Too much woman to handle?

[Dogberry]

As opposed to when they "caved in" and gave us the female roegadyns we love so much?

I don't know what exactly their mindset was when they added them, but the fact was that there was an obvious hole there and there was no existing metric to suggest that they would be unpopular so they added them as they are now.

 

 

This history was that people asked for them a lot. And male miqo'te.

[Flashhelix]

not tiny:

 

tiny:

 

the weebs have spoken

[Warren Castille]

See, there's this thing called 'integrity' that I happen to value above and beyond mere profit motives and is especially applicable to fictional universes with an internal logic and history that should, hopefully, presumably make sense once everything is all put together, and hewing towards marketing-directed designs goes fully against that particular value of mine. Hence, I consider caving into marketing and the almighty dollar exactly that.

 

It's a damn good thing I don't run the company! As you all say, they are a business being run as a business, so they'll do whatever they have to to keep the company afloat. As a customer, I don't have to share any of those values whatsoever, and frankly I don't care about the justifications that people use to apologize for the company's decisions.

 

There's an interview where Yoshi admits that the Au Ra design was finalized prior to 2.2. Stop undermining the director's artistic integrity by thinking it was purely a business decision. If you are so offended, I implore you to vote with your wallet.

 

Your integrity has absolutely no volume in this discussion. SE made the decision, and by placing yourself on a pedestal above them by admonishing their decision to make what they wanted to, you're not doing anything constructive or productive.

[Berrod Armstrong]

Giving people what they want -- people who are paying for the product, mind you, is not 'caving in'. When the ice cream vendor gives me the rainbow sprinkles I asked for on my sundae, they aren't 'caving in'. They're rendering me a service. 

Not to mention, we have options. You can be a cat-girl. You can be a potato girl. You can be a little human-chan, a big human-chan, or run around with the body of a Williams sister. Adding petite dragon-succubus-chan to that as well, things are looking pretty decent!

 

Edit: I forgot gangly long-necked-chan!

See, there's this thing called 'integrity' that I happen to value above and beyond mere profit motives and is especially applicable to fictional universes with an internal logic and history that should, hopefully, presumably make sense once everything is all put together, and hewing towards marketing-directed designs goes fully against that particular value of mine. Hence, I consider caving into marketing and the almighty dollar exactly that.

 

It's a damn good thing I don't run the company! As you all say, they are a business being run as a business, so they'll do whatever they have to to keep the company afloat. As a customer, I don't have to share any of those values whatsoever, and frankly I don't care about the justifications that people use to apologize for the company's decisions.

This view is -- my apologies -- completely laughable and very idealistically naiive -- not to mention TERRIBLE for any business in particular. I agree, it really IS a good thing you don't run the company! Hewing toward marketing directed designs is just one of the ways they actually keep the game in existence. Not to mention that there is a variety of designs (that fits the world lore, since the 'bestial' races are largely unplayable factions) available for us to choose from. 

 

I don't know what's being read or seen here, but nobody's apologizing for Square's decisions. Applauding them, understanding them, running with them, sure. The game is giving most of us what we want! For those of us who aren't getting what we want, there are other options out there, and avenues where we can voice our desires in the hopes that they'll be catered to. 

 

I won't yell at my ice cream vendor about integrity if all he has is rainbow sprinkles. I mean, only one kid in the whole town likes the chocolate ones. But who knows, if that kid asks nicely and often enough, the vendor might stock a container of chocolate sprinkles just for them someday.

[Aya]

There was never really any doubt as to why they made the Au Ra females so ridiculous, but it is disappointing to learn that they considered a more reasonable take and declined because of their view of what the player base would want.

 

I disagree that making the new female race conventionally attractive is "giving the player base what it wants", in the sense that there already are conventionally attractive female options.  It was a decision made because they want Au Ra females to be popular with that portion of the player base.  That's really a bit of a different decision.  They could have designed Au Ra in line with their original intent without it being bad customer service, and without reducing players' options.

 

I'm not saying its a good, or a bad one (though I do seem to recall saying early on that I assumed it would be a good decision using SE's own criteria), I'm just pointing out that its not so simple.

[Warren Castille]

sprinkles

 

They're called "jimmies" dammit.

[Flashhelix]

There was never really any doubt as to why they made the Au Ra females so ridiculous, but it is disappointing to learn that they considered a more reasonable take and declined because of their view of what the player base would want.

 

I disagree that making the new female race conventionally attractive is "giving the player base what it wants", in the sense that there already are conventionally attractive female options.  It was a decision made because they want Au Ra females to be popular with that portion of the player base.  That's really a bit of a different decision.  They could have designed Au Ra in line with their original intent without it being bad customer service, and without reducing players' options.

 

I'm not saying its a good, or a bad one (though I do seem to recall saying early on that I assumed it would be a good decision using SE's own criteria), I'm just pointing out that its not so simple.

 

But then how is giving the majority another option not preferable, from a business standpoint at least?

[Brynhilde]

 

The trick is knowing where to find the Highlander soft side. We all have 'em.

 

 

Also

 

 

 

[Iex]

Think people should remember this is a Japanese game therefore will have an aesthetic of that region of the world for their entertainment. (See movies, cartoons/anime, other games, toys, and so on.) Not to mention the US is a 'secondary' market so data from those servers would likely be considered secondary to data from Japanese servers. Before 2.0 there was not even female Highlander or Roegadyn to be played. (Nor Miqo'te males.)

 

The smaller and softer female vs Male is a consistent trope for all the races except Lalafell which fall into the "cute race" trope. Even the "amazon" Roegadyn females can be dropped short enough to be confused with Highlanders. Female character models actually have the largest height change allowance (Roegadyn females being the cap of that for now).

 

Really... we don't know exactly how different the Au Ra will be until the benchmark drops. So I don't think they caved to much of anything other than probably going to Idea #56049 out of 100000 because it looks like it will be popular. I doubt they scrapped initial designs for numbers, I bet the current look was one of the many designs presented before fan data.

 

Now going into more than aesthetics, what makes the character quality is not the looks. Do people love the Admiral because "amazon woman" or because she is just damn awesome in every thing else. Edda was cute and petite but she obviously was not someone to be messed with, deluded as she was.  Y'stola is 'cute' but by far one of the most imposing members of the scions. Yda honestly is the 'muscle' of the scions, while not the brightest (well.. honestly I think she just pretends to be foolish to banter with her Lalafell bud.)

 

Of course there are examples of more "Amazonian women" such as a certain axe wielding scholar Roegadyn or the Gladiator in the Hildy lines, but both of their 'physical traits' get sidelined by the actual characters.

 

Most of the Archetypes that color our perspective on their physical traits come more from how the characters are played rather than their physical traits. We have so many 'cute lalafell' we end up not being able to take them seriously, which is why ones that don't behave always cute are well loved. We have so many ... uh... Catbois and Catgirls we end up seeing the whole race as those tropes rather than the way they are presented in the game. A lot of midlander females are soft spoken and shy so we end up seeing them as frail. Sadly, this trend is why folks are seeing Au Ra as frail and cute despite all the evidence we have so far is they are anything but that. Yay, for stereotypes and tropes!

 

(Also the inverse exists everyone expects Roegadyn and Highlanders to be brutal fighters etc.)

 

Mind you... I am not denying folks are attracted to certain body types. Just was discussing other aspects of like or dislike of races other than how warm folks get down there.

[Aya]

But then how is giving the majority another option not preferable, from a business standpoint at least?

I don't recall ever suggesting it was a bad idea for SE.  I, in fact, recall just moments ago in a post you quoted, saying that I exactly wasn't doing that!

 

For personal reasons I'd rather see the female Au Ra be like the male Au Ra.  I find what they have done to be rather demeaning.  Not a big deal, in the grand scheme of things, and perhaps still their best business decision. Nonetheless a disappointment to this player, that's my personal judgement and that's all I can offer.

[Warren Castille]

There was never really any doubt as to why they made the Au Ra females so ridiculous, but it is disappointing to learn that they considered a more reasonable take and declined because of their view of what the player base would want.

 

I disagree that making the new female race conventionally attractive is "giving the player base what it wants", in the sense that there already are conventionally attractive female options.  It was a decision made because they want Au Ra females to be popular with that portion of the player base.  That's really a bit of a different decision.  They could have designed Au Ra in line with their original intent without it being bad customer service, and without reducing players' options.

 

I'm not saying its a good, or a bad one (though I do seem to recall saying early on that I assumed it would be a good decision using SE's own criteria), I'm just pointing out that its not so simple.

 

"When we were considering the options, there were mentions of making female Au Ra more stocky and buff. However the data that's been complied about what race and gender are being used, indicate that Hyur Highlander females and Roegadyn females are not used by very many players. We definitely took that into consideration when finalizing the design of female Au Ra."

 

It's not as if they finished a design of lizard-chan and then looked at their notes and scratched it out. Ultimately, we're dealing with a matter of opinions - might a more "traditional" dragon race have been the thing people craved in light of not wanting to play roe or femlanders? Maybe, but there's nothing wrong with looking at what does work as a design and erring on the side of caution in regards to your new one. I imagine some people would be very upset if they made a dragon race that 2% of the population switched to because it looked more bestial than, say, the miqo'te do when compared to an actual feline.

[Verad]

See, there's this thing called 'integrity' that I happen to value above and beyond mere profit motives and is especially applicable to fictional universes with an internal logic and history that should, hopefully, presumably make sense once everything is all put together, and hewing towards marketing-directed designs goes fully against that particular value of mine. Hence, I consider caving into marketing and the almighty dollar exactly that.

 

It's a damn good thing I don't run the company! As you all say, they are a business being run as a business, so they'll do whatever they have to to keep the company afloat. As a customer, I don't have to share any of those values whatsoever, and frankly I don't care about the justifications that people use to apologize for the company's decisions.

 

You have an ideology. You may have integrity with regards to following this ideology, but integrity by itself doesn't point to much of anything.

 

I get it, really. It would be much better if the Au Ra were used to help provide a transformative, progressive model of character design in verisimilitude by having non-standard, non-idealized body types. I'm sorry that didn't happen.

[Flickering Ember]

There will be naysayers no matter what side they went with. Au Ra were a highly anticipated race, it was in everyones' best interests that they make bother genders as appealing as possible to as many people as possible.

 

Anyways, the height/build discrepancy is quite interesting in a way. It's reminiscent of certain types of animals/mammals and insects out there.

 

I was a little hesitant to talk more about Au Ra since this thread isn't really about them....But I'll take a moment to share a thought that hopefully doesn't make the thread go too off-topic.

 

Interestingly, female roegadyn are the only gender/race with a height min/max higher than 4-5 inches. Female roegadyn have an entire FOOT in height range. While I love thick, muscled, badass women, I was anticipating Au Ra for their dragon/reptilian themes. I don't mind their doe-eyed looks as much as I do their height difference. I know some folks like it but I don't. They look like children next to the men. It's the same reason why some folks don't like lalafells pairing with other races.

 

However, the fact that female roegadyns have such a huge height range gives me hope for a tall female Au Ra. So pumped for Benchmark! (And a big height range would give a little something for everyone too! )

 

 Why exactly should all of the genders in each race conform to a similar height criteria? It makes the Au Ra more different and unique that way.

 

 

I agree that not all races should need to have similar height ratios or be devoid of sexual dismorphism. However, I don't know if I would say Au Ra are 'unique' in that way. I think roegadyns actually already have A LOT of sexual dimorphism. I mean, yeah sure, female roegadyns are muscular but compared to a male roegadyn they are actually very, very small in build. The sexual dimorphism is already here with roegadyns.

 

I think it would be unique if the female Au Ra were the larger ones and the male Au Ra the smaller ones. (Which also exists in nature with several species having larger females) Our MMO backgrounds are probably different; in the MMOs I am used to...pretty much all the races were already highly dimorphic so for me, personally, it's not new or unique based on my background.

[Flashhelix]

It's a damn good thing I don't run the company!

 

You're right about that, if the higher-ups at SE valued "integrity" over making a profit we'd all be playing Guild Wars 2 right now

[Wymsical]

Dogberry touched on this but to reiterate; we didn't have female Roegadyn, female Highlanders or male Miqo'te before and now we have more choices for their addition. Variety that they didn't have to add and that is certainly welcome. Actually, something that might make players of the first two (and everyone) happier is having customization options for the vanilla races expanded. We know they're trying for different and more varied options on Au Ra, so why not an update to the old races to give them similarly numerous choices? Better variety would probably bring some people back to the vanilla races as well.

[Dogberry]

 

The trick is knowing where to find the Highlander soft side. We all have 'em.

 

 

Also

 

 

 

 

Pfft! BAHAHAHAHAHA!

[Aya]

I get it, really. It would be much better if the Au Ra were used to help provide a transformative, progressive model of character design in verisimilitude by having non-standard, non-idealized body types. I'm sorry that didn't happen.

What bothers me is the degree of sexual dimorphism introduced simply to appeal to conventional notions of attractiveness: Males can be beastly.  Females cannot.

 

I don't care for that. The style of the race should make sense as a holistic whole.  It doesn't, and the reason is because they were afraid the player base would reject a beastly female.  I don't see a positive in this, though it is not surprising.

[Brynhilde]

What's interesting about the Au Ra is that they came about directly as the result of a poll SE held, in which the player base voted that they wanted a more 'bestial'-type race.

 

I guess we got that with the male Au Ra. But I definitely understand the frustration about female Au Ra. To me, they just look like a half-assed job. Male Au Ra look fairly unique; dark, broody and badass. But the females, to me, look like Midlander #2 with little horns stuck on.

 

I'm waiting to see the 'darker, more demonic' type Au Ra fem SE has promised, but I'm not getting my hopes up.

[Flashhelix]

where's my roe armpit hair SE you fascists

[Flickering Ember]

Think people should remember this is a Japanese game therefore will have an aesthetic of that region of the world for their entertainment. (See movies, cartoons/anime, other games, toys, and so on.) Not to mention the US is a 'secondary' market so data from those servers would likely be considered secondary to data from Japanese servers. Before 2.0 there was not even female Highlander or Roegadyn to be played. (Nor Miqo'te males.)

 

The smaller and softer female vs Male is a consistent trope for all the races except Lalafell which fall into the "cute race" trope. Even the "amazon" Roegadyn females can be dropped short enough to be confused with Highlanders. Female character models actually have the largest height change allowance (Roegadyn females being the cap of that for now).

 

Dogberry touched on this but to reiterate; we didn't have female Roegadyn, female Highlanders or male Miqo'te before and now we have more choices for their addition. Variety that they didn't have to add and that is certainly welcome. Actually, something that might make players of the first two (and everyone) happier is having customization options for the vanilla races expanded. We know they're trying for different and more varied options on Au Ra, so why not an update to the old races to give them similarly numerous choices? Better variety would probably bring some people back to the vanilla races as well.

 

 

Yeah, to be very honest, if they had not introduced female roegadyns, I would not be playing this game. I don't really like the overly pretty aesthetics Japanese RPGs tend to employ. I prefer some grit. Even with roegadyn females, the race selection is pretty weak for a RPer who prefers a more....D&D like selection of races. I am definitely NOT the target demographic for this game. I'm not that much of an anime fan except for a few that really stand out. (Points at avatar, Ranma 1/2 )

 

This game is amazing which is ultimately why I am here despite not liking the aesthetic too much. But I gotta love my character or I won't be able to get into a MMO no matter how awesome it is.

 

Fortunately, I really like female roegadyns, so. :3

[Warren Castille]

I get it, really. It would be much better if the Au Ra were used to help provide a transformative, progressive model of character design in verisimilitude by having non-standard, non-idealized body types. I'm sorry that didn't happen.

What bothers me is the degree of sexual dimorphism introduced simply to appeal to conventional notions of attractiveness: Males can be beastly.  Females cannot.

 

I don't care for that. The style of the race should make sense as a holistic whole.  It doesn't, and the reason is because they were afraid the player base would reject a beastly female.  I don't see a positive in this, though it is not surprising.

 

Again, the reason they were afraid of that was because the less-traditional races (Roe female, Highlander Female) aren't played nearly as much as the male equivalent. The only people we can be frustrated with regarding SE's decision is the rest of the playerbase (and ourselves, if we don't have femroe or femlander alts).

[Dogberry]

where's my roe armpit hair SE you fascists

 

How about ANY BODY HAIR AT ALL?! I want to look like I'm wearing a sweater when I unequip my chest slot!

[Berrod Armstrong]

where's my roe armpit hair SE you fascists

A...actually I wouldn't mind body hair options...

[Flashhelix]

 

not to mention that people associate "bestial" with "big and burly" and not "like an animal", female Au Ra are very bestial, they're just not burly or big

[Brynhilde]

where's my roe armpit hair SE you fascists

 

How about ANY BODY HAIR AT ALL?! I want to look like I'm wearing a sweater when I unequip my chest slot!

 

Y-yes pls...

 

Why don't dudes get beard options at the Aesthetician!?