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[split] The New Wiki Is Here!


Eva

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Looks great!! :thumbsup:

 

I have one [hopefully quick] question. I saw this note under the page for NPC's:

 

This section is NOT for "NPCs" in your character storylines, as they are still considered "Player Characters."

 

I have been considering, after updating Eva's page, adding a few pages for a couple of the NPC's that exist in her backstory or elsewhere: her father, her former boss, her late fiancé, etc. Is there a setting that can be toggled to prevent these from appearing on the "Player Characters" list or is that something that could be amended (something like Player NPC's maybe?) or alternately how do you think this would most eloquently be handled. Thanks in advance!

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I have been considering, after updating Eva's page, adding a few pages for a couple of the NPC's that exist in her backstory or elsewhere:  her father, her former boss, her late fiancé, etc.  Is there a setting that can be toggled to prevent these from appearing on the "Player Characters" list or is that something that could be amended (something like Player NPC's maybe?) or alternately how do you think this would most eloquently be handled.  Thanks in advance!

 

^^ This. I was also wondering about something like this as well. Is there a way for alts or persons relevant to our Main's to have a page but not show up in the PC categories?? How would something like this work or what would you Wiki Masters recommend we do in these cases?

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Looks great!! :thumbsup:

 

I have one [hopefully quick] question. I saw this note under the page for NPC's:

 

This section is NOT for "NPCs" in your character storylines, as they are still considered "Player Characters."

 

I have been considering, after updating Eva's page, adding a few pages for a couple of the NPC's that exist in her backstory or elsewhere: her father, her former boss, her late fiancé, etc. Is there a setting that can be toggled to prevent these from appearing on the "Player Characters" list or is that something that could be amended (something like Player NPC's maybe?) or alternately how do you think this would most eloquently be handled. Thanks in advance!

 

^^ This. I was also wondering about something like this as well. Is there a way for alts or persons relevant to our Main's to have a page but not show up in the PC categories?? How would something like this work or what would you Wiki Masters recommend we do in these cases?

 

I thought something like this might come up, which is why I put that note there.

 

If Story NPC's (As in the characters that are NPC's in your storyline) are added along with the Player characters, things are going to look terrible and confusing, people will not know who is who.

Now, if they are added to the NPC's, then there is also the confusion as to what is in game (since the current list of NPC's is going to explode once 2.0 is released) and what is RP'd. There is unfortunately no toggle option for either.

 

Another option that may be looked in to is the possibility of having a separate section for NPC's within storyline.

 

The biggest problem I know will come up with it is usage and maintenance. We don't want to be creating pages people will not use and create the clutter of the last wiki. It's hard enough to get people to update their own wikis, many people are not going to bother updating extra pages like NPC's in their storyline. And really, why make an extra page if it's just a short little blurb about the character?

 

For now, I think if you are making character NPC's that you will not be roleplaying on a heavy basis (If you are roleplaying them actively, then it should be labeled an alt, and therefore made under the 'Player Characters') then maybe write a little biography for that character in your own characters wiki, to keep things organized.

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I would think a separate "storyline NPC" section would make a good deal of sense. I suspect these will be more than little blurbs about supporting characters - at least the characters I'm thinking of have had a lot of life breathed into them. I also felt this might come with the advantage that some PC's share a common bond with certain storyline NPC's and that NPC might have a sort of "shared ownership" and its wiki page updated by both/all involved parties.

 

I'm also not sure it necessarily would need its own section (not sure why anyone would want to look up a list of everyone's storyline NPC's) but some sort of a tag or something that would keep it off the list of Playing Characters or a little notation at the top of the page to indicate that this is not an actual PC.

 

I admit I don't know too much about structuring a wiki and the extent of what I've done is just creating/updating my own character page thus far. If this is not something that is really feasible, I suppose I can just put the relevant information under spoiler tags for the sake of keeping the page itself clean.

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I would think a separate "storyline NPC" section would make a good deal of sense. I suspect these will be more than little blurbs about supporting characters - at least the characters I'm thinking of have had a lot of life breathed into them. I also felt this might come with the advantage that some PC's share a common bond with certain storyline NPC's and that NPC might have a sort of "shared ownership" and its wiki page updated by both/all involved parties.

 

I'm also not sure it necessarily would need its own section (not sure why anyone would want to look up a list of everyone's storyline NPC's) but some sort of a tag or something that would keep it off the list of Playing Characters or a little notation at the top of the page to indicate that this is not an actual PC.

 

I admit I don't know too much about structuring a wiki and the extent of what I've done is just creating/updating my own character page thus far. If this is not something that is really feasible, I suppose I can just put the relevant information under spoiler tags for the sake of keeping the page itself clean.

 

If it's just tags (for example like how a page is tagged as 'female') then there is no point to it either. This is only creating stray, loose pages that don't have any real categorization. That's not something we want in the wiki, as it will become chaotic again.

 

To make it feasible at all it would have to be organized in it's own page, but again I only see a few people (like maybe Kylin, with a long list of story NPC's) making legitimate use of it. It's understandable a few people would make use of it, but because a few people would make use of it does not really warrant making a whole new section for such a thing. Again, people have troubles updating their own wiki's having another section like this I feel is just going to get to the point of stagnation.

 

Personally, I keep the descriptions of my story NPC's in my profile. The paragraph has enough in it that people are curious, and enough depth that people understand what I'm getting at.

In theory I think it's a great idea, but I really see a very limited amount of people actually making use of this. It seems like there would just be more pages for people to get lost in, as opposed to the imformation being right there about your character, and your story.

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Perhaps put it to a vote and see if maybe more than a few of us would make use of it?  I really don't see the harm to be honest and would prefer to avoid nested spoiler tags on my page if at all possible.

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*puts a foot in the door* Not to side with anyone, but I never really noticed how bad the disorganized Wiki was until I pawed through it quite a bit the other day. Yikes.

 

I'm sort of in favor for keeping PC-NPC's just a blurb on our main profiles. I can see the need for a separate page for them, as we all go through our character's histories at varying levels, however at the same time, I remember only once clicking on a NPC page, off of Kylins, then immediately hit my back button, as I figured it would take me hours to get through =P

 

After that I guess I haven't really clicked on others PC-NPC things. Mostly out of uninterestedness as most of them are unavailable and won't be used in a story arc for that character (except for Kylin's crazy family).

 

But perhaps there could be either a compromise or fix in the future?

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The poll was closed yesterday, voting pretty much finished the day before, and the results are in.

 

Of 36 voters, 11 (30.56%) wished for a PC NPC page on the wiki, and 25 (69.44%) did not. I do not believe that is a high enough percentage to add something like that to the wiki, and so we will refrain from doing so.

 

Other Alternatives to Separate Pages for Non-Alt PC NPC's

 

Spoiler Tags: Contain long paragraphs of information within spoiler tags to avoid wiki clutter.

Creative Content Organization: There are plenty of ways to code a wiki for content organization. Please google 'wiki formatting code' or check the helpful links on the wiki.

Parsing Down Data: A PC NPC plays a small roll, if possible parse down data for the wiki and keep other data for possible inquiry in to the character, if made.

 

Thank you everyone who voted and commented for your feedback.

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Would it be possible to maybe run a different poll? Maybe one asking something along the lines of if people would specifically be opposed to adding a section for NPCs?

 

I could foresee a situation where, for example, someone might be in favor of having a section like this, without intending to use that situation for their own character. Given that we're trying to keep the quality of pages up, someone who focuses mostly on their main character and less on alts and storyline NPCs, might not use this feature. They might, however, still be reading about other people's NPCs, which would drive the number of people in favor up.

 

I imagine that there would be more people okay with adding this as a category than those who would actively use it, much like I imagine more people would favor having a lore section on the wiki, than those who would contribute articles to it.

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30% is still a minority all things considered. While I do think it would be nice read about NPCs of all sorts, I am not sure that they deserve their own wiki pages. The stories we are telling are not about them. They are about our individual characters.

 

For example, I like Ysa. She is interesting to portray, and the crazy as hell head space she lives in is interesting. She does not, however, deserve her own wiki page. I think that the wiki will become a bit cluttered if we were to have pages dedicated to each individual NPC we as players happen to create. I have one exception to this. I think that pages dedicated to NPC organizations or groups that have been created collaboratively and have effects on a significant number of PCs across the community would be fine. (Though this can be accomplished by using the literature section of the current wiki.) The vote is taken and done. We should accept the results as they currently stand. There is nothing really to be gained, but unnecessary division by overreacting simply because the vote did not go the way we as individuals may have liked.

 

-Yssen

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I've promised myself to largely stay out of this debate for fear of being accused of showing favoritism to one side over another. I have my own personal opinion, but I really don't want to focus on that aspect. I've kind of been caught in the middle of this though (lots of chats in the background) and so I decided to leave some words of wisdom about the greater scheme of things. After all, I'm starting to see the past repeat itself in a way. Anyone can take this 'wisdom' or leave it, as I won't overrule any decision made either way. But I think people should hear this at the very least...

 

Once upon a time 3 years ago, the RPC was ruled by an RPC Council and a Charter. Everything was decided by majority vote. And by everything, I mean just about everything. There were polls to hold polls and end polls. Any amendment to the charter required a poll. If the RPC had a bathroom, we'd likely have had a poll as to what brand of toilet paper to use. As with any community, there was a minority that often got overlooked as a result of these ruling polls. This minority eventually got fed up with feeling like outcasts and, sadly, left the RPC and never looked back. Some of these RPers still exist today and even now look at the RPC with contempt because of the past. One can easily make the statement that those people 'need to get over it.' And while I agree with that to an extent, one can't hold them at total fault for their bitterness. It's only human nature after all. They felt like they didn't belong and that the RPC wasn't inclusive of all the different styles and beliefs like it promoted itself to be. Perhaps this was true, perhaps not. One can make the argument either way.

 

Fast-forward three years. The people who left because of those feelings have still not returned (despite returning to the game and RP in general), and may never return to the larger FFXIV RP community ever again, regardless of the vast changes that have been made since their departure. They still remember the past RPC not representing their needs and wants, and they want no part of that entity. This is sad, because some of these individuals are incredibly talented artists, writers, and Rpers who would have the ability to take the RPC to even new heights than it's already reached.

 

What's my point in all this? Sometimes, 'majority rule' isn't always the best option. Sometimes, it's perfectly fine to accommodate the minority without at all negatively impacting the majority. The end result is everyone being happy and getting what they want out of the community. I've already heard several people question whether they want to continue to support the wiki at all. That's not something I like to hear. And it's not healthy for the community that people feel that way at all :/. The minority is already being pushed away and history is slowly repeating itself. Do we really want to repeat the mistakes of the past? Just to satisfy personal beliefs as to how something that doesn't have a huge impact on the overall population should/should not be? I've learned over the years that there's usually more than enough room to accommodate most RPers. Sure, there are some circumstances where demands can't be met. But when the demands can be met without any real negative impact, why not go for it and make the minority feel like they still belong? There's already been some degree of a rift growing between certain sectors of the RP community and even something as small as this debate seems to be causing that rift to grow.

 

Just something to think about...

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30% is still a minority all things considered. While I do think it would be nice read about NPCs of all sorts, I am not sure that they deserve their own wiki pages. The stories we are telling are not about them. They are about our individual characters.

 

For example, I like Ysa. She is interesting to portray, and the crazy as hell head space she lives in is interesting. She does not, however, deserve her own wiki page. I think that the wiki will become a bit cluttered if we were to have pages dedicated to each individual NPC we as players happen to create. I have one exception to this. I think that pages dedicated to NPC organizations or groups that have been created collaboratively and have effects on a significant number of PCs across the community would be fine. (Though this can be accomplished by using the literature section of the current wiki.) The vote is taken and done. We should accept the results as they currently stand. There is nothing really to be gained, but unnecessary division by overreacting simply because the vote did not go the way we as individuals may have liked.

 

-Yssen

 

The poll was to see how many would use it. It wasn't a poll to determine overall people in favor or against the idea. As I said, I doubt 30% of the RPers will contribute to each individual lore section. But it is still important for that section to be there, as it might find benefit to greater than those 30% who are the ones editing it.

 

In general, wikis work on the basis of a minority of writers, who write for the majority's benefit. This is the case for just about any large wiki. These are the numbers that I feel should have been expected, for something that would've been used.

 

I don't think people are planning to make a page for every single one of their NPCs, either. So NPCs are worth only mentioning, others might have their own significant stories, etc, that would merit elaboration.

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I do not disagree, but the wiki already has sections in existence (the literature section, for instance) for NPC information to be posted in. The issue that was voted on was "Would you use individual pages for your storyline NPCs." The outcome basically used to determine whether NPCs would qualify to have their own individual character pages, just like PCs. The decision Deirdre has made is that NPCs will not be granted such rights. This does not mean that you cannot post up information about NPCs in the wiki, that is not at all what she has said. She has just said that it will not be done in a specific format/section of the wiki.

 

I guess what I am asking here is simply, what is it that people are losing exactly in terms of ability to post content on the wiki by her making this decision? Why is it important to have NPCs listed like PCs when we have the ability to simply utilize another section?

 

-Yssen

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Fine, I'm really done with dealing with all of this.

 

I put it to a vote like asked, stuck with my own personal opinion, and now that there is arguments after the vote came back to a no is beyond ridiculous. This is not a feature we had before, this is not something we require now especially with the difficult, tedious work already put in to organize it.

 

I'm washing my hands of this, if someone wants to implement it, by all means. Enough is enough.

 

Enjoy.

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I'm a little bit confused about where this intensity came from? I think the posts above were just in disagreement, but everyone here seems to be speaking in good faith. I don't really see this as an argument, or a big deal.

 

When I initially made the suggestion, I thought that some sort of a mechanism to feature more prominent NPC's (that may be linked from multiple characters' pages) from player stories made a lot of sense. I did not want to see these names appear as playing characters, but I also didn't want to have to include a lot of information about a prominent NPC within a spoiler tag. It seems to me that accommodations for this sort of thing could easily have been made with relative transpancy to most wiki users.

 

That is why I fail to understand the arguments posted against this because I would actually think most would find it preferable to have information about a distinctly separate character appear in a distinctly separate space, thus giving the reader the option not to click it if it doesn't suit their interests - and a handful of people have already commented that they don't care about these characters anyway. So logically it seemed like a win-win.

 

If the agreed-upon decision is not to include such a thing than I (and perhaps 10 others) will have to make alternative arrangements (for my case, probably a link to a very similar page off the wiki) but I will admit that it seemed like a wiki encompassing all things relating to RP should include provisions for that. I was only trying to offer what felt like a helpful suggestion. As I said on the poll thread I was not trying to diminish the work Deirdre has put into the wiki already and I'm sorry if she/others feel that way. The changes are good and I know myself and many others appreciate the dedication she has shown to it. Thank you!

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It came down to adding a category because Deirdre did not want "floating" pages around for the NPCs, Eva because she'd just got rid of all of them.

 

I removed my post because it probably did seem more attacky than it needed to be when the point was pretty much what others were saying. The vote did not come back no, you decided that it wasn't enough to make it a yes. That's the problem I have with the whole thing. What Blade and Kylin have both said both sum up why 30% should be plenty to allow people to make NPC pages, even if the category itself doesn't exist and they are floating.

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None of this answers why the relevant NPC information could not be placed under an existing section (such as Literature). The reasons against floating pages were from a largely organizational and coding stand point. They were made by the individual who is largely responsible for building the new wiki for this community. That individual polled the community, and the majority opinion came out not in favor of changing the status quo. A decision was made that the suggested changes would not be worth implementing. Simply put, the minority would have to deal with the status quo because that is majority opinion.

 

What transpired afterward was people making a case for why the minority opinion should be implemented anyway. The result is that a major contributor to the community has decided to no longer contribute. Frankly, after reading some of these posts, I do not blame her in the slightest for her decision. Why volunteer your time and energy if people are just going to question your decisions with out directly contributing. This is all just the situation as it currently. 

 

That being said, the actual important question has yet to be answered. As I stated above, I have yet to see any case made for why the wiki hampers people from posting content about NPCs under an existing section, or why it is important that NPCs have their own floating pages. I suggest that we answer or discuss these questions first, before this situation progresses farther.

 

- Yssen

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That individual polled the community, and the majority opinion came out not in favor of changing the status quo. A decision was made that the suggested changes would not be worth implementing. Simply put, the minority would have to deal with the status quo because that is majority opinion.

 

Please go back and read the poll, and what it was polling. The question that it was asking was, word for word, "In regards to making separate pages for your NPC's on the wiki, it comes down to, would you do it?" This was not a poll of "should we do this or not." It was to gauge the use. The poll was not pulling majority opinion, yay or nay, towards the idea. It was would you maintain pages for it, yes/no. Deirdre even clarified it herself when she wrote in the poll, that if "If you want to vote 'Maybe' please vote No or do not vote at all. We want to gauge how many people are actually wanting to use this idea."

 

It was not a poll for/against the idea. It was not a poll of opinion. It was not a poll of should we change it. Please go back and read the poll.

 

That being said, I don't think it was the intent of anyone to make Deirdre feel bad. We all know she has put a lot of time and work into this wiki. I don't think anyone is discounting that or that anyone is ungrateful to her.

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The pages would be not allowed at all, Yssen. We couldn't place them in Literature, or any other relevant category such as Player Characters, because they would not fit in according to Deir's guidelines she posted (because they're alts/NPCs). Nor can we create a category because it was voted down. We couldn't let them be floating because she didn't want anymore floating pages. If you would read what Eva said, you'd understand why she would rather have an actual page than use a massive spoiler tag to hide the text on her current wiki, as well. Sorry if you misunderstood that part.

 

It has been expressed many times how much we appreciate the work she put in the wiki. But we should allow people (even if they're a minority) to use the wiki to make their RP experience better, not hinder it.

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Yssen, I think you may be misunderstanding what the poll said. It didn't ask who was for or against adding Player NPC pages, it asked who would make use of them. It's not the same as asking if people whether they're for or against it.

 

I'm trying to understand all sides of this myself, because I know what it's like when people want to change something you worked really hard to make, but I also don't want to feel like I have to clutter my character page with my NPC's life story before I get to why she's relevant to my character.

 

For now, this is only making people angry and turning us against each other. I really don't want that. Having a separate page for my NPCs isn't important enough to me that I'm willing to contribute to the divisiveness over it. So please, everyone, let's just...

 

[align=center]fziXi.gif[/align]

 

At the very least until we can figure out a solution that's fair for everyone.

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I for one would not want individual pages for NPCs in the RPC wiki.

Any amount of thought put into how the old wiki ended up as it was should give you some hints as to why, at least in my oppinion, it's a terrible idea.

With every game launch, a large number of players learn that the game is not for them, which is fine.

With the launch of XIV, many of the RPC members found this for themsleves (and I too would have left if the RPC wasn't around back then), and left the game and these very forums.

But what was left behind was numerous wiki pages, many little more than stubs, some the very bare-bones template that was handed out.

Now imagine this but with the addition of NPC pages. It could very easily and quickly go way out of hand, with creative but short-lived players making perhaps a dozen or more sheets for their characters associates, only to leave them abandoned or unfinished. I hope you can see what I mean with this atleast, even if my example isn't entirely clear...

 

You can now chime in, saying "Oh, we'll just delete unused pages." or "We can set a minimum requirement!" or something, but it's obviously not that simple right? Who gets to determine when this happens, or what the specific rules about this would be? Maybe we could hold a poll on that, and then swiftly ignore the results because they don't suit you.

 

Also: Removing the majority of your wiki page because of a little disagreement. Sure is mod material in here.

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I believe that regardless of how the poll was phrased, the purpose was to see if an overwhelming group was interested in having a new category. You can ask "do you like sandwiches" to confirm that you should make sandwiches for a picnic without saying specifically "Should I make sandwiches for the picnic." If we can, let's try and ignore that tiny detail, it's not really important.

 

The poll was requested, it didn't have to go up, but it did, and the results came back that a section will not be added. I understand being disappointed that this section won't go up, but there are plenty of ways to deal with it rather than fighting what was supposed to be a peaceful decision. In fact, here's some ideas:

 

1) Yes, maybe some people don't like them, but spoiler tags. Many people in the poll majority stated, though, that they prefer to read everything about a character and their alts/NPCs on one page. We all want people to read all the goodies we put on our wiki. We spent a lot of time on them! Why not make it easier to view in one neat little box?

 

2) Outside links. If you want your character related NPC to have their own page, make it OUTSIDE the wiki. And link to it off of your page :D! It keeps the wiki uncluttered like the majority wants and still gives the minority their separate pages. Those that want can click out of the wiki and those that don't can go "Oh, they have a character named BLAH" and move on!

 

3) Just make an open section on your wiki, forget spoiler tags! I personally don't mind GIANTLY LONG wiki pages! That's what the index thingy is for! If I want to read about your NPCs, I will click your index link for it! Honestly, I think this is the best route, screw the concept of "wiki bloat." It gives me a quick, easy, one-click way to link directly to your NPCs if I want to read about them.

 

I'd REALLY like to see helpful suggestions on this post from this point on, rather than this back and forth on whether 30% is enough to warrant more pages. The decision, the FINAL decision, based on the requested poll is that, no, there will not be a section like PCs and NPCs added. Let's try and come up with some other way of making each other happy, rather than trying to sway people away from a decision that's already been made.

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