Using chakra as a form of aether to use magick?

[KoharuIyashi]

I've been playing around with my character and I've stumbled across this post in the forum.

 

Here Kieron Lohengrin states:

 

 

 

"...chakra" is simply a term for aether absorbed into the body from energy-heavy environments such as ancient battlefields, a capability unique to monks alone. 

(I have not played the MNK story line yet, but I am assuming this is true since it has been posted, but not pointer out for being incorrect.)

 

So, if this is true, Chakra is just another form of aether, likely more condensed so monks can use it enhance their attacks. Then do you think it would be possible to for someone who is capable of using these chakra, also use magick?

[Valence]

Pretty much. But that's really a very, very different discipline. Most of the jobs use aether in one way or another really.

[Aaron]

Chakra is one of those yes it's "this" at its basic sense but no it cannot be used like "this" despite it basically being a variation of "this" type things.

 

It's like chocolate, yes chocolate is chocolate, but natural chocolate tastes completely different from candy chocolate

[Virella]

We don't see mages, or monks, throwing fireballs around like mad. Yes, it would be possible, no, it would most likely make your character grossly overpowered.

 

And once more, I vague quote

 

"It takes years to unlock on Chakra" and the Fists keep their secret to themselves, only legends, and the WoL shat open a chakra out of no where.

 

I will adjust this post later once I'm out of roleplay.

[Caspar]

It's theoretically possible, but since you would need a focus to cast magic, it would effectively eliminate the advantages of using Chakra to spellcast. At that point, it's almost more like you're just using Thaumaturgy, isn't it? I can't be totally certain.

[Valence]

I seem to have misunderstood the question then. I thought it was about a monk also being able to switch to thaumaturgy at times (aka switching jobs), and not you know, enhancing chakras with thaumaturgy, like Fists of Fire throwing fireballs and whatnot...

[Aaron]

Wait, isn't that what Elixir Field does? Or am I mistaken.

 

The Hadouken move.

[Valence]

Uh yeah, but from what I understood Monks always have to channel through their bodies, and require some sort of close contact or touch to deliver their attacks (unlike standard magic casting).

 

I thought the OP was speaking about switching job, between monk-y stuff and caster stuff.

[Caspar]

Elixir Field is ranged, that's true, but it's also not some kind of elemental spell with unlimited range like a Thaumaturge's fire. Presumably it is less precise too since it is clearly aimed at the ground and has enough recoil to push the user's body airborne. If the character is looking to use Chakra to release controlled Thaumaturgical spells, maybe this could present a problem. I don't know if it is actually advantageous outside of not having to use an external focus. In the Monk quests, I tend to side with Erik's interpretation above all else in all cases, mind you. Which if he is right, and it really just is internal aether, then you would need a focus to cast spells, in which case, why not just learn Thaumaturgy?

[Kilieit]

If what you're asking is "would my monk character be able to learn to cast magick using thaumaturgy, arcanima, or conjury":

 

 

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A given person's aptitude in magick is determined by their "aetheric potential"/"aetheric surplus". This is the amount of aether about their person which is "spare".

 

Every living thing has a certain amount of aether which makes up what I guess we'd call a soul. This is necessary to keep them alive, and cannot be used to, for example, cast a fireball; because to do so would strip the person doing the casting of something that's keeping them alive, and promptly kill them. It'd be like ripping your heart out and throwing it at someone as some kind of offensive missile.

 

Some living things have aether about their person which is "theirs", but which isn't strictly necessary to keep them, you know, alive. This is their aetheric surplus, and this is what is used to cast spells with.

 

Others don't have an aetheric surplus at all [THM quests cover one such individual]. A person's aetheric surplus can also be temporarily exhausted [CNJ quests show this happening], and trying to continue spellcasting past this barrier will cause death [a fairly major plot point in the CNJ quests].

 

Now... I've only done one part of the MNK quest chain, so I don't know much about chakra yet. But any form of aether manipulation is likely to require at least a small aetheric surplus on the part of the user.

 

My instinct is to say that most people who use chakra techniques would also be able to learn to cast spells, and if you wanted your character to be one of them then it wouldn't raise any eyebrows. The only thing is a matter of how long it takes to learn a new discipline, and the fact they'd have to carry a spell focus (like a sceptre) around with them to do it.

 

 

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If what you're asking is "would my monk character be able to use chakra techniques to throw fireballs at range [like Fire], heal people [like Cure], or cause maladies [like Bio]", then here's my take:

 

 

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A given physical manifestation of aether comes about from a given recipe - e.g. using the Fire spell as an example for this post, it comes about from the following recipe:

[align=right]a physical spell focus [like a staff, sceptre, or grimoire]

+

the spellcaster's concentration on expelling part of their own aetheric surplus into that spell focus

+

the spellcaster's concentration on fire-aspecting that aether

+

the physical motion to fling that fire-aspected aether at the enemy[/align]

 

And that's the recipe for safely doing that thing [producing a fireball and then throwing it].

 

I think if you tried to use chakra techniques to cast a fireball, it'd end up looking like standard magicks anyway by the time you managed to successfully and safely create a fireball outside of yourself and then throw it at someone.

 

Because chakra techniques are for chakra, and fireball techniques are for fireballs.

 

Either that or you'd end up blowing yourself up if you tried, because you fire-aspected the aether before it left your body?? Am I understanding any of this right???

 

[KoharuIyashi]

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Uh yeah, but from what I understood Monks always have to channel through their bodies, and require some sort of close contact or touch to deliver their attacks (unlike standard magic casting).

 

I thought the OP was speaking about switching job, between monk-y stuff and caster stuff.

 

Sorry for not being clear. I meant it as a way for people using charka to cast whm / blm class magicks.

 

 

On the side note, thank you everyone comment everyone. It seem logical for a person to use charka to cast magick but I wasnt sure if it was lore breaking or considered as OP (which is a big no no)!

[Virella]

Okay now I'm out of roleplay.

 

Every being has chakras in them according to Monks, not being a Fist of Rhalgr myself irl (duh), and just vaguely guessing with lore we got. Chakras take a lot of training to open. They aren't just "OH THIS OPENS BECAUSE IM STANDING ON A FORMER BATTLEFIELD DESU". Else everyone in Eorzea by now would have shat our chakras right left and centre with Bahamut ripperoning the living hell out of a lot citizens at the Calamity

 

Widargelt

It is as Erik said. Widargelt is my name. I am a brother of the monkhood. My order is the Fist of Rhalgr. Our way is to train the body and mind.

Widargelt

The fist is our weapon. With it, we put down our enemies. The energy within us moves the fist. The chakra is the seat of that energy. It is a sacred place. It can be opened, and the life force within controlled.

Widargelt

Chakra exist in all that lives─in all beings. Yet not all beings can open them.

Widargelt

Much training is needed. And great discipline. With these, the life force be commanded.

Widargelt

There are those who require no training. Their inner strength is such that it forces the chakra open. I have heard of this happening. But never have I seen it─until now.

 

 

 

But once more, if you read further down the questline, it is really, really, really heavily implied only the FoR have access to these things. And their order is really, really mostly dead. There's people being trained again, but if we take Widargelt's words for granted, it will probably take years before one has managed to open a chakra, and some might never do it. Opening chakras isn't a god given right. Some people don't seem to be ever capable of doing it.

 

http://xivdb.com/quest/66597/Brother+From+Another+Mother

 

Anyhow, Monks do have spell to some degree. Although you wouldn't call them anything like BLM spells for the most part... they can throw magic at people.

 

Howling Fist is still a line of Aether

 

 

Elixir Field is also... really really spell like

 

 

And also minor things such as Mantra def have a spell caster feeling to it

 

 

So can you cast Aether as a Monk? Yes.

 

Can you do other jobs with it? No, they still require their focus like a staff/wand for a THM. You will need your book as an ACN ect.

 

Unless it turns out we are getting specs for our jobs in 4.0, I wouldn't hold my breath to see a spellcaster who throws things around without using a weapon. Although please, give healing Monk SE, that would be so cool ;_;

 

... Or staff whacking Monk, I'd be cool with that as well.

[Kilieit]

Yeah... I think spell-focusses [i.e. sceptres/canes] are a highly intrinsic part of casting CNJ/THM magic. That and cast time.

 

Spoiler tags because I'm rambling and I don't have sources on hand for any of this, but it all fits in with what I know/remember of NPC statements and lore occurrences.

 

 

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I think that because chakra are mostly about enhancing your own strength, there's little to no transmutation required. That, or it's unaspected magic (like, but not, Ruin). Which means you don't need to spend time filling a spell-focus with aether, or transmuting that aether into something like fire. You're just shunting aether around your own body to enhance it, or expelling it as-is with intent to harm. Right?

 

Either way, with no spell focus and no cast time, the effect you'd produce in trying to (again using as an example) make a fireball projectile would be very weak, if noticeable at all; since, with no vessel to hold the aether as you siphon it off, you'd be having to transmute it in real-time as it left your hand.

 

Like...

Casting a fireball with a spell focus and cast time =

1. filling a bucket of water [siphoning aether into the spell focus],
   
2. heating it up until it's boiling [transmuting it into fire-aspected aether],
   
3. and then throwing it over their head [throwing your projectile fireball].
   

 

Casting a fireball without either =

1. flicking lukewarm water in their general direction.
   

 

The same metaphor applies for healing energies (unless your character has a rare gift in that specific department - again see CNJ storyline) and earth/water/air/ice/lightning projectiles.

 

And that's assuming it's even safe to cast such things without a spell-focus. Like I said before, I think it's likely that there's always a risk with trying to transmute aether that isn't somehow tangibly separated from you (for example, by placing it into a spell focus). Like, "you might accidentally transmute some of your own soul and blow yourself up" dangerous.

 

...in fact, I'm pretty sure that's the mechanism by which the posthumous character in the CNJ storyline - who had aforementioned healing gift - died. Albiet not by blowing herself up. Probably.

 

And note I said CNJ/THM and not WHM/BLM. White Magic and Black Magic are both highly restricted, highly illegal forms of magic that require the prospective user to go through certain channels to obtain the knowledge/soul-crystals that make them possible/safe.

 

Using black magic without a soul-crystal means you burn yourself alive from the inside. (Possibly because you're transmuting aether before it leaves you? I didn't get that far in the BLM chain yet.)

 

Using white magic without the permission and tutelage of a Padjal means you're making yourself a huge target for all sorts of nasty forest business.

 

[Valence]

A caster doesn't necessarily have to drain its own body aetherial reserves to cast a spell. That's how thaumaturges work, but that's not how conjurers do. They borrow from nature around them, and instead of keeping an eye on their own health, they have to keep an eye on the health of the nature around. 

 

WhM and BLM draw from Hydaelyn directly, and not their own reserves. That is due to their spells being so powerful that they require a more powerful source. The Gem of Shattoto for BLM is made in such a way that it serves as a buffer channeling that power source so that it doesn't burn its users from the inside.

 

In the case of monks, the body is the focus. They are in that intersting place, a bit in between, as they have to train for long before being able to open chakra after chakra in their bodies, and then channel aether through them. But for that to happen it is said that places with strong aetherial residues, such as ancient battlefields, are a catalyst.

 

It seems that chakras act a bit like chi blockers or all that fluff, where once open, energy flows freely through the body and all that jazz. It can then be liberated with great effect through the fists of the monk. It is possible that monks draw from their personal reserves, but of that, I am not sure. It seems more to me that they let aether flow freely through them rather than draw from their reserves (which may be why they don't have any MP skills in terms of gameplay, like the huge MP pool of CNJ/WhM symbolizes the full, slow regenerating amount of aether they can draw in their immediate environment, or the ping-ponging MP pool of THM/BLM representing their limited but fast regenerating aether personal reserves, but whatever).

 

But yeah, at best, you will get a flamethrower effect like Elixir Field or Howling Fists, etc. Certainly not a projectile.