Heresy and you : Just how bad can it get?

[Kurt S.]

Title speaks for itself. I was wondering if any of you fine folk could shed some light on it. The severity of say...

Being accused of inciting heresy among the good people of Ishgard. The scenario is not unlike what happens to Girlphinaud and Bestaru. Except I'm damn well sure Ramen is her own legal team in the tribunal. If it even gets there.

 

Since I'd like to say Ramen got apprehended in Ishgard doing a favor a friend. Which involved asking the wrong questions.

 

Again do they get locked for all eternity or executed? Can the right to invoke trial by combat by anyone or is that a right reserved for just the good people of Ishgard? She is a black mage so nuking her way out isnt exactly impossible but I dunno, she'd be a fugitive, also I wanna roleplay a court proceeding....

 

 

But that involves me reaching out to Ishgardian roleplayers to fill in the roles..i.e. random noble knight apprehending her, judge judy and executioner, maybe some other ishgardians who there when she 'incited heresy' but I digress. Hell maybe even a bunch of lower Ul'dahn families that might have had ties to the Reeve (because she isnt so much as Ramen Spencer but Alexis Reeve) family to act as her legal team(lolololololol I wish) maybe champions for both prosecutor and defendant sides if it goes the way of Tyrion Lannister wherein you keep calm and demand trial by combat (because she doesn't really want to incinerate the knight in two seconds if she can help it, of course after disabling him and leeching the aether off everyone and thing in the room))

 

 

 

At any rate this is just to see if keeping her active is still feasible or I retire her and replace or liquidate her assets to be transferred over to Kath.

[FreelanceWizard]

It seems that the right to trial by combat can be invoked by anyone. That makes sense to me, at least, since it meshes with the "middle ages-esque theocracy" feel of Ishgard and their belief in Halone. I can definitely envision the Halonic priesthood feeling that trial by combat is the most "fair" and sanctified adjudication, since those blessed by the Fury will surely succeed.

 

As for the actual proceedings, historically, canon law proceedings for heresy have tended to focus on "torture the person until they confess." Given Ishgard's approach to heretics in the field (chuck 'em off a cliff: if they fall to their death, they weren't heretics, and if they survive or fly away, they clearly were), I suspect "justice" in the city is equally harsh and, by our modern standards, unfair.

 

 

[Caspar]

A lot of unfair medieval justice systems used testimony-based judicial methods rather than actual evidence gathering as in our modern methods. Also, because of the class structure, the normal trial probably rates the testimony of a noble higher than that of a commoner.

 

 

And of course, since Ishgard has been besieged for years, those in the power structure know that the alternative of Trial By Combat won't be selected very often by the commoners. They starve constantly in the Brume, without the high calorie diet to become strong fighters, and since they've been at war for so long, most of the skilled noble houses and upper-class citizens have at least some connection to the military elite, with the best equipment and training.

 

 

I don't know how accurate these ideas are, but they are worth considering.

[Sylentmana]

I'm probably wrong but:

 

 

 

I thought that by the end of the expansion this would become a moot point?

 

[Virella]

How did I miss this thread?

 

I think Ishgard does not really care about the average hobo trying to invoke trail by combat. Think it is more so a thing for people with some status/reputation, nobles, known faces ect.

 

Heck. The use CHILDREN to get 'valid' heresy claims with trading them candy.

 

Dabbling into heresy roleplay is either having your character run for their lives before arrested, or otherwise, well, unless you are an Ishgard noble, or have some other high status in Ishgard, the only logical thing to do there is to say your goodbyes, because execution seems to be inevitable.

 

I'm probably wrong but:

 

 

 

I thought that by the end of the expansion this would become a moot point?

 

 

 

 

Not really*. War is far from over mind you. If anything the Ishgardians know how dangerous the heretics are with dragonblood. One has to for example just to spike the water supplies; and you got the city in fires in a matter of hours no doubt.

* assuming you meant 3.0 MQS ending

 

[-no longer matters-]

You'd have to RP out of the timeline for this...

 

Because at the MSQ the whole heresy stuff is pretty much over and The Ishgardians are pledged to peace with the Dragons by Aymeric.

 

[Virella]

You'd have to RP out of the timeline for this...

 

Because at the MSQ the whole heresy stuff is pretty much over and The Ishgardians are pledged to peace with the Dragons by Aymeric.

 

 

 

 

 

Wrong. There is no sudden peace; even Midgar himself says the war is far from over, and it will take generations to make proper amends. And we got a 2-eyed Nidhogg on the lose. In truth, the whole war became more shittier. No godlike Archbishop to defend them. And I imagine the city is probably going to be more divided then ever from this point on.

Just because Hreavaglr(spelling) and Midgar wants peace (and the Hreavaglr more being w/e), Nidhog is far, faaaaaar from having his rage tempered. It probably got only fuelled by the actions the Ishgardians took against him in the MQS.

Pledging it is a completely different thing then actually you know, having peace. Heretics will still be the enemy. They are probably become more lenient on heresy claims, but that is about it.

 

I really scratch my head at people thinking the war is suddenly over with the dragons?

 

[-no longer matters-]

You'd have to RP out of the timeline for this...

 

Because at the MSQ the whole heresy stuff is pretty much over and The Ishgardians are pledged to peace with the Dragons by Aymeric.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wrong. There is no sudden peace; even Midgar himself says the war is far from over, and it will take generations to make proper amends. And we got a 2-eyed Nidhogg on the lose. In truth, the whole war became more shittier. No godlike Archbishop to defend them. And I imagine the city is probably going to be more divided then ever from this point on.

Just because Hreavaglr(spelling) and Midgar wants peace (and the Hreavaglr more being w/e), Nidhog is far, faaaaaar from having his rage tempered. It probably got only fuelled by the actions the Ishgardians took against him in the MQS.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No sudden peace, yes I agree that won't happen.  However the holysee as it was is essentially finished it's lie exposed. I highly doubt even with the coming conflict with Nidhogg/Estinien coming, that the Inquisition will still be functioning not only is it now common knowledge everyone has Dragon Blood in them essentially, most of the Heretics followed Iceheart, and I'm sure they'll follow her wishes. Really the inquisition still existing after the lies of the whole belief system being exposed, or even the current heretics waging open warfare would be a slap to the face to everything that was sacrificed to get to where they were. I highly doubt the Inquisition will still be active at least in it's former incarnation.

 

Of course we're both Lore theory-crafting until the next parts of the story get released.

 

[Virella]

You'd have to RP out of the timeline for this...

 

Because at the MSQ the whole heresy stuff is pretty much over and The Ishgardians are pledged to peace with the Dragons by Aymeric.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wrong. There is no sudden peace; even Midgar himself says the war is far from over, and it will take generations to make proper amends. And we got a 2-eyed Nidhogg on the lose. In truth, the whole war became more shittier. No godlike Archbishop to defend them. And I imagine the city is probably going to be more divided then ever from this point on.

Just because Hreavaglr(spelling) and Midgar wants peace (and the Hreavaglr more being w/e), Nidhog is far, faaaaaar from having his rage tempered. It probably got only fuelled by the actions the Ishgardians took against him in the MQS.

 

 

 

 

 

 

No sudden peace, yes I agree that won't happen.  However the holysee as it was is essentially finished it's lie exposed. I highly doubt even with the coming conflict with Nidhogg/Estinien coming, that the Inquisition will still be functioning, most of the Heretics followed Iceheart, and I'm sure they'll follow her wishes. Really the inquisition still existing after the lies of the whole belief system being exposed, or even the current heretics waging open warfare would be a slap to the face to everything that was sacrificed to get to where they were. I highly doubt the Inquisition will still be active at least in it's former incarnation.

 

 

 

 

The heretics have nowhere else to go after Iceheart's death. And I really have a hard time believing that she accepted all what was going on with the heretics, and still lots of crap behind her back happened; not sure if you've read it the DRG storyline, but they force dragonblood down people's throats to turn them forcefully. They try to kill off innocents. They are really not blameless and innocent. Ishgard's war is full with grey areas, and not just black and white.

With Iceheart out of the way, they just have Nidhogg's leadership to listen to now. The only reason they stopped is that they thought Nidhogg was dead after all, and thought they had lost the war.

 

Inquisition was not just there to make sure the truth is not being exposed, but also to deal with threats; preventing heretics killing people one way or the other.

 

Surely they will change, however saying that heresy claims will just be gone overnight? Eh, that's just silly due to them still being the enemy, and still being a threat to Ishgard.

 

Unless heretics cease the exist, I highly doubt the inquisition would just poof over night. They will remain to be a serious threat to Ishgard's population, even if the truth is out.

 

In truth I'm rooting for civil war to break out due to this, but that's another topic completely

 

[-no longer matters-]

You'd have to RP out of the timeline for this...

 

Because at the MSQ the whole heresy stuff is pretty much over and The Ishgardians are pledged to peace with the Dragons by Aymeric.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wrong. There is no sudden peace; even Midgar himself says the war is far from over, and it will take generations to make proper amends. And we got a 2-eyed Nidhogg on the lose. In truth, the whole war became more shittier. No godlike Archbishop to defend them. And I imagine the city is probably going to be more divided then ever from this point on.

Just because Hreavaglr(spelling) and Midgar wants peace (and the Hreavaglr more being w/e), Nidhog is far, faaaaaar from having his rage tempered. It probably got only fuelled by the actions the Ishgardians took against him in the MQS.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No sudden peace, yes I agree that won't happen.  However the holysee as it was is essentially finished it's lie exposed. I highly doubt even with the coming conflict with Nidhogg/Estinien coming, that the Inquisition will still be functioning, most of the Heretics followed Iceheart, and I'm sure they'll follow her wishes. Really the inquisition still existing after the lies of the whole belief system being exposed, or even the current heretics waging open warfare would be a slap to the face to everything that was sacrificed to get to where they were. I highly doubt the Inquisition will still be active at least in it's former incarnation.

 

 

 

 

 

The heretics have nowhere else to go after Iceheart's death. And I really have a hard time believing that she accepted all what was going on with the heretics, and still lots of crap behind her back happened; not sure if you've read it the DRG storyline, but they force dragonblood down people's throats to turn them forcefully. They try to kill off innocents. They are really not blameless and innocent. Ishgard's war is full with grey areas, and not just black and white.

With Iceheart out of the way, they just have Nidhogg's leadership to listen to now. The only reason they stopped is that they thought Nidhogg was dead after all, and thought they had lost the war.

 

Inquisition was not just there to make sure the truth is not being exposed, but also to deal with threats; preventing heretics killing people one way or the other.

 

Surely they will change, however saying that heresy claims will just be gone overnight? Eh, that's just silly due to them still being the enemy, and still being a threat to Ishgard.

 

Unless heretics cease the exist, I highly doubt the inquisition would just poof over night. They will remain to be a serious threat to Ishgard's population, even if the truth is out.

 

In truth I'm rooting for civil war to break out due to this, but that's another topic completely

 

 

 

I think if the inquisition keeps going anywhere near to what they were it would be extremely counter productive to the peace they're trying to broker. If you don't break the cycle of hate as early as possible in a regime change it will never go away. Like I said at this current moment neither of us are wrong and we're completely theory-crafting what will come next. I suppose we'll see in 3.1 or beyond.

 

[Coatleque]

I wouldn't jump to any conclusions on the state of Ishgard just yet.

 

 

 

Remember all the drama at the end of 2.55? How we speculated on Nanamo's death and how Ul'dah would plunge into chaos? Yeah, that was all swept under the rug before the MSQ was even finished.

 

 

[-no longer matters-]

I wouldn't jump to any conclusions on the state of Ishgard just yet.

 

 

 

Remember all the drama at the end of 2.55?  How we speculated on Nanamo's death and how Ul'dah would plunge into chaos?  Yeah, that was all swept under the rug before the MSQ was even finished.

 

 

True that's why I said we're essentially just theory-crafting at this point.

[Virella]

I wouldn't jump to any conclusions on the state of Ishgard just yet.

 

 

 

Remember all the drama at the end of 2.55?  How we speculated on Nanamo's death and how Ul'dah would plunge into chaos?  Yeah, that was all swept under the rug before the MSQ was even finished.

 

 

 

I really felt they dropped the ball on that. But who knows what may happen in the future? I really hope they continue the storyline for Ul'dah, and more importantly. I want to see more of Ilberd. I loved that guy.

 

 

[111]

I play a once convicted heretic, who is now laying (semi) low in Ishgard.

 

She was caught on semi circumstantial evidence, tortured until she confessed to all sorts of things, and exiled.

 

She was going to be killed, but due to her age, family standing, and some peculiarities at her trial, she was branded and exiled instead.

 

Now that tensions are cooling in the city, she has returned. Different people have different reactions, most are happy to put the worst terrors of the inquisition behind them, and give her the benefit of the doubt. Others are not so forgiving.

 

As for her actual heresies, they were never quite terrible. She read forbidden literature, went to forbidden meetings, and even heard lady iceheart speak once! She has given up on most of the things she was told by fellow heretics, understanding they were as much lies as the teachings of Ishgard.

 

Though Evangeline still doesn't believe the gods are real... and that manages to annoy some people.

[Zelmanov]

A levequest has it that a woman showed her birthday present to a knight that was given to her by her parents. That present were Draconian rosaries, that alone was enough to ensure that "Her parents won't be joining her for dinner that night"

 

 

So heresy, when pegged is acted upon quite quickly.

 

 

MIND YOU, post MSQ leads to some issues, 

 

 

while I don't doubt the inquisitors staying around, but I do think that due to the fact that the scholars within St. Reymanaud Cathedral are openly questioning and reassessing the theocratic doctrine, especially when questioning the reigme before was grounds for heresy would definitely mean that the Inquisition in this new era is less about the power and oppression game and reserved to more...grievous acts.

 

[Kurt S.]

So I take it I'll have to figure out the State of Ishgard this takes place in....because I also doubt [redacted] would be so severe after coming into power.

 

Hmmm so the point of asking this could even be rendered moot then. 

 

Ah well thanks for input at least. I'm honestly not sure which state of Ishgard my friend in question is RPing in. So it could be she asked Ramen to poke around, whether it's during or post msq. Which complicates this.

 

So much for something phoenix wright-y or Tyrion on trial...y.

 

I do wonder if outsiders face harsher trial conditions or not. Since everyome is all going on about noble v commoner. Ramen is Ul'dahn not Ishgardian

[Zelmanov]

As for Ishgardian vs Outsider, the rules are unilateral, not harsher, but definitely will appear harsher to an outsider. There is an NPC in Dragonhead that makes it clear to some Adventurers that "Our country so you must abide our rules".  

 

Not to mention how Tataru and Alphinaud were treated.

[LiadansWhisper]

One thing I've honestly wondered for some time is...we know that Gridania and Ishgard have some historical ties.  It's why Ishgard came to Gridania's defense when Ala Mhigo tried to conquer Gridania.  However, Gridania's patron is Nophica, and Ishgard's patron is Halone.

 

Halone and Nophica hate each other.

 

I've always wondered exactly how that works.

[myahele]

I'm pretty sure if the Ishgardians weren't fighting Dragons that they'd end up fighting and/or invading Girdania for it's fertile lands.

 

Culturally, they're kinda the same in that they're both isolationist, but I think there's been some mentions (in 1.0) that Ishgardians would go into Gridanian lands to cut down trees/ poach.

[V'aleera]

Most of what I remember of the lore on the matter suggests that Ishgardians are extremely conscious of the Pact of Gelmorra and their own need to abide by it when in the Shroud. They've had a very fruitful relationship with Gridania for 100 years and I can't see them wanting to damage that.

[Ashe]

Hi, friend! (Are you doing favors for me and Adeya? Will we get to save you from certain death...????)

That's easy....

You'll get pushed off a cliff...though IN Ishgard you may have to go through trial by combat if you so choose to do so. 

 

Post MSQ....others have pointed that out >>

Uuuuh, if you want to involve your FC in some stuff, we can help you work through stuff too. Ishgard (specifically getting arrested and almost killed) is what we're good at!!

 

If this friend is Adeya--we are RPing post MSQ

[Kurt S.]

Hi, friend! (Are you doing favors for me and Adeya? Will we get to save you from certain death...????)

That's easy....

You'll get pushed off a cliff...though IN Ishgard you may have to go through trial by combat if you so choose to do so. 

 

Post MSQ....others have pointed that out >>

Uuuuh, if you want to involve your FC in some stuff, we can help you work through stuff too. Ishgard (specifically getting arrested and almost killed) is what we're good at!!

 

If this friend is Adeya--we are RPing post MSQ

 

This makes things much less complicated for me...

 

But hey if you wanna try (getting her in trouble first then) saving her I guess we could try to whip something up. Some sort of heresy or other ishgardian crime related thing. Because of something or other. My brain doesnt work atm.

 

I mean, I'd think [redacted] would not be so severe as to arrest someone and put them on trial simply for asking around about something. But I guess there might still be a shitload of really gung ho ishgardians out there, there's that possibility at least.