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In-Game Achievement in Relation to a Character


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Hi all,

 

It's been a very, very long time since I've been around here, but this thought popped into my head and I am curious as to what everyone's opinions are on this particular topic.

 

Using in-game achievement as a means of credibility for character back story.

 

Examples of this would be things like:

- Players who are highly rated in The Feast RPing as being more talented at fighting others.

- Players who hold Realm first kills of encounters RPing that they were actually present at the time of the creatures downfall (think Coil, Alexander, etc.)

- Players who have made a trading empire and mountains of gil actually RPing that they are extremely wealthy and have a hold on several markets.

 

I ask this, because back when I RP'd in World of Warcraft, it was widely agreed upon that characters who held these prestigious achievements would be recognized for them ICly.

 

I am interested in hearing your thoughts and opinions.

 

Edit:

 

I am seeing a lot of the same reply, so I wish to clarify something.

 

I am not suggesting that in-game achievement is more important than good writing, but that it adds credibility to a claim.

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RP is my priority. I don't enjoy and am not good at gameplay. On the contrary, I put a lot of time and effort and thought and love into developing my characters and trying (sometimes failing, sometimes succeeding) to make them compelling and interesting.

 

Does that mean I should be limited to playing poor civilians with no combat experience, even if I think I have a good idea for & the roleplay skills to pull off a character who falls outside of that? Because I can't PvP, don't have the energy to devote to realm-first raiding, and have a disability that means I'm bad with numbers?

 

If someone's done those things, was inspired to roleplay by them, and incorporates them into their story, I don't have a problem with that. But lording themselves as "more legitimate" than someone without the achievements in question comes across as arrogant, mean, and - in some cases I had in WoW - kinda like, "oh well I'm better than all of you at roleplay because I've got this world first achievement" when the person doesn't even roleplay regularly.

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I'd like to think it's so much as "I am better than you at roleplay" but rather, "There are game systems and achievements I have that give legitimate claim to my characters strengths and achievements."

 

Let's take PVP for example. If the top PVPer was also a good role player, would you not recognize them as such ICly?

 

Well yeah, but no moreso than if my friend who has never touched a PvP game in their life also came out with a character who's a combat pro.

 

If they play the character concept well, I could not give a single lonely toss if they have the OOC achievement to back it up or not.

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I think it's just a better practice to see how the person portrays their characters in RP rather than to just have them point to an achievement. Not to demean their efforts, of course, but I think it more of an apples and oranges situation. Just because a player did something in the game itself (defeating all the primals, collecting all the mounts/minions/etc) does not mean that their character has ICly done these things, and there are things characters may have done ICly that they've never actually done OOCly (accumulate mass amounts of wealth, for example). Doing something in one aspect doesn't preclude it was done in the other. And it wouldn't exactly be fair to limit someone's RP creativity to something they may not have the actual OOC capability to do.

 

So, rather than just point to their PVP ranking to show how awesome they are in combat, I'd rather see them write their combat with flair and style that lets me think on my own that they're a good fighter. It's... hard to explain, and I'm starting to get rambly. Still, I hope I'm making sense.

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I feel as though it's much more important for someone to be able to believably pull off a character concept then it is for them to OOC'ly be able to back a concept up. How RP is done in this game can mostly be considered a shared writing experience where we're all acting together to create stories in the XIV setting. 

 

We're only interacting with the game in a round about way as we do this as in we may play, as an example, a mercenary, born in Ala Mhigo and committed to the restoration of his homeland. Yet we can only impact the Ala Mhigan resistance to other people and not the game world directly. In that way it's much more important that people could interact with us and think 'I could see him really being part of the resistance, this feels authentic to me.' Or something along those lines. ( I realize now my entire series of thoughts on this are hard to put properly into words! )

 

In some cases though some OOC things make that mutual writing and suspension of disbelief easier. My main character is an Ishgardian Dragoon. For me personally to feel as though I could pull that off in a realistic manner I first set about getting my class to cap, my armor augmented and then glamoured onto the pieces I wanted to use. That's not to say it's not possible to do without the armor, but that for me and the people I interact with regularly that helped make my character more believable.

 

^ the wording may be a little weird, I am coming off the crusp of insomnia so forgive me if it's off @_@;

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I think it's just a better practice to see how the person portrays their characters in RP rather than to just have them point to an achievement. Not to demean their efforts, of course, but I think it more of an apples and oranges situation. Just because a player did something in the game itself (defeating all the primals, collecting all the mounts/minions/etc) does not mean that their character has ICly done these things, and there are things characters may have done ICly that they've never actually done OOCly (accumulate mass amounts of wealth, for example). Doing something in one aspect doesn't preclude it was done in the other. And it wouldn't exactly be fair to limit someone's RP creativity to something they may not have the actual OOC capability to do.

 

So, rather than just point to their PVP ranking to show how awesome they are in combat, I'd rather see them write their combat with flair and style that lets me think on my own that they're a good fighter. It's... hard to explain, and I'm starting to get rambly. Still, I hope I'm making sense.

 

I do understand what you're saying. However, in my experience it is -also- very rare for RPers to actually RP many of the things they claim their characters to be skilled at. Whether it be battle, tradecrafts, or something else. 

 

To me, I think it is similar to the argument that a max level character is more credible than a fresh level 1. There are exceptions, but I am personally more inclined to believe that the person holding the server 1st kill of T13 was there to see Bahamut's final fall, rather than the Level 30 claiming the same. 

 

To clarify, I am not claiming that this character is "better" or "stronger", just that they have more credibility to claim their achievements if they have in-game achievement to back it up.

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I'm in the camp that OOC achievements based on OOC merit/gameplay =/= IC achievements. Your character can be everything in the game, but there is no realistic way for that to happen unless you mary sue them to hell and back. Some people have lives, jobs, or just think the PvP in the game is atrocious and would prefer spending their time doing something else that they think is fun. I don't believe it right to limit these people based on personal interest. As someone mentioned earlier, so long as they pick something and can RP it well enough for it to be believed, I don't really care what they do while playing the game. It's the character I'm interested in, not their individual achievements.

 

I played WoW for a very, very long time, and I'm not entirely sure when the achievement thing popped up. It must have been after I left. I do vaguely recall some people claiming they solo'd Onyxia/Ragnaos shortly after the first or second expansion IC and everyone laughing at them or just telling them it was impossible. But.. I mean, that's kind of common sense. Or you would think it would be.

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I played WoW for a very, very long time, and I'm not entirely sure when the achievement thing popped up. It must have been after I left. I do vaguely recall some people claiming they solo'd Onyxia/Ragnaos shortly after the first or second expansion IC and everyone laughing at them or just telling them it was impossible. But.. I mean, that's kind of common sense. Or you would think it would be.

 

Thanks for your reply. There was another poster asking about the WoW comment so I will clarify for you both!

 

There were a handful of players on Moon Guard who had claimed to be part of the groups of heroes who had conquered certain enemies. As a server-wide rule, you could only claim such if you held the realm-first title/acheivement associated with it.

 

I am thinking of one player in particular as an example, a Paladin named Eldanesh, who had the "Conqueror of Naxxaramas" title, which he then wore proudly, and was part of his story in which he had been part of the team to storm the undead fortress of Naxxaramas and kill the minions of the Lich King within. 

 

Other players were free to claim to also have been alongside him, but they simply held less credibility. This was a discussion that was held on the realm forums (I think back in 2010?) and the general consensus was that this was "Ok" because only a small group of players could achieve these things and so there would not be hundreds of people walking around claiming to have killed the big bads ICly.

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I do understand what you're saying. However, in my experience it is -also- very rare for RPers to actually RP many of the things they claim their characters to be skilled at. Whether it be battle, tradecrafts, or something else. 

 

To me, I think it is similar to the argument that a max level character is more credible than a fresh level 1. There are exceptions, but I am personally more inclined to believe that the person holding the server 1st kill of T13 was there to see Bahamut's final fall, rather than the Level 30 claiming the same. 

 

To clarify, I am not claiming that this character is "better" or "stronger", just that they have more credibility to claim their achievements if they have in-game achievement to back it up.

Bolding this bit for emphasis. That's still the desired outcome for what I'm looking for too - someone actually RPing what they say they're skilled at. The thing is, you can RP being a seasoned soldier without maxing out your GC rank. You can RP being a gillionaire without actually having millions upon millions of gil on your person.

 

The point is presenting it believably - show, don't tell. In a literary sense. Rather than just say you're a master of the sword, describe your combat as such.  If you're an accomplished miner, describe your times down in the mines - digging among your peers at that vein of rich ore. If you're an Ishgardian noble, present yourself as such.

 

I get what you mean for people who claim they've fought every primal, arm-wrestled the Garlean Emperor into submission, and slept with every Scion twice. But those people are looked at askance already, and would likely still be looked at that way even if they were touting an achievement.

 

Also, to further play devil's advocate - some people don't even raid on their RP characters. I know people who RP on Balmung but do their raiding and whatnot on another server entirely. So, how do we know the player hasn't actually done what they've claimed on their level 15 alt they made? I think it's just far easier to just see how they present their character - how they show, rather than tell - and then decide whether you want to accept that character into your head canon for your own character's story.

 

... I warned you I was getting rambly. :blush:

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I played WoW for a very, very long time, and I'm not entirely sure when the achievement thing popped up. It must have been after I left. I do vaguely recall some people claiming they solo'd Onyxia/Ragnaos shortly after the first or second expansion IC and everyone laughing at them or just telling them it was impossible. But.. I mean, that's kind of common sense. Or you would think it would be.

 

Thanks for your reply. There was another poster asking about the WoW comment so I will clarify for you both!

 

There were a handful of players on Moon Guard who had claimed to be part of the groups of heroes who had conquered certain enemies. As a server-wide rule, you could only claim such if you held the realm-first title/acheivement associated with it.

 

I am thinking of one player in particular as an example, a Paladin named Eldanesh, who had the "Conqueror of Naxxaramas" title, which he then wore proudly, and was part of his story in which he had been part of the team to storm the undead fortress of Naxxaramas and kill the minions of the Lich King within. 

 

Other players were free to claim to also have been alongside him, but they simply held less credibility. This was a discussion that was held on the realm forums (I think back in 2010?) and the general consensus was that this was "Ok" because only a small group of players could achieve these things and so there would not be hundreds of people walking around claiming to have killed the big bads ICly.

 

Ah, yeah. That was after/around the time I quit, I think. I helped get super deep into Naxx 40 back in the day, but I never really cared to do Naxx 20 because it was just.. idk. The same?

 

I was on Moon Guard when The Council was around, which consisted of myself (RPing as a guard), Dreyfus, uh.. Nithian? Female rogue? They made rules and whatnot for people in Stormwind to follow. I want to say Arranax was around then as well? I could drop some more old school names from there, but I don't really know what happened to it as I kind of bailed when the game got relatively boring for me. I know it no longer exists.

 

I think people already claim "Hey I was with X" in game, such as fighting during the cataclysm and helping to take out primals, but no one expressly states they are the top whatever.

 

As I said before, I don't mind people claiming whatever as long as they can back it up. I've had people claim to be the best combat fighter and then do some weird sprint 20 yards, bounce off a wall, then sprint 20 yards back kind of wrestling rip-off move and armbar someone in the ground. They were using rolls, so of course the attack connected, but I prefer far more realism in my combat. Flashy fights are how you usually get your ass kicked, and I would expect someone that claims to be the top however percent to know that kind of thing. This may sound a tad cynical, but I don't really have that much faith in people these days.

 

Thank you for your clarification, though! Some of that may have been going on during my time there, but I honestly don't recall when I quit and how long I was around.

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I honestly still just think it's arrogant to assume yourself more suited to playing a certain role because of something you did that's completely unrelated to your skill as a roleplayer.

 

T13 world first doesn't magically make you amazing at roleplaying a war hero. And if you're spending so much time putting effort and practice into world-first-style raiding, then the time spent roleplaying is necessarily lesser than someone who spends the majority of their game-time on it.

 

Here's a hypothetical something I'd respect more:

 

A person takes the time and effort to assemble a group of adventurers who might have the in-character skill to enter the Binding Coil and investigate the recent disturbances. Over the next few weeks, they do regular RP sessions covering their adventures into the Coils, filming video or posting stories about them for others to share in. They take care to ensure the story is well-crafted and compelling, and that it has a personal spin on it to differentiate it from what the developers provided for them, while still remaining true to the heart of the original storyline. After a lot of in-character, on-screen time and effort, they finally arrive at their destination, and although some of their members faulter once or twice, they eventually pull through as a group and emerge victorious.

 

Man, if I'd seen something like that documented on the forums and one of the people approached me in-game, I'd totally roll with it - because I'd admire their creativity and dedication to roleplay. Far moreso than someone trying to use out-of-character achievements to influence in-character events.

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Yes, you may have quit JUST BEFORE, or even during the time I'm talking about. I RP'd on Moon Guard primarily during WOTLK, so I am surprised you never heard of Eldanesh (who I might add, was generally disliked, but still recognized as the dude who killed Kel'Thuzad.)

 

I both loved and hated the council. I thought it was really cool that the player base was able to establish a player-run government of sorts, which MANY players did abide by. I am very green leaf when it comes to the current FFXIV community, but I don't believe we have many players like that, do we? And by that I mean, players who are generally regarded as having certain roles of power or governance?

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I am very green leaf when it comes to the current FFXIV community, but I don't believe we have many players like that, do we? And by that I mean, players who are generally regarded as having certain roles of power or governance?

Not that I've seen. You're basically king of your own domain here. The RPC itself is only a small sliver of all the RPers on Balmung. There's no group nearly big enough or respected enough to have those sorts of positions.

 

Instead, you're all basically telling your own stories and they interact and interweave with the people you choose to RP with. There's no grand overarching plot that is being policed by any one person or persons. So, you could have eight different people claiming to be THE Warrior of Light, and it's up to you to decide which one - if any - is the canon one in your own story.

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I honestly still just think it's arrogant to assume yourself more suited to playing a certain role because of something you did that's completely unrelated to your skill as a roleplayer.

 

T13 world first doesn't magically make you amazing at roleplaying a war hero. And if you're spending so much time putting effort and practice into world-first-style raiding, then the time spent roleplaying is necessarily lesser than someone who spends the majority of their game-time on it.

 

Here's a hypothetical something I'd respect more:

 

A person takes the time and effort to assemble a group of adventurers who might have the in-character skill to enter the Binding Coil and investigate the recent disturbances. Over the next few weeks, they do regular RP sessions covering their adventures into the Coils, filming video or posting stories about them for others to share in. They take care to ensure the story is well-crafted and compelling, and that it has a personal spin on it to differentiate it from what the developers provided for them, while still remaining true to the heart of the original storyline. After a lot of in-character, on-screen time and effort, they finally arrive at their destination, and although some of their members faulter once or twice, they eventually pull through as a group and emerge victorious.

 

Man, if I'd seen something like that documented on the forums and one of the people approached me in-game, I'd totally roll with it - because I'd admire their creativity and dedication to roleplay. Far moreso than someone trying to use out-of-character achievements to influence in-character events.

 

I want to agree with you to an extent, I really, really do. I think it would be incredible to see high-level content RP'd out and documented. That would be some very interesting story telling.

 

However...It is my personal opinion that a group of adventurers going back and going over these hurdles when the content is easy and the story old (as is the case of Coil), would have less credibility to claim their feat than the writer who claims the same, and HE was the first to tackle the challenge, back during it's relevancy.

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I'm probably going to be repeating what everyone else has said. I played back on WoW too, on Moon Guard and Wyrmrest Accord. I played a level 85 mage (back when Cataclysm was current content) as a mage apprentice, I also played a level 50 warrior... who is now level 91 as a red dragonsworn. She was a low level character, but I still played her off as someone who was really strong. 

 

I mean yes, getting a world first achievement is pretty fucking awesome. I find it impressive when I find someone that's actually good at a MMO I'm playing, because I suck at them myself xD. But I just don't think that matters in roleplay. Roleplay is about being creative and to be able to play whatever kind of character you want as long as they fit properly into the world. I honestly don't find someone who has a world first achievement more valid than a level 10. If something were to make a character more believable, it would be the player's writing. 

 

If you'd like to play a character based on their achievements, then go ahead! But if a level 30 wants to do the same thing, then they should. ICly, I would treat both characters the same.

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Yes, you may have quit JUST BEFORE, or even during the time I'm talking about. I RP'd on Moon Guard primarily during WOTLK, so I am surprised you never heard of Eldanesh (who I might add, was generally disliked, but still recognized as the dude who killed Kel'Thuzad.)

 

I both loved and hated the council. I thought it was really cool that the player base was able to establish a player-run government of sorts, which MANY players did abide by. I am very green leaf when it comes to the current FFXIV community, but I don't believe we have many players like that, do we? And by that I mean, players who are generally regarded as having certain roles of power or governance?

 

 

There are no IC governments or anything like that. The Council was.. decent. It was fun. I wasn't directly a part of it so much as I RPed a character that doubled as a bodyguard/assassin for Dreyfus and kind of gathered information to give to the Council. I was a Night Elf rogue :)  It was a lot of fun!

 

Here, most people seem pretty laid back. I don't think anyone really does the achievement stuff. People do bend the lore, but usually within the purview of what has already been established. No one has any sayso/governing role over others, and I am admittedly surprised to not see some sort of FC/guild based on the Flames or whatever law force to patrol the streets. Almost every MMO I've RPed in has something to the equivalent of that.

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If I may add some clarification to my last post, I want to add something from my own RP as an example.

 

I like to joke and imply that Chachanji and Gogonji's father - Zozonji Gegenji - has a business deal with Rowena brokered between her and his wife. The result was that all the Doman-inspired tome gear (the Asuran stuff), in my head canon, was being churned out by the head of the Gegenji family to be snatched up by adventurers who were really into Doman fashion after the mass immigration caused by the razing. It was amusing to me (and I suppose a minor plot point) that Chachan's father was churning out these - at the time - incredibly powerful gear like it was nothing. A hinting to how skilled the Gegenjis were at their craft.

 

Does that make it the case for anyone else? Nah, but I like the idea in my story and people are free to decide whether or not that's the case for them - and I make a point of not really mentioning it unless said people want to include it into their RP. Otherwise I just leave it a vague point that Chachan's parents and Rowena have a business deal.

 

Meanwhile, while I do have Chachan as a 60 BSM and ARM, I did that mostly for the outfits. And if I were to truly match what you were suggesting, would that mean I would have to grind out making hundreds of smithing items for the achievements and titles connected to them? Or do all the turn-ins so I could have all the recipe books? And keep on the loot treadmill to keep all my crafting gear at tip-top level and melded perfectly?

 

How much OOC proof would I have to provide that Chachan's a good smith in this situation? Not asking any of this out of any malice, of course. I'm just curious as to what sort of baseline would need to be set in this kind of situation. Because that seems like an awful lot of extra work to do for joint story-telling, and time that I - as someone who works a full time job - honestly couldn't see myself doing.

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I'm probably going to echo what has already been said, but as I see it, it depends on what sort of roleplayer you are and how far you take your IC-ness. There's people who for example will always be IC, no matter what they're doing in game, and in that sort of context I can easily see how achievements add something to your claim of ability on a character. It's not at all uncommon to run into people who completely separate game mechanics from the roleplay as well, I for example wouldn't take an achievement as something that gives more credibility - I also don't factor in levels, what class or job you're playing as, etc. For me, I value how much a person roleplays on their abilities, how long they've done it for (to some extend and in certain contexts) and how everything is balanced. I'm also one that appreciates skill/power to be gained or improved upon through RP. Writing a background story that starts off your character as a super awesome hero isn't as interesting as starting off with some plotlines that might land your character at hero status eventually. 

Balmung is rather big, so I'm not at all doubting that you'll find people from all sorts of standpoints. If you're trying to evaluate what is the right thing to do, then I reckon it's a very individual thing - but when you look for groups/guilds to play with, you could ask how stuff adds up for them so you can take measures to avoid style-conflicts. 

 

That's my two gil.

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I want to agree with you to an extent, I really, really do. I think it would be incredible to see high-level content RP'd out and documented. That would be some very interesting story telling.

 

However...It is my personal opinion that a group of adventurers going back and going over these hurdles when the content is easy and the story old (as is the case of Coil), would have less credibility to claim their feat than the writer who claims the same, and HE was the first to tackle the challenge, back during it's relevancy.

 

I'd rather lend credence to people who are dedicated to telling a good story than to people who happened to be in the right place at the right time and to have a solid raid group, 2 years ago, before I even played the game myself.

 

Basically.

 

I do not value raid progress, for any purpose. Not for me, not for others. I don't see it as something that's important or that should be specially respected. I don't find it enjoyable. I don't admire those who do it. It's just a difference in preference, and they're not "more worthy" of admiration just because what they pour their time and effort into happens to yield in-game achievements. IMO, they shouldn't be able to "transfer" stuff they did that gets them good reputation in the raiding community to get the same ego-stroking in the RP community as well.

 

I roleplay. I do so, in part, because I value roleplay. I value creativity and work and time and effort poured into bringing a character concept to life.

 

People trying to bring non-roleplay-related stuff into it comes across as grasping at straws because they're insecure in what they're trying to portray.

 

IMO, if you have to reach to something outside the scene and go "no, really, look, you HAVE to go along with what I'm RPing, because I did this thing that's totally unrelated to anything to do with RP", you've already lost my attention.

 

If you're RPing it with skill, finesse, and humility, then the question of whether you're "for legit" shouldn't even have to come up.

 

I'm aware I'm being quite harsh here, and it's because I had bad experiences with thoroughly arrogant, unpleasant people in the WoW community who thought that being realm-first raiders on a really tiny realm with no PvE community meant that the RPers hanging around should be kneeling at their feet. If someone wants to RP a character who others kneel at the feet of, I'd rather they build that gravitas through roleplay.

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How much OOC proof would I have to provide that Chachan's a good smith in this situation? 

 

To me, it is not about proving your skill in terms of your character's story or self-perceived achievements, but rather how you size up to other players claiming that they are the same, or better.

 

If a player claims that their character is a better smith than yours, has specialists in each profession, leveled to maximum, with fully melded gear, and all of the achievements, would you not be more inclined to humor that claim than if they were a level 1 crafter?

 

I would never say that going that extra mile is necessary to RP something, but it certainly does, in my eyes, make the story more believable.

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Someone who tries to claim that they are a better of anything than you is an asshole. That's kind of like if you were playing basketball, and some guy came up to you and was like. "Hey.. I'm better at you than this." or if you're healing in a dungeon and someone says 'I'm better at you than this.' wouldn't you consider them sort of an asshole? If a character thinks that they could assist another character because they think they're better at a certain craft or activity, wouldn't they give constructive criticism on their work over saying. 'Hey I'm better than you at this.' Especially if the only proof that they have is their OOC achievements. I mean, if a character can explain why they are better through IC achievemetns, okay awesome.. but why would a character try to argue that anyways, unless the character is a total douche.

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