Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice?

[BroodingFicus]

I understand wanting to walk new players through the game. But they should not be the /only/ consideration. I still feel like there should be some sort of link between your characters and once I level through the main story once, all alts are excused from it. The first time through, I enjoyed it. Now? This would be my third time and it starts to feel like I'm paying them to do something I end up hating. Which really...I wouldn't even mind redoing the story etc if I could do it as a new class. Hence why I have alts as it is. At least that way I feel I'm being educated and prepared for high level stuff, learning my class, rotation etc. Not the case if I'm forced to do it as a class that is just a place holder.

[Zyrusticae]

Item level in particular has always baffled me as a design choice. Why not just go full horizontal at level cap that way the gear you find actually has some long-term value? I just don't get it.

 

Also, while the story in FFXIV is certainly competent, it is not the main draw for me, not by a longshot; the game world and attention detail are what draw me here as well as the varying mechanics at max level. It's an expansive, nuanced game hidden behind numerous locked doors.

 

The reasoning is extremely obvious: they want a carrot on a stick for maxed-out players to chase over and over again. Horizontal gear drops does not accomplish this because the motivation to gun for that gear simply is not strong enough (not to mention it can introduce serious balance issues that result in certain pieces of gear being used for years without replacement). This is besides the fact that the game was not designed for that sort of thing to begin with, so adding it down the road would only introduce massive complications as they try to work things out.

 

I do understand the game's story shouldn't take so much priority in your view, but obviously Yoshida disagrees, and he is treating the game much like a single-player RPG in that regard - he wants to able to have some serious story developments occur, and having people be able to skip around is quite problematic for that kind of storytelling. Unfortunately, if this does not sit right with you, it's just something you'll have to deal with.

 

If a brand new player isn't willing to go through the original game, and just wants to hop into new content, well then tough luck, this game isn't for them.

 

That's less of a concern than how many new players will there be at those levels? Most of the gating content is group-based.

 

People are already having a tough time to do MSQ dungeons if they're a certain class while leveling. Not because they're difficult but because nobody queues for low-level unless they absolutely need to. Couple that with the typical lack of tanks/healers in MMOs, there's the recipe for a full blown disaster. Around as bad as the original Tri-Disaster.

 

They only need to properly incentivize the low-level roulette. As it is, it's just not rewarding enough for the time you have to put in. Give it enough of an incentive and people WILL run it.

[Gone.]

The reasoning is extremely obvious: they want a carrot on a stick for maxed-out players to chase over and over again. Horizontal gear drops does not accomplish this because the motivation to gun for that gear simply is not strong enough (not to mention it can introduce serious balance issues that result in certain pieces of gear being used for years without replacement). This is besides the fact that the game was not designed for that sort of thing to begin with, so adding it down the road would only introduce massive complications as they try to work things out.

 

"Carrot on a stick" only appeases a small minority. In a game that the director advertises as easily accessible, this is counter-productive in the entirety.

 

Frankly I've never seen a game with said balance issues due to horizontal gear; Guild Wars 2 did it just fine and the balance issues were found elsewhere, not in the gear itself.

 

The game already really is designed for it; merge ilevel and required level, tie stats to the colored tiers, scale back post-ilevel 60 content and boom, done. Time consuming and unlikely? Sure, but it's not an Einstein project.

 

I do understand the game's story shouldn't take so much priority in your view, but obviously Yoshida disagrees, and he is treating the game much like a single-player RPG in that regard - he wants to able to have some serious story developments occur, and having people be able to skip around is quite problematic for that kind of storytelling. Unfortunately, if this does not sit right with you, it's just something you'll have to deal with.

 

Once again, Guild Wars 2 managed it just fine. The story was entirely optional making it no longer a tedium (at least in that regard, the writing was another story) to simply wade through. Hell, it works out just fine for countless sandbox games. Why not here?

 

Don't get me wrong, either, I totally get it; SQX wants that single player Final Fantasy appeal. That's fine and all, I can deal, but at least do us all a favor and have the MSQ unlock things on an account level. It's too much of an epic to do more than the one time, nor is it really good enough for that matter.

[Zyrusticae]

"Carrot on a stick" only appeases a small minority. In a game that the director advertises as easily accessible, this is counter-productive in the entirety.

 

Frankly I've never seen a game with said balance issues due to horizontal gear; Guild Wars 2 did it just fine and the balance issues were found elsewhere, not in the gear itself.

 

The game already really is designed for it; merge ilevel and required level, tie stats to the colored tiers, scale back post-ilevel 60 content and boom, done. Time consuming and unlikely? Sure, but it's not an Einstein project.

 

GW2's entire world and game design is completely different from ARR's. There's no point trying to use that as an example when the two games share almost no mechanics to speak of.

 

The class mechanics alone make it impossible for them to change things that drastically. Unless they completely retooled the way attributes work in the game, there would be no reason to pick anything other than the most optimal stat mixes as players already do now. And that would be one seriously major undertaking, to say the least.

 

And if you've never seen balance issues with horizontal gear, I can only assume you never played FFXI, which is where those issues were really noticeable and a large part of why FFXIV is itemized the way it is.

 

GW2's form of horizontal gear is mostly meaningless anyway. Once you have your optimal stat mix you have zero incentive to get another set. A huge part of what people want from horizontal gear is for each piece to have more meaning than simple ilvls. GW2 does NOT accomplish this. In that regard, its gear system is a failure.

 

Once again, Guild Wars 2 managed it just fine. The story was entirely optional making it no longer a tedium (at least in that regard, the writing was another story) to simply wade through. Hell, it works out just fine for countless sandbox games. Why not here?

 

Don't get me wrong, either, I totally get it; SQX wants that single player Final Fantasy appeal. That's fine and all, I can deal, but at least do us all a favor and have the MSQ unlock things on an account level. It's too much of an epic to do more than the one time, nor is it really good enough for that matter.

 

GW2's style is to have permanent story developments that completely and irreversibly change sections of the game world. ARE YOU SURE THIS IS WHAT YOU WANT? There is no way to replay sections of the story that you missed out on. This is one of my biggest complaints about the way GW2 does things.

 

I mean, they could have Ishgard permanently open their doors to everyone after a mass story event... that no one could ever replay or experience again because it was a one-time deal. I'm pretty sure the amount of bitching that would occur would be just as astronomical as what did happen to Arenanet when they did the same thing. No, even greater, because at least in GW2's case a fair chunk of the playerbase doesn't give a toss about its story whereas Final Fantasy is a completely different matter.

 

That being said, they could at least give us access to classes without having to play through main story content and going through the ilvl grind... but apparently they decided against that. I don't know the thought process behind why they made that decision, but I can only assume they thought long and hard about it before making it. Or at least, I would hope as much.

 

I do agree that being able to skip all the unlocking with alts would be a great change, however. That's one thing that FFXIV does really, really poorly.

[Marisa]

I am honestly kind of horrified by some of the things I'm reading in this thread. Its like half of you have never played a Triple-A mmo before. Fact is, y'all signed on for a Final Fantasy reskin of WoW, and with that mindset almost all of SE's major decisions in the last two years were very easy to predict. This is how expansions are done in the big leagues, and how they have been done for over a decade. What horrified me the most was the statement that "SE is going to lose a lot of money because of this decision", which is an absolutely absurd notion. Most of XIV's player base came here from WoW or some other Everquest-style game. The RPC may be full of people who played FFXI, but thats a demographic bias. Outside the RP community, it's a small minority. As such, the vast majority of the playerbase expects expansions to operate in a very specific way, the exact way which SE is implementing. If anything, not doing it like this is what would kill XIV. Doing anything which is counter-intuitive to the mainstream, no matter how fun it might be, is suicide for a large game. This isn't some 3rd-rate Korean f2p game operating on a couple thousands dollars a month. FFXIV is one of the big boys and it has to play by big boy rules. 

 

As for the idea that players will have to sit at level 50 and grind out gear to access Heavensward, that's also nonsense. They haven't said how they'll change that, but it's nearly a guarantee that it'll be changed. Likely through some sort of Echo buff, much like you get in the solo instances throughout the MSQ. And we can guarantee this because at the end of the day, Yoshida is a man who was raised on Western RPGs. He knows exactly how Americans play games, and thus far he's catered to that. I'm baffled at how many of you suddenly think he's going to abandon that for no apparent reason.

[Kellach Woods]

As for the idea that players will have to sit at level 50 and grind out gear to access Heavensward, that's also nonsense. They haven't said how they'll change that, but it's nearly a guarantee that it'll be changed. Likely through some sort of Echo buff, much like you get in the solo instances throughout the MSQ. And we can guarantee this because at the end of the day, Yoshida is a man who was raised on Western RPGs. He knows exactly how Americans play games, and thus far he's catered to that. I'm baffled at how many of you suddenly think he's going to abandon that for no apparent reason.

 

Exactly why people are concerned. They've not addressed that, nor have they addressed if airships will lock you out of significant content or no.

 

Also, Echo buffs do not allow subgeared people to do the dungeons, btw. If you're undergeared you're undergeared and the system will not allow for that. They'd have to manually nerf and analyze the threshold needed to nerf it if necessary. Although, considering every rotation is rehauled, I'm not exactly sure if everything will work as intended at 50 since you will no longer be a complete character at that point.

[Naunet]

This presents a two-fold problem to me... one, the story quest requirements are such a dang chore and (I realize this is an unpopular opinion, sorry ) truly quite boring. I think it's a huge mistake to wall off a new expac of content behind an outdated ilvl grind, story be damned.

 

But really what was the nail in the coffin for me was locking the new jobs behind additional levels. Comparisons to death knights are not really accurate because you 1) didn't have to come close to level cap on a character in order to be able to make a DK, 2) you can start your character as a DK and that's that, no frustrating forced play as a class you do not want.

[Marisa]

 

 

Also, Echo buffs do not allow subgeared people to do the dungeons, btw. If you're undergeared you're undergeared and the system will not allow for that. They'd have to manually nerf and analyze the threshold needed to nerf it if necessary. Although, considering every rotation is rehauled, I'm not exactly sure if everything will work as intended at 50 since you will no longer be a complete character at that point.

 

Sure it can. It hasn't been used for dungeons yet, but there are several solo instances throughout the MSQ where an echo buff was applied which raised the characters stats. Literally all it would take to solve the issue of level 50 dungeons is an upward level-sync. 

 

And of course, it's not like you'll just be sitting there grinding out dungeons with no reward. You'll be getting experience the whole time, meaning you'll probably have a few level head-start when you hit 3.0 content.

[Clover]

Personally, if I were a new player just coming to FFXIV, everything would be new for me. Exploring Ishgard or exploring Ul'dah would be the same. Old content might be tedious for veterans, but not for a new player (?). I find it quite logical that new content is aimed at people who have already done the old content, while new players still have a lot of things to learn and explore. And still, new players are able to create Au Ras without reaching the Yugiri part, so not everything is locked.

 

Also, if I were eager to explore Ishgard or get any of the new clases, that'd be my goal. Aren't MMORPGs about goals?

 

It can't be helped that FFXIV's story happens to be important, and thus there's no other way to do this than to reach that point of the story. It's like a game releasing a DLC that continues the main story after it ended. Just beat the game, then play the DLC; I personally don't find it a big deal.

[Kellach Woods]

Sure it can. It hasn't been used for dungeons yet, but there are several solo instances throughout the MSQ where an echo buff was applied which raised the characters stats. Literally all it would take to solve the issue of level 50 dungeons is an upward level-sync. 

 

And of course, it's not like you'll just be sitting there grinding out dungeons with no reward. You'll be getting experience the whole time, meaning you'll probably have a few level head-start when you hit 3.0 content.

 

Try going into Coil while undergeared - just T1 will do. You have an Echo buff from the start these days, but you still need i70 to do so. Patching in an Echo buff won't change iLevel requirements, and yeah sure it's easy to get up there in iLevels these days... provided you can get a group, period. Unless they went out of their way to make solo versions of these instances (which would be arguably incredibly stupid) what you propose won't change a thing.

 

The best news to combat a bit of this (in short from 30-49) is that new classes start at 30. Since that means from 30 onwards there'll be a bigger pool of people leveling DRKs and Astros.

 

The problem is the amount of available bodies who will be around to do 2.1-2.5 content. The only solution that's been brought forward is literally "let's help the new people!" or "they should join an established FC!"

 

Joining a rando FC should never be a solution, and people here shouldn't feel pressured into helping out new people.

 

Since this needs reiterating : NO ONE IS SAYING THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE TO DO THE CONTENT. I'm saying that this decision has underlying problems that I'd like the devs to address.

[Steel Wolf]

The problem is the amount of available bodies who will be around to do 2.1-2.5 content. The only solution that's been brought forward is literally "let's help the new people!" or "they should join an established FC!"

 

Joining a rando FC should never be a solution, and people here shouldn't feel pressured into helping out new people.

 

Since this needs reiterating : NO ONE IS SAYING THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE TO DO THE CONTENT. I'm saying that this decision has underlying problems that I'd like the devs to address.

 

Really really good post here, though I will have to disagree with a few points, respectfully. The requirement for people to come together and clear content is part of the draw of MMOs for many, and considering that was the only way one could play XI, it's a good enough nod to that design mindset while still streamlining (mostly) the ways people can pull together.

 

Now, obviously, that doesn't work for everyone...and I still feel like the item level gating and level gating for basic-ass quality of life features is probably the dumbest decision in MMOs since "no chat bubbles for you". But as someone who played MMOs mostly solo and was terrified of dungeoneering upon my return to XIV, the sense of community that comes out of needing to group up is palpable. It's not warm and snuggly at all times, and there's still folks who just DF to use people as tools instead of people, but having done LOTS of solo-friendly MMO'ing, there is something to be said for how making grouping mandatory draws people together, even if only temporarily.

[Jonexe]

Honestly, at this point, there's nothing to be done about it. You either do the stuff and be ready now or you don't.

 

If it honestly, truly concerns you then you should take your concern directly the FFXIV Official Forums (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/forum.php) and tell the developers about it. Arguing the various points back and forth here does nothing, and doesn't get anyone to address any concerns you have. We're never going to have a consensus here, and even if we did it amounts to exactly zero.

[Darien Cadell]

When FFXI launched in North America, it already had an expansion. I couldn't access the expansion jobs without going through a whole bunch of hoops. Granted, they weren't as many hoops as doing the entirety of the XIV storyline, but it's not like all of the content was available to everyone the moment they logged in. Expansions are additions to main content. If new players want to start, they do the old content, then the new content. It's not that insane.

 

The ilevel is almost solved by the soldiery bonuses that players get just doing the dungeons for the main story. Tons of soldiery, buy the gear, get the ilevel, keep storying?

 

Hopefully, the devs and whoever else in charge are listening to the grumbling (not here, no doubt, but I assume this isn't an isolated discussion) and have plans for how to make the transition into new content smoother for certain groups of people, or will implement adjustments as problems arise. But for the vast majority who are expanding the content they already play and have been playing (and aren't playing alts because alts aren't the norm), expectation of having finished certain story chapters is not at all odd or bad.

[Marisa]

Sure it can. It hasn't been used for dungeons yet, but there are several solo instances throughout the MSQ where an echo buff was applied which raised the characters stats. Literally all it would take to solve the issue of level 50 dungeons is an upward level-sync. 

 

And of course, it's not like you'll just be sitting there grinding out dungeons with no reward. You'll be getting experience the whole time, meaning you'll probably have a few level head-start when you hit 3.0 content.

 

Try going into Coil while undergeared - just T1 will do. You have an Echo buff from the start these days, but you still need i70 to do so. Patching in an Echo buff won't change iLevel requirements, and yeah sure it's easy to get up there in iLevels these days... provided you can get a group, period. Unless they went out of their way to make solo versions of these instances (which would be arguably incredibly stupid) what you propose won't change a thing.

 

The best news to combat a bit of this (in short from 30-49) is that new classes start at 30. Since that means from 30 onwards there'll be a bigger pool of people leveling DRKs and Astros.

 

The problem is the amount of available bodies who will be around to do 2.1-2.5 content. The only solution that's been brought forward is literally "let's help the new people!" or "they should join an established FC!"

 

Joining a rando FC should never be a solution, and people here shouldn't feel pressured into helping out new people.

 

Since this needs reiterating : NO ONE IS SAYING THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE TO DO THE CONTENT. I'm saying that this decision has underlying problems that I'd like the devs to address.

 

How is it any different from the parts of the 1-49 MSQ which already require dungeons? Roll them all into low-level roulette, scale them down to be doable in ilvl 60 gear, and call it a day. Again, we've been playing this game for 2 years now, and it's heavily based on a game most of us played for up to a decade. Nothing here is new, and it's entirely easy to predict exactly what SE will do. 

 

Seriously, have a little faith in the dev team. They're not idiots.

[Tyndles]

Sure it can. It hasn't been used for dungeons yet, but there are several solo instances throughout the MSQ where an echo buff was applied which raised the characters stats. Literally all it would take to solve the issue of level 50 dungeons is an upward level-sync. 

 

And of course, it's not like you'll just be sitting there grinding out dungeons with no reward. You'll be getting experience the whole time, meaning you'll probably have a few level head-start when you hit 3.0 content.

 

Try going into Coil while undergeared - just T1 will do. You have an Echo buff from the start these days, but you still need i70 to do so. Patching in an Echo buff won't change iLevel requirements, and yeah sure it's easy to get up there in iLevels these days... provided you can get a group, period. Unless they went out of their way to make solo versions of these instances (which would be arguably incredibly stupid) what you propose won't change a thing.

 

The best news to combat a bit of this (in short from 30-49) is that new classes start at 30. Since that means from 30 onwards there'll be a bigger pool of people leveling DRKs and Astros.

 

The problem is the amount of available bodies who will be around to do 2.1-2.5 content. The only solution that's been brought forward is literally "let's help the new people!" or "they should join an established FC!"

 

Joining a rando FC should never be a solution, and people here shouldn't feel pressured into helping out new people.

 

Since this needs reiterating : NO ONE IS SAYING THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE TO DO THE CONTENT. I'm saying that this decision has underlying problems that I'd like the devs to address.

 

How is it any different from the parts of the 1-49 MSQ which already require dungeons? Roll them all into low-level roulette, scale them down to be doable in ilvl 60 gear, and call it a day. Again, we've been playing this game for 2 years now, and it's heavily based on a game most of us played for up to a decade. Nothing here is new, and it's entirely easy to predict exactly what SE will do. 

 

Seriously, have a little faith in the dev team. They're not idiots.

 

Ryoko has it pretty much nailed.  Things with the MSQ WILL change so no one needs to grind out level 50 content (Not counting finishing the MSQ) before they go to Heavensward stuff.  Either they'll reward ilevel 100 stuff during the last branches of the MSQ, or the required instances will have their ilevel dropped WAAY down. Probably both.  I suspect that the requirement to complete the MSQ will be relaxed some time after release though.

[Naunet]

it's heavily based on a game most of us played for up to a decade.

 

I think this (the "most of us" part) is debatable.

 

It's the job locks that bother me the most though. That's some Grade A jerk stuff on SE's part and more than being unfriendly to alts is a huge kick in the privates to new players who might be drawn to start the game with Heavensward advertisement. "Oh hey, I've never played this game before, but that machinist/astrologian/whatever class looks awesome. Wait... I can't actually make a character with that class until I've grinded up a bunch of levels on one of these other classes I have no interest in? Ugh."

[Marisa]

it's heavily based on a game most of us played for up to a decade.

 

I think this (the "most of us" part) is debatable.

 

It's the job locks that bother me the most though. That's some Grade A jerk stuff on SE's part and more than being unfriendly to alts is a huge kick in the privates to new players who might be drawn to start the game with Heavensward advertisement. "Oh hey, I've never played this game before, but that machinist/astrologian/whatever class looks awesome. Wait... I can't actually make a character with that class until I've grinded up a bunch of levels on one of these other classes I have no interest in? Ugh."

 

Now here's something we can agree on. The fact that almost 1/3rd of existing classes won't be playable from the start does seem like an un-fun mechanic for new players. 

 

As for the Warcraft thing, I guess this might not be that kind of crowd. But believe me when I say (and any other former WoW player will tell you) that SE is following Blizzard's path pretty closely, and nothing they do surprises us because of that.

[Kellach Woods]

Really really good post here, though I will have to disagree with a few points, respectfully.  The requirement for people to come together and clear content is part of the draw of MMOs for many, and considering that was the only way one could play XI, it's a good enough nod to that design mindset while still streamlining (mostly) the ways people can pull together.

 

Now, obviously, that doesn't work for everyone...and I still feel like the item level gating and level gating for basic-ass quality of life features is probably the dumbest decision in MMOs since "no chat bubbles for you".  But as someone who played MMOs mostly solo and was terrified of dungeoneering upon my return to XIV, the sense of community that comes out of needing to group up is palpable.  It's not warm and snuggly at all times, and there's still folks who just DF to use people as tools instead of people, but having done LOTS of solo-friendly MMO'ing, there is something to be said for how making grouping mandatory draws people together, even if only temporarily.

 

That's why I specified a rando FC rather than one you've carefully selected and want to be a part of. I'm not against forcing people through group content compared to what most infer. I'm against doing it when there's going to be a dearth of players at that level. The problem isn't forcing people - it's making a system where you have to do it when there won't be that many players at that level, forcing you through extra hoops rather than what you are technically supposed to do (queue up through duty roulette, complete).

 

And if anyone is saying they will obviously fix this, only one thing to say to that.

 

What's your source?

[Marisa]

And if anyone is saying they will obviously fix this, only one thing to say to that.

 

What's your source?

 

I mean sure, nobody has a primary source one way or the other. But all of the evidence points toward the idea that Yoshida won't intentionally alienate his playerbase, with almost no evidence indicating that he will. 

 

Basically they'll do it this way because they've always done it this way, and anyone saying they're suddenly shifting paradigms is just doom-saying.

[Kellach Woods]

I mean sure, nobody has a primary source one way or the other. But all of the evidence points toward the idea that Yoshida won't intentionally alienate his playerbase, with almost no evidence indicating that he will. 

 

Basically they'll do it this way because they've always done it this way, and anyone saying they're suddenly shifting paradigms is just doom-saying.

 

No source, no evidence.

 

And consider the answers to this thread : how would it alienate the playerbase?

[Gone.]

GW2's entire world and game design is completely different from ARR's. There's no point trying to use that as an example when the two games share almost no mechanics to speak of.

 

The class mechanics alone make it impossible for them to change things that drastically. Unless they completely retooled the way attributes work in the game, there would be no reason to pick anything other than the most optimal stat mixes as players already do now. And that would be one seriously major undertaking, to say the least.

 

And if you've never seen balance issues with horizontal gear, I can only assume you never played FFXI, which is where those issues were really noticeable and a large part of why FFXIV is itemized the way it is.

 

GW2's form of horizontal gear is mostly meaningless anyway. Once you have your optimal stat mix you have zero incentive to get another set. A huge part of what people want from horizontal gear is for each piece to have more meaning than simple ilvls. GW2 does NOT accomplish this. In that regard, its gear system is a failure.

 

It's a perfectly fair example of an MMO that does equipment better than its contemporaries, action oriented or not. To dismiss it is to miss my point entirely.

 

I didn't say it wouldn't be a difficult undertaking, either, or even a practical one, just saying that it is possible and by all means the superior option.

 

And no, I didn't play FFXI; I avoided it like the plague due to the notorious level of tedium, the very reason I disagree with item level as a mechanic to begin with. Tedium is bad game design, plain and simple. It may suit the grinder with no life outside of their chosen game, but anyone else is more or less sacrificed in turn for it.

 

Also, no, the horizontal progression was not meaningless, not one bit. Every class could make use of several stat combos depending on build and situation; this was especially true if you played all three game modes. Perhaps you didn't step out of FotM builds, but trust me, it was definitely there.

 

This sort of variation is something I see requested for on the official FFXIV forums quite frequently. Unfortunately, the only way to do it is to ditch ilevel and go full horizontal, making the gear we find actually valuable for more than six months.

 

Sorry, but I hate throwing things out that should be perfectly usable for many years to come. I wish I could say this about what my characters have now, but it's ultimately all disposable making the effort ultimately pointless in the end.

 

GW2's style is to have permanent story developments that completely and irreversibly change sections of the game world. ARE YOU SURE THIS IS WHAT YOU WANT? There is no way to replay sections of the story that you missed out on. This is one of my biggest complaints about the way GW2 does things.

 

I mean, they could have Ishgard permanently open their doors to everyone after a mass story event... that no one could ever replay or experience again because it was a one-time deal. I'm pretty sure the amount of bitching that would occur would be just as astronomical as what did happen to Arenanet when they did the same thing. No, even greater, because at least in GW2's case a fair chunk of the playerbase doesn't give a toss about its story whereas Final Fantasy is a completely different matter.

 

That being said, they could at least give us access to classes without having to play through main story content and going through the ilvl grind... but apparently they decided against that. I don't know the thought process behind why they made that decision, but I can only assume they thought long and hard about it before making it. Or at least, I would hope as much.

 

I do agree that being able to skip all the unlocking with alts would be a great change, however. That's one thing that FFXIV does really, really poorly.

 

That was living story. I'm not talking living story, I'm talking the original, variable quest line the game launched with which has always been optional. As soon as a player makes it through the short and painless racial introduction, they are free to roam about and approach the game as they see fit. This is, by all means, the best way design an MMO from the ground up. One should not have to be forced through a predefined story with a character they made themselves, certainly not to the degree FFXIV does.

 

And for the record, I'm really not that attached to the FFXIV story because when it comes down it, it's not mine. If I want to be told a story, I will play a single player game or watch a movie, of which I have many already. I'm here to build my own legacy, not someone else's. Now granted, I have to make some sacrifice as this type of game design is no longer in vogue with MMOs, but FFXIV could be doing a lot better than it is now. I'm honestly afraid to see how things will look years from now if SQX doesn't address things now and you should, too, because frankly? It'll be a mess at best and impenetrable at worst.

[Marisa]

I mean sure, nobody has a primary source one way or the other. But all of the evidence points toward the idea that Yoshida won't intentionally alienate his playerbase, with almost no evidence indicating that he will. 

 

Basically they'll do it this way because they've always done it this way, and anyone saying they're suddenly shifting paradigms is just doom-saying.

 

No source, no evidence.

 

And consider the answers to this thread : how would it alienate the playerbase?

 

Well, y'all are claiming that ol' Yoshi is going to sit back and cackle madly as he forces all new players to stop 10 levels before the cap and grind for weeks, which would definitely alienate a lot of people needlessly. But that's not how MMOs work, and no major developer would ever do that. The guy has decades of experience in the dev game, he knows what he's doing.

[BroodingFicus]

It's the job locks that bother me the most though. That's some Grade A jerk stuff on SE's part and more than being unfriendly to alts is a huge kick in the privates to new players who might be drawn to start the game with Heavensward advertisement. "Oh hey, I've never played this game before, but that machinist/astrologian/whatever class looks awesome. Wait... I can't actually make a character with that class until I've grinded up a bunch of levels on one of these other classes I have no interest in? Ugh."

 

Agreed. I just don't understand it. Right now I'm just hoping being 30 of any class (since they have no 'base' class from what I've read) is enough and branch from there just like Warrior etc. If they do that and shove the quest giver out in Coerthas I'll be satisfied and it will keep new players from needing to level up to 50 plus do tons of story quests beyond that before getting to touch the new jobs.

 

I've never played an MMO that brought out new jobs/classes with an expansion and then said you can't be them until you are almost max level anyway. The new classes start at 30 anyroad so it isn't as if the 35/40/45/50 etc job quests don't exist. I'm just still at a loss as to the reasoning aside from 'we can'.   

 

Well, y'all are claiming that ol' Yoshi is going to sit back and cackle madly as he forces all new players to stop 10 levels before the cap and grind for weeks, which would definitely alienate a lot of people needlessly. But that's not how MMOs work, and no major developer would ever do that. The guy has decades of experience in the dev game, he knows what he's doing.

 

If they go through with locking the new classes/jobs behind level, item level /and/ main scenario progression then they are already essentially doing just that to any new player who want to be one of the three new jobs. Only you could probably actually grind item levels faster than you could grind out all that other stuff even if you click with vicious fury through every story quest. Don't get me wrong. I love what Yoshi has done. Obviously since I'm still paying monthly and I still preordered HW. But common sense has not always triumphed. Ex. Player housing, free company housing, segregating pvp by grand company, throwing guildhests in as part of the main scenario once you are already far beyond them being of benefit etc. Sometimes it feels as if they forget this is an MMO and not a single player RPG.

[Melkire]

Agreed. I just don't understand it. Right now I'm just hoping being 30 of any class (since they have no 'base' class from what I've read) is enough and branch from there just like Warrior etc. If they do that and shove the quest giver out in Coerthas I'll be satisfied and it will keep new players from needing to level up to 50 plus do tons of story quests beyond that before getting to touch the new jobs.

 

The developers have already confirmed that the quest givers for the new jobs are in Ishgard. It was mentioned in a live letter or interview somewhere. I don't see them having enough time to relocate and adjust those questlines in the month remaining to them before HW drops.

 

Does that suck for alts? Is it unfriendly as hell for roleplayers? Yes and yes. But wishing it were otherwise isn't going to make it so.

[BroodingFicus]

Agreed. I just don't understand it. Right now I'm just hoping being 30 of any class (since they have no 'base' class from what I've read) is enough and branch from there just like Warrior etc. If they do that and shove the quest giver out in Coerthas I'll be satisfied and it will keep new players from needing to level up to 50 plus do tons of story quests beyond that before getting to touch the new jobs.

 

The developers have already confirmed that the quest givers for the new jobs are in Ishgard. It was mentioned in a live letter or interview somewhere. I don't see them having enough time to relocate and adjust those questlines in the month remaining to them before HW drops.

 

Does that suck for alts? Is it unfriendly as hell for roleplayers? Yes and yes. But wishing it were otherwise isn't going to make it so.

 

I saw it on a wiki as well saying that the guilds were in Ishgard but I'm always iffy about trusting those. I don't doubt that its confirmed though. My issue with it is that yes it is unfriendly to alts but FFXIV has been from the start. Being a pain for roleplayers? I think we have all become accustomed to that in almost any MMO since we often the minority. A proud and fierce minority but a minority nonetheless. But it is also not great for new people who want to play the new jobs. They will need to level 1-50, meet item level requirements and complete the story which has become a novel at this point. After that they can get the quest and will then need to level 30-50 again to do the new content as the new class. If I could think of a benefit it wouldn't seem as odd. Wishing doesn't make it so but sitting quietly sends the message it is a good practice.