Linkshell Hall Bumping

[Kylin]

Hey guys, this has recently become a minor problem so I wanted to make a quick post about it.

 

Threads in the Linkshell Hall are being constantly bumped lately when not needed. At least a couple of other LS leaders have become agitated by it and I'd rather a bumping war not start anytime soon.

 

Please limit posts in the Linkshell Hall to primarily updates about the shell in general. Random commentary such as "cool concept!" or "looking forward to RPing with this group" are unnecessary. A high volume of the recent comments in this part of the forum can/should be kept in PMs. Constant bumping of threads to the top of the list can stir up a competitive atmosphere and unfriendly feelings toward said shells.

 

Thank you for your understanding in this matter!

[Magellan]

If the purpose of that forum is for advertising only (and not for linkshells to talk amongst themselves) is there a way to make it admin access only for posting?

 

LS leaders would then submit their LS post to admins to be put up.

 

Oh! And maybe sticky the LS forum policy in that forum and ask ppl to read it!

[Deirdre]

I want to say that I took a look at the Linshell Hall page and didn't find any evidence of actual LS bumping, more conversations between interested people. Regardless, who cares? It's not like they are getting more traffic because of it. Some LS's with 0 posts have more than a thousand views.

If you don't want people to post, maybe adding that feature would be a better way of handling the problem you think is there.

 

On a side note, maybe a discussion should be had instead on making the Linshell Leader meetings transparent, uneditable and unrevisable.

[Kylin]

If the purpose of that forum is for advertising only (and not for linkshells to talk amongst themselves) is there a way to make it admin access only for posting?

 

LS leaders would then submit their LS post to admins to be put up.

 

Oh! And maybe sticky the LS forum policy in that forum and ask ppl to read it!

 

Making it admin access only would be only more of a headache (for both myself and those who wish to post a new shell up). Besides, it would also make LS update posts and edits less manageable. This issue is only a problem at this stage of pre-launch, and will almost certainly go away post-launch (like it did in 1.0). That's the only reason I'm posting about it now. Though a sticky may be a good idea ^^

 

I want to say that I took a look at the Linshell Hall page and didn't find any evidence of actual LS bumping, more conversations between interested people. Regardless, who cares? It's not like they are getting more traffic because of it. Some LS's with 0 posts have more than a thousand views.

If you don't want people to post, maybe adding that feature would be a better way of handling the problem you think is there.

 

On a side note, maybe a discussion should be had instead on making the Linshell Leader meetings transparent, uneditable and unrevisable.

 

Not bumping in the normal sense, no. But the random little posts here and there ARE a minor problem. Otherwise, I wouldn't have LS leaders contacting me and saying as such, nor would I be making this post. As I said in my OP, we don't need Linkshells looking negatively upon other shells based on something as minor as this that can easily be prevented. Back in the day, things were no different either. The section was reserved primarily for updates from the linkshells, not actual discussions that would keep the linkshell at the top of the listings. Questions and updates are fine. The examples I listed in my OP are not, however.

 

Again, this is only a temporary issue that will resolve itself on its own post-launch. This post is just to increase awareness to the temporary issue. Adding features/posting restrictions is highly unnecessary when a simple reminder like this is generally effective enough.

 

As for the LS leader meetings...that is up the LS leaders and them alone. The meeting minutes are already very transparent and only parts THEY want left out are left out. And they have every right to privacy in certain discussions.

[Deirdre]

I know plenty of leaders and no one has complained at all... So I'm not sure where this is coming from. These posts are harmless and useless towards promoting. It's not about who is on top of the list, that's just terribly silly. If someone is going to get up in arms every time a post is made, disable posting. I don't think anyone has malicious intent.

 

Regarding the LS Leader meetings, I'm sorry but no, you don't have a right to exclude things in an interaction like that. On the moderator forum, yes you have a right to privacy as mods, but not in a visibly posted transcripts of a meeting that is essentially public. This is not a private conversation between friends.

[Kylin]

I know plenty of leaders and no one has complained at all... So I'm not sure where this is coming from. These posts are harmless and useless towards promoting. It's not about who is on top of the list, that's just terribly silly. If someone is going to get up in arms every time a post is made, disable posting. I don't think anyone has malicious intent.

 

Regarding the LS Leader meetings, I'm sorry but no, you don't have a right to exclude things in an interaction like that. On the moderator forum, yes you have a right to privacy as mods, but not in a visibly posted transcripts of a meeting that is essentially public. This is not a private conversation between friends.

 

I know plenty of leaders as well? If they're going to complain about something like this, they'd go to the forum staff, not you (no disrespect intended). And nobody is "up in arms." Annoyed would probably be the better term to use. This is simply a matter of etiquette that has existed since this community was first established three years ago. And it works well.

 

I'd like some clarification to the whole "you don't have a right to exclude things in an interaction like that" statement. As I may be horribly misinterpreting that and don't want to say what I'm thinking of saying in response until I know for sure what's meant by it. Are you talking about the -placement- of the meeting transcripts? The redaction of certain portions requested by the leaders? Or something else?

[Merri]

Could always have a subforum for people to post discussion threads for their linkshells and include a link on their actual ad to said thread. Give people a place to ask questions that isn't on the ad itself, and leave the comments on ads strictly for linkshell leaders/officers to post updates if needed.

[Kylin]

Could always have a subforum for people to post discussion threads for their linkshells and include a link on their actual ad to said thread. Give people a place to ask questions that isn't on the ad itself, and leave the comments on ads strictly for linkshell leaders/officers to post updates if needed.

 

We actually did this back in the day with the "Pub" section. We knocked down the administration center (originally used for LS to post rules or something like that) and put up a tavern . It worked for awhile. Maybe putting it back up again would do some good, though it'll probably get removed again later down the line when the forums die down.

[Deirdre]

I think there are a lot more forum etiquette issues than that, but it's your forum and your choice what to moderate. What I'm saying is its kind of just a little silly to get 'annoyed' by people having a conversation in a thread about the topic. I don't think anyone in there had the intention of bumping. Just my opinion.

 

I'm speaking entirely of redaction. I just wish for more transparency for the community.

[Eva]

I was just thinking this was kind of how it was done before.

 

If the sequence of the posts is a concern, is there a way for them to be posted in random order for that forum rather than by the date of the last post on it? I know with PHP this is not too difficult to accomplish in the code, but I'm not sure if it's been done before. For that particular forum it would make a lot of sense.

 

"Here are your RP communities, in no particular order..." :thumbsup:

[Magellan]

Tbh, I kind of agree with Deirdre, and never knew bumping/having enthusiasm over one's guild/LS could be annoying in the first place.

 

However, I also agree mods have the right to run the site they are modfing however they see fit.

[Kylin]

The randomizing order thing is something I recently tried to look into actually. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that likely. I'll look into it further though just to be safe. It's entirely possible to change the order of posts based on other criteria though, rather than "most recent posts." But none of these criteria really make sense, save maybe alphabetical...but I'm not sure I like that ordering system much either.

 

As for the redaction issue...that's something to take up with all the LS leaders. Not myself or the staff here. THEY want stuff redacted for their own sakes. To give an example...this last meeting only had one redaction really. It was a PM someone shared with the group. That PM and parts of the conversation surrounding it were redacted for very good reason (privacy reasons). Heck, in that instance I would have made the decision to redact that even if the LS leaders wanted it public because it was a PM on this site, and I don't believe in the exposure of something like that without the author's consent.

 

I'll probably go ahead and implement Merri's idea for LS discussions/banter though, leaving the LS Hall strictly for announcements and such.

[Curtis West]

But but but... why would anyone get mad about their fellow RPers getting a bump of any kind on top of the LS list? I think the "competition" mentality is the problem, if that's the case, rather than bumping. I've not seen any "bump" post, I have seen enthusiasm however. Can we as a community refrain from making that a bad thing? Maybe we can just feel happy for other Linkshells besides our own getting some exposure? Let's approach this with a sense of camaraderie for fellow RPers. We're all in the same boat, aren't we? :love:

 

 

Also where are the meeting notes posted? I'd love to have a look. 

Nevermind, found them.

 

The concept of privacy in any form on a forum is tricky. In my past (non-RP) guild on GW2, a whole back and forth PMs were posted due to some much needed clarification. Then one party got really upset because they thought that it was against the rules to disclose PMs. I think a line needs to be drawn in any community, to either point out that PMs are in fact private messages that should not be allowed to be discussed in public (such as a guild leader meeting) or labeled as Player to Player messages that allow for direct communication, rather than privacy. :thumbsup:

[Eva]

Since you seem to have your own log that differs from what was posted, why don't you share with us exactly what it is that's bothering you so much?  Every representative in those meetings has been fair and mature and I'm sure if you need some clarification he or she would be glad to provide an explanation as to why a particular line of chat was redacted.

 

EDIT TO APPEND: If whatever was said really is of an inflammatory nature and you don't want to create any additional drama, perhaps sending a PM to whichever leader/rep said it may also be warranted.

[Averis]

To the OP, the only problem I see coming from trying to restrict "random LS posts" to "LS updates" is that instead of other LS leaders getting annoyed at random LS banter bumping threads, they will get annoyed at the LS management staff posting random LS updates instead. IE the same end result except that they will be directing their annoyance at the LS leaders instead of just random LS members/interested parties. That may actually become a bigger problem and then more meetings will be redacted when LS leaders complain to other LS leaders that they are bumping their thread unfairly.

 

If this forum system is anything like PHPBB, maybe place all LS leaders into a separate "group" so that you can apply permissions to just that group to post in the LS section. But still, the above problem will likely come up anyway.

[Ellie]

To the OP, the only problem I see coming from trying to restrict "random LS posts" to "LS updates" is that instead of other LS leaders getting annoyed at random LS banter bumping threads, they will get annoyed at the LS management staff posting random LS updates instead. IE the same end result except that they will be directing their annoyance at the LS leaders instead of just random LS members/interested parties. That may actually become a bigger problem and then more meetings will be redacted when LS leaders complain to other LS leaders that they are bumping their thread unfairly.

 

If this forum system is anything like PHPBB, maybe place all LS leaders into a separate "group" so that you can apply permissions to just that group to post in the LS section. But still, the above problem will likely come up anyway.

 

Restricting the Linkshell Hall to linkshell leaders crossed my mind as well, but I'm afraid it would make it so that members cannot create their linkshells freely, they'd have to wait for a moderator to give them the permissions.

 

As for people trying to bump their threads with contrived updates, I think that's fine so long as they actually have an actual update. After a while it might be hard to find something new to say about their linkshell.

[Mtoto Wamoto]

*sigh* Seems like every day, there's a new dilemma on the RPC. I can't speak for anyone else, but I find it disheartening to see such trivial issues get so out of hand and out of context to the point where the subject matter at hand is just flopping back and forth.

 

I'll speak my mind and leave it at that since I'd rather not get too involved in this thread.

 

First thing's first since the topic has...shifted. 

 

Hey guys, this has recently become a minor problem so I wanted to make a quick post about it. 

 

Threads in the Linkshell Hall are being constantly bumped lately when not needed. At least a couple of other LS leaders have become agitated by it and I'd rather a bumping war not start anytime soon. 

 

Please limit posts in the Linkshell Hall to primarily updates about the shell in general. Random commentary such as "cool concept!" or "looking forward to RPing with this group" are unnecessary. A high volume of the recent comments in this part of the forum can/should be kept in PMs. Constant bumping of threads to the top of the list can stir up a competitive atmosphere and unfriendly feelings toward said shells.

 

Thank you for your understanding in this matter!

 

I don't think that we should necessary "prohibit" (which is the impression I'm getting from this) people from using the linkshell hall to discuss things privy to the linkshells. People who are interested, wish to support a linkshell through kind words, or offer suggestions on the linkshell page, should be able to. Likewise, the linkshell page serves as a easy way for open communication between its linkshell members and the rest of the community on the RPC. Telling us we shouldn't do that would only serve to cause players to migrate back to their own individual sites and do communication there. If the RPC is suppose to be a central hub for roleplayers, allow it to use the tools to do so, rather than make things even more complicated than need be. Creating a entirely separate thread simply for discussion seems silly and unnecessary and would really just clutter up the forums even more. I was under the impression the revisions to the forums were done to streamline things and make things much more presentable. 

 

Further, this isn't a competition or a popularity contest, and as much as my knowledge goes, I don't think anyone who has posted in the linkshell hall pages have tried to insinuate such behavior. Rather, the things people are posting on those pages have been largely supportive and good-natured. This is what the RPC should be breeding and striving to maintain, instead we have threads cropping up which serve only to cause infighting and needless conflict. Linkshell leaders and mods of the RPC, if you don't want linkshell hall related threads that show up on the main forum's recent topics list anytime they are posted in, perhaps you should consider making a completely separate forum for the linkshell hall which is independent of the main forum and have it be organized in alphabetical order. This can be done on Guildwork and Enjin, so I don't think its beyond the realm of possibility to have it function in the same manner here. 

 

Lastly, it's of my own personal opinion that many of the recent attempts to "quell" and "expunge" a seemingly unfriendly and divided atmosphere are actually doing the opposite, further propagating and elevating the undue stress, drama, and conflict amongst ourselves. Unnecessary polls to decide the direction of the community, telling us to limit public link shell interactions on a public forum, and having linkshell leader meetings (which were made to discuss cross LS RP and events mind you) are slowly taking on this undertone of a council established to decide the future of the community based on what the heads of a few groups feel. I know I'm not alone when I speak on these concerns.

 

I know everyone is trying to speak on things with good intent and what they believe is the best for the community, but please, let's stop trying to govern the community at large. The RPC doesn't need a governing body, only basic moderation. The RPC should only ever serve as an open place for the public to speak on RP happenings and promote cross-character interactions. If a "couple" people take offense that a few groups are trying to be open and active, perhaps they should take a step back and see what the real issue at hand is. If they feel like they're in "competition" against other link shells, they are looking at the community with the wrong mindset to begin with. We shouldn't feel like we're competing against one another, after all, we're working together in cooperation because we are a community. Otherwise, we're nothing but a handful island nations in a vast sea called separation. Linkshells who feel like they're being drowned should work to be more open, more willing to speak to new players outside of welcome threads, and work to interact publicly in hopes to further facilitate open ended communications. Based on the original purpose of this thread alone, I feel as if the people who are trying to be open and supportive are being punished because others are choosing to be less open.

 

Again, I can only speak for myself and myself alone, but I feel there are those who are with me when I say that the trivial and petty conflicts which are cropping up on this site are only serving to push people away from the RPC.

[Averis]

Restricting the Linkshell Hall to linkshell leaders crossed my mind as well, but I'm afraid it would make it so that members cannot create their linkshells freely, they'd have to wait for a moderator to give them the permissions.

 

Sure, I certainly know how that is, it was just a thought if this is something that the LS leaders felt strongly about. There could easily be a new section for LS concepts (since we get a lot of that already) so people can discus a new LS while they wait for their access to post in the listing, which shouldn't take more than a day anyway in normal circumstances. Just saying, it's an option to control the situation without anyone having room to argue that "posts are being bumped unfairly by random people" etc.

 

As for people trying to bump their threads with contrived updates, I think that's fine so long as they actually have an actual update. After a while it might be hard to find something new to say about their linkshell.

 

Well, if the LS leaders are already annoyed by "random" people posting/bumping threads, it's not too far of a stretch to imagine that they would be more annoyed by LS leaders that just seem to have news to post about their guild everyday. "You shouldn't post each time to get a new member.", "You shouldn't post each time to update your site.", "You shouldn't post to congratulate your LS each time they beat a dungeon." etc etc.

 

I'm just playing devils advocate here. I know the drama that can and has happened. Sometimes it only take a little thing to turn into a big issue because someone felt something was unfair, then a group backs each side and then you have a problem. "Why shouldn't I post about that kind of news. I'm proud of my LS" "You need to post only important things!" "To us those are important!" etc. You get the idea.

 

 

EDIT: Just to be clear, I personally feel that the LS posts should remains open. I'm just offering suggestions, even if I don't agree with them since it's not ultimately my decision. (I like to be helpful). But, seriously, each LS is different, there really isn't a competition between them when they are not the same and will not appeal to every potential new member anyway. Maybe having a "directory" at the top would help matters some?

 

I also agree with the above post. Good job!

[Curtis West]

Seems like the trend is a minority of people who are easily upset at certain things bugging the administration to act on their feelings. Then when the administration acts on these things, be it telling people no not post in threads (this is a community forum) or locking threads that have no reason to be locked, etc... those actions make me draw away from the RPC and see the community in worse light than I had originally. If I feel that way, I am sure other new people do too.

[Averis]

Seems like the trend is a minority of people who are easily upset at certain things bugging the administration to act on their feelings.

 

This happens in almost all communities online. I manage a couple myself and you really have to learn when to draw the line, but it can be hard when you want to be helpful to your members. Too, you might not always be aware of the full situation from all sides. So sometimes you get blindsided with a complaint when you didn't even realize it was an issue in the first place. I certainly sympathize with moderators, it can be a hard, thankless, job.

 

Sorry, off topic...

[Orlog]

Seems like the trend is a minority of people who are easily upset at certain things bugging the administration to act on their feelings. Then when the administration acts on these things, be it telling people no not post in threads (this is a community forum) or locking threads that have no reason to be locked, etc... those actions make me draw away from the RPC and see the community in worse light than I had originally. If I feel that way, I am sure other new people do too.

 

Agreed here. I understand that we're trying to work here to keep people happy as best as we can, but it needs to be understood that everyone is going to be upset about something, no matter what we do. A lot of the things that seem to be causing turmoil within the community these days always seem to be so tiny, but get farther because these people seem to cry out the loudest. This isn't really a mentality that I'd like to see between a community of grown adults.

 

I know this kind of stuff was discussed in the LS meetings, but for some reason some didn't want to "open that can of worms". I guess I'm glad that this issue is seeing the light of day more; the general consensus being that it's completely unacceptable.

 

With that being said, I see no reason to lock LS threads or take away the ability for people to discuss matters related to the LS in said thread. However, if it's the owner, or someone affiliated with the group constantly bumping the thread in order to try to be at the top of the list... ? Well, I'm pretty sure that's not wanted here, but I'm unsure if the above is actually happening or not.

[Eva]

I agree with you Curtis. I admit I've felt a bit more hostility here lately as well, and I can understand why some groups have, in the past, withdrawn from the RPC more than others. I think this is unfortunate and I do think we should be acting more in the spirit of cooperation and collaboration rather than competing with one another.

 

This particular issue doesn't directly impact our group since recruitment is temporarily closed within Crystalline for in-character reasons anyway (not because we're not looking forward to RPing with new folks - we really are!). So I suppose maybe I'm a good neutral voice?

 

I don't think there's any harm in the bumping of certain linkshell threads for the purpose of asking questions and such. I'll confess I had been under the assumption at first that it was designed to operate the same way that it was in the previous RPC where bumps were only intended for LS news update, so I was surprised at first. But as long as the material is relevent and appropriate to open discussion in public, I don't see any harm in this.

 

Just as a point of clarification, the previous iteration of the RPC did have a separate 'pub' forum for discussing particular aspects of a LS, or providing a separate forum for Q&A. This was removed for the sake of cleaning up the forums, and this seems like a good alternative, as long as things aren't really being bumped senselessly - but even what is 'senseless' is going to be a polarizing matter that would likely stir up some folks.

 

As long as Inactive or Disbanded groups are removed promptly to help avoid confusion, I don't think it matters greatly what order the threads appear in.

[Curtis West]

I tend to trust the leaders / admins to have a good sense of judgement until it's proven otherwise. For example, when it comes to examining the evidence for why a member is upset and making a judgment call, going case by case basis. Does this member have a reputation of complaining about everything? Are there truly inflammatory things said or are the hurt feelings unjustified? Is LS thread bumping an issue worthy of being brought up and moderated? How would that make other people feel who previously had no issues?

 

These are some questions I trust the moderators / leaders to consider. Personally, I think this is a non-issue and the administration is going overboard policing this. I honestly am disappointed with whoever complained about this, too. It shows a lack of... I don't even know, being a good sport? Seeing other guilds as competition rather than friends you want to succeed... Not cool.

[Magellan]

I like Mtoto's post: I am very happy with the LS I have found, yet I still visit other LS pages when the idea sounds good and offer my vocal support. Why is this a bad thing? I've seen nothing but positive interactions on these LS pages, and no signs of competition or putting othr LS down.

 

If the LS forum has a 'look don't touch' mentality, newcomers will miss out on a chance to interact with that community, maybe become allies, friends, or members!

[Kylin]

I don't like the fact that this is turning into a quasi-witch hunt accusing those who had legitimate concerns of having a 'wrong' opinion.

 

This is pretty much a moot point now anyway, as I'll be creating a new "pub" type of section similar to the past for these kind of LS discussions/commentary. It'll probably get nuked/merged with the RP Discussion thread several months post-launch when things die down. But for now, I think that's the perfect middle of the road solution.

 

Edit: For the record, I'm also a bit insulted at the assumption that I "caved" to a "minority's" demands.