Oli!

So are you choosing to ignore that every other gatewarden for every other city state was a member of one of those states' military branches, or do you have an alternative explanation for why xenophobic Ishgard would buck that trend wholesale and just hire outsiders instead? Well, I can think of two main reasons. The first reason is that if we look at them at face value, they don't seem to be wearing the traditional military armor seemed for Ishgardian armed forces. The second and more important reason is that, based on what we know of Ishgard and its houses, the Ishgardian State does not always provide the military force. If a claim is staked by a house, then they are the ones that must provide the Knights, a system that is quite different when compared to the military forces of the other nations. If we think of this in tandem with that quote about a house hiring outsiders, then it seems quite possible that whatever House staked that territory may have hired outsiders to bolster their forces. I cannot think of a location outside of Ishgard that is staked by the state instead of a House instead, so this location seems as if it would be in possession of a House, seeing as it is outside of the city in order to follow this pattern. This would be my reasoning behind it.

To whom do you personally believe they referred to when each stated "Our men and women"? Temple Knights are a distinct order that sits above the rest. Certain quests and dialogue indicate that, much like dragoons, valorous deeds can see a regular knight be elevated and promoted to the esteemed ranks of the Temple Knights. I believe the best example is a fellow in Whitebrim, I forget which. I believe that they would be referring to whomever else is within their regiment. That could be anyone that was also hired for that duty; outsiders, Ishgardians, both. Without details on the makeup of that guard force, and who ran it, there is no way to know who would be in that guard force. I did have the feeling that Temple Knights were above the rest. To clarify my wonder, I'm thinking about whether or not Knights hired by houses come from the Temple Knights, or whomever the Houses deem worthy of the honor. If it is the latter, hirees would certainly be possible, and what you stated here does seem to indicate that, at the very least, Knights are below Temple Knights to begin with.

Ah ha, found it. For context however, it should be noted that I was reacting to this quote: Two gate guards still doesn't seem to be quite in that league, is all that I was trying to state. I doubt that two guards total were responsible for an entire region. And even if they were, two people is far from a veritable legion of outsiders. This makes me wonder whether or not Knights are markedly distinct from Temple Knights, which seem to be a church-run order for believers. We have evidence that Houses have knights to themselves, and if that quote about an earlier House and their use of sellswords and outsiders is any indication, it's entirely possible that these guards were hired to guard a claim staked by a house. Although the relation between private knights and Temple Knights is unclear, it is possible that they were the former, and not the latter. But again, speculation. I do think that we're getting a little hostile on both fronts at the moment, however.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't read Sounsy's follow-up post on what Gatewardens were in 1.0. I don't actually see it. Could you highlight the post for me? I'm not trying to sound rude or anything, I'm just really not sure what you're referring to.

There are two listed: http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/K%27leytai Dialogue: Welcome to Camp Riversmeet. I am Gatewarden K'leytai. Our men and women keep vigil over the outlying areas of the Wyrmking's Perch, The Lance, and Twinpools. http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Panha_Jaab Dialogue: Welcome to Camp Crooked Fork. I am Gatewarden Panha Jaab. Our men and women keep vigil over the outlying areas of Maiden Glen, the Hushed Boughs and Scarwing Fall. Strength, work-ethic, and decent connections. Just ask http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Lucia Also, what part of the whole "Kill big dragon, get big title" shtick is particularly difficult to grasp? That seems to be far from "all of Ishgard's borders being policed by outsiders" to me. Hiring two or three outsiders seems quite plausible, especially if the state wants to maximize the amount of competent people killing dragons. But even then, I'm speculating. Everyone here is more or less speculating. We've been speculating back and forth for 4 pages now. The thing that I think we all need to keep in mind is that just because someone is pointing out the ways in which the lore may make something difficult, does not mean that they are saying that the lore makes it impossible; there seems to be a large amount of blending of those two concepts when it comes to arguments on the forums. I can't speak for everyone, but at least as far as I can tell, the dissenting side is not saying, "no non-hyur / elezen dragons ever ever ever, go die if you think otherwise," they're just saying, "there are some real, noticeable, tangible road-blocks in this concept that you should take care to navigate." To go back to the previously-mentioned language of Selling It, or coming up with a Good Excuse, what we're trying to get across is that acknowledging road blocks can make your sales pitch better. Things aren't discredited immediately because there just so happens to be an interpretation or evidence to the contrary, there are ways to work around this. No one is here to throw tomatoes and shut down character concepts. We're here to try and make said concepts more solid, which in turn makes things easier for people who come later and want to know how to navigate a similar path. It might sound weird, but we're not seeking to sink ships here. If anything, we're testing the hulls to make sure they're as unsinkable as possible.

Well, yes, if you're speculating openly, it is. That's the danger of speculation that I was pointing out earlier on.

I'm sorry, this is really rather silly. You're arguing that Ishgardians, long before their much more troubled times post Calamity, hired outsiders to guard almost all of Coerthas Western Highlands? You're welcome to speculate that is the case, but you don't have any ground to stand on claiming that speculation is as equally supported as speculation that Ishgardian soldiers are guarding Ishgardian territory. Perhaps I'm confused; how many gate guards that fit the bill are there? I thought we were talking about the picture of just the one.

Any explanation for or against is speculation. Saying that they're integrated into Ishgardian society because they're a gatewarden is speculation. Saying that they're not and could be hired help or contracted or otherwise is also speculation. Neither speculation is more valid than the other, so no one has an explanation for it.

To be honest, this seems to be just as speculative as anything else that's been stated in this thread. Dravania is open territory, with more than one point of access. Anyone could have gotten in there, and Q'yantaa is not only heavily implied as being new to the camp in the quest text... "Among many other facts, you learn that the prospect of a quick fortune brings many inexperienced hunters to Tailfeather in hopes of joining in on the lucrative chocobo hunting trade. He introduces you to Q'yantaa, a young Miqo'te who wishes to fill her pockets in the Dravanian forelands." ...She is also actually stated to be new to the area by Loupard, the head hunter: "'Course, you can't forget those that're just here for a quick bucketful of gil--chasin' the gold chocobo, so to speak. The promise of riches brings new blood from all over Eorzea... Ain't that right, Q'yantaa?" Additionally, just because there are miqo'te in Coerthas does not mean that they would be readily accepted in Ishgardian society, or that they are within that society at all. L'khonebb could have easily made their way into the city to work for the Ironworks installation there by Cid, or merely came after the gates opened. If someone snuck into Ishgard, regardless of their race, it's very unlikely that they would be taught an art considered to be the holy dragon-slaying ways of the Forefathers. We also have no idea when that Miqo'te snuck in, so I'm not convinced they're relevant to the point being made in the first place. Also, no information has been provided on those other miqo'te but pictures. They could be anything as it stands; traders in the area, hired help, hunters, we don't actually know. Ishgard was still closed at that point, so I doubt that they were moving in and out if they weren't part of the culture already. Culturally-speaking, even if a miqo'te family had been established there for generations, it seems more likely that they would be considered foreigners anyway because they have an appearance that does not match anything else seen in the country. Lastly, assuming that things Could Be So seems a little shaky, because it opens up all sorts of directions that don't have much grounding; I think this is part of the reason why people are hesitant to accept speculation in general. It Could Be So that people can come from kingdoms not mentioned in the Lore, there's nothing there that states that those places don't exist. It Could Be So that your character could be an Allagan android in the shape of a hyur, the Lore doesn't explicitly state that that's impossible. It Could Be So that your character found and now has use of an Allagan spaceship, they built a moon after all. So the problem arises that if we think about What Could Be So, we open up a whole boatload of other tangents ranging from the Actually Plausible to the Totally Ridiculous, and then the Lore can get even more messy than it already is. Choosing where the line stops when it comes to assumptions can become practically impossible, and that's just not something that a lot of people are willing to deal with. There's also the problem that anything that can be assumed to be one way, can easily be assumed to be the opposite, which leads us to the current position that we are in now. I don't raise a fuss over that sort of thing if it comes up in RP, because I'll roll with it with minimal issue on a personal level. But for the sake of organized discussions such as this, where we're trying to forge a deeper understanding of the lore, a distinction regarding when the assumptions start and stop is important, because it forms the basis for further argumentation. Also, that far east Miqo'te has a standard Eorzean name from the S-tribe. It's likely she's just a trader that does business with Domans, or sailors from that area.

Have a Good Excuse is the game here. Personally, I wouldn't do it, especially since: but it's entirely possible to just be a Lancer, or maybe pay someone from Ishgard for training in everything except what's in the spoiler box. The game then becomes "why would they train YOU," however, so it's still risky business. Speaking to your Spoiler:

Personally I think it's okay to question whatever you want. I don't think questioning something makes you a horrible person, or otherwise awful. It's entirely possible that they're questioning for the sake of good intentions. If someone shuts you out of their life for the sake of a question, then maybe they're not the best, but when handled alright, I think it's fine. Personally, I'd question it if I were asked about it, but I wouldn't shut anyone out over it. I feel like we might be jumping on the "all questions are bad" train a little too quickly.

Those are fine. But I think usually when people talk about non-Elezen / Hyur dragoons, they're talking about "I jump around and have a lance and the spiky armor and Dragon Magic" sort of Dragoon. Which is riskier. Technically anyone can be a "Dragoon" title-wise if they bring proof that they killed a dragon to officials in Ishgard.

Have a Good Excuse is the game here. Personally, I wouldn't do it, especially since: but it's entirely possible to just be a Lancer, or maybe pay someone from Ishgard for training in everything except what's in the spoiler box. The game then becomes "why would they train YOU," however, so it's still risky business.

Lots of people like it, I usually don't. What I've seen described in the OP as Melancholy seems more along the lines of Tragedy to me. I can do a Melancholy story, I can even do a Serious one, but Tragedy, not really my sort of something. Happiness, whimsy, and misadventures are my favorite things. It's also worth noting that all the scenarios mentioned in the OP can be done with touches of happiness and whimsy as well. We call that approach Dark Humor. So it's really more complicated than put forth anyway, I believe.

As for Hyur in Ishgard, the city was founded by Elezen but I do not have the time at which more Hyur began to make there way there. Culturally I think it is agreed upon that Hyur are accepted, though still looked down on socially/politically. I don't know if they're particularly looked down upon, but they don't have that much political power. There are a lot of humans in the city, however, and based on their various locations throughout both Foundation and the Pillars, as well as their varying styles of dress, they definitely occupy positions going from the poor, to the wealthy merchant-class. They are second-citizens in the sense that they aren't allowed to have any political power (all positions of great political importance are held firmly by Elezen), but I don't think we have any examples of them experiencing any great amount of discrimination, at least not from what I've seen.

I'm sorry about that title you guys. It was right there. I had to take it. I am so, so sorry. As many of us now know, the Rhalgr Event was an awesome A+ smash. One of the interesting things that I noticed, however, was that we had a lot of Monks come out. That, along with a little bit of after-RP with some other folks got me thinking. What if we established a network? At the moment I'm not sure how formal it would be, but I think it would be an excellent outlet for people that want to see more in that vein. Plus, we also have a lot of people that are looking for a way to make the jump from Pugilism to Monkness for their characters. I think this would be a great way to connect those that are looking for that, with those that are looking for people to teach. Combine that with ritual sessions and communal sparring, and we could have something cool going on. Maybe even Some Plot once in a while. I don't have any details figured out, since this idea only just came to me a while ago. I think this would be an interesting way to foster more Monk RP though, and I'm sure we have more than enough people in that interest group to make something work.

I will be coming to observe the skill and technique with which the contestants will be using to artfully crush their melons, and the finely crafted tools with which they will do so. Yes.

10/10 would Rhalgr again. Doing this again when we get our Mhigo Xpac? I THINK SO.

Are y'all ready to RHALGR???

I don't think they ever will, unfortunately. Which means that no new player is ever going to see the likes of Castrum Meridianum or The Praetorium as they were originally intended. Not that they were super difficult, of course, but you can completely ignore mechanics for the most part these days due to how poorly they scale. Compare it to the likes of The Vault and it's disappointing. The Vault scales brilliantly - the last boss is still a threat since even with better gear you can still count on dying if you mess up even once given how intense the fight can be. Thankfully it wasn't made easier - I was a tad worried that it would be, especially given what happened to Steps of Faith. Due to the way that gear is scaled, I feel as if the final fights for 3.0 are going to be just as obsolete as the 2.0 content come 4.0. It's the result of gear scaling, and people are going to want better gear for 4.0 content in order to maintain some sense of progression, especially with the lack of a level-cap increase. It's become rather accepted now that the endgame gear treadmill is XIV's choice of progression, and as long as that continues with future expansions, previous content is going to get easier and easier unless SE finds a way to rework their scaling system.

You're spelling Highlander wrong, in case you didn't notice.

People are people and should be thought of as people first. Instead of thinking about how much of an Au Ra your Au Ra is, think about what sort of person you want them to be, and what sorts of stories you want them to fit into. Once you have a steady basis for this, then the rest of their identity (being an Au Ra, being a Female, whatever) should be slotted in in ways that don't interfere with your core concept. Those two facets of their identity may change their outlook and the way that they behave, for example, but their core concept should still be intact regardless. If you think too much in terms of "my character needs to be first and second," then you'll get so caught up in terms of making them seem to be those two things that you'll end up not knowing what you want to do with the character in the first place. Those two things are secondary; I like to say that any solid character concept can be re-purposed to be played by just about anything; a "skilled, wise-cracking treasure hunter" can be Indiana Jones, Lara Croft, or a Genderless Slug from Outer-Space, if that's what your story calls for. So think of a solid grounding first, if you have one, and then build around what they are from there. Don't let whatever identity they have be the primary jumping-off point for their creation, or you're going to have a hard time, like you are right now.

Um, no. No other human has control over the function of my bladder, thank you. They could tackle me, taze me, etc, but they literally can't stop me from exercising bodily functions, nor can they inhibit the effect of gravity upon the results. The sidewalk got wet. Sorry. Regarding the rest, I feel at this point that you may be arguing for the sake of arguing, and I'm going to disengage from that. It's unproductive. Then in that case, that would fall under the category of Able, which I outlined in the second part of my post. When Morality is removed, you are Allowed to pee on the sidwalk, because you are physically Able to do so. So, the answer in that scenario would be Yes, you are Physically Allowed to pee on the sidewalk, though it may not be Socially Acceptable. I expressed such a little further down after the portion that you quoted. Also, I never argue solely for the sake of argument. I argue for the sake of increased understanding regarding people's motives and outlooks on the way they conduct themselves. As I've stated beforehand, I don't necessarily morally agree with everything that I'm stating. The reason why I am arguing it nonetheless is that we can achieve a greater amount of communal cohesion and understanding by recognizing the reasons why someone may choose to do something, or what they may be thinking when they do something, regardless of whether or not one agrees. The end goal, at least for me, is to have someone think "huh, here's a few reasons why someone might not want me to intrude on their RP despite being in public, maybe I can use my new understanding to see where they're coming from next time I'm in this situation," instead of blacklisting them outright because of an initial disagreement. And to be honest, I actually kind of find the accusation that I'm only arguing for the sake of arguing or being confrontational a little on the rude side.

I would argue that neither is going beyond their rights in the game, because it is not a binary situation. It is one person's right to overhear something in a public channel. It is another person's right to ignore that fact. Neither has the ability to stop the other from doing either action. Additionally, neither is able to force the other to acknowledge their action. To distill the answer, yes, Alice and Jimmy are perfectly fine to continue their scene, and ignore Steel. In addition, Steel is perfectly fine to listen in on the conversation, and attempt to interact. However, neither party is able to make the other conform to their interpretation of events. Whether or not Alice and Jimmy should have or should not have picked a private location is subjective, and therefore inarguable on any grounds that is removed from a moral background. Where does this leave us? I don't know, but that's physically the way that things work.

Inability to prevent someone from doing a thing doesn't make that thing allowed or justifiable. One can't prevent me from peeing on the sidewalk, but in general most modern societies agree that's not permissible (and moreso than being socially unacceptable, being caught in the act may warrant arrest). By your own words earlier, people who make such RP faux pas may not care if they get blacklisted, and so that's no punishment to them, and therefore they have no deterrent at all. Okay. So what if a person doesn't care if they get arrested, is it okay for them to just go around peeing on sidewalks to their heart's content? Or is it still not acceptable behavior, regardless of their shrug toward consequence? There are many ways you can be stopped from peeing on the sidewalk. Tackled by a passerby, tazed by a police officer, having your urine caught by a cup, who knows. The point is that just about any action done in meatspace can be stopped through physical interference. Not the case in Roleplay, where any interference at all has to go through the person being interfered with, who then makes the choice of whether or not they want to go with it or not. Therefore, this situation would be more akin to someone coming up and asking you whether you would allow them to stop you from peeing on the sidewalk, at which point you decide yes, no, or to ignore them. And for the sake of addressing how things work In-Game, Yes, the inability to stop someone from doing something makes it an Allowed practice. There's nothing in the game's terms of service saying that it isn't allowed, and there's no way that we can stop it from being allowed on our own terms, therefore meaning that, for all intents and purposes, it is allowed. When we speak about what is Allowed, there are two possible ways in which it could be viewed. We can view it in terms of a social standpoint, where people set the rules of what is and isn't allowed to be done, with those rules being enforced in a capable way that actually affects people's decisions. The alternate is what people can and cannot do in a purely physical sense, moral and ethical decisions aside. Peeing on the sidewalk isn't acceptable behavior from the moral standpoint of most people. If someone doesn't care about the consequences of peeing on the sidewalk, and no one is around to stop them, then yes, they're allowed, or able, to pee on the sidewalk. Society and others around them might not agree, and the rules of said society might say that someone is then allowed to take them to jail for it afterwards, but there is no hard and fast rule embedded in the fabric of reality that says "under no circumstances can you pee on this sidewalk." This is not the case in MMOs, in which there are hard and fast rules encoded into the basis of our virtual reality that stop us from interfering with people that are doing certain things. If we were able to suddenly stop people that are peeing on the sidewalk anywhere, from any place, then logically peeing on the sidewalk would not be allowed, because you physically cannot do it. Regarding your earlier example about events in public parks: That's actually not how things work, either legally, or in terms of public acceptance. If someone has a birthday party in a public park, you are not allowed to take their privately paid-for cake and eat their privately paid-for food just because they are holding the party in a public location. You are allowed to sit at the park bench they're using, because that is public property, but all the things that make the event an event, balloons, people, food, gifts, etcetera, are off-limits to you both legally and morally unless they allow you to partake. In real life, you could go ahead and take their food and their balloons anyway, because you have the physical ability to do so. In MMO Roleplay, this is not the case. You have no physical ability to do anything without approval. For the sake of Simplicity, let's divide the two parts of Allowed into two different words. Socially Acceptable, meaning what is permitted by a group, and is therefore subjective and flexible, and Able, which is physical, absolute, and refers to the Ability to Do. It is not Socially Acceptable to pee on the sidewalk, but I am nonetheless Able to do so. The party that determines what is Socially Acceptable is the one that is overseeing a closed system. This could be a society, a country, a guild, a game environment, and many other things. We, the Players, do not have control over the Game Environment. The Developers and the Game Masters are the only ones that do so. Their "Laws," the Terms of Service, do not prohibit having a private conversation in a public channel. Additionally, the World of the Game does not prohibit this. In the eyes of the Overseeing Party, it is therefore Socially Acceptable, and within the system of the Game, you are Able to do so. In both systems, therefore, they are Allowed. We the players are not the governing body of the game's overall system (i.e. public environments and channels), and are therefore unable to enforce what we may deem to be Socially Acceptable in those contexts. We are, however, able to enforce such in smaller groups, such as Friend Groups, Linkshells, and Free Companies. Although they are Able to do something, just as they are in the game's overall environment, we may not deem it Socially Acceptable, and remove them from our controlled environment as a result. Within other controlled systems, however, it may be deemed as being Socially Acceptable, and therefore tolerated by the members of that group. The conclusion that we come to, therefore, is that in the eyes of the Governing Body in which all systems are contained within the premise of this game, having private conversations in public places is both Socially Acceptable and something that you are Able to do. This is true, because they have absolute, inalienable control over both the Terms of Service, and the World of the Game. Therefore, as long as someone pays to access this system, they have the Right to engage in that activity. We may shut them out from our smaller, controlled areas as a result, but they are nonetheless within their overall rights to do what it is they are doing.