospital that disallows black people: The only difference is in the effects of their respective acts of discrimination. As for why this is lumping people into an arbitrary category, disallowing people from using the marriage feature because their characters are the same gender is, well… entirely arbitrary. The only reason they may disallow it will be because of irrational prejudices present in Japan and other countries around the world. Note that whether or not Square-Enix needs to do this from a business or ratings standpoint has no effect on whether or not it is discriminatory. A shop in the early 1900s that only serviced white customers because servicing black customers would have hurt their business was just as discriminatory as one that did so out of the owner's hatred. There may be a difference in moral culpability, but there's no question that the discrimination applied is identical. Now, now. While this is all very true, the fact of the matter is, there is no confirmation of it being disallowed or allowed yet. And I know this is frustrating. But the fact remains that the issue is being looked at, which is to show progress in the discrimination being slowly, but surely, eliminated. You can't expect a giant leap. So long as we accept that, while pushing for change, means we'll be more likely seen as the reasonable sect, righteous victims of prejudice. But when we push and shove and belittle and berate, are we any better? Not saying you're doing this! But there's a time for a firm shove, and more often a time for a gentle touch. We've made progress.

To comment further on this, I never said it was the best alternative, or an acceptable one. Understood! Just to be clear, I was not attempting to single out anyone with that post. I was just trying to explain why many people will not find it to be a satisfactory solution. Of course. As I said, I am trying to avoid enemies here, especially on Balmung. I do not have to agree with what is being said, but I am not trying to adamantly offend anyone for stating my thoughts or opinions in open debate. Again, thoughtcrimes must end.

Not to haul out dangerous terms, but that only makes sense if you're a moral relativist. If you believe in right and wrong—that some things are good or evil independent of how a given set of people feel—then there's nothing discriminatory about thinking disallowing gay marriage is discriminatory. The term discrimination implies irrational prejudicial treatment based on lumping people into an arbitrary category, not merely disagreement as your post implies. Isn't it discrimination to label SquareEnix as morally backwards as Russia and the Middle-East? Or is that just ignorance? Either way, it was meant toward the utter extremes being presented earlier in this thread. Allow me to rephrase to people who are actually making rational parallels; I will not be insensitive to the Japanese culture's traditions, even if I do not agree with them. I do not have to accept them, but I do respect their own respect toward it. And before this potentially gets twisted, no. I do not respect all ancient traditions. I simply admire that the Japanese, despite being so deep-rooted in tradition, are slowly making way for transition and change, while maintaining their traditions to the best of their ability. This, to me? Is beautiful. Even if it takes a longer time than other cultures, it's still worth waiting for.

To comment further on this, I never said it was the best alternative, or an acceptable one. However, it is there if all else fails. Alternatively you can boycott the game, what have you. It's not the desired outcome, but I'll have my wedding cake and eat it, too. Even if it's not 'officially supported'. As for why? Because love, to me, transcends a slip of paper or social acceptance. But again, this is -me-.

If this is honestly enough to make you quit the game, allow me to show you where the door can be found. Do you act this way every time you don't get your way in a video game? There's no need to be hostile to them, due to their unique... manner of representing themselves in the LGBT community. While it is pointless and aggressive browbeating, they are within their rights. Although how far those rights go with hostilities and insults and such mannerisms varies from country to country, they are within their rights. However, I feel there's a sense of amusement involved in the avatar usage of a character from the Touhou doujin series, that is based around the inability to be noticed unless actively forcing this state on others, and the ability to manipulate the subconscious of others to their desires. It's almost telling, really. A common claim is that a developer stated Eorzea practices neutrality in terms of gender preferences. I am actively seeking this post as a way to try to push, with a gentle touch, toward gay marriage being allowed. Until then, we can assume Eorzea is gender neutral, or more 'traditionally' set.

That's exactly the point. Furthermore, the sort of comments I'm seeing here, e.g. "you can RP being married regardless", feel awfully reminiscent of the sort of "you can get a civil union and pretend you're married" comments I hear in real life. The parallels to and the reminders of real-world discrimination are what's upsetting people—or at least what's upsetting me—not the mere fact that I can't marry who I want in a video game. I sympathize with your desire to approach this in a constructive manner, but we must be honest about things: This is unquestionably discrimination based on sexual orientation regardless of whether one thinks it is justified or not. Note what I said following this. "At least, I don't feel it's a major crap on my rights." Just because I do not feel I am being discriminated, and only me, does not mean other people should also feel this way, and if they do not, that they are 'wrong'. ( To clarify due to english being quirky, no one is 'wrong' for not agreeing with me, sans for the extremes I point out below. ) I simply would not find it as discrimination, because I would be discriminatory toward the Japanese for being up-in-arms about their thousand-year-old traditions. Do I feel they are out-dated? Yes. But I am aware of how powerful traditions can be. I am aware that they are changing, and trying to brute force them, to witch-hunt thoughtcrime is not only injustice to it's core, but just flat out hypocritical. I will not be discriminative to those who do not share my point of view, nor do I feel they are wrong unless they are purely intolerant, and only wish to see harm to me, my fellows, or anyone in between. This? Is not only tolerance, but how the world needs to change it's viewpoint. Acceptance and equality is a front every side is fighting. No gender, no race, no sexual orientation is alone in this. Just because someone is not actively fighting for me, does not mean they are actively fighting against me. Thoughtcrimes need to be put to an end, by those in the LGBT communtiy that practices it, and every other community between. There is -nothing- wrong with neutrality. And to claim it only harms others, is witch-hunting. TL;DR - I am not going to scream discrimination at every game with a marriage system for not allowing gay marriage, because I am aware of how protected the out-dated term 'marriage' is. I'd personally fight for this archaic, biblically-wrapped term into something far more acceptable for all parties to agree on, and to rob the zealotric-minded Christian purists of their weakest, but most powerful, defense. You can't claim 'Man and Woman' if it's not so ludicrously protected by some out-dated text.

Most of these are purely assumptions, just as you're saying what we're doing is based off assumptions as well. In the end? All we can do, and respectively should, is wait. That's... the entire point of my argument, or lack there of. Wait, see what happens when it's actually implemented. Calling people white-knights of discrimination is ludicrous, to say the least. Comparing Square-Enix to the Middle-East or Russia is beyond toxic. So on and so forth. Is there a problem in waiting, while keeping the issue known? I, for one, think not. And even if Square-Enix doesn't allow it? It's... not really discrimination. Discrimination would be banning players for even attempting to have non-traditional weddings. But I do hope they don't go the route of not allowing it. But even if they do? Oh well. At least, I don't feel it's a major crap on my rights. But if Eorzea really is neutral on all gender fronts, it would be odd. But I haven't seen the proof of this being stated by a developer/in lore yet. At the end of the day; Both sides are making assumptions. It's assumed SquareEnix will not allow it. It's assumed if they did it too soon, there MAY be backlash (Note the may there, it's what we often use in defense of Yoshida's decision). Better to be cautious with little to no ramifications, than hasty with the potential for them. I do not think the LGBT community should be up in arms when the feature will not even be out for months.

It is absolutely not toxic to call someone on their intolerance - whether intentional or not - actions or words. It is totally okay to be intolerant of intolerance. I am not a bad person for not tolerating racism or sexism or homophobia or religious discrimination or any other bad thing. And incidentally, the only way our equality can be acknowledged is if they actually implement the marriage system with no restrictions. This "taking time to consider" crap? That's not acknowledging equality - that's actually giving credence to the side that would rather there be inequality. What Reppu is saying, I think, is that being intolerant of intolerance is fine. You should be the bigger person, be the adult, and approach it calmly. Let the intolerant person show their idiocy, thier bigotry and.. Whatever other words you want to throw out to describe them. But you, you should be the adult and remain calm and cool. Otherwise, you're no better than they are because you're all acting the same. ATleast, that's how I'm interpreting it. It's what I am saying, and have said in numerous posts. Thank you for seeing it for what it is, and not the LGBT supporter suddenly being supportive of the Middle-East actions. ... Granted, I feel that, while that is horrible? The Middle-East is a minority in so much that it's the firm Christian purists that are actually making advancement difficult. The Middle-East will change when -they- change. Or they won't and no one will care.

It is absolutely not toxic to call someone on their intolerance - whether intentional or not - actions or words. It is totally okay to be intolerant of intolerance. I am not a bad person for not tolerating racism or sexism or homophobia or religious discrimination or any other bad thing. And incidentally, the only way our equality can be acknowledged is if they actually implement the marriage system with no restrictions. This "taking time to consider" crap? That's not acknowledging equality - that's actually giving credence to the side that would rather there be inequality. Taking time to consider it with a mechanic that isn't implemented yet. You demand change immediately, but are not sensitive to the other side of the thing. Keep in mind this is a culture based on tradition, heavily, for generations. It's going to be a slow process for them, but at least it's more open-minded in Japan, enough that it can be -considered-, then it is in Russia, or the Middle-East. And yes, it is toxic to compare everyone who isn't immediately on your side, to the Middle-East. That's beyond toxic. That's hateful. That is what you do when you take context, bend it over, and shove an entirely different thing down it's throat. Japanese tradition and standing population decline =/= Middle-East anti-homosexuality execution practices. Get off it, everyone, please. But I do understand I am the 'minority' here, even if my increasing reputation supports I have -some- agreements on my side. I will not 'fight' this nor make enemies, because I am not here to make enemies. I am simply here asking people to understand the other side. The actual other side. Not the Middle-East. Not Russia. Japan. SquareEnix (Not Squeenix) is a Japanese company, and a very traditional one in so much that they still hold firm to that tradition. Should this tradition change? We can say 'yes' all we want, but it's the Japanese that must come to that decision. We can edge it forward as much as we want, but we need to be examples of the 'good' behind it. For as much as a bunch of gamers count, which can sometimes be a lot.

What is this I don't even I DON'T EVEN. Why the FUCK should I be accepting of someone else's irrational and unreasonable hatred? Why should I, a member of the oppressed population, be accepting of someone else's desire to oppress me? I don't know what the hell you're smoking but seriously, did you even read what you just wrote? Should I be tolerant of gay people being put to death in the Middle East because it's "their culture?" So now we're supposed to accept horrible bigotry and discrimination and evil acts simply because it's someone else's culture? No. HELL no. Seriously, pike off. By accepting their homophobia you're offering tacit approval of their homophobia. Your toxic behavior shames us all. Perhaps you will be more tolerant of a nation struggling with it's population, both in abundance and in a recent decline of reproduction, just as you have the gull to demand tolerance. You use extremes because you lack the foundation to make a case. You compare people to the most vile of foes, simply because they do not share your extremist mindset. You insist on slinging absolutes and utter negatives, to deface and defame those you stand against. No, you should be tolerant of Yoshi-P and the FFXIV developers, because they are actually acknowledging the requests of far more reasonable and far more deserving individuals. Your demands are being looked into. Your equality is being acknowledged. But so long as you throw slander? So long as you use toxic absolutes and false comparisons when someone stands with this cautionary, understandable stance considering the differing in cultures, differing in national station? You're doomed to fall into the discrimination side of things as well. I fight for my equality while understanding the actual, real-world problems with the ones we're dealing with. I do not immediately cast them and others into the most vile of extremists, just because they are cautionary in a massive, world-changing debate. I understand equality in all positions, not just my own. I understand social upheaval is necessary, but both sides must understand the ramifications, to begin to demand change. I will never call someone who doesn't side with my point of view, such... blatantly disgusting and insulting things. We'll not speak again. I've said my peace considering your stance, and only hope you realize how you're acting.

And in the chance, likely as it may be, that nothing comes of all of it? Set the example. Push for your equality, but keep in mind that while we're asking for acceptance and equality, we must also be open minded to the difference in culture, and the slowly progressing change of the world. While this is a realistic issue? This is also a game. If by November there is no gay marriage? Hold your own ceremonies. Throw big bashes. Have your weddings even if they're not using some random mechanic. Show everyone you won't be kept down. But be tolerant of the fact that other cultures, other restrictions still exist. Be accepting, while not submissive. Fight, but fight with passion.

Uhm... I'm honestly confused as to what you think I was arguing for. We know marriage isn't going to be in the release version of the game, that it's coming some time after the game launches. What we don't know is if the system will come with ridiculous gender restrictions or not. Exactly. Put some trust in Yoshi-P I say. Strike the anvil if it begins to cool, but do not sling mud and do not beat the anvil into fragments. I'll fight for this as much as needed, but I personally will not step beyond the bounds of reason. If the head developer says he is looking into it, and is asking for patience due to the delicate nature of this topic due to this day and age? I respect immensely that he is looking into it. This is far more than many others can claim. He also likes roleplaying, so shrug.

I try not to boast my sexuality because it's not anyone's business? But I consider myself pansexual, bordering asexual due to my actual lack of interest in sexual acts, although I can find a man or a woman very nice to look at, but my lack of interest in gender borders remains. I am, ultimately, affected by this in so much that in a technical sense. It just depends if I opt to play a Male Character or Female Character. Although I am obviously playing a Female Character, so this would only strike me if I opt for a Female Character as my romantic partner, in a sense of Roleplaying, and I -require- marriage to solidify it in-game. In the real world? I'm in the discriminated sect! That's why I -support- this movement, but not to toxic, mud-slinging levels. I strongly support the LGBT movement. I just feel that swinging the bat at those who are opting for patience, is bad form.

Uhm... riots, what? I honestly don't understand what you're trying to say in that second paragraph. Trion implemented marriage when they did because it wasn't a system they had considered when the game released - unlike ARR, where marriage is something Yoshi has told us is for sure coming. It was something Trion did as a gesture of support towards the roleplaying community. Counter Point: Marriage wasn't in FFXIV, unless I'm wrong? I was not active in 1.0. And, riots. That is, if your game is suddenly banned in your country after you've invested money and time into it, you'd probably get really pissed. Granted I doubt Russia would see -riots- over FFXIV being banned a few months down the line because Square-Enix implemented gay marriage? It would be far less likely to be banned -period- down the line. It's far more likely it would be banned in Russia and the Middle-East BEFORE it's released, if it was openly advertised to allow and support gay marriage. Slip it in quietly during Patch 2.1 or 2.2? Awesome. Everyone is happy, we only had to wait a few months. No one gets buttmad besides the unreasonable sect of actually discriminatory fools.

It doesn't have to be legal to be discriminated against. Other globally released MMOs with non-gender-restricted marriage have trucked along just fine, without even a single ripple when it was released. They were also implemented at a point -far- from their launch date, which is often ignored. It's much harder to implement a massive ban and a sudden increase in the ratings when something is already massed in the market and actively being supported. -That- causes riots. Which no one can afford to have.

There's also the chance, a very realistic one, of the game being utterly banned in Russia if gay marriage were allowed. Which, is an extreme shame? Is something Square-Enix cannot ignore as a company. And, I want to stress, I would -love- for gay marriage in FFXIV, to make many people happy. But I also understand that it's something that needs to be progressively implemented at a later date, when things are settled and risks are assessed. I know it's difficult for many to accept, but we're living in a better time than most for this. And this is why you've been asked to have patience. The world is changing, but you can't expect to get anywhere by trying to force it to flip all at once.

Are you honestly trying to claim that implementing a marriage system without gender restrictions would somehow take substantially more time than implementing a marriage system with restrictions? The logic, I see none of it here; all I see are excuses being made to white knight passive discrimination. While it is a poor excuse? This is the kind of toxic behavior, the name calling of calling someone discriminatory toward gay marriage, that poisons the pool, when there's no sign of this even being remotely the truth. Do not take the 'hyper feminist' (when we all know humanists are the truly righteous, not feminists or 'masculinists') route of using powerful, unwarranted words against anyone who is not immediately following the absolute extreme of your argument. Wow. Look at all the accusations Reppu just made against Naunet about her accusations about the other guy. Following your own advice epic fail much lol Reppu also gets a star for using the word "feminist" as an insult. Good show, sir! Do you not know what hyper feminism is? Also, I am unaware that you can take 'white knight passive discrimination' as anything but a toxic remark. Please, if you do not know what hyper feminism is, and how it's hurting the feminist movement, which is actually a humanity-driven equality movement, and not the extremes that hyper feminism employs to depower the male gender in favor of female supremacy (Yes, this is what hyper feminism is), then clearly you do not understand what I am trying to say, "sir".

Are you honestly trying to claim that implementing a marriage system without gender restrictions would somehow take substantially more time than implementing a marriage system with restrictions? The logic, I see none of it here; all I see are excuses being made to white knight passive discrimination. While it is a poor excuse? This is the kind of toxic behavior, the name calling of calling someone discriminatory toward gay marriage, that poisons the pool, when there's no sign of this even being remotely the truth. Do not take the 'hyper feminist' (when we all know humanists are the truly righteous, not feminists or 'masculinists') route of using powerful, unwarranted words against anyone who is not immediately following the absolute extreme of your argument. Stabilizing your game before risking the potential home-country backlash (Which is unlikely, but it is still a thing considering Japan's unstable population) of allowing gay marriage, is far, far, -far- more important. Especially for a once-failed title like FFXIV. You are incapable of arguing that gay marriage will have any money-making impact, in either direction, unless you can somehow guarantee the entire LGBT population will suddenly throw their money at SquareEnix for this, or the entire homophobic population will suddenly quit. As it stands, there is really no real reason, at this time, to devote further attention to the subject than Yoshi-P has already stated, which is 'We're looking into it'. And if you think that's a brush off lie, then clearly you do not know this man. I am going to be patient. You can keep throwing toxic remarks as desired.

Who has threatened to quit so far? It's a common threat on the official forums. But the official forums are also pretty much the massive sum of the minority of the most vocal, and worst, individuals around. It's sort of a blanket statement for anyone who's done so on the official forums, even if they haven't done so here. But, unfortunately, browbeating and threats is the most many people can do. And it never works. In the end, a little patience goes a long way. Most head developers wouldn't even touch on the subject, but Yoshi-P did ask people for patience on this matter. He's responded, is it not enough the issue is at least being considered? If not, then continue striking when you've already gotten an official response. I have my doubts it will any good, and just quite the opposite. Your cries for equality, as righteous as they are, have been heard. Now, you should wait. And if your waiting brings no fruits of labor, then strike again. Do not let the iron cool, but do not break it beneath your blows. Least there be nothing left but scraps and broken dreams.