discussion Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead

[AlionLucada]

So, hey, new user but I just want to point this out to quell the drama:

 

http://amdapori.tumblr.com/post/152046814136/soul-crystals-info-on-jobs-and-when-soul

 

To be precise:

 

"What began with a few stray adventurers practicing the wisdom of old, quickly swelled ino a movement that caught the attention of entire nations. It is said that the Maelstrom has formed a provisional unit of elite troops who are being trained in the ways of Albalathian warrior clans. In similar fashion, the Order of the Twin Adder is rumoured to be considering the integration of bards and their traditional battlesongs into the company's regular army. Military leaders across the realm are taking notice, and none can deny that the race to revive disciplines long thought lost is steadily gaining momentum."

 

While the next paragraph goes onto say that for centuries, the art of the Dragoon was not practiced outside of Ishgard, that's in regard of the past rather than current events making it entirely possible for Adventurers to learn the art.

 

As for the 30 and then 10 issue - it's 30 unnamed Dragoon Knights. Fill yourself in. As for the 10 - beyond, again, being unnamed, there is such a thing as a "10 minute retirement". Have your character decide to put down their spear after the battle on the Steps only for them to hear news of Ravana and/or Bismarck. To hear news once again of the Garleans and they realize, the war with dragons is over but there is still threats to Ishgard and return to duty. Or, have them become an adventurer, mercenary, or just a plain old wanderer.

 

Beyond that, for other jobs, the limited amount is becoming a less limited amount apparently.

 

You're mentioning the Job crystals that most people are okay with people RPing, though. When people aqre wary about people RPing as jobs they generally mean the ones like WHM, BLM, etc. The ones explicitly called forbidden or incredibly rare in the lore.

 

Ones like WAR/BRD/MNK, where there are people and organizations actively training new people are fine and I never see them being pestered about it.

 

EDIT: While I'm here, to show I'm not just against people RPing stuff like being part of important or exclusive lore organizations like the Dragoons and such, I'll mention that a new (?) Garlean FC has cropped up recently that is actually RPing as the Vth Legion with their leader being a comic book villain-y evil Legatus.

 

As someone RPing a Garlean and trying to run a group myself, I find this insane considering we have an expansion looming that will likely heavily involve the Garleans given the setting that could easily make everything they do non-canon. Plus, they're playing them as mustache twirlingly evil villains. It grinds my gears, though I imagine it'd be funny to encounter them ICly ("Uh, no.. you're not the real Vth Legion.").

[RegaliaRider]

So, hey, new user but I just want to point this out to quell the drama:

 

http://amdapori.tumblr.com/post/152046814136/soul-crystals-info-on-jobs-and-when-soul

 

To be precise:

 

"What began with a few stray adventurers practicing the wisdom of old, quickly swelled ino a movement that caught the attention of entire nations. It is said that the Maelstrom has formed a provisional unit of elite troops who are being trained in the ways of Albalathian warrior clans. In similar fashion, the Order of the Twin Adder is rumoured to be considering the integration of bards and their traditional battlesongs into the company's regular army. Military leaders across the realm are taking notice, and none can deny that the race to revive disciplines long thought lost is steadily gaining momentum."

 

While the next paragraph goes onto say that for centuries, the art of the Dragoon was not practiced outside of Ishgard, that's in regard of the past rather than current events making it entirely possible for Adventurers to learn the art.

 

As for the 30 and then 10 issue - it's 30 unnamed Dragoon Knights. Fill yourself in. As for the 10 - beyond, again, being unnamed, there is such a thing as a "10 minute retirement". Have your character decide to put down their spear after the battle on the Steps only for them to hear news of Ravana and/or Bismarck. To hear news once again of the Garleans and they realize, the war with dragons is over but there is still threats to Ishgard and return to duty. Or, have them become an adventurer, mercenary, or just a plain old wanderer.

 

Beyond that, for other jobs, the limited amount is becoming a less limited amount apparently.

 

You're mentioning the Job crystals that most people are okay with people RPing, though. When people aqre wary about people RPing as jobs they generally mean the ones like WHM, BLM, etc. The ones explicitly called forbidden or incredibly rare in the lore.

 

Ones like WAR/BRD/MNK, where there are people and organizations actively training new people are fine and I never see them being pestered about it.

Yes but they make a very clear point that it's all of the old disciplines - all of the jobs - that are getting a revival, even the forbidden ones.There's a noteable point that it is including every single Job (otherwise, it would say a select few instead).

 

It speaks in an absolute language - inclusive of all Jobs - rather than speaking in a partial language - using words like "some", "most", or "common". Using the game's story, it is the Adventurer that takes part in the story that "starts" a revival of sorts, but it is apparently being passed on.

 

For instance, in the White Mage section of the lore it says:

 

"Some five centuries past, the elementals relented, and did at last allow the legacy of the Amdapori magi to wielded by a chosen few. The Padjal, revered eaders of Gridania, have since served as stewards of white magic and oversee its careful instruction."

 

Note how they have to be chosen by the elementals, but that white magic is being taught to people by the Padjal? It means limited quanity but that it is not left to just the storyline adventurer.

[Oli!]

We've been over this current topic elsewhere. It also has less to do with RPing as a Dragoon Knight of Ishgard than it does with RPing as the job itself.

[Melkire]

You're mentioning the Job crystals that most people are okay with people RPing, though. When people aqre wary about people RPing as jobs they generally mean the ones like WHM, BLM, etc. The ones explicitly called forbidden or incredibly rare in the lore.

 

While we're touching on that subject:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lore book confirms that the Padjal are open to teaching white magic. What their conditions are goes unmentioned, but the job is apparently seeing a revival beyond just the Warrior of Light, presumably. Therefore it stands to reason that WHM isn't (or won't be) as rare as we once thought it was.

[Oli!]

 

 

 

While we're touching on that subject:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lore book confirms that the Padjal are open to teaching white magic. What their conditions are goes unmentioned, but the job is apparently seeing a revival beyond just the Warrior of Light, presumably. Therefore it stands to reason that WHM isn't (or won't be) as rare as we once thought it was.

 

 

This is still crazy vague and unclear. The "chosen few" could refer to either normal people or the Padjal, and who are they instructing? Each other? The 1.0 and 2.0 WHMs? Anybody they want?

 

I seriously don't understand what SE's aversion to clarity is all about.

[Nero]

This is still crazy vague and unclear. The "chosen few" could refer to either normal people or the Padjal, and who are they instructing? Each other? The 1.0 and 2.0 WHMs? Anybody they want?

 

I seriously don't understand what SE's aversion to clarity is all about.

 

It's a good bit of irony considering that this whole Dragoon brouhaha is about Square Enix going laser-focused with specifics.

[AlionLucada]

Still probably a good idea not to RP stuff that's supposed to be super rare/exclusive, just because of how easy it is for them to change something in the lore that suddenly makes everything you've done irrelevant. Just to be safe. Only reason I can see for people to -need- to RP a WHM/BLM instead of an exceptional Conjurer/Thaumaturge is because they want to be special.

[Oli!]

Only reason I can see for people to -need- to RP a WHM/BLM instead of an exceptional Conjurer/Thaumaturge is because they want to be special.

 

I disagree with this on the premise that there are certain kinds of plots / storylines that make more sense if one is capable of being one of those jobs. One example would be going out into the world to search for dangerous BLM artifacts in the pursuit of knowledge as a fireball-slinging Indiana Jones.

 

Could you do that as a THM? Probably, but there's not much point if you can't actually use those things without exploding.

[Aedan Marceaux]

It doesn't say word for word, "Oh, by the way, those chosen few... we mean the Padjal."

 

But I do feel it is pretty heavily implied. The elementals said, "K, you guys can do this again...." and ever since the Padjal have been the stewards of the art.

 

Edit: And it is "being revived" in their (the Padjal's) hands. It's a big leap, in my opinion, to take that to mean the Padjal are training other people.

 

Edit 2: I can read good. "Overseeing its careful instruction..." Fair enough.

[Melkire]

I took "chosen few" to mean that the elementals passed over stewardship of white magic to the Padjal. Nothing more, nothing less. Because that's how the language reads: "chosen few [of the elementals]" flows into "the Padjal".

 

The line that really carries weight is “The Padjal… oversee its careful instruction,” which implies that they are teaching non-Padjali, that they are selective, and that they have criteria.

[Valence]

Not really, they could be teaching to other padjal. Or to the WoL.

 

Anyway, it would totally contradict the WhM questline, unless suddenly they had a change of mind or something... Bleh.

[Aedan Marceaux]

Not really, they could be teaching to other padjal. Or to the WoL.

 

Anyway, it would totally contradict the WhM questline, unless suddenly they had a change of mind or something... Bleh.

This was my thought as well... teaching it to newborn/created Padjal since, I would imagine, they don't just suddenly know every thing there is to know of white magic the moment they're chosen.

 

Either way, even if it isn't other Padjal, I would personally feel uncomfortable, still, roleplaying a WHM that was taught in this manner. It means I have a character that rubbed elbows with the leaders of Gridania and, likely, holds a high office him/herself due to their training.

[Aldotsk]

In regards to Padjal teaching non Padjali conjurers to become WHM, wouldn't that kind of imply that we should accept role players to RP as WHMs eventually considering that there will be increase of apprentices and teachings by these newly full fledged WHMs?

 

Of course, this would actually apply after like few years in game persay including after like one or two more expansions? (Or even now since it's probably after few years from ARR)

[Oli!]

In regards to Padjal teaching non Padjali conjurers to become WHM, wouldn't that kind of imply that we should accept role players to RP as WHMs eventually considering that there will be increase of apprentices and teachings by these newly full fledged WHMs?

 

Of course, this would actually apply after like few years in game persay including after like one or two more expansions? (Or even now since it's probably after few years from ARR)

 

Again, we have no idea who they're supposedly teaching, as myself and like two other people have pointed out. Are they teaching themselves? The 1.0 and 2.0 WHMs? Or whomever they want? We have no way of knowing which is the right answer.

 

SE is still keeping us in the dark, and we have no way of knowing the right answer to this question.

[PhantasticPanda]

Not really, they could be teaching to other padjal. Or to the WoL.

 

Anyway, it would totally contradict the WhM questline, unless suddenly they had a change of mind or something... Bleh.

 

We should also consider the passage of time when it comes to the game world and as the MSQ develops. Take the lorebook as present tense, with the lore of the world at this point, 3.4. The beginning WHM storyline takes places 2.0, and since then, three years have passed, and there's a lot that can happen in three years, especially with the effects of the Calamity still present on Eorzea. Its not static, and the workings of the world can change. In this case, maybe the Padjal saw fit, in a world spiraling towards chaos with the WoL being that barrier, to begin teaching White Magic again but with, as stated, careful instruction. Anyone that would try to take up White Magic would no doubt have to go through the same philosophical and mental training as conjurers do plus more. It would be hard to believe a fledgling character would suddenly be adept at White Magic by the time 4.0 rolls around but more realistic to say by the time maybe 5.0 or even 6.0.

 

Edit: Also, what's up with all this strict regards to the lore? I find myself an avid follower of the lore, and do my best to avoid any sort of lore-breaking, or minimum lore-bending, but as roleplayers, we often work around the holes in lore, supported by the existing lore, to come up with new and interesting concepts. If we don't, it would be a pretty bland environment.

[Hyrist]

I've said this before but it bears repeating.

 

No matter how seriously you take the matter, there is nothing that will absolve the fact that any and all form of role-playing within established canon context not of your own origin can and will only amount to mere fan-fiction.

 

You pair this with the fact that a community can only thrive if it remains open and welcoming, and that cannot be achieved when valuing subjective (even if literal) interpretations of the lore against gameplay elements - and you establish one over-arching code beyond all others.

 

 Play to have fun.

 

For all the intensity of trying to maintain seriousness with the lore here, Square Enix, on the other hand, is quite capable of self-satire for the sake of humor, and has displayed it regularly with each Hildebrand story iteration. 

 

I'll be replying to my own thread during this weekend (work kinda dragged me down, and I'm posting this with the last ounce of my sanity) regarding one of the clauses that tend to undermined how the lore itself tends to be more perceptual rather than factual, with plenty of loopholes for players to do what they want - but it really does boil down to this simple question:

 

If Square Enix can have fun with its own game, why can't we?

[Oli!]

If Square Enix can have fun with its own game, why can't we?

 

This is an ongoing issue with this discussion.

 

There is a repeating thread of mentality that says that people that follow the lore very tightly are not "welcoming," are not "flexible," live to "tear others down," or do not have "fun."

 

Why must this be brought up almost every single time someone says that something is not definite, and is instead a player interpretation, regardless of whether or not they actually state what their level of lore compliancy actually is?

[Valence]

I'm having way more fun when being lore compliant, thank you very much.

 

People complain that lore nazis somehow tell them how they should play and what they shouldn't do and whatnot (and I'm sure some do), but I would expect the courtesy for the extremists of the other side not to do the same...

 

Would be much obliged.

[Hyrist]

I don't think anyone going to go out and make you feel terrible for making a character that adheres to your perception of the lore Valence. I feel sorry if someone has.

 

But the real argument being made here is that you accept others who are playing a method you do not. Take a moment to suspend disbelief when the retired Isghardian Knight Dragoon walks in the bar and hear their tale to see if it's written well enough to make a believable story premise, before writing them off as a lorebender and deciding not to play with them.

 

'Being lore compliant' is a perception. We're all writing fanfiction. The fact that our characters exists at all, no matter what the premise, can be put into question. Making your character as close to what is known of the lore is possible can be fun, and I don't deny that. But it can and often does fall into the cycle of peers pressuring one another to fit within their individual perceptions of the lore -( even if their basis of that lore comes with innate flaws and contradictions.) It's at that point that I disagree. It's just not in me to try to justify if a character's perception exists one way or another. I want to see if it's well written.

 

Even saying something as 'lore compliant' indicates that somehow your character is more valid that someone who falls within the margins of the written lore, or contrasts a claim made by an NPC character in the game somewhere that's being taken as fact by a circle of players.

 

It's that level of microagression and the constant cross examining by certain other players that's causing what is being perceived as a hostile environment by those outside the regulars here looking in. Something that would bear dispelling, in my opinion, as there are really good people here.

 

All I've asked of people is to not take role-playing so seriously. If you're having fun scouring through the lore and writing off sections of it where you feel is forbidden for you to play, do so. What I'm asking of the wider community is to be welcoming of other perspectives when someone sees the same segment of the lore and sees an opportunity, rather than a wall.

 

In this specific instance, seeming the Knights Dragoon's have fallen so low in living members, perhaps this may spark a desire in Adventurers to attempt harder to adapt their martial techniques in an effort to make sure they survive, even if the order is eventually retired due to the developing peace with Ishgard and Dravania.

[Oli!]

But the real argument being made here is that you accept others who are playing a method you do not. Take a moment to suspend disbelief when the retired Isghardian Knight Dragoon walks in the bar and hear their tale to see if it's written well enough to make a believable story premise, before writing them off as a lorebender and deciding not to play with them.

 

Only some people here are saying they won't acknowledge it. Some of us haven't offered any personal takes on this at all. This is a projection of an opinion onto people under the assumption that they should have it because they enjoy lore compliance, which is inaccurate. All that some people wish of others in this thread is the acknowledgement of the fact that Inferrence does not equal Lore, which is another recurring train of thought in this thread.

 

'Being lore compliant' is a perception. We're all writing fanfiction. The fact that our characters exists at all, no matter what the premise, can be put into question. Making your character as close to what is known of the lore is possible can be fun, and I don't deny that. But it can and often does fall into the cycle of peers pressuring one another to fit within their individual perceptions of the lore -( even if their basis of that lore comes with innate flaws and contradictions.) It's at that point that I disagree. It's just not in me to try to justify if a character's perception exists one way or another. I want to see if it's well written.

 

Lore Compliance is not a perception. It is a sliding scale of objective relevancy that is decided upon by how many times one's character concept falls outside of defined lore guidelines, as well as how important said guidelines are compared to others. The only subjective portions of it are how many times a character must break the lore in order to lose compliant status, and how important the broken lore is.

 

If your character breaks the lore less times than mine does, you may objectively state that your character is more compliant than mine, plain and simple.

 

"We're all writing fanon" and "your character's existence is a lore-break" are meaningless statements and arguments, because they are a required premise in order for any arguments on compliance to take place. It does not follow to turn a premise against an argument that requires it, especially when both arguments do. It does not make a difference within the context of the debate, because it is a starting point without any alternative.

 

As for "peer pressure," you are once again assuming that pressuring is appearing in this thread just because it happens in other places. I could just as easily say that going outside of the lore brings with it a communal pressure to get anyone to accept anything, because that sort of mentality appears often among people with this mindset.

 

Honestly, this whole paragraph is madlib-able.

 

Even saying something as 'lore compliant' indicates that somehow your character is more valid that someone who falls within the margins of the written lore, or contrasts a claim made by an NPC character in the game somewhere that's being taken as fact by a circle of players.

 

This is another projection. No one even brought this up until you did. This assumes the worst about people that do not follow your own mindset.

 

It's that level of microagression and the constant cross examining by certain other players that's causing what is being perceived as a hostile environment by those outside the regulars here looking in. Something that would bear dispelling, in my opinion, as there are really good people here.

 

Alternatively, what's causing a perceived hostile environment is the blaming of one portion of a community for all of said community's problems, regardless of what that portion is.

 

All I've asked of people is to not take role-playing so seriously. If you're having fun scouring through the lore and writing off sections of it where you feel is forbidden for you to play, do so. What I'm asking of the wider community is to be welcoming of other perspectives when someone sees the same segment of the lore and sees an opportunity, rather than a wall.

 

Another projection. People are not necessarily taking roleplay "seriously" by being lore compliant and asking for lore compliance. Many people that are lore compliant spend their time pissing around and playing comedic relief characters. This entire post has been filled with random assumptions of people whose mindset you haven't even asked about or gathered enough information on to even make these assumptions.

 

It is entirely possible to see "an opportunity, rather than a wall" when it comes to working within lore guidelines. I could even make the argument that this passage implies a believed lack of creativity among people who enjoy compliance, and that it, again, implies that said people are not welcoming or open minded, or even care about whether or not the other person writes well.

 

I honestly don't think your words are doing a good job of building the bridge between people you're advocating for, here.

[Caspar]

Since coming here I've tried to be very consistent with my attitudes. "Players have a right to not suck," "Eorzea isn't Westeros," "I'm for things that expand the world, not shrink it," (By this I mean limit player options through sticking too rigidly to lore OR rendering irrelevant through contradicting it.) those old cliches. I've always felt that lore compliance is not as binary as people here make it seem, nor that being strict with yourself about the lore is somehow inherently not fun. I have only ever taken issue with three things: When headcanon or ambiguous lore is assumed to be ironclad, when people clearly are using the lore as a device to discourage RP they dislike, and when the standards are unevenly applied. As bizarre as my concept is, I'm not aware of anything outright contradicted by the original MMO source. I did this deliberately by not anchoring to a specific group in the lore like the Dragoons, so I sort of get where Alion was coming from, even if I disagree with the inflexibility of that approach. To me, lore is a guideline or tool to enhance the broad applicability of your RP and help form narrative context without a lot of extra, unnecessary footwork; thus why people want to play a Job like DRG or BLM.

 

But because it is a tool, it shouldn't be holding you back. If it is hampering you, modifying it a little really shouldn't be a big deal. The world is vast and constantly changing. If the lore adherence gets in your way and stops you from having RP you want to have, rather than applying it unevenly, be more open minded and accepting of less literal interpretations, because as we've seen here, Square isn't really aware of how these sorts of small, thoughtless blurbs can have a huge effect on the community. Any RPer trying to make a coherent story based around a really chaotic primary source is impressive to me, as someone who mostly just played in static settings from complete works before.

 

Except for the people who find enjoyment from stifling others RP who use lore as a bludgeon. They are dezgra.

[Hyrist]

Oli, you... are very familiar. And I'll leave it at that. I'm not going to make a speculation here.

 

 

I'm catching a lot of argumentativeness in your posts as well. As a suggestion, instead of disseminating my posts based off their diction, perhaps you would like to analyze it again based off of intent?

[align=left]

 

Some counter pints, truncated to be concise and prevent quote wallings:[/align]

 

 

[align=left]- If you feel you are unaffected by my statements, perhaps it is simply just that, you are not the addressee of my statements, and therefore are excluded from them, instead of thinking that I am implicating you in them?

[/align]

- Lore is subjective. Therefore it is perception. Anytime a lore lacks an absolute it is up to the reader to speculate upon on, and FFXIV also has a tendency to also completely disqualify its absolutes. 

 

Beyond this, you have to consider the fact that the majority of the lore we have is told through perception of character, therefore even if an absolute statement is made by then, it may, in fact, be false. Put bluntly, unless you're an SE staffer, most particularly the story staff. You're viewing the lore through a lends, we all are.

 

[align=left]- As far as me saying it's fanfiction. It's not meaningless to remind people of the core premise of what we are doing. In fact I feel as if it needs to be more emphasized, you're doing more the encourage that by the cross-examination trend then discourage it. It is meant as a reminder to take a step back from one's own 'personal stake' in the matter and remember that ultimately we are achieving the same goal through different means.

 

- As far as the 'Peer pressure', you may have missed it in all the thread trimming.[/align]

 

- Additionally, I never denied the responsibility on both ends of the the debate and repeatedly cited the problem as a two prong spectrum. However what I was describing was a case example of where one side is feeling it whether the other may not realize, in showing that there's an underlining premise in trying to enforce lore that comes off as unwelcoming to others. This does not deny the fact that there are those who, on the other end, are guilty of forcing their hand. We can touch further on that subject if you wish, but in that case I was directly addressing one side through the perspective of an other.

 

- As far as me 'making projections' this is a double edge sword of an argument. You made the assumption upon me that I haven't done my homework on this issue, instead of asking. I've done three years of research on this by repeatedly and privately inquiring current and former members of this community, as well as those without it. It simply just isn't as easy to post when you're ghosting on your phone and my home time is limited.

 

[align=left]I will however, take your criticism to heart to say that my words may well not build a bridge between the segments of the community - if I am to take it on faith that you speak for said community. So far, you're the only one with outspoken critical feedback on my delivery but I'm willing to learn more of your particular perspective on how this might be accomplished with better diction. 

 

However, keep in mind that all of this is pretty much just high-level discussion as I've cropped several of my posts for the sake of length and tangent - of which I am hopelessly prone. I wonder if this is causing a lot of the issues you're having with my posts - but I digress.[/align]

[Oli!]

I'm catching a lot of argumentativeness in your posts as well. As a suggestion, instead of disseminating my posts based off their diction, perhaps you would like to analyze it again based off of intent?

 

 

I mentioned your intent at the bottom of my post. It is possible to recognize both intent and diction, and the way that one may not serve the other readily. Please note that argumentation is not synonymous with aggression.

 

- If you feel you are unaffected by my statements, perhaps it is simply just that, you are not the addressee of my statements, and therefore are excluded from them, instead of thinking that I am implicating you in them?

 

 

I never said that I was implicated in them. I will nonetheless argue this points because I do not find them to be rational or conductive, and will therefore point out the damage that they do in hopes that you may think differently when it comes to dealing with the other side of the debate. I have engaged the other side on this topic as well (and have even done so about a page back).

 

[align=left]- Lore is subjective. Therefore it is perception. Anytime a lore lacks an absolute it is up to the reader to speculate upon on, and FFXIV also has a tendency to also completely disqualify its absolutes.

 

Beyond this, you have to consider the fact that the majority of the lore we have is told through perception of character, therefore even if an absolute statement is made by then, it may, in fact, be false. Put bluntly, unless you're an SE staffer, most particularly the story staff. You're viewing the lore through a lends, we all are.

[/align]

 

 

Lore is not subjective. If lore says the sky is blue, then the sky is blue. The only way that this becomes subjective is if one delves incredibly far into skeptical philosophy, at which point any sort of definition becomes meaningless in the first place. Lore can be ambiguous, at which point it becomes interpretative, but the words that are present on a page still have objective meaning.

 

Some lore, meanwhile, is not within the realm of an "unreliable narrator" at all. We have things that have been told to us by the developers, whether through talking to us, or through what happens during the game itself; these things are called Word of God, and stand as they are until changed or retconned later on down the road.

 

- As far as me saying it's fanfiction. It's not meaningless to remind people of the core premise of what we are doing. In fact I feel as if it needs to be more emphasized, you're doing more the encourage that by the cross-examination trend then discourage it. It is meant as a reminder to take a step back from one's own 'personal stake' in the matter and remember that ultimately we are achieving the same goal through different means.

 

 

We are all aware of the premise. It is impossible not to be aware of the premise through the act of doing the activity, unless one's perception of their actions is extremely lacking, and I highly doubt that anyone on this board is that unaware. Not everyone has a personal stake in this matter; my stake, for instance, is mostly academic. Cross-examination is not necessarily a bad thing on its own; there are those that use it for improper purposes, of course, but to disregard the entire idea of cross-examination as something negative is improper.

 

[align=left]- As far as the 'Peer pressure', you may have missed it in all the thread trimming.

[/align]

 

 

I acknowledged it in my post. I merely pointed out that it can, and has, been pointed in the opposite direction, even within this very thread.

 

- Additionally, I never denied the responsibility on both ends of the the debate and repeatedly cited the problem as a two prong spectrum. However what I was describing was a case example of where one side is feeling it whether the other may not realize, in showing that there's an underlining premise in trying to enforce lore that comes off as unwelcoming to others. This does not deny the fact that there are those who, on the other end, are guilty of forcing their hand. We can touch further on that subject if you wish, but in that case I was directly addressing one side through the perspective of an other.

 

 

This unfortunately does not change the generalized statement in which one side of the debate is implicated for the poor view that the greater community has of this website. As I said at the bottom of my prior post, I don't think that your attempt was very successful in communicating this thought.

 

[align=left]- As far as me 'making projections' this is a double edge sword of an argument. You made the assumption upon me that I haven't done my homework on this issue, instead of asking. I've done three years of research on this by repeatedly and privately inquiring current and former members of this community, as well as those without it. It simply just isn't as easy to post when you're ghosting on your phone and my home time is limited.

 

I will however, take your criticism to heart to say that my words may well not build a bridge between the segments of the community - if I am to take it on faith that you speak for said community. So far, you're the only one with outspoken critical feedback on my delivery but I'm willing to learn more of your particular perspective on how this might be accomplished with better diction. 

[/align]

 

 

Who in this thread on the opposite side of the argument have you asked in regards to their opinions on lore compliance, and what about them makes you sure that they are taking roleplay "too seriously"?

 

As for whether or not I think that building a bridge is possible, I do not think it is. I have stated such before; both opinions are diametrically opposed, and arguments in this vein have been going on for literal years.

[Nero]

I think the discussion has more or less run its course on this particular topic, so going to lock this now.

 

Those who wish to start a discussion on separate but related topics may do so.