Warrior of Light, Hydaelyn's Chosen, and Bringer of Light

[Melkire]

I'd like folks thoughts on this. This might also be a helpful thread to continue the discussion started here.

 

Here's my understanding of the titles:

 

1. The adventurers present at Carteneau who were sent forward in time by Louisoux are considered "Warriors of Light," per 2.0 starting MSQ (see: banquet scenes, Cid's special 2.0 dialogue for 1.x players).

 

2. Those adventurers and other individuals seen in 2.0's introduction to Hydaelyn after the MC acquires his/her first crystal are known and referred to as "Hydaelyn's Chosen" frequently throughout 2.x and 3.0. This seems to correspond so well to those who possess the Echo that the two seem almost interchangeable; if you are one of Hydaelyn's Chosen, you likely possess the Echo. In any case, that there are many of these individuals, and that not all of them are adventurers, is something confirmed both by Minfilia's existence and a 3.0 MSQ lore drop courtesy of Iceheart and others.

 

3. There is some ambiguity over whether the MC of 2x./3.0 is one of the Warriors of Light from 1.x or not. This is to accommodate the difference between 1.x players and 2.x-only players. In any event, the 2.x/3.0 MC is eventually acknowledged as a Warrior of Light, even if only as a new one. This makes it seem that "Warrior of Light" is more a title than anything.

 

4. The companions of the 2.x/3.0 WoL MC who aid him or her at various points throughout the MSQ - the assault on Castrum Meridianum and the Praetorium, for example - are acknowledged as highly-skilled fellow adventurers. It is heavily implied that these particular individuals are also Hydaelyn's Chosen. Whether or not they are Warriors of Light is up in the air. They are NOT, however, the Bringer of Light, which we're getting to right... now.

 

5. The title of "Bringer of Light" is specifically given to the 2.x/3.0 WoL MC, and canonically speaking there is only one such individual. This also aligns well with the 3.0 MSQ spoiler that...

 

 

There is a specific Warrior of Darkness who has his own allied band of adventurers.

 

 

 

EDIT: I've avoided touching the subject of "Hydaelyn's Blessing" because I'm not sure whether it's ever definitively stated exactly WHAT that refers to: whether it's the Echo, or the Bringer of Light's enormous capabilities that Midgardsormr seals away, or just Hydaelyn going "YO, DAWG, YOU'RE MY HOMIE." See Sounsyy's post here for more.

 

 

EDIT 2:

 

A useful diagram drafted up by an anonymous soul. Blame them for anything wrong with it.

 

[Sigil.9054]

Good information. My character (A newbie as of 2.0) was referred to in a story as a WoL, which I thought was odd, so this post is exactly what I needed to clear that up.

 

Would you mind linking the lore drops you mentioned? I'd love to read more on the matter and whatever else is covered.

[Kage]

I made a thread about some of this earlier in the year after the 2.5? patch. Essentially when Midgardsomr comes in etc.

 

http://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthread.php?tid=9753

 

 

I haven't had time to parse but there's also this thread when I asked the same thing on the official forums.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/215732-What-are-the-differences-between-the-Echo-and-having-Hydaelyn-s-Blessing-Spoilers

[FreelanceWizard]

Yeah, that's pretty much how I view it. You have increasingly small subsets of people until you get to the One and Only Hero, the Adventurer/the Bringer of Light/the Warrior of Light/the Awesome Dude of Awesomeness. (That last one may be dramatic license on my part.)

 

Remember: player characters are a tiny subset of the overall Eorzean populace. Yes, playing a PC with the Echo who's also a highly skilled adventurer means you're playing something rare among Eorzeans, but not among player characters, since they're already rare.

 

The question of whether the Echo is the same thing as being Hydaelyn's Chosen is an interesting one. One read of the cutscenes suggests that they are, in fact, the same thing; Minfilia refers specifically to no longer hearing Her voice towards the end of 2.x, and Midgardsormr notes how Her powers are waning and therefore strikes a new bargain (though the nature of the bargain, and whether it applies just to The Adventurer or to all of Hydaelyn's Chosen, isn't clear to me, at least).

 

However, it's interesting that others with the Echo, such as the Sahagin elder who summons Leviathan and Ysayle, never refer to hearing Hydaelyn's voice. The Ascians also sometimes talk about the Echo and how everyone's lack of understanding of it will be their downfall. So, I wonder if this is a case of Hydaelyn granting the Echo, but it's not what those who have it believe it to be?

 

 

[Virella]

Interesting Topic!

 

However I got the bring a few things up for speculation, although I am going to spoiler this just in case;

 

 

Is Estinien an Echo gifted individual as well? He speaks with Hreavaglr when the greatwyrm is clearly talking in the tongue of the Dravanians.

 

And with him turning into Nidhogg. HMM. HMMMM. Count me a bit confused currently?

 

 

&

 

The Church speaks of maddening whispers by the Dravanian Horde, how people turn to heresy. Would this mean Ishgardians possess the Echo on a large scale base?

[Gegenji]

Interesting enough, although I am going to spoiler this just in case;

 

 

Is Estinien an Echo gifted individual as well? He speaks with Hreavaglr when the greatwyrm is clearly talking in the tongue of the Dravanians.

 

And with him turning into Nidhogg. HMM. HMMMM. Count me a bit confused currently?

 

 

 

Also

 

The Church speaks of maddening whispers by the Dravanian Horde, would this mean Ishgardians possess the Echo on a large scale base?

 

I would attribute that to being an ability of some of the Dravanians, not that a large population like that has the Echo. I believe the MSQ moment you speak of also makes a point of explaining that briefly.

[Melkire]

The question of whether the Echo is the same thing as being Hydaelyn's Chosen is an interesting one. One read of the cutscenes suggests that they are, in fact, the same thing; Minfilia refers specifically to no longer hearing Her voice towards the end of 2.x, and Midgardsormr notes how Her powers are waning and therefore strikes a new bargain (though the nature of the bargain, and whether it applies just to The Adventurer or to all of Hydaelyn's Chosen, isn't clear to me, at least).

 

However, it's interesting that others with the Echo, such as the Sahagin elder who summons Leviathan and Ysayle, never refer to hearing Hydaelyn's voice. The Ascians also sometimes talk about the Echo and how everyone's lack of understanding of it will be their downfall. So, I wonder if this is a case of Hydaelyn granting the Echo, but it's not what those who have it believe it to be?

 

 

 

The following constitute spoilers very late in the 3.0 MSQ line. Do not open the following unless you have completed 3.0 MSQ (read: you've seen the credits scroll).

 

New 3.0 dialogue, in conjunction with Midgardsormr's 2.55 JP dialogue, makes the "bargain" pretty clear.

 

Hydaelyn protecting the MC is what prompts Midgardsormr to give the MC the chance to prove themselves. He seals off the MC's connection to Hydaelyn, as opposed to stripping the MC of it entirely; this is clarified late in 3.0 after the MC speaks with Tiamat. Midgardsormr specifically mentions that the walls he'd built around the MC have been torn down by that point.

 

Essentially, Midgardsormr spends most of 2.55 onward, all the way through to the end of 3.0, testing the main character's worthiness. You'll recall that the intent in originally approaching him was, in part, an attempt to pre-emptively avert an assault on Ishgard. So he chooses to seal the MC off from Hydaelyn's power (but not necessarily all of her gifts; the power of the Echo remains to the MC) and observe the individual in order to deem whether or not they are a suitable candidate to lead an effort in bringing about peace between Man and Dragon.

 

 

 

As for the Echo: if you'll follow the links Kage and I made to an older thread, Sounsyy references lore that establishes that the Echo is not exclusive to Hydaelyn's Chosen, though it can be surmised that all of Hydaelyn's Chosen likely possess the Echo.

 

 

Interesting Topic!

 

However I got the bring a few things up for speculation, although I am going to spoiler this just in case;

 

 

Is Estinien an Echo gifted individual as well? He speaks with Hreavaglr when the greatwyrm is clearly talking in the tongue of the Dravanians.

 

It's my guess that...

 

The Eye might gift Estinien with the ability to understand and comprehend dragon speech, as it serves as a very personal and intimate link between whosever possesses the eye and Nidhogg. Alternatively, the Azure Dragoon might have had the lifetime experience necessary to understand dragon speech, or else Hraesvelgr, Hraesvelgr's children, and Nidhogg himself are all very good at making themselves understood.

 

As for Estinien turning into Nidhogg, it's explicitly explained throughout the story:

 

1. Most if not all of Ishgard and her peoples are descended from the four knights of Thordan I that later formed the Four Noble Houses. Estinien himself is likely among their number.

 

2. Since the four knights partook of (read: feasted on, ate, etc.) Ratatoskr's eyes, they and their entire lineage are susceptible to draconic influence. This manifests itself in the following way: partaking of dragon blood will result in transformations into draconic forms as demonstrated numerous times by the "heretics".

 

3. Whosoever bears an Eye of Nidhogg is in danger and susceptible to draconic influence and possession. The bearer needs to steel themselves constantly against Nidhogg's influence and seething hatred. Nidhogg himself mentions that, while holding both Eyes, Estinien lowered his guard by allowing himself the luxury of dreaming after a time in which he might yield up his burden and take comfort in a normal life. This "lowering of Estinien's guard," a.k.a. not acting like a complete jerkward all the time, coupled with Estinien's weakness during the lv 50 DRG class quest is what allows Nidhogg the opportunity to claim Estinien for himself. Midgardsormr further explains that Nidhogg has claimed Estinien's body "as his vessel," presumably in a similar manner to how the Sahagin chieftain stole the bodies of his fellow Sahagin. Whether or not Estinien himself survives this process isn't explicitly stated or explained.

 

 

And with him turning into Nidhogg. HMM. HMMMM. Count me a bit confused currently?

 

[Virella]

Interesting enough, although I am going to spoiler this just in case;

 

 

Is Estinien an Echo gifted individual as well? He speaks with Hreavaglr when the greatwyrm is clearly talking in the tongue of the Dravanians.

 

And with him turning into Nidhogg. HMM. HMMMM. Count me a bit confused currently?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also

 

The Church speaks of maddening whispers by the Dravanian Horde, would this mean Ishgardians possess the Echo on a large scale base?

 

I would attribute that to being an ability of some of the Dravanians, not that a large population like that has the Echo. I believe the MSQ moment you speak of also makes a point of explaining that briefly.

Hmm. Going to have to rewatch the cutscenes, I will report back soon if I can find something! I think indeed something was said at one point, either in Keeper of the Lake, or when you speak with that one other dragon.

[Aysun]

That little graphic is the best way I've seen it described so far! Would be fun to use it to describe our little snowflakes, especially us 1.0 peoples.  Like, Aysun would fall into black, red, orange, and green. Silly, but to the point.

[Flashhelix]

I seem to remember at least one or two offhand references about dragoons being able to understand dragonspeak, but I wouldn't know the source, most likely quest text from the 30-50 DRG stuff.

[FreelanceWizard]

I guess my larger point was that it's clear that the Echo holds more mysteries than have yet been explained, including what it can do and exactly where it comes from. No one but the Ascians really seems to know much about it, and they're sure not talking. The contradictions in the various lore bits suggest that the story behind it is a lot more complicated than we know thus far...

 

Hmm. Going to have to rewatch the cutscenes, I will report back soon if I can find something! I think indeed something was said at one point, either in Keeper of the Lake, or when you speak with that one other dragon.

 

When you're talking with Hraesvalgr the first time, Alphinaud (who doesn't have the Echo) comments that while he was hearing words in Dravanian, he could understand them as if they were his native tongue. He surmises this is because of the great wyrm's considerable force of will.

 

 

[-no longer matters-]

I would imagine anyone that RPed an adventurer that wanted to RP Dungeons, raids and trails (with a consenting RP group of course.) would have to at the very least have the Echo so they can't be tempered by the primals.

[Melkire]

I would imagine anyone that RPed an adventurer that wanted to RP Dungeons, raids and trails (with a consenting RP group of course.) would have to at the very least have the Echo so they can't be tempered by the primals.

 

Not so. Dungeons don't have any lore which explicitly or implicitly state that Echo is required. Any trials involving primals would either require Echo, a lore-compliant substitute, or a roleplay-contrived substitute (see: Dogberry and Stormwind's Primal Fight events, where if I'm not mistaken a magitek device devised for the purpose of the RP session as introduced as a means of justifying why folks weren't going to get tempered).

[FreelanceWizard]

I would imagine anyone that RPed an adventurer that wanted to RP Dungeons, raids and trails (with a consenting RP group of course.) would have to at the very least have the Echo so they can't be tempered by the primals.

 

Technically, you'd only need the Echo to fight primals. Most everything else is within the bounds of what a skilled adventurer could plausibly do, allowing a certain degree of finesse to make the content appropriately generic to do it IC (it's not Tioman you're fighting, it's Some Other Dragon; it's not the same part of the Tam-Tara Deepcroft each time, it's different sections of it and it's a popular place for dark rituals given what it is; and so on).

 

EDIT: Also, note that Tempering isn't a guarantee. The Company of Heroes and the Immortal Flames both used what I like to call the Brannigan Strategy to fell primals -- send in wave after wave of your own men, using later waves to fight the Tempered from the previous one. It's wasteful, sure, but the battle of attrition eventually takes the primal down.

[Virella]

I guess my larger point was that it's clear that the Echo holds more mysteries than have yet been explained, including what it can do and exactly where it comes from. No one but the Ascians really seems to know much about it, and they're sure not talking. The contradictions in the various lore bits suggest that the story behind it is a lot more complicated than we know thus far...

 

Hmm. Going to have to rewatch the cutscenes, I will report back soon if I can find something! I think indeed something was said at one point, either in Keeper of the Lake, or when you speak with that one other dragon.

 

When you're talking with Hraesvalgr the first time, Alphinaud (who doesn't have the Echo) comments that while he was hearing words in Dravanian, he could understand them as if they were his native tongue. He surmises this is because of the great wyrm's considerable force of will.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: Actually...

 

Dragonspeak by Fernehalwes

 

So, it is safe to say that while a non-dragon may endeavor to study the dragon language, it would be nearly impossible in their short (compared to a dragon) lifespan to even begin to fully grasp the intricacies of it. And, because of this, the only way a non-dragon would be able to understand a dragon is if the dragon chose to speak in the non-dragon’s language, or the non-dragon was blessed with the power of the Echo.

 

Edit: What brings me to another topic!

 

How old is the Echo? If indeed the Ishgardian lot possess the echo; because

 

 

If Shiva could parley with Hraesvelgr, she must have had the echo already? Unless he, of course, spoke the tongue of men before that already; but judging from his personality, he seems to speak only in the Dravanian tongue?

 

 

Just vague theory crafting at this point, but interesting non the less

[FreelanceWizard]

That's true, but in that scene, neither of those things are the case. I wonder if Fernehalwes simply wasn't aware of that section of dialogue at the time?

[Virella]

That's true, but in that scene, neither of those things are the case. I wonder if Fernehalwes simply wasn't aware of that section of dialogue at the time?

Well that Dragonspeak article got released before Heavensward came out; so I imagine he is very much aware with what direction he is taking the story in terms of dragons speaking with mortals?

 

 

Alphinaud does not put it to Hreavelgr's greatness? He seems just confused? Perhaps it is not know that Echo causes them to understand dragons? Maybe it was further down the questline, but looking at the cutscene were Alphinaud is confused, he is just that, and quickly after Iceheart starts speaking. And she is one of Hyda's chosen if I recall correctly, and thus she should be possessing the Echo as well. Maybe I've missed a part, and it is further down the line he comments onto it. I will try seeing if I can conjure it up in my screenshot folders, and dig trough more of the cutscenes.

 

 

Edit:

 

 

Could the Ishgardians not been 'gifted' their echo part when they feasted upon Ratatoskr? BAH QUESTIONS, QUESTIONS. Because dragons have a connection with Hyda for certain. As well with the MQS pointing out Ishgardians got some powers, and it never got pointed out exactly WHAT it was; perhaps it it becoming dragons, perhaps gifted to hear dragons by Echo, maybe both? I am not sure what counted as a power gain for them. Blargh. The more I think, the more confused I get.

 

Maybe it is was just simply due to that one mistake they made they got granted a special power to understand dragons; and the Church put it down to heresy; after all they seem pretty keen onto keeping things a secret, and that would be a huge thing. I'm just confused due to well, eh, Fernehalwes telling us it is the Echo what causes it.

 

 

 

 

Questions, questions; and they are probably, maybe, hopefully, are going to be answered sometime! I am probably putting too much thought into it as this point, and it just due that one little mistake the Ishgardians made they have this connection with dragons and understanding them, if Dravanian seduction is indeed having dragons talk to you in their native tongue. Unless they all do it translated, that is an option as well! Guess we got to wait and see

 

By the way, really enjoying the discussion so far!

[Kage]

If Shiva could parley with Hraesvelgr, she must have had the echo already? Unless he, of course, spoke the tongue of men before that already; but judging from his personality, he seems to speak only in the Dravanian tongue?

 

 

 

Just vague theory crafting at this point, but interesting non the less

 

I'm pretty sure Echo is not a "new" thing. Hydaelyn after all is not only 400 years old etc.

[-no longer matters-]

Right I should have been more clear I did mean just the Primals. I wasn't aware there were other ways around tempering though.

 

I am very thankful for this chart, I was contemplating giving War Siren the echo, and have her right it off as some sort of premonition etc. I had decided not to though. This chart however has me now reconsidering that.

[FreelanceWizard]

Right I should have been more clear I did mean just the Primals. I wasn't aware there were other ways around tempering though.

 

Canonically, there's not, other than just being lucky or capitalizing on the arrogance of the primal, it seems; however, a number of RPers have come up with a variety of approaches in the grey areas of lore, including alchemical concoctions, magical shields, magitek devices, and so on.

[Lilia Lia]

The only Warrior of Light RP I ever got involved in was with a member of our FC who wanted to do his Praetorium run IC with all companymates, and we all agreed to play along as though it were a dream he was having and we all played our "dream selves."  It was a ridiculous amount of fun and I would love to do that again. "You can do it, Warrior of Light! Hydaelyn needs you!"

[Caspar]

I like to think of the warrior as the "hero of another story." What the WoL does indirectly affects the world and thus my story, but while my character is an oddity, she's no chosen of Hydaelyn.

[C'io Behkt]

The only Warrior of Light RP I ever got involved in was with a member of our FC who wanted to do his Praetorium run IC with all companymates, and we all agreed to play along as though it were a dream he was having and we all played our "dream selves."  It was a ridiculous amount of fun and I would love to do that again. "You can do it, Warrior of Light! Hydaelyn needs you!"

 

As I play a character with the Echo, I like to imagine that the deeds of the WoL from the MSQ are sometimes witnessed by my character in dreams or glimpses, windows that foster a kind of affinity or empathy for the real "Warrior of Light." As a dream, it then becomes legitimate to skim past the speaking parts and complaining about having to lift boxes yet again.

 

It hasn't come up in roleplay yet, but I figure that if anyone disparages of the WoL to C'io, she'd voice objection. True or not, these dreams lead her to believe in the Bringer of Light.

[111]

Right I should have been more clear I did mean just the Primals. I wasn't aware there were other ways around tempering though.

 

Canonically, there's not, other than just being lucky or capitalizing on the arrogance of the primal, it seems; however, a number of RPers have come up with a variety of approaches in the grey areas of lore, including alchemical concoctions, magical shields, magitek devices, and so on.

 

Though it can be said not all primals are interested in Tempering, and different primals seem to temper at different rates.

 

It seems to be a gradual thing, with different levels. In the beast tribe quests you see someone who was tempered too many times, and sort of just lost all sense of self. It seems that a person of relatively strong will might take longer/retain more of themself during tempering attempts.

[Kaniko Niko]

It seems to me that the act of tempering seems to be a process rather than something that just happens due to a Primal's existence. Way back in the 2.0 content, you were captured and marched off to the Bowl of Embers to be tempered by Ifirit. When you were there, some were being tempered, and some were going to be. There was a line, really. This leads me to believe that tempering is much like indoctrination. Or Stockholm Syndrome. What was stopping Titan and Leviathan from simply just tempering the whole Company of Heroes years ago?

 

Methinks its a matter of willpower. Those in the Company who were tempered were most likely those who had a moment of mental weakness upon realization they were fighting gods—fear of death or worse. In Ifrit's case, he may have been very well playing the Jack Bauer game and marching people into the interrogation room to be broken.