Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice?

[Aya]

I'm curious as to what MMOs you've played then, because no MMO starts you at the 'end' the second a new expansion is dropped. There is a certain amount of "ready time" one has to accomplish before making it to that point in nearly every MMO out there. Whether it's currency farming, rep/faction grinding, or just grinding the same 4 dungeons over and over to get yourself gear ready for the expansion, everything requires some amount of effort and time.

Yes, but everything you mention occurs in the new expansion.  New players are expected to level up through the old content (usually in a process that is streamlined and made easier by the expansion) and then hit the gear, rep, etc. grinds of the new expansion relatively quickly.

 

Gating new players through the MSQ and all of the content, and time investment that involves in addition to everything mentioned above (this in no way alleviates rep grinding, gear, etc) is rough!  Leveling to 50 isn't enough, you still have to complete all of the level 50 MSQ content, and all of the pre-50 MSQ content.  Alt characters (such as Warren's) can do this quickly (but still tediously) by skipping all of the dialogue and cut scenes, is that what we expect of brand new players as well, or should they just anticipate a several month time lag from when they start the game before they actually get to see Heavensward? 

 

Try selling this concept to someone who has a slight interest in FF but doesn't know much about it, and see the sort of reaction you get.  Yes, there are fans of it, since its related to FF's single-player style story line.  That's fine and good, everyone's entitled to their opinion, and perhaps its a good thing that someone's made a game like this that prefers such heavy gating of accessibility. 

 

I don't (I prefer to get to play the game doing fun stuff with friends).  That doesn't mean i think everything should be given to players on a silver platter.  That doesn't mean I think people who buy the expansion should start at level 60 with raid gear.  I don't even mind if the new classes are gated to high levels.  I simply think that they're asking so much of new players before they can take part in anything current, that they're going to turn many away.

[Warren Castille]

They forced people into doing them during 2.1's slog, along with Qarn. They also serve a general purpose of introducing people to MMO concepts: Using switches and items, avoiding bad things, prioritizing adds, learning how to play your job.

 

Regarding new players, it has to be one or the other. We're either championing these poor, downtrodden newbs who will be abandoned by 2.x people by bitching about how unfair it is for them to do the story, or we're expecting them to... You know. Meet new people. Find friends. Make linkshells...? You know, the MMO thing.

 

Trufax: Locking new jobs behind 3.0 gates only inhibits people wanting alts. It doesn't harm them. It doesn't harm new players. The boogieman of "Oh, well what if someone only wanted to play AST and they can't and they don't buy the game?"

 

GOOD. That person wasn't leveling THM for Switftcast anyway.

[Aya]

Regarding new players, it has to be one or the other. We're either championing these poor, downtrodden newbs who will be abandoned by 2.x people by bitching about how unfair it is for them to do the story, or we're expecting them to... You know. Meet new people. Find friends. Make linkshells...? You know, the MMO thing.

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. The vast majority of the MSQ is single player, what does any of what you said have to do with that?  It will be even more annoying for them than it was for us, its true, but struggling through the 8 man thingies is only going to be a small portion of the overall effort they're required to undertake before they can see Ishgard or any of the new stuff.

[Warren Castille]

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. The vast majority of the MSQ is single player, what does any of what you said have to do with that?  It will be even more annoying for them than it was for us, its true, but struggling through the 8 man thingies is only going to be a small portion of the overall effort they're required to undertake before they can see Ishgard or any of the new stuff.

 

It's single player until you get thrown into dungeons. The posited argument is that there's going to nobody running these dungeons and that'll strand new players. This is despite the fact that there will be NEW players to run the content with, first and foremost, and that secondly we don't know if there's going to be some "MSQ roulette" added to the Duty Finder to help alleviate this. Remember, there wasn't always Low Roulette! People complained a lot on official channels to get a fix for this and that's part of what Roulettes offered on debut, and it helped a lot.

 

New players stranded will find ways to complete content, even if it means shouting for help. I guess I just don't understand it personally; I was a new player in a lot of MMOs post-launch and never had trouble finding my footing. It just takes some effort and willingness to-

 

OH. I get it now.

[Melkire]

Regarding new players, it has to be one or the other. We're either championing these poor, downtrodden newbs who will be abandoned by 2.x people by bitching about how unfair it is for them to do the story, or we're expecting them to... You know. Meet new people. Find friends. Make linkshells...? You know, the MMO thing.

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. The vast majority of the MSQ is single player, what does any of what you said have to do with that?  It will be even more annoying for them than it was for us, its true, but struggling through the 8 man thingies is only going to be a small portion of the overall effort they're required to undertake before they can see Ishgard or any of the new stuff.

 

You mean less? Because new players are getting buffed experience, more gear from quests, and other perks that are meant to ease the trip through ARR, according to recent developer commentary... new players will have an easier time, not a harder one. Time commitment won't be any worse than it was for us, either.

[Aya]

You mean less? Because new players are getting buffed experience, more gear from quests... they'll have an easier time, not a harder one. Time commitment won't be any worse than it was for us, either.

It will be a harder time (I suspect, but its too complicated and unclear to say for sure) to get your eight man clears for the MSQ for new players in Heavensward than it was for us.  That's all I said.

 

Edit: Okay, all I meant to say!

[Addison]

Yes, but everything you mention occurs in the new expansion.  New players are expected to level up through the old content (usually in a process that is streamlined and made easier by the expansion) and then hit the gear, rep, etc. grinds of the new expansion relatively quickly.

 

Did they not say they were streamlining the process by upping the EXP rewards for the MSQ?

 

Gating new players through the MSQ and all of the content' date=' and time investment that involves in addition to everything mentioned above (this in no way alleviates rep grinding, gear, etc) is rough!  Leveling to 50 isn't enough, you still have to complete [b']all[/b] of the level 50 MSQ content, and all of the pre-50 MSQ content.  Alt characters (such as Warren's) can do this quickly (but still tediously) by skipping all of the dialogue and cut scenes, is that what we expect of brand new players as well, or should they just anticipate a several month time lag from when they start the game before they actually get to see Heavensward?

 

Why not? Everyone else did it. Why should new players like me get a free ride? You know the biggest complaint I hear from veterans in other games? "This guy joined the game 2 weeks ago, has a max level character, and doesn't know jack shit about the mechanics."

 

Where are all these new players complaining about this? I haven't seen them. Perhaps you can point them out to me, because all I keep seeing in this thread is veteran players speaking for new players, as if they understand what it's like rolling a new character with minimal knowledge of the game.

 

And they simply don't. You're talking from your experiences as someone who's been there/done that. You don't want to do the MSQ because you've done it. You've seen it. You know what happens. That's fine. But new players haven't done the MSQ. That's why they're called new players. Who is it really harming that new players need to do the MSQ to access later content? Certainly not you. So what's the issue here?

 

Try selling this concept to someone who has a slight interest in FF but doesn't know much about it' date=' and see the sort of reaction you get.  Yes, there are fans of it, since its related to FF's single-player style story line.  That's fine and good, everyone's entitled to their opinion, and perhaps its a [b']good[/b] thing that someone's made a game like this that prefers such heavy gating of accessibility. 

 

Sell what concept? That there's an entire world to explore that's still relevant for new players? That new players don't have to feel rushed towards expansion content because SE made the decision to keep the core game relevant for anyone who happened to say "Ya know, I'm gonna give FFXIV a go." Yea...that's utterly dreadful. How dare they?

[shotgunbadger]

I'm legitimately sorry I brought anything about this up, that was clearly a mistake.

[Aya]

Did they not say they were streamlining the process by upping the EXP rewards for the MSQ?

Yes? But its not exactly relevant since they're requiring MSQ completion which will be significantly more work than leveling to 50.

 

Why not? Everyone else did it. Why should new players like me get a free ride? You know the biggest complaint I hear from veterans in other games? "This guy joined the game 2 weeks ago, has a max level character, and doesn't know jack shit about the mechanics."

Free ride?  Free ride? What's a free ride in a GAME?  Trust me, anyone who doesn't understand the mechanics by level 50 isn't going to suddenly learn them because they completed the MSQ.

 

Where are all these new players complaining about this? I haven't seen them. Perhaps you can point them out to me, because all I keep seeing in this thread is veteran players speaking for new players, as if they understand what it's like rolling a new character with minimal knowledge of the game.

Friends from other MMOs and RL that I've talked to about FF.  I always make a point to mention the MSQ and how it gates gameplay, and so far at least, its earned universal eye-brow-raising (my initial response when I found out about it too).  I don't know many FF players, and maybe that's the problem, as I've said elsewhere I am not the target audience of this game.  It shouldn't be surprising that I don't exactly care for it, but that doesn't mean that my opinion is wrong or somehow invalid or unworthy of expression. 

 

And they simply don't. You're talking from your experiences as someone who's been there/done that. You don't want to do the MSQ because you've done it. You've seen it. You know what happens. That's fine. But new players haven't done the MSQ. That's why they're called new players. Who is it really harming that new players need to do the MSQ to access later content? Certainly not you. So what's the issue here?

Since I joined the game its been my least favorite part of it.  That just hasn't changed!  I'm just really disappointed that new players don't get to hit level 50, and then start on the 50+ MSQ separate from the 1-50 MSQ from ARR.

 

Sell what concept? That there's an entire world to explore that's still relevant for new players? That new players don't have to feel rushed towards expansion content because SE made the decision to keep the core game relevant for anyone who happened to say "Ya know, I'm gonna give FFXIV a go." Yea...that's utterly dreadful. How dare they?

Its not exploration.  Its a straight-jacket, linear, ridiculously long quest chain behind which almost every relevant game feature is gated.  The world to explore is entirely independent and separate from the gormless entity known as the MSQ.  I do realize that some people like the MSQ for whatever reason.  It does have its moments.  But I don't think its fair to Final Fantasy to somehow sell it as being the game, or the game world itself.  It is far far from it.

 

Edit: I also think it should be completely accessible to players who wish to complete it. I just don't think it should be required. Reaching level 50 should be sufficient to begin Heavensward content, and I think many people who try Heavensward who didn't play ARR will expect that. Some won't mind the surprise, others will.

[Warren Castille]

All of this discontent evaporates if you look at HW was a sequel that carries over your save data.

 

...did no one else play Suikoden 2?

[Aya]

All of this discontent evaporates if you look at HW was a sequel that carries over your save data.

 

...did no one else play Suikoden 2?

That's what Osric's been saying, actually.  To paraphrase, "The problem is that people view it as an MMO, while the game design is more in sync with a single-player game with MMO elements."

[Warren Castille]

I'm still having trouble finding out what the actual argument/discussion here is now. Is it people wanting to play the whole MSQ as an Au Ra ? Is it people complaining about systems we don't know about yet in the form of 2.0 Trials and story DF content? Is it people complaining about needing to grind to 2.55 completion for alts?

[Aya]

I'm still having trouble finding out what the actual argument/discussion here is now. Is it people wanting to play the whole MSQ as an Au Ra ? Is it people complaining about systems we don't know about yet in the form of 2.0 Trials and story DF content? Is it people complaining about needing to grind to 2.55 completion for alts?

The essence is people disagreeing over whether or not it is a good design decision to require the MSQ to be completed to access Heavensward content.  The most salient frustration seems to be with regard to classes (I think the Au Ra will be open regardless?), but I think for many of us it has more to do with being worried about the reaction of new players, and general dissatisfaction with that kind of design.

 

I was definitely disappointed to hear that Ishgard will be so gated.  I had hoped to make alts for Aya's family in Ishgard, but that's a simple impossibility now - but that's kind of tangential to my dislike of this design decision. Which really has more to do with being unhappy about them doubling down on the element of FF XIV that I like the least

[shotgunbadger]

Literally my entire 'problem' was thinking it was kinda lame the new jobs don't follow the normal job rules and yes for alts I make I have to basically complete one character before I can even start leveling what I may have had in mind for them. I had no idea it was such a fucking offensive statement to some people that would prompt them to tell me how lazy and entitled I am and how I should probably go back to WoW or whatever.

[Warren Castille]

I had no idea it was such a fucking offensive statement to some people that would prompt them to tell me how lazy and entitled I am and how I should probably go back to WoW or whatever.

 

Feel free to report those posts! I don't recall anyone having said that, maybe they already got mod-sniped.

 

I think for many of us it has more to do with being worried about the reaction of new players' date=' and general dissatisfaction with that kind of design.[/quote']

 

I see a lot of people speaking for these unknown souls, and absolutely nobody volunteering to make a linkshell to help newbies and make new friends.

[Dravus]

I'm still having trouble finding out what the actual argument/discussion here is now. Is it people wanting to play the whole MSQ as an Au Ra ? Is it people complaining about systems we don't know about yet in the form of 2.0 Trials and story DF content? Is it people complaining about needing to grind to 2.55 completion for alts?

The essence is people disagreeing over whether or not it is a good design decision to require the MSQ to be completed to access Heavensward content.  The most salient frustration seems to be with regard to classes (I think the Au Ra will be open regardless?), but I think for many of us it has more to do with being worried about the reaction of new players, and general dissatisfaction with that kind of design.

 

I was definitely disappointed to hear that Ishgard will be so gated.  I had hoped to make alts for Aya's family in Ishgard, but that's a simple impossibility now - but that's kind of tangential to my dislike of this design decision.  Which really has more to do with being unhappy about them doubling down on the element of FF XIV that I like the least

 

To be blunt I doubt very many of the people in this thread are familiar enough with game design and economics to state what is and isn't a 'good design decision' when it comes to FFXIV.

 

That's not to suggest that speculation and opinions on the matter is a terrible thing but FFXIV has been steadily growing since launch and boasts some very passionate developers who know exactly what they are doing.

 

If and when FFXIV begins bleeding subscriptions and a significant amount of people claim to be bored of the game then, yes - the complains may be more legitimate. As of now, however, it seems like it's really just a vocal minority grumbling in what has become quite the echo chamber.

 

The people who stick around obviously enjoy other aspects of the game enough to endure the perceived problems. If they don't feel it's worthwhile to endure minor inconveniences then it begs the question as to why they remain.

 

When I stopped enjoying WoW due to the negatives outweighing the positives I stopped playing and sought out something else. There's currently more MMO's on the market than ever before - each with a fairly decent population - so there's by no means a lack of viable alternatives out there.

[shotgunbadger]

I have no idea how you can call this 'quite the little echochamber' when it's 90% people saying that it's good and get over it and they leveled fast so everyone else can and hey you can always go back to WoW (because thinking one thing is not perfect means we hate everything, obv). Like, is this seriously where the discussion is, either you like literally everything or shut up you're not qualified to have an opinion there are other MMOs?

[Aya]

Its amazing the reaction you get for simple disagreement with something in the way the game is made.

[TheLastCandle]

I understand the frustration, because I have an alt that needed to be leveled through all of the ARR content as well. But the fact of the matter is, design decisions aren't made with alts in mind. Outside of those of us who RP (who make up such a minuscule portion of the player base that it wouldn't make sense to cater to us) there really is no reason to have an alt in FFXIV. So, instead, they offer bonus Fantasia potions in case people want to change to the new race.

 

The complaint about the new classes not being available to new players, though, is a valid one. But since they're all apparently tied to the storyline in Ishgard, there's no solution for it at this stage, mere weeks from release. Hopefully they'll receive some quality feedback from those players so that they can remedy this for the next job expansion.

[Melkire]

[Admin Hardhat]

 

This discussion seems to have run its course and hit just about every point on the "these are questionable decisions Square-Enix has made for Heavensward" checklist, despite the original post only referring to the i90 requirement needed to enter Steps of Faith.

 

For that reason, I'll be closing this thread. If there's a specific aspect to the Heavensward expansion that folks would like to discuss (the new jobs, the new areas, Au Ra, etc.), then I encourage them to open new threads for those topics. Less chance that way of people shouting over each other to be heard. I apologize in advance if this isn't a course of action that people like, but this thread is on its 28th page now. I'd be very surprised if we would've heard anything new here.

 

[/Admin Hardhat]