The Proper way to Hate

[T'errin]

I know the title is weird to say the least, but I've been worrying about it for a bit now.

 

How do you show hatred for a group, or even an individual, without it being too much or obnoxious, but also actually showing a dislike for them?

 

With Stormblood on the horizon, I thought it'd be fun/interesting to make my character have a strong distaste for people who are very ALA MHIGO, and thought I would be able to find that decent mid-ground where she'll express her dislike of the way they handle their cause, without being their exact opposite.

 

The first time I tried it was at that Eorzean Alliance event in Ishgard, and said things in response to the Ala Mhigan crowds. I don't remember the exact words, but they were along the lines of "You should be happy that you're even here." and "Maybe if you'd all stop biting the hand that feeds you, they'd actually care.". Then when they left, I said "They're probably just gonna go raid another caravan.". After I left, I thought about it and really didn't like how I made her look like she extremely hated Ala Mhigans in general, but at the same time knew that it would be a decent hook if someone brought it up.

 

Then I tried again at the last Grindstone, where I got paired up against someone playing as an Ala Mhigan. This time I went ahead and toned it down, starting the fight with "I thought I was done fighting Ala Mhigans for the day.", then after his response of "If there is a fight, we're at it.", I replied "If only you all would stop fighting everyone in Thanalan.". I felt right off the bat that sounded too tame and even endearing, which I didn't want. So, during the fight I emphasized the anger she was giving in her blows, and my partner started too as well. I thought I was pulling off the right amount of hate, until my partner mentioned OOCly about how incredibly aggressive the fighting was. Which I was conflicted on again.

 

I'd really appreciate some tips and criticisms on how to hate, more-or-less.

[Domri Blackblade]

If it's IC who gives a damn how aggressive or not it is? IC isn't OOC. It seems your character's understanding of Ala Mhigans is pretty one dimensional and misguided, doing that thing where they judge all Ala Mhigans based off the sort that hang around LAM. Which is fine.

 

If you're asking a more well rounded way to understand Ala Mhigans and make it all seem less shallow, just know that it's not a purely Mhigan characteristic to be a brute. They were some of the biggest engineers and brightest minds from a technological advancement standpoint. There were different layers of society from what we know of the royals vs the rabble.

 

There's a huge master post floating around on all the gathere AM history that we are aware of.

 

Otherwise, don't pay any mind to OOC. If someone's getting offended over IC because your character doesn't like them and misunderstands much of their culture, that's not really your fault or responsibility.

[Koro Dotharl]

What happens IC stays IC. Racism and whatnot is actually fun to play around with as long as it doesn't bleed into an OOC problem. If it does, it has nothing to do with the RP but with the players themselves.

[T'errin]

I've actually gotten no flack for the hate OOCly, I was just concerned that I was pressing on too hard with my partner during the Grindstone when he mentioned the aggressiveness OOCly.

 

You actually put into words what I'm trying to go for, with trying to seem much less shallow. I'll have to find that master post and see what I can incorporate. I also forgot that there were Ala Mhigans in the Shroud until you mentioned LAM by name. Would the master post by chance have stuff on them as well, if you know?

 

Thanks!

[Verad]

You want to go for an intellectual hatred rather than a visceral one. Mean remarks aren't going to do that.

 

Condescend. Act like their superior in every possible way, but be polite about it because you know they can't help themselves. Find pseudo-scientific reasons that they've failed, and as a nation they've failed quite a bit. Somebody with the Encyclopedia can summarize the bullet points there.

 

This allows you to make a patronizing character who thinks, perhaps even quite reasonably in their view, that if only the Ala Mhigans behaved differently they'd be more successful. It's probably not a hatred that's going to come up much in the way you've presented it in your provided examples, but will be seen as more insidious by many.

[Domri Blackblade]

http://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthread.php?tid=14734&pid=239712#pid239712

 

There you go.

[T'errin]

You want to go for an intellectual hatred rather than a visceral one. Mean remarks aren't going to do that.

 

Condescend. Act like their superior in every possible way, but be polite about it because you know they can't help themselves. Find pseudo-scientific reasons that they've failed, and as a nation they've failed quite a bit. Somebody with the Encyclopedia can summarize the bullet points there.

 

This allows you to make a patronizing character who thinks, perhaps even quite reasonably in their view, that if only the Ala Mhigans behaved differently they'd be more successful. It's probably not a hatred that's going to come up much in the way you've presented it in your provided examples, but will be seen as more insidious by many.

 

That makes sense. Like how the high-born Ishgardians treat the low-born ones. I'll have to keep this in mind -

 

http://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthread.php?tid=14734&pid=239712#pid239712

 

There you go.

 

And this should make it easier!

 

Thank you to the both of you!

[Caspar]

You want to go for an intellectual hatred rather than a visceral one. Mean remarks aren't going to do that.

 

Condescend. Act like their superior in every possible way, but be polite about it because you know they can't help themselves. Find pseudo-scientific reasons that they've failed, and as a nation they've failed quite a bit. Somebody with the Encyclopedia can summarize the bullet points there.

 

This allows you to make a patronizing character who thinks, perhaps even quite reasonably in their view, that if only the Ala Mhigans behaved differently they'd be more successful. It's probably not a hatred that's going to come up much in the way you've presented it in your provided examples, but will be seen as more insidious by many.

 

I really like this approach.

A lot of my NPCs have some kind of unspoken prejudice that shows itself in the way they smile stiffly or avoid shaking hands with you, or casually make seemingly innocuous assumptions about your finances or interests based on your heritage. In that sense my PC is pretty unusual in that she is one of the few characters I play who is only ever unintentionally culturally insensitive.

 

The way I see it, with a powerful foe bearing down on Eorzea, internal showings of open racism would become less prevalent as there is a huge target of hate to replace them. But assumptions and systemic discrimination would probably continue unabated. Public violence and slur flinging really don't show up that much in the MSQ IIRC. For instance a lot of folks confuse Ul'dahn classism and Ishgardian xenophobia for racism. While these things often go hand in hand, they are still distinct and one doesn't necessarily imply the others within this specific setting.

[T'errin]

 

I really like this approach.

A lot of my NPCs have some kind of unspoken prejudice that shows itself in the way they smile stiffly or avoid shaking hands with you, or casually make seemingly innocuous assumptions about your finances or interests based on your heritage. In that sense my PC is pretty unusual in that she is one of the few characters I play who is only ever unintentionally culturally insensitive.

 

The way I see it, with a powerful foe bearing down on Eorzea, internal showings of open racism would become less prevalent as there is a huge target of hate to replace them. But assumptions and systemic discrimination would probably continue unabated. Public violence and slur flinging really don't show up that much in the MSQ IIRC. For instance a lot of folks confuse Ul'dahn classism and Ishgardian xenophobia for racism. While these things often go hand in hand, they are still distinct and one doesn't necessarily imply the others within this specific setting.

 

Yea, I like that approach as well. I think I was too focused on trying to bluntly show her prejudice, rather than being more subtle and letting my partners put it together themselves. I also realized that it makes more since for my character to be more subtle about it anyway, since she is out representing the House of Splendors too.

 

The thread Domri linked has already helped out a lot. I'm hoping I'll be able to improve myself with all of this new info.

[Valence]

While OOC and IC should remain strictly separate, no question asked, you still have to take care a bit of where your character can go by themselves. If left unchecked they can definitely paint themselves in a corner. And generally, you don't really want to go there, so you are right to ask that question.

 

I think the way you can play it though heavily relies on the type of character you play, and their personality. It's very hard to give general examples for that reason. I generally proceed by looking for the true reasons that makes my character hates, loathe, or simply dislike a group of people or a culture. I then try to imagine how that would translate through their personality. For example, a brutish character might be super blunt, roll their shoulders and say things like "why should I expect anything else from a fucking Mighan?", and it will work because it fits to a not very subtle, brutish character to act so.

 

Then... you will need to take into account other factors as well, like the personality and relationship with the target, and the context. If your character says the same as above, to a Mighan that immediately reacted by violence to something else, then it might be spot on and will make a point for the character, because yes indeed, what else to expect from a Mighan if not immediate violence huh? What will color your character view of someone else, added to the prejudices they have against them?

 

I feel like you are also trying to play the hardest all cases, which is playing on prejudices on a total stranger your character meets for the first time. It's always hard to do because the prejudices will sound either artificial, or hollow. Or just like basic racism. Or like a free, gratuitous attack for no reason at all. For that I think you have to be more patient. Wait for an opening. Just don't rush in without any reason to. Your character themselves might also need a reason to act. Most of the time it's not just that gratuitous. At best, what you can actually do to bring the situation to that end is to signify strongly that your character is glaring at them, with a burning hatred in the eye, or whatever you fancy. You don't need to immediately send the nukes and go to insults and fists first. But, if it's in a tournament like your case above, I don't see why your character could not taunt like crazy and play on a heavy, insulting prejudices. The fight itself is enough of a reason to do so. It's smacktalk.

 

Then there is the scale. Is it just mild disdain? Heavy condescension? Burning hatred? Basic ignorant racism or prejudices? Educated prejudices? That too will influence the way your character justifies and explains the prejudice to themselves.

 

Eventually, keep in mind that prejudiced people will always try to find a justification to their hatred. They will look for almost anything to prove themselves right. They will take the smallest thing that might go their way as an obvious justification for their behavior.

[Sophia Sormanu]

while you can hate in-game, the fine line to walk is not to use IC as a way to slander the OOC person for their choice of RP, does it happen ? yes it does.

[Jana]

I play a character who's also pretty racist, and while they're not an in-game race, Jana thinks most of the Ala Mhigan refugees are a weak-willed bunch. Rather than "hate", I usually show this attitude by making condescending remarks or taunts; she won't actively hate someone who isn't worth her time. Think about your character and if they have a background that justifies outright hatred or if they're just prejudiced.

[As'elena]

I don't see a problem with some good IC racism, whether it's against an actual race or a nationality. (All Duskwights are thieves btw, don't trust them.)

 

My two main characters tend to kinda dislike Ala Mhigans. Especially the patriotic ones.. Some do not forget the Autum War happened. Even if they weren't there for it themselves.

 

As'elena sees them in the same light as she does the Garlean Empire. Just that they were unsuccessful and got crushed by a slightly bigger bully. And my other character is a Garlean herself and believes any religious person to be dangerous and naive which gave birth to some prejudice and racism.

 

While they're not always so open about it and when they are it likely IS pretty obnoxious and unless they're meant to be diplomatic, not a care is given most likely!

 

Too little IC dislike and uneasiness in general if you ask me. At best I see the the occasional Miqo'te hater with the main reason always being the scantily dressed Quicksand visitors, or anyone in Ul'dah for that matter. It often strikes me more as an OOC reason than a compelling IC one, but each to their own.

[T'errin]

While OOC and IC should remain strictly separate, no question asked, you still have to take care a bit of where your character can go by themselves. If left unchecked they can definitely paint themselves in a corner. And generally, you don't really want to go there, so you are right to ask that question.

 

I think the way you can play it though heavily relies on the type of character you play, and their personality. It's very hard to give general examples for that reason. I generally proceed by looking for the true reasons that makes my character hates, loathe, or simply dislike a group of people or a culture. I then try to imagine how that would translate through their personality. For example, a brutish character might be super blunt, roll their shoulders and say things like "why should I expect anything else from a fucking Mighan?", and it will work because it fits to a not very subtle, brutish character to act so.

 

Then... you will need to take into account other factors as well, like the personality and relationship with the target, and the context. If your character says the same as above, to a Mighan that immediately reacted by violence to something else, then it might be spot on and will make a point for the character, because yes indeed, what else to expect from a Mighan if not immediate violence huh? What will color your character view of someone else, added to the prejudices they have against them?

 

I feel like you are also trying to play the hardest all cases, which is playing on prejudices on a total stranger your character meets for the first time. It's always hard to do because the prejudices will sound either artificial, or hollow. Or just like basic racism. Or like a free, gratuitous attack for no reason at all. For that I think you have to be more patient. Wait for an opening. Just don't rush in without any reason to. Your character themselves might also need a reason to act. Most of the time it's not just that gratuitous. At best, what you can actually do to bring the situation to that end is to signify strongly that your character is glaring at them, with a burning hatred in the eye, or whatever you fancy. You don't need to immediately send the nukes and go to insults and fists first. But, if it's in a tournament like your case above, I don't see why your character could not taunt like crazy and play on a heavy, insulting prejudices. The fight itself is enough of a reason to do so. It's smacktalk.

 

Then there is the scale. Is it just mild disdain? Heavy condescension? Burning hatred? Basic ignorant racism or prejudices? Educated prejudices? That too will influence the way your character justifies and explains the prejudice to themselves.

 

Eventually, keep in mind that prejudiced people will always try to find a justification to their hatred. They will look for almost anything to prove themselves right. They will take the smallest thing that might go their way as an obvious justification for their behavior.

 

I really appreciate that you see why I was concerned about how to play this.

 

I'm trying to find a nice balance between brutish and intellectual at this point, and I'll definitely need to think on how she'd approach a situation of a friend being pro-Resistance. I also agree on that I was trying too hard to make her prejudice clear, which just made it end up coming out very hollow and almost nonsensical in a way. I think I also need to try to work on the proper escalation as well, between how she'd act in a casual situation vs a bitter fight.

 

while you can hate in-game, the fine line to walk is not to use IC as a way to slander the OOC person for their choice of RP, does it happen ? yes it does.

 

That also another part of my concern on how to play this out. I really don't want to accidentally cross that line and make it seem like I'm attacking the person, and not their character.

 

I play a character who's also pretty racist, and while they're not an in-game race, Jana thinks most of the Ala Mhigan refugees are a weak-willed bunch. Rather than "hate", I usually show this attitude by making condescending remarks or taunts; she won't actively hate someone who isn't worth her time. Think about your character and if they have a background that justifies outright hatred or if they're just prejudiced.

 

My character's issue is that she has had to respond to many Corpse Brigade and Resistance extremist attacks/thefts/thugs, while also dealing with the natural hostility of the Ala Mhigans living in LAM. While at the same time, being cultured (if that is the right word) enough to understand that not all Ala Mhigans are like them, but having to remind herself of that at times.

 

I suppose I'm trying to go for both, but lean towards prejudice. This should actually help me out a lot.

 

Thanks!

[Zhavi]

Another way that is a different method, but that I've seen happen irl, is humor.

 

Telling jokes, telling stories. The guy I knew (and some of the friends in our group) who developed a racist bent against the natives up here didn't even realize it was happening. At first it was just funny stories, but then it started taking a decidedly negative and nasty turn. Instead of being funny stories about drunk people who happened to be natives, it turned into funny stories about those stupid worthless drunken natives who can't do anything right. After the jokes, it would be commiseration about the fact that there are any natives in the city at all, because, you know, all of them are worthless.

 

In reality, I think it happened because none of them knew this group of people as people. It was all observed or stuff they had to deal with. Naturally, it progressed towards making assumptions based off a limited amount of data. Who knows, I might have gotten up in it if my work didn't have me sub in to one of the local conferences, and I heard some pretty raw stories about how the cycle of abuse steals any chances from people while they're kids. But that's just the thing, it's so easy to make assumptions about people and their funny antics, to being disgusted with them for those funny antics, to feeling like you're better than them, to believing stereotypes. Because if they're all from the same or similar places, have accents that sound funny, look the same, and tend to act the same -- that's what you see, that's what you get.

 

And that's some of the worst kind of racism, to me, and something really interesting and rewarding to write. The insidious kind. The kind that you don't even realize is changing your way of thinking because oh yeah, man, I know exactly what you mean. That's a great story. Man, what a bunch of fuck-ups. Too bad they don't just go back where they came from, since they can't learn to be like us.

 

edit -

 

great examples of everyday racism couched in humor that can be used towards character behavior to imply a greater inner bias.

[T'errin]

I don't see a problem with some good IC racism, whether it's against an actual race or a nationality. (All Duskwights are thieves btw, don't trust them.)

 

My two main characters tend to kinda dislike Ala Mhigans. Especially the patriotic ones.. Some do not forget the Autum War happened. Even if they weren't there for it themselves.

 

As'elena sees them in the same light as she does the Garlean Empire. Just that they were unsuccessful and got crushed by a slightly bigger bully. And my other character is a Garlean herself and believes any religious person to be dangerous and naive which gave birth to some prejudice and racism.

 

While they're not always so open about it and when they are it likely IS pretty obnoxious and unless they're meant to be diplomatic, not a care is given most likely!

 

Too little IC dislike and uneasiness in general if you ask me. At best I see the the occasional Miqo'te hater with the main reason always being the scantily dressed Quicksand visitors, or anyone in Ul'dah for that matter. It often strikes me more as an OOC reason than a compelling IC one, but each to their own.

 

What do you mean all Duskwights are thieves? One very nice one sold me some moonscreen to protect me from moon burns. I didn't even know I needed it!

 

If it wasn't that I'm trying to portray my character as being a pretty relaxed person, I'd probably go down the obnoxious route with no questions asked. I never noticed the lack of IC prejudice until you just mentioned it now honestly. How a lot of Ishgardian players don't play on the xenophobia is kinda of a shame.

 

Another way that is a different method, but that I've seen happen irl, is humor.

 

Telling jokes, telling stories.  The guy I knew (and some of the friends in our group) who developed a racist bent against the natives up here didn't even realize it was happening.  At first it was just funny stories, but then it started taking a decidedly negative and nasty turn.  Instead of being funny stories about drunk people who happened to be natives, it turned into funny stories about those stupid worthless drunken natives who can't do anything right.  After the jokes, it would be commiseration about the fact that there are any natives in the city at all, because, you know, all of them are worthless.

 

In reality, I think it happened because none of them knew this group of people as people.  It was all observed or stuff they had to deal with.  Naturally, it progressed towards making assumptions based off a limited amount of data.  Who knows, I might have gotten up in it if my work didn't have me sub in to one of the local conferences, and I heard some pretty raw stories about how the cycle of abuse steals any chances from people while they're kids.  But that's just the thing, it's so easy to make assumptions about people and their funny antics, to being disgusted with them for those funny antics, to feeling like you're better than them, to believing stereotypes.  Because if they're all from the same or similar places, have accents that sound funny, look the same, and tend to act the same -- that's what you see, that's what you get.

 

And that's some of the worst kind of racism, to me, and something really interesting and rewarding to write.  The insidious kind.  The kind that you don't even realize is changing your way of thinking because oh yeah, man, I know exactly what you mean.  That's a great story.  Man, what a bunch of fuck-ups.  Too bad they don't just go back where they came from, since they can't learn to be like us.

 

edit - (snip)

 

great examples of everyday racism couched in humor that can be used towards character behavior to imply a greater inner bias.

 

Joking about never crossed my mind until you said it as well, which is odd since I hear them everyday when I go to work. I think I could have a lot of fun with drunk T'errin and racist jokes.

 

I adore Avenue Q btw. I need them for all future references.

[Mia Moui]

The Miqo'te are clearly the superior species of Eorzea and Keepers doubly so.  At least, that's the mindset that Mia Moui has most of the time.  It's just self-evident from her point of view but she'll provide a litany of "evidence" when provoked.

 

She is polite to others.  But that has everything to do with thinking herself and her kind superior. She doesn't suffer the perceived haughtiness of Elezen very gladly at all as it conflicts with her own attitude.  The politeness can quickly fall away if she's confronted with the crude stereotypes that many have about the Miqo'te.

 

The few times that I've had her actively be irascible or merely irritated is when she comes into contact with Seekers or with any Keeper who has adopted "Hyur values" such as monogamy and marriage.  She is especially intolerant of Keeper males who are monogamous or married because of their rarity.  Mia is barely tolerant of Seekers regardless of what they say or do.

 

How does this play out in-game?

 

The other day, I had a chance to do some limited, simple RP.  I'm not able to be in-game often so when I do, I have to maximize my time.  I attended an event and one of the people who Mia was speaking to was a Seeker.  He actually outranks her in the FC so she had a duty to be respectful.  But she could not resist digging at his (perceived) need to sleep soon because it was getting late for what she calls "day walkers."

 

The interaction didn't lead to any greater discussion of her presumptions or attitudes but it might have in another time.  It's done so before.  One thing I enjoy is gently mocking pair-bonding.  I'm careful not to have Mia go too far but I do enjoy listening to others justify their marriage.

 

Mia's racial stereotypes:

 

Seekers: They're Seekers

Elezen: Haughty, rude, insufferable know-it-alls

Lalafell: Twirpy, greedy, pervy, and violent potato people

Hyur: Two-faced men and their sex queens

Au Rah: Lizard people that smell like dirt

Roegadyn: Boulder people

[PSDuckie]

Tyll'a definitely hates the Garleans - not just because of the general Garlean hate in Eorzea, but also because his sister died fighting them at Carteneau and he blames the Garleans for her death.  That said, there have been things that have come up in RP that Tyll'a wouldn't even wish on the Garleans...

[Valence]

You just have to see how everyday, mild racism and sexism today IRL is a serious issue. Especially the one that is not necessarily done out of malice, but just conventions, traditions, fucked up jokes, etc.

 

I really appreciate that you see why I was concerned about how to play this.

 

I'm trying to find a nice balance between brutish and intellectual at this point, and I'll definitely need to think on how she'd approach a situation of a friend being pro-Resistance. I also agree on that I was trying too hard to make her prejudice clear, which just made it end up coming out very hollow and almost nonsensical in a way. I think I also need to try to work on the proper escalation as well, between how she'd act in a casual situation vs a bitter fight.

 

General rule of thumbs is, if the racial slur or witty remark sounds out of place, or rubbish, just don't. Wait for the proper moment. Or you'll end up failing at being witty, which is usually... not very good for self esteem and image, unless that's what you are aiming for (looking stupid ICly).

 

It gets especially more interesting when it's about friends that still are well.. part of the race or culture your character despises. It's always a duality where the character is trying to concile their friendship and feelings with what their deeply rooted upbringing tells them it's not right. It often can end up in very clumsy, rude remarks that are not necessarily meant as such (especially if your character happens to be a tsundere, or even a blunt, not very bright person...).

 

_____________________________________________

 

 

My character has her load of prejudices. She tends to act in a "no fucks given" way, but she's not overtly aggressive or abrasive by nature. She tends to shrug things off even in spite of her actually caring, which is something that tends to limit the amount of prejudiced slurs she can spit. However when she does that would often translate into mild snarky snipes, or rather mean attacks that she tends to hide or minimize under a lighter, indifferent tone.

 

While she's subject to prejudices like a lot of her fellow eorzeans, she is not stupid either and tends to unconsciously separate friends and good contacts with 'the rest of the barrel'. Once the person is friends with her, or cool enough to her eyes, she tends to magically forget their origins, and when she does remember, she shrugs it off and thinks "they are actually ok for a Mighan/Seeker/whatever". Overall, she has troubles conciliating the individual with the whole group most of the time. She's usually not ready to be a prejudiced ass with a complete stranger unless they give her (the smallest) reason to. That would mean otherwise for her to lose her 'edge'. Wouldn't look cool and all.

 

She holds prejudices against Mighans for mostly two reasons: the first one being her gridanian upbringing that told her that Mighans are by definition power hungry savages and barbarians that tried to invade once, and the second being a more rational one in the sense that she rather dislikes hypocrisy and she thinks them to be among the biggest hypocrites (invading warmongers that get to whine and complain when they get invaded by a bigger fish, which is a source of constant irony to her eyes).

 

All in all though, this is rather mild when compared to her serious disgust for Seekers that she (more or less) rationally compares to Coeurclaws, a taint that most Gridanians and especially common Keepers tend to see as an abomination (for different reasons for Keepers than gridanian Wildwoods). That can make her to actually more actively seek to send snipes directed at those, especially when she doesn't really like the individual in question. If a male Seeker exhibits the slightest macho behavior, shows off, or just thinks himself to be the 'equal' of a female Keeper, she can suddenly turn into a nasty ball of resentful prejudices yes, since she can be rather temperamental when things pierce through her external shell.