Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice?

[Aaron]

Simple.

 

Leveling PLD right, I get to level 40 then bam. I wanna suddenly go AST. So they put me at 30 and I skip 30 levels of tutorial.

 

"What are all these buttons what do I do omg help help!"

 

Sure you can learn by fucking around with the tips but that's just begging to be kicked from raids.

 

That's why I said "relevant" class. Have the requirement be leveling a specific role to 30/40, and then you can ensure that the player has at least a basic understanding of their role that they can then apply to learning the nuances of their new job, just like they would be learning the nuances of the job they would've been unlocking normally.

 

Leveling PLD/WAR to 30/40 would unlock DRK. Leveling WHM/SCH would let you get AST. Leveling DPS (or even just BRD!) would get you MCH.

 

It's not a perfect fix, of course. The best way would've had base classes for all three of the new jobs, then you could pick them up at a nice low level like ROG and then learn everything from level 1.

 

Because, really, what's so different between your example and someone leveling PLD to 50 to get the shorter queues, picking up MCH and then running around going "What are all these buttons what do I do omg help help!"? Obviously leveling the new jobs from 30 to cap is supposed to be a tutorial in and of itself, so why be stuck doing 150% of the tutorial?

Ah, I missed the relevant part. Sorry.

 

I'm still not bought on that but you sound good enough about it I think it could probably work. I dunno.

[Telluride]

 

Sure you can learn by fucking around with the tips but that's just begging to be kicked from raids.

 

Your perspective is pretty clear from this choice, here.

 

The kind of people who are unhappy about some of this stuff we're talking about are people who don't really CARE about the raids and whether they wanna get kicked from them.

 

They want the flyers and the Au Ra and the classes that are being advertised to them. If you can find me a disclaimer in any of the theatrical, and advertising trailers, that says, "Disclaimer: Players must have completed all 2.55 story content to take advantage of new content.", please post it, because it is relevant. If such a thing exists, it's only going to help your argument. If it only exists in forums, and not in any actual promotional content, then SE is using the new content as a carrot, and slogging though Steps, Etc, is the stick, and that's an argument I am presenting.

 

And if the only people who are worth catering to are people who are 1337 r41d0rz, then such a game is not a place I wanna be. It hasn't been that so far, and I'd really not like to see it become that.

 

If we're gonna resent new people for wanting content they were led to think they were paying for, then your beef is with SE for not being more direct in their promotional materials, not with us. SE should only be allowed to advertise to people who "worked for it", and curse those filthy casuals who were led to believe that they can has griffn, plz.

[Aaron]

Going from a gaming standpoint. You should have at least decent knowledge of any class before you go playing with new toys. Its simple.

 

Lore-wise, I think only two of them are significantly tied to Ishgard and even then, it would not at all be unusual for NPCs to venture out into the world to lure in the interested adventurer or whatever.

 

As for the gaming point quoted above... I disagree fundamentally. I do not need to level other classes in order to understand how they work, and I don't need to level other classes in order to understand how the one(s) I do want to play works.

If they wanted a npc to just wander out Ishgard pre HW to show the WoL a great sword don't you think it'd have been done already? We wouldn't even be having this discussion then.

 

The second part sounds like a personal problem which I won't touch.

[Aaron]

 

Sure you can learn by fucking around with the tips but that's just begging to be kicked from raids.

 

Your perspective is pretty clear from this choice, here.

 

The kind of people who are unhappy about some of this stuff we're talking about are people who don't really CARE about the raids and whether they wanna get kicked from them.

 

They want the flyers and the Au Ra and the classes that are being advertised to them.  If you can find me a disclaimer in any of the theatrical, and advertising trailers, that says, "Disclaimer: Players must have completed all 2.55 story content to take advantage of new content.", please post it, because it is relevant.  If such a thing exists, it's only going to help your argument. If it only exists in forums, and not in any actual promotional content, then SE is using the new content as a carrot, and slogging though Steps, Etc, is the stick, and that's an argument I am presenting.

 

And if the only people who are worth catering to are people who are 1337 r41d0rz, then such a game is not a place I wanna be.  It hasn't been that so far, and I'd really not like to see it become that.

Funny you judged my perspective from one line. 

 

No, that was not my perspective or intent. That was a half added example I felt would get the sharpest point of the discussion. Whether you care about a raid or whatever or not is irrelevant. Odds are and I hate to sound like this honestly but other people don't care how you feel about a class. If you're keeping them from clearing they will kick you or abandon. The amount of endgamers far outweigh the causals and rpers.

 

Its not me being judgmental or anything. This is literally a fact. You will have to at one point do a raid before you hit HW

[Naunet]

If they wanted a npc to just wander out Ishgard pre HW to show the WoL a great sword don't you think it'd have been done already? We wouldn't even be having this discussion then.

 

The second part sounds like a personal problem which I won't touch.

 

Personal problem? o.0 What...

 

As for asking why a DRK/AST/MCH hasn't wandered out of Ishgard yet and using that as an excuse for why they shouldn't be around after the expansion... That's like asking why couldn't players make Death Knights in Burning Crusade.

[Aaron]

If they wanted a npc to just wander out Ishgard pre HW to show the WoL a great sword don't you think it'd have been done already? We wouldn't even be having this discussion then.

 

The second part sounds like a personal problem which I won't touch.

 

Personal problem? o.0 What...

 

As for asking why a DRK/AST/MCH hasn't wandered out of Ishgard yet and using that as an excuse for why they shouldn't be around after the expansion... That's like asking why couldn't players make Death Knights in Burning Crusade.

By personal problem I mean something I can't offer any advice or help on for fear you might take it the wrong way. I'd rather just leave you to it lol.

 

As for the second part. Well, there's a reason Ishgard was locked down. There's also a reason the game started off about swords and magick then developed into guns and technology.

 

The game runs on a timeline. The WoL enters at the beginning of it. From a timeline standpoint, the WoL at the beginning doesn't even know there's a pirate in Sastasha. Why would he along the way learn a DRK exists or even know guns are manufacturable when HW is way down the timeline?

[Telluride]

 

Odds are and I hate to sound like this honestly but other people don't care how you feel about a class. If you're keeping them from clearing they will kick you or abandon. The amount of endgamers far outweigh the causals and rpers.

 

Its not me being judgmental or anything. This is literally a fact. You will have to at one point do a raid before you hit HW

 

That is not yet 100% confirmed as a fact. The requirements for gear to do Steps might be met by offerings from new lvl50 quests, which are being solidly hinted at. There's another thread discussing this possibility, which is not yet answered. At this point, even before HW, you can complete the MSQ with dungeon gear or market-purchased gear, not raid gear.

 

Call that being nitpicky, but based on your above comment about being kicked out, it makes a massive difference. I am much less likely to be kicked from a dungeon than I am a raid in the example you cite.

 

Aaron, I can appreciate your perspective. You want people to Git Gud at this game. That's respectable. But I still hold that at least SOME of the stuff people are paying real cash to get in HW should be given to them when they get in. The Au Ra, and maybe at least a class to just toy with, and some other goodies, so they can feel good about giving SE money, and that is good for all of us. No dough, no new raids, and bored hardcore raiders.

[Naunet]

I'd have thought MMOers were good at suspension of disbelief. I never thought too hard when leveling a monk through old world content in WoW, or when rolling up an alt in Rift and starting out with one of the newer souls, or whathaveyou. Gameplay-story segregation. In FFXIV, your character's class isn't a deciding factor when it comes to how the MSQ plays out.

 

I'm still not sure what you mean by personal problem (or even to what you're referring), though it certainly sounds like a veiled insult.

[Aaron]

 

Odds are and I hate to sound like this honestly but other people don't care how you feel about a class. If you're keeping them from clearing they will kick you or abandon. The amount of endgamers far outweigh the causals and rpers.

 

Its not me being judgmental or anything. This is literally a fact. You will have to at one point do a raid before you hit HW

 

That is not yet 100% confirmed as a fact. The requirements for gear to do Steps might be met by offerings from new lvl50 quests, which are being solidly hinted at. There's another thread discussing this possibility, which is not yet answered. At this point, even before HW, you can complete the MSQ with dungeon gear or market-purchased gear, not raid gear.

 

Call that being nitpicky, but based on your above comment about being kicked out, it makes a massive difference. I am much less likely to be kicked from a dungeon than I am a raid in the example you cite.

You can still get kicked. The percentage is irrelevant. That's the point of me saying this. I wasn't even differentiating raids from dungeons I was using raid as a general term for instance.

 

I'm basically saying what everyone else is. Why would you want a bad tank in your party? Because they tell you they paid to get a DRK and ignore everything else? Would you not kick them? Granted you may try to teach them the mechanics (as would I) but judging from experience there are a lot more people who will kick or abandon before reteaching a new person something.

 

One of the reasons PF exists.

[Gegenji]

I'm still not bought on that but you sound good enough about it I think it could probably work. I dunno.

 

Haha, well, it's a start, I suppose. Basically, here is the whole issue as I see it in list form.

 

Leveling an Original Class/Job (~6 Steps)

- Pick the class you want at creation.

- Level it to 30, learning the basic skills.

- Level subclass to 15, leveling cross-classes (though often recommended)

- Do job quest

- Receive job you want.

- Level job to cap, learning the new skills as you get them.

 

 

Leveling a Ninja (~8 Steps)

- Pick a class you don't want at creation (preferably the subclass, Pugilist)

- Level unwanted class to 10.

- Do class quest to unlock Rogue.

- Level Rogue to 30, learning basic skills.

- Level subclass to 15, leveling cross-classes optional (still recommended)

- Do job quest

- Receive job you want

- Level job to cap, learning the new skills as you get them

 

Leveling HW Job (~10 Steps)

- Pick a class you don't want at creation (preferably a crossclass for job)

- Level unwanted class to 30.

- Level subclass for unwanted job to 15 (hopefully also a crossclass for job)

- Do job quest for job you don't want

- Level unwanted job to cap, learning skills that you will mostly be dumping anyway beyond basic concepts.

- Complete MSQ all the way through 2.55.

- Meet iLevel requirements to continue into Ishgard

- Do new job quest

- Receive job you want

- Level job to cap, learning an entirely new style in a 30-60 window.

 

You're progressively having to do more and more stuff, and spending more and more time in an irrelevant class or job, to get to your destination. At least with ROG it was only ten levels. With the new jobs, it's not only 50 levels (quite the difference from 10), but you also have to go through the entirety of the MSQ (ROG only required progression to travel to Limsa if you didn't start there).

 

Afterward, you can't even use the MSQ for free EXP like you could with ROG/NIN. You're stuck with whatever quests you skipped (if any), dungeon crawls, leve grinding, and FATE grinding. To finally get the job that you purchased the game and its expansion to play.

 

It's just unfair to the player.

[Aaron]

I'd have thought MMOers were good at suspension of disbelief. I never thought too hard when leveling a monk through old world content in WoW, or when rolling up an alt in Rift and starting out with one of the newer souls, or whathaveyou. Gameplay-story segregation. In FFXIV, your character's class isn't a deciding factor when it comes to how the MSQ plays out.

 

I'm still not sure what you mean by personal problem (or even to what you're referring), though it certainly sounds like a veiled insult.

It wasn't a insult, a personal problem is something a person doesn't like for personal reasons. I don't see how that could possibly be taken as a insult? Not like I said what you had a issue with was dumb or anything. You seemed to have a issue with the 1 - 50 grind of a class because you left pre 2.4 I basically said that was a personal issue you would get no comment from me on.

 

And its pretty clear this mmo runs on a tight timeline. Remember how you never heard a word about ninjas or Au Ra before 2.4? And we were still using tomes of mythology? Ishgard doing those times were xenophobic and locked down. AST didn't have what they will in HW, guns werent so easily made and Dark Knights stayed specifically in Ishgard.

[Aaron]

I'm still not bought on that but you sound good enough about it I think it could probably work. I dunno.

 

Haha, well, it's a start, I suppose. Basically, here is the whole issue as I see it in list form.

 

Leveling an Original Class/Job (~6 Steps)

- Pick the class you want at creation.

- Level it to 30, learning the basic skills.

- Level subclass to 15, leveling cross-classes (though often recommended)

- Do job quest

- Receive job you want.

- Level job to cap, learning the new skills as you get them.

 

 

Leveling a Ninja (~8 Steps)

- Pick a class you don't want at creation (preferably the subclass, Pugilist)

- Level unwanted class to 10.

- Do class quest to unlock Rogue.

- Level Rogue to 30, learning basic skills.

- Level subclass to 15, leveling cross-classes optional (still recommended)

- Do job quest

- Receive job you want

- Level job to cap, learning the new skills as you get them

 

Leveling HW Job (~10 Steps)

- Pick a class you don't want at creation (preferably a crossclass for job)

- Level unwanted class to 30.

- Level subclass for unwanted job to 15 (hopefully also a crossclass for job)

- Do job quest for job you don't want

- Level unwanted job to cap, learning skills that you will mostly be dumping anyway beyond basic concepts.

- Complete MSQ all the way through 2.55.

- Meet iLevel requirements to continue into Ishgard

- Do new job quest

- Receive job you want

- Level job to cap, learning an entirely new style in a 30-60 window.

 

You're progressively having to do more and more stuff, and spending more and more time in an irrelevant class or job, to get to your destination. At least with ROG it was only ten levels. With the new jobs, it's not only 50 levels (quite the difference from 10), but you also have to go through the entirety of the MSQ (ROG only required progression to travel to Limsa if you didn't start there).

 

Afterward, you can't even use the MSQ for free EXP like you could with ROG/NIN. You're stuck with whatever quests you skipped (if any), dungeon crawls, leve grinding, and FATE grinding. To finally get the job that you purchased the game and its expansion to play.

 

It's just unfair to the player.

Oh! I understand now. Yeah, that sounds like it'd be a great alternative. After the MSQ leveling is harder to do anyway lol

[Telluride]

I don't see how what I am suggesting breeds incompetent players. We still have some really bad players who manage to get into WoD all the time, and people who are darn near ilvl130 who still haven't figured out how to best play their class. The existing player base is not any smarter than any returning or new people, just more in the zone, to risk a pun.

 

It had been my hope that the new classes would be attainable at lvl 10, just like what we had, and thus learned the same way the others have. But, they're only available to people, now, who have progressed completely through the story and gotten to Ishgard. Are all these people competent? I see a lot of people getting kicked now.

 

If you gave new/returning folks a little playground in which to test flying, and the new stuff, a place we could ALL use just to enjoy a taste of the new stuff, what's wrong with that? It would give people incentive to "Git Gud" enough to learn the new/updated fundamentals, and still feel like they weren't being gated from so much.

 

Throw your casuals a bone, man. If you wanna keep 'em in the shallow end, put a few dragons and griffins and dark knight tutorials in there, and keep them HAPPY to be there, having fun, getting their money's worth, until they are ready to seize the BIG rewards, finish leveling, and fly "For Real" In ishgard, later.

 

PS: Party Finder sure as heck ain't no cure for bad players, either.

[Aaron]

I don't see how what I am suggesting breeds incompetent players.  We still have some really bad players who manage to get into WoD all the time, and people who are darn near ilvl130 who still haven't figured out how to best play their class.  The existing player base is not any smarter than any returning or new people, just more in the zone, to risk a pun.

 

It had been my hope that the new classes would be attainable at lvl 10, just like what we had, and thus learned the same way the others have. But, they're only available to people, now, who have progressed completely through the story and gotten to Ishgard. Are all these people competent? I see a lot of people getting kicked now.

 

If you gave new/returning folks a little playground in which to test flying, and the new stuff, a place we could ALL use just to enjoy a taste of the new stuff, what's wrong with that. It would give people incentive to "Git Gud" enough to learn the new/updated fundamentals, and still feel like they weren't being gated from so much.

 

Throw your casuals a bone, man. If you wanna keep 'em in the shallow end, put a few dragons and griffins and dark knight tutorials in there, and keep them HAPPY to be there, having fun, getting their money's worth, until they are ready to seize the BIG rewards, finish leveling, and fly "For Real" In ishgard, later.

 

PS: Party Finder sure as heck ain't no cure for bad players, either.

Maybe I'm wording this wrong or my tone just sounds bad. Its probably both.

 

What I'm trying to say is. New players and returning ones will probably be subject to stress more so than they need, because they're doing new content with the vets (If SE drops the gating) and will consistently be ranted on about low ilvls, crappy tanking and all the above. AND they get to suddenly get the new classes off the bat when everyone else had to do all the extra pre HW as well.

 

Like for now for example. If you so much as think of joining a PF for Shiva Ex without knowing the fight you will be ridiculed and probably kicked. New or returning player or not.

 

Its this whole small timeframe where everyone goes if you don't know your job from the start. You're hindering me. You can't just pick up a DRK and expect to do any of the funner dungeons because of the mindset already established. Sure a lot of people here would help out new people regardless but that's not the majority.

 

Its why I think SE made a good choice for barring the HW content. That along with the timeline issues. Why would you start off the MSQ as a AST when in that point of the timeline AST weren't even a thing yet.

[Gegenji]

Its why I think SE made a good choice for barring the HW content. That along with the timeline issues. Why would you start off the MSQ as a AST when in that point of the timeline AST weren't even a thing yet.

 

The issue is that barring the jobs doesn't fix any of those issues. The only thing you'll be bringing to the table is 50 levels worth of knowledge on a completely different class/job and maybe some gear if you've been holding onto it.

 

Best case scenario example:

Player leveled MRD/WAR to 50, leveling GLD for the subclass and cross-skills for DRK, and kept all the tanking gear picked up along the way. Completes the MSQ and picks up DRK from Ishgard.

 

What is this player bringing to the table besides having gear and knowledge in a completely unrelated way to tank? What's the difference that this player is bringing to the table from someone who leveled MRD/WAR to 30/40 other than having gear on hand to equip on level ups as they try to figure out how to play their new job?

 

This is an actual character I'm using in this example, by the way. This is Judge Jredthys, my Au Ra-to-be. I rushed him to 50 WAR, got him the crossclass from GLD, and held onto the gear. From leveling WAR to 50 (albeit twice - Gogon is 50 WAR too) I know... how to tank as a WAR. I will still have to learn how to tank as a DRK - what its cooldowns are, how its mechanics work.

 

That level 30 DRK - no matter what they were beforehand - is going to be learning the same amount, if not more than someone who just hit 30 WAR or 30 PLD. Why more? Because at least with the other two you had 30 levels with the base class to learn the rotations and most of the basic cooldowns.

 

You're being thrown in halfway through for the new jobs. And with a job as complex as, say, Astrologian sounds? You are going to have people screwing up as they learn the jobs whether the job was received at 30/40 or after clearing the MSQ at 50.

[Aaron]

Its why I think SE made a good choice for barring the HW content. That along with the timeline issues. Why would you start off the MSQ as a AST when in that point of the timeline AST weren't even a thing yet.

 

The issue is that barring the jobs doesn't fix any of those issues. The only thing you'll be bringing to the table is 50 levels worth of knowledge on a completely different class/job and maybe some gear if you've been holding onto it.

 

Best case scenario example:

Player leveled MRD/WAR to 50, leveling GLD for the subclass and cross-skills for DRK, and kept all the tanking gear picked up along the way. Completes the MSQ and picks up DRK from Ishgard.

 

What is this player bringing to the table besides having gear and knowledge in a completely unrelated way to tank? What's the difference that this player is bringing to the table from someone who leveled MRD/WAR to 30/40 other than having gear on hand to equip on level ups as they try to figure out how to play their new job?

 

This is an actual character I'm using in this example, by the way. This is Judge Jredthys, my Au Ra-to-be. I rushed him to 50 WAR, got him the crossclass from GLD, and held onto the gear. From leveling WAR to 50 (albeit twice - Gogon is 50 WAR too) I know... how to tank as a WAR. I will still have to learn how to tank as a DRK - what its cooldowns are, how its mechanics work.

 

That level 30 DRK - no matter what they were beforehand - is going to be learning the same amount, if not more than someone who just hit 30 WAR or 30 PLD. Why more? Because at least with the other two you had 30 levels with the base class to learn the rotations and most of the basic cooldowns.

 

You're being thrown in halfway through for the new jobs. And with a job as complex as, say, Astrologian sounds? You are going to have people screwing up as they learn the jobs whether the job was received at 30/40 or after clearing the MSQ at 50.

The difference is the mindset.

 

You grab a tank knowing you're meant to holkd aggro from the others. Not DPs, or heal. But hold aggro.

 

A brand new DPS switching to a tank and expecting to be as good tanking as they are dpsing initially is in for disappointment because they need a entirely different mindset.

 

A dps ignorant of anything tanking if they picked up a PLD would spam riot blade combo and sword oath. Not saying you can't be an even better tank than you were a DPs. But it helps to have some knowledge.

 

Similar to watching a video before diving into t5. Lot more helpful than going in blind.

[Telluride]

 

Like for now for example. If you so much as think of joining a PF for Shiva Ex without knowing the fight you will be ridiculed and probably kicked. New or returning player or not.

 

 

This is the source of our confusion.

 

This is my point - the people who want to do, or even care about, for your example, Shiva EX are not the people who we are concerned about. They're gonna be juuuuuust fine. They already have what they want and need, and HW is just "hey, more stuff for people like me who kick butt in endgame." I'm not personally worried about them, because if you're good enough to get to, much less BEAT, Shiva EX and the later coils, you're gonna be ok. Your static is gonna be ok.

 

Now, for the people we ARE worried about - the new and returning people who are going to be stressed - are these people really, do you think, gonna hop into a DRK suit and immediately queue up for Shiva EX? They can't and they won't. And even people who have been Tankz 4 Lyfe are gonna need practice before they are pwning Titan with their greatswords. The stress is gonna be on EVERYONE. But current players know about this, and we're ready for it.

 

SOME content should be level gated, absolutely! That's standard procedure. But when you are adding a MASSIVE, MASSIVE new amount of land to a game, and telling people, hey, sorry, you can't even look, peek, or have a taste for now... that's a slap to someone who just wants to try things out.

 

All I say is to give a little bit of love to the new and returning folks. Look back at Chachan's chart. They DO have a lot of stress. So.... give them some content they bought and can play with for now to soften the blow some.

 

Give us a flying practice area, so we can use our spankin' new griffins.

Give us a little piece of new Ishgard, where we can go touristy, and motivate us to learn the game and git gud.

 

If we are critical and worried about new people who didn't have to "work as hard" to get cool lootz, then perhaps we're missing the idea that we want new people to have SOMETHING, so that they become people who care about learning the game.

 

Because gating frustrates people.

 

"I paid money for THIS - to sit in queue for this crappy instance that is not gonna give me any loot? Why SHOULD I get good for YOU, Existing Player? Why SHOULD I care about your game experience from me when I just want my @#$@ dragon mount and this game is holding it just out of my reach? Now, shut up and carry me!"

 

(And no, I'm not comparing this to other MMOs that make you do ridiculous things to get a minion/pet/mount. It's not really comparable.)

 

Coil, the Tower raids, and the EX stuff is completely irrelevant, and has no power or reference in this discussion. If all we care about from new people is Gittin' Gud enough in the optional content - and all of those are optional - then it's our attitude that is the problem.

 

In one sentence: It is my opinion that gating just makes people LESS inclined, not more inclined, to get better, because all they can see is that a thing they really want to do, what they came to do, is denied to them.

[Harmonixer]

Being mindful of your damage mitigation is just as important as keeping threat. It means very little if you're a dead tank because you can't be bothered to keep rotating your cooldowns accordingly.

 

Not to mention mob placement, general avoidance and raid awareness. It's not as simple as spamming flash, at least not in this game. You should also be doing your best to contribute to overall damage. We could argue that tank damage doesn't matter, but it does.

 

I tend to treat tanking as a weaker DPS that can stand in cleave zones. No more important than the next job, but perhaps a fair amount sturdier.

[Aaron]

 

Like for now for example. If you so much as think of joining a PF for Shiva Ex without knowing the fight you will be ridiculed and probably kicked. New or returning player or not.

 

 

This is the source of our confusion.

 

This is my point - the people who want to do, or even care about, for your example, Shiva EX are not the people who we are concerned about. They're gonna be juuuuuust fine. They already have what they want and need, and HW is just "hey, more stuff for people like me who kick butt in endgame."  I'm not personally worried about them, because if you're good enough to get to, much less BEAT, Shiva EX and the later coils, you're gonna be ok. Your static is gonna be ok.

 

Now, for the people we ARE worried about - the new and returning people who are going to be stressed - are these people really, do you think, gonna hop into a DRK suit and immediately queue up for Shiva EX? They can't and they won't. And even people who have been Tankz 4 Lyfe are gonna need practice before they are pwning Titan with their greatswords. The stress is gonna be on EVERYONE. But current players know about this, and we're ready for it.

 

SOME content should be level gated, absolutely! That's standard procedure. But when you are adding a MASSIVE, MASSIVE new amount of land to a game, and telling people, hey, sorry, you can't even look, peek, or have a taste for now... that's a slap to someone who just wants to try things out.

 

All I say is to give a little bit of love to the new and returning folks. Look back at Chachan's chart. They DO have a lot of stress. So.... give them some content they bought and can play with for now to soften the blow some.

 

Give us a flying practice area, so we can use our spankin' new griffins.

Give us a little piece of new Ishgard, where we can go touristy, and motivate us to learn the game and git gud.

 

If we are critical and worried about new people who didn't have to "work as hard" to get cool lootz, then perhaps we're missing the idea that we want new people to have SOMETHING, so that they become people who care about learning the game.

 

Because gating frustrates people.

 

"I paid money for THIS - to sit in queue for this crappy instance that is not gonna give me any loot? Why SHOULD I get good for YOU, Existing Player? Why SHOULD I care about your game experience from me when I just want my @#$@ dragon mount and this game is holding it just out of my reach? Now, shut up and carry me!"

 

In one sentence: It is my opinion that gating just makes people LESS inclined, not more inclined, to get better, because all they can see is that a thing they really want to do, what they came to do, is denied to them.

Hm, you make sense. Guess I was unconsciously thinking more about endgame than just running around on a griffin. Sorry, the ex end game but from exodus in me was talking lol.

 

If that was the case then yeah, you want a griffin? Go ahead and get one. Want to slaughter marmots with a great sword over a Axe? Be my guest.

 

But unfortunately there's a lot of things that tie into that as well. Mainly the linear timeline issues.

 

But I understand your point. Glad that was cleared up.

[Gegenji]

You grab a tank knowing you're meant to holkd aggro from the others. Not DPs, or heal. But hold aggro.

 

A brand new DPS switching to a tank and expecting to be as good tanking as they are dpsing initially is in for disappointment because they need a entirely different mindset.

 

A dps ignorant of anything tanking if they picked up a PLD would spam riot blade combo and sword oath. Not saying you can't be an even better tank than you were a DPs. But it helps to have some knowledge.

 

You will still be able to do this, though. What's preventing someone from leveling... let's say, a DRG to 50 and completing the MSQ... and then picking up DRK? You got someone who could just as easily be expecting to be as good as tanking even though they were a DPS for 50 levels.

 

A DPS ignorant of anything tanking because they spent 50 levels spamming DRG rotations and moves.

 

At least with my approach (level a matching role to 30/40), you're doing roughly the same amount of work you would be for any other job (maybe a little more, the 40 option is like the 10 levels needed for unlocking ROG you see), and it would be in a class where you'd be learning the basics of that particular role. Then, you can switch right over and start learning the new job and all the new stuff it brings to the table, same as a level 50 would be doing.

 

Just sooner. With less time and energy wasted that doesn't need to be. The only drawback is the whole "these are Ishgard jobs" lore issue... but DRG is an Ishgard job and you got to pick that up just fine once your Gridanian-trained Lancer hit level 30.

[Aaron]

You grab a tank knowing you're meant to holkd aggro from the others. Not DPs, or heal. But hold aggro.

 

A brand new DPS switching to a tank and expecting to be as good tanking as they are dpsing initially is in for disappointment because they need a entirely different mindset.

 

A dps ignorant of anything tanking if they picked up a PLD would spam riot blade combo and sword oath. Not saying you can't be an even better tank than you were a DPs. But it helps to have some knowledge.

 

You will still be able to do this, though. What's preventing someone from leveling... let's say, a DRG to 50 and completing the MSQ... and then picking up DRK? You got someone who could just as easily be expecting to be as good as tanking even though they were a DPS for 50 levels.

 

A DPS ignorant of anything tanking because they spent 50 levels spamming DRG rotations and moves.

 

At least with my approach (level a matching role to 30/40), you're doing roughly the same amount of work you would be for any other job (maybe a little more, the 40 option is like the 10 levels needed for unlocking ROG you see), and it would be in a class where you'd be learning the basics of that particular role. Then, you can switch right over and start learning the new job and all the new stuff it brings to the table, same as a level 50 would be doing.

 

Just sooner. With less time and energy wasted that doesn't need to be. The only drawback is the whole "these are Ishgard jobs" lore issue... but DRG is an Ishgard job and you got to pick that up just fine once your Gridanian-trained Lancer hit level 30.

Except the odds of being naturally good at something when you started as something completely different isn't as high as not being good at it. Some people just cant handle tanking. Others suck at ANY type of dps and some refuse to heal out of fear. 

 

New players don't know what they're good at. And those who start with a 50 and suddenly take a different approach don't know either. There is no learning easily or alternative.

 

You either are good at it from the start. Can learn with a bit of help or just plain suck. You wouldn't want a DRG who is so used to dpsing to suddenly join your party as a tank and expect him to be good as a experienced tank do you?

[Gegenji]

You either are good at it from the start. Can learn with a bit of help or just plain suck. You wouldn't want a DRG who is so used to dpsing to suddenly join your party as a tank and expect him to be good as a experienced tank do you?

 

Which is exactly what can happen. DRG levels to 50, picks up DRK, and joins a party looking to tank. How is this any better than someone who leveled a relevant class to 30/40 and then picked up DRK, like in my alternative? Or heck, how would it be any different from someone leveling ANY class to 30/40 and picking up DRK?

 

You're going to have the same issue no matter what level the original class was when the player picked up DRK, unless the original class was a tank. And then you only know the basic mechanics of being a tank, not how to play DRK. At least with my option, you're ensuring that X number of levels was at least spent learning the basics of the role. AND doing it without forcing the player to level a class all the way to 50 and complete the entirety of the MSQ up to 2.55 in order to pick up DRK.

[SunTzu7]

I'm just throwing out a personal experience here, based on this discussion of buying the game for a specific reason.

 

So when I got this game, way back in the mists of time of... like a year or so ago, I wanted to play as a Black Mage. When I do RPG's, I usually pick Mages cause mages turn out broken in the end. I imported a character from another RP who was a Mage. I started as a Thaumaturge, because it would lead to my ultimate goal of being a Black Mage.

 

Fast forward fifteen or so levels and I realize, hey, I can't get into dungeons because DPS queues have this little sideways eight thing on them for queue times. So I putz around looking for other stuff to do in the meantime, and I realize that the game's opened up a bunch of different job options for me. It's not in character or anything, but maybe I can pick up Conjurer and do healing for a bit? Seems to get faster queue times and I don't EVER want to do tanking. I like big numbers and low responsibility for things.

 

Present day here I am, a Paladin main so vastly diverged from the character concept that I originally intended that I have to start referring to my character by the surname that I made up for them for this game alone so I can keep the two wildly different interpretations separate in my mind.

 

Sometimes you drift into things that you're not certain at the outset that you'll go into. The game does encourage you to try new things when they pop up, and it's making a real effort to keep old content relevant to you. People aren't going to be left in the dust in the old content while we're going nuts around the new stuff. People will go back into old stuff for glamours, for Zodiac stuff so they get the shortcut on the new relic gear, or even shockingly enough just to help out new people.

 

Another thing to consider is that Ishgard, the new classes and new features are all things that we, the people who have been playing for about a year or so now, are very much looking forward to, and the reason is mostly that we've done everything that's in the old stuff. We putz around Extreme Primals for magic horsies for crying out loud.

 

My question is for a new person, are they going to come in and want to play the new classes more than the stuff they have in Realm Reborn content? You can tout the new features of Dark Knight or the majesty of getting into Ishgard at last, but people need context for a lot of this. A lot of newcomers will still go 'I want to be a Dragoon' mostly for the sublimely simple reasons that Dragoons are awesome looking and jump real high. Will they be pinning hard for Astrologian? Machinst? Maybe, but it won't be a significant amount of people.

 

And of those people, should the game be catering to them? The fact of the matter is that any game that wants to last as long as something like WoW has to do a tremendous balancing act of keeping the veterans happy, while trying to keep every newcomer happy, and let's face facts, it's impossible. Everyone has a specific set of requirements, and SE cannot possibly do right by everyone.

 

While I never experienced it myself, remember that something like the transition to Heavensward has already happened. People who stuck with the game in Legacy still had to go through the main scenario like everyone else, even if they were poncing around low level dungeons with their Level 50 stats and gear. Maybe people took a different class through, but some people just want to level the one. Should they have been allowed to skip the main story and get to later content?

 

I've talked for a while, so to sum up. We're jaded individuals. For a lot of people, Realm Reborn content is still going to be a new, shiny, exciting experience. As long as we don't spend ages flying over them poking at the groundbound masses. Cause that's when the torches and pitchforks get pulled out.

[Naunet]

My question is for a new person, are they going to come in and want to play the new classes more than the stuff they have in Realm Reborn content? You can tout the new features of Dark Knight or the majesty of getting into Ishgard at last, but people need context for a lot of this. A lot of newcomers will still go 'I want to be a Dragoon' mostly for the sublimely simple reasons that Dragoons are awesome looking and jump real high. Will they be pinning hard for Astrologian? Machinst? Maybe, but it won't be a significant amount of people.

 

What evidence do you have that more people would want to be X class over Y class? SE is pushing the three new classes pretty darn hard in their advertising. New players are going to be exposed to them.

 

Maybe playing FFXIV takes a certain godly ability to tolerate arbitrary BS to play and enjoy. I would certainly be disappointed, possibly to the point of just saying "screw it", if I was drawn to the game by X and then promptly told I couldn't get X unless invested a whole lot of time leveling a character I didn't want.

[Gegenji]

My question is for a new person, are they going to come in and want to play the new classes more than the stuff they have in Realm Reborn content? You can tout the new features of Dark Knight or the majesty of getting into Ishgard at last, but people need context for a lot of this. A lot of newcomers will still go 'I want to be a Dragoon' mostly for the sublimely simple reasons that Dragoons are awesome looking and jump real high. Will they be pinning hard for Astrologian? Machinst? Maybe, but it won't be a significant amount of people.

 

People were pining for Ninja when they heard it was coming. And they were able to start on that right away with only a minor investment, considering. And then they could still go do the Realm Reborn content.

 

In fact, I would figure that even if you made DRK/MCH/AST available once reaching level 30/40, most would CONTINUE to do the Realm Content. Just, instead of angrily rushing through it to get to 50, finish the MSQ, and get to the class they want... they'd be doing it with the new jobs. Learning the new shiny toy while enjoying ARR content too.

 

I don't think anyone here is implying that a newcomer should be able to just skip to level 30 or skip having to go through the plot to see the new areas and such. It's just that walling so much off behind the plot is frustrating. Having to do that slog would be so much easier if you got to enjoy at least a few bits of the new content along the way.

 

Think of it:

 

1.) New player comes in, makes an Au Ra because dragon/demon person! Neat!

2.) Player levels a class to 30/40, likely through doing the MSQ and get a feel for the role.

3.) They travel to Coerthas Central Highlands and wow! There's a guy who will teach me how to shoot guns! Au Ra Machinist! Kickin'!

4.) Au Ra Machinist continues through the MSQ and catches up to 2.55

5.) Au Ra Machinist heads into Heavensward.

 

Not every step is the same length, but giving SOME taste of what you already paid money for along the way isn't that bad of a thing, is it? Who would be hurt by it? After all, those who prepped beforehand wouldn't even need to level a class to 30/40 - they have one! And since they already caught up to the MSQ, then can hop right into Heavensward.

 

Or work on leveling their new jobs with all the others who picked up their new jobs... and those getting to 30/40 so they can be those super-cool jobs too.

 

Content stays (relatively) fresh, everyone wins.