Leadway with Lore

[Evie]

Okay another question for you Lore Masters.

 

As there seems to be a very small amount of known lore (in comparison with other worlds such as Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, etc) is there a certain amount of openness with making thing up or making assumptions based upon what is known? And if so is there a place where this agreed upon information is based?

 

For example in my other post we were discussing the possibility that the Circle of Knowledge might possibly be an academy of learning for AFTER you've learned everything from a guild. If enough people agreed that this is the case, then it would become part of "accepted" lore.

 

Or is it more, here's the lore, this is how it is end of story type of thing. I'm sure there are people on both sides of the argument, but thoughts?

[Havoc Snow]

I think most people like to stay as close to the line as possible. It's why you'll see people playing characters from Ishgard are VERY vague with their character histories, because we have very little info yet on that city-state. As far as the Circle of Knowing goes, all of its former members are now listed as Scions so I think it's safe to assume the Circle of Knowing was dissolved when Louisoux died/disappeared. I don't recall any reference to it in ARR, though I may have missed it.

 

I'm not sure why everyone thinks that the Circle were all mages, Yda is quite obviously not a mage and in fact she at times doesn't even seem all that bright, and Thancred is listed as a Bard even though he is absolutely nothing like a Bard beyond knowing a lot of tales and what not, he doesn't even use a weapon available by any class in the game (throwing knives).

 

In short it's better to ask questions and get clarifications, or err on the side of caution. Most people I've found tend to be wary of making assumptions or leaps when it comes to lore because you never know when they might change something and force you to retcon.

[Xha'li Moui]

What Ash said, with so much left unknown its probably best to err on the side of caution to avoid needing to do any major retcon's later on as more lore is released.

[Evie]

Yes, the thought of having to Retcon is bad. But as a writer I thrive off of in-depth backstory and so far I've been running into wall because there doesn't seem to be much lore past what was seen in the first game (which I didn't play and so don't know a lot about) and with what is posted on the Official website. This lack of consistent direction has my head screaming because of giant gapping holes in the knowledge. I understand that this is a relatively new world and so there isn't a lot yet, but it just makes my eye twitch because when it comes to an in-depth backstory I'm essentially forced not to have and to me the in-depth stories allows more uniqueness to the character's personality. Everyone is the sum of their past exploits after all.

[Havoc Snow]

Eorzean lore and facts

A comprehensive look at the Seventh Umbral Era story arc

Final Fantasy Wiki

Gamer Escape

 

I'd use these links and be sure to look around the forum to fill any holes that need filling. If you look hard enough (and know where to look) there is actually a lot of available lore for Eorzea, there are just a lot of things left untold so far because they never came up during the original game. There's nothing wrong with asking questions as well when you need help filling in any plot holes.

[Eva]

Good links Ashren!  Beat me to it!  8-)

 

You don't really need to know every little tidbit of lore before you can start hashing out a character concept, as well.  Having some understanding of what the races are like and the names of some of the places and what they're like is probably a good start.  But I've found you don't really need all that much lore to make a compelling and interesting character.  There are a lot of parallels that can be drawn between Eorzea and other worlds and you can figure out most things like personality, family, and backstory without having to know too much about the lore itself.  And if there's something you're not sure about or there's no lore for, you can often find creative ways to explain away this sort of gap in information.

 

And then as you familiarize yourself more closely with Eorzea and its inner workings you might find other things to integrate into your character's already-existing story and kind of build outwards from there.

 

For my own part, Eva has been fashioned much more by her interactions with other people than she has from any specific lore-related stuff.  Once the game comes up and RP starts happening again, I think you'll find it will all progress very naturally and fluidly.  :thumbsup:

[Evie]

THANKS!!! I'm sure this will help a lot. And I've already started asking questions that I've had when it comes to beginning to build the back story. Granted the questions I've asking have been pertaining more to my character's parent's backstories, so if things have to be retconned and changed it won't cause much in the way of change to my actual character. Like I said I'm very big about my backstories and such.

[FreelanceWizard]

Also, don't forget our own lore hunting thread and Merri's Garlean empire thread. There's a lot of good information in those.

 

As there seems to be a very small amount of known lore (in comparison with other worlds such as Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, etc) is there a certain amount of openness with making thing up or making assumptions based upon what is known? And if so is there a place where this agreed upon information is based?

 

For example in my other post we were discussing the possibility that the Circle of Knowledge might possibly be an academy of learning for AFTER you've learned everything from a guild. If enough people agreed that this is the case, then it would become part of "accepted" lore.

 

I really can't get behind this sort of "accepted fanon" concept, because not every RPer goes to this site, and no matter how plausible your argument may seem and how many RPC members might agree with it, someone is going to disagree. (This is actually a good example, because my read of the Circle of Knowledge from ARR's main scenario quest is not that it's an academy, so much as it's a society of "wise people.") Those disagreements are going to cause OOC grief, whether by preventing you from RPing effectively with people who disagree or by allowing the existence of people who say, "this is the RP Community's Fanon, and we're the majority, so you have to do what we say." Additionally, retcons from devs filling in lore later are always a major concern.

 

So, my very strong recommendation is to stick to what's available and reasonable extrapolations thereof. Reasonable extrapolations don't, in my mind, include sketching out major NPC organizations. If you really want an academy for your character's backstory, you can:

 

• Assert the existence of one in a village or town somewhere and explain why it exists, particularly in a world where that's not the typical means of higher education;
  
• Connect with a guild that runs an academy (such as Unsung Heroes) and, with their permission, work them into your backstory;
  
• Hew closer to lore and remove the element from your backstory.
  

 

One nice part about XIV having such a wide open lore and a big, largely unspecified world is that you have a fair amount of freedom to build your backstory within the boundaries of lore without clobbering others' stories.

 

I also completely agree with Eva that while a backstory is good, most of the interesting elements of a character tend to come from your IC interactions. You can start with a fairly vague backstory, then fill in elements later as needed.

[Aysun]

That's why RP is more than just being a writer to me. Characters with simplistic backstories often are the most interesting to interact with, because they are dynamic and real feeling, whereas elaborate backstories mean a lot of character development is already DONE and the RP will never live up to the experiences in the backstory.

 

Lore is gud. We don't have much lore and are for the most part very loyal to what we DO have, and it hasn't stopped us from creating awesome characters thus far!

[Evie]

Okay so when I started this post I meant it more as a curiosity of how this group of people handled things. In my experience different groups handle things differently, so I was just curious how y'all handled things.

 

For example, with Star Wars, as this is where my experience is with RP, past forum RPs and my own personal writings, essentially there is two sets of lore. The official lore of Star Wars, which is solely relegated to the six Star Wars movies. This is what Lucas himself has said on the subject. All the other lore (the books, encyclopedias, etc.) is it's own separate world, an alternate reality. Which essentially says that a person can make up whatever lore up they want, i.e "fandom" is acceptable.

 

As I'm not familiar with Final Fantasy in anyways, I came here as an experienced RPer looking for information about lore. Instead I get lectured on how to properly RP.

 

If I offended anyone into thinking that their way of RP was wrong or that not having an in-depth backstory makes your character a generic character and not interesting, I apologize if it came across in that manner. That's not what I intended.

 

However, how I RP and write is my PERSONAL choice, and being told that I should only "build my character through RP" and not worry about going into an in-depth backstory because that's the best way to do it, makes me generally feel as if I am being told that I RP WRONG. A character with an in-depth backstory can hugely change through RP. I just like to know who my character is and where my character comes from.

[Myxie Tryxle]

A lot of this is also a matter of personal preference. The way I see it, there are two possibilities:

 

1. You write a story and later have to retcon it.

2. You don't write a story and no lore ever appears that would have contradicted it.

 

Which is the bigger crime? You have to decide for yourself which is the bigger risk, and as someone said, use common sense when it comes to creative license. Writing a little family history to figure out where your character comes from and what their values are is likely fine. The lore is never going to touch a huge fraction of what's available, possible, or underneath the surface in the larger setting, and I consider that exploration a major part of the draw and potential of roleplaying.

 

Now if that family history involves your mother being the secret consort of Louisoix giving you magical powers over space and time, including having brunch with the Twelve every Sunday, well, good luck with that.

[Aixat]

The point in seeking out information on the topics mentioned is to avoid retconning the RP. 

 

Is it really necessary to seem so rude to people new to the community?

[Arnvidar Bekker]

A lot of this is also a matter of personal preference.  The way I see it, there are two possibilities:

 

1.  You write a story and later have to retcon it.

2.  You don't write a story and no lore ever appears that would have contradicted it.

 

Which is the bigger crime?  You have to decide for yourself which is the bigger risk, and as someone said, use common sense when it comes to creative license.  Writing a little family history to figure out where your character comes from and what their values are is likely fine.  The lore is never going to touch a huge fraction of what's available, possible, or underneath the surface in the larger setting, and I consider that exploration a major part of the draw and potential of roleplaying.

 

Now if that family history involves your mother being the secret consort of Louisoix giving you magical powers over space and time, including having brunch with the Twelve every Sunday, well, good luck with that.

 

 

 

Except no one should ever have to retcon a story ever unless you pull something out of this world such as making yourself a god of some sort. What happens with your character stays with your character regardless of if you wanted something different to happen. And never did she want to become a god ever, a central place of knowledge for magic users is a good idea. Each guild would be more specialized in there obvious schools such as Black Magic and such but the central place of learning is a place for everyone to learn about each school.

[Evie]

I NEVER said anything about WHAT I wanted for my characters parents, as I'm personally of the mindset that story should be found out through RP so I don't give character spoilers. I am NOT out to make my character to be some FF14 OP God, again I'm familiar with how to RP and make my characters fallible and human, not Gods.  

 

I am a person curious as to who these entities and people are because, again, I am NEW to the Final Fantasy Lore, which is why I am asking questions in the first place. What I had found was very lacking in any real detail and since it was on a wiki I figured that maybe the post had just never been updated. So I figured I'd ask here, with the people who have experienced the lore first hand as they played the first game.

[Havoc Snow]

Except no one should ever have to retcon a story ever unless you pull something out of this world such as making yourself a god of some sort. What happens with your character stays with your character regardless of if you wanted something different to happen. And never did she want to become a god ever, a central place of knowledge for magic users is a good idea. Each guild would be more specialized in there obvious schools such as Black Magic and such but the central place of learning is a place for everyone to learn about each school.

I'd say in a perfect environment this would be true, but when you write outside of the lore and you try to add things or make assumptions based on facts that don't exist you end up either playing a game that very few others are playing (meaning your interpretation is drastically different from everyone else), or you're forced to change your idea to conform to new information. As Freelance suggested, creating your own academy to fit these means is far safer than suggesting that another in game faction could fill this role when we don't know enough about them.

 

Okay so when I started this post I meant it more as a curiosity of how this group of people handled things. In my experience different groups handle things differently, so I was just curious how y'all handled things.

 

For example, with Star Wars, as this is where my experience is with RP, past forum RPs and my own personal writings, essentially there is two sets of lore. The official lore of Star Wars, which is solely relegated to the six Star Wars movies. This is what Lucas himself has said on the subject. All the other lore (the books, encyclopedias, etc.) is it's own separate world, an alternate reality. Which essentially says that a person can make up whatever lore up they want, i.e "fandom" is acceptable.

 

As I'm not familiar with Final Fantasy in anyways, I came here as an experienced RPer looking for information about lore. Instead I get lectured on how to properly RP.

 

If I offended anyone into thinking that their way of RP was wrong or that not having an in-depth backstory makes your character a generic character and not interesting, I apologize if it came across in that manner. That's not what I intended. 

 

However, how I RP and write is my PERSONAL choice, and being told that I should only "build my character through RP" and not worry about going into an in-depth backstory because that's the best way to do it, makes me generally feel as if I am being told that I RP WRONG. A character with an in-depth backstory can hugely change through RP. I just like to know who my character is and where my character comes from.

I think you might be misunderstanding the responses you are being given, no one is trying to tell you that how you RP is wrong, or even attempting to convince you to do things differently. Ultimately what everyone is trying to say, in their own way, is err on the side of caution when coming up with things not covered in the lore, you never know if the material might get added later on.

 

A good example would be having your character be from a place in the world that has very little information offered about it, for the sake of this example we'll use Ishgard. Now let's say you put a lot of backstory into this character, covering all different kinds of facets of their life in the city, how they grew up, what it was like there, what the city looked like, etc. Then let's say that they open up the city and we get a flood of new lore about Ishgard that entirely contradicts everything you wrote about your character, it could potentially make you retcon your character, or even make it entirely obsolete.

 

So in short, as I've said before, it's always safer to simply err on the side of caution.

[Arnvidar Bekker]

I'd say in a perfect environment this would be true, but when you write outside of the lore and you try to add things or make assumptions based on facts that don't exist you end up either playing a game that very few others are playing (meaning your interpretation is drastically different from everyone else), or you're forced to change your idea to conform to new information. As Freelance suggested, creating your own academy to fit these means is far safer than suggesting that another in game faction could fill this role when we don't know enough about them.

 

 

This game has five weeks before release, they won't be able to fit in that much new lore as they have to prep for the game release. When playing any game within the first few hours you should know enough lore to know where you are, what year it is, and what is going on but no one does currently, so if people create things that wouldn't affect currently existing lore so badly to the point where everyone on server would have to follow the story then i'd say its fine.

[Havoc Snow]

When playing any game within the first few hours you should know enough lore to know where you are, what year it is, and what is going on but no one does currently

Where you are: Eorzea (Region), either Aldenard or Vylbrand (Country), and either in Ul'dah, Gridania, or Limsa Lominsa (City) which are in either Thanalan (Ul'dah), La Noscea (Limsa Lominsa), or the Black Shroud/Twelveswood (Gridania).

 

What year it is: 1577, the Seventh Umbral Era, as of the first few hours of the game it will be the 27th Sun of the Fourth Umbral Moon, month of Rhalgr the Destroyer.

 

What is going on: Depending on whether you are a new character or an old character, you are either setting out for the first time as an adventurer in your respective city, or returning to Eorzea from the void after being stuck in limbo for five years. The world narrowly survived the brink of destruction at the hands of the Elder Primal Bahamut, and is still currently in the grips of all out war with the Garlean Empire.

 

I think that about sums up all the questions you needed answered in the first few hours.

[Vash]

I am honesty super disappointed with everyone here. The tone of this whole post has taken a horrible turn and it has went from asking a question to insults. I would appreciate it if everyone stopped being so negative to each other. This is not asking how to create a back story for a character or whither an in depth back story matters. She is asking how lore works as she is not new to RP she is new to FFXIV. So please anyone responding keep this in mind. Thank you so much everyone.

[Myxie Tryxle]

In trying to straddle the fence on this one, I clearly failed to make my point, so I'll try again.

 

Whenever this kind of debate appears, the initial knee jerk reaction is discouragement. People imagine the worst case scenario (your character is a lost love-child of a well-known NPC, your character tamed and rides Bahamut, your character is a sparkly half-vampire half-werewolf half-demon, etc.), and in urging you to err on the side of caution, they squash creativity that is otherwise reasonable and constructive (i.e. creativity that is bounded by common sense).

 

Those that are telling you how they are dealing with the problem are telling you how they play. You're free to decide if that works for you. Personally, I can't play a character without writing up some backstory. I had RP characters I made in WoW and leveled to the level cap but never actually RPed. Because I didn't do that background, I didn't have any idea who the character was. I never put forth the effort to RP them because I had no idea who they were and didn't come to care about their story. That's just how I play (or fail to play, as it were). Do what works for you and your character, otherwise, you won't get the kind of experience you're looking for.

 

I've always found if you do that, you'll find other like-minded players, and those are the ones you'll enjoy playing with the most. This is a large and growing community. Err on the side of whatever's the most fun for you, and you'll find others who play the same way, or are at least accepting of your style.

 

To be completely honest, the availability for lore in this game is currently a 1 on a scale of 10. There's far more speculation than confirmation in the majority of areas, and that's not necessarily a bad thing, just a little frustrating. Don't be afraid to make a mistake or two, because everyone will be making a mistake or two in the next couple months.

[Havoc Snow]

Staying on topic regarding lore, it honestly felt like Tanaka did not care about lore. He created a cookie cutter world that was basically just Vana'diel 2.0, and was content to leave it at that. When Yoshida took over it seemed like he was more focused on wrapping up the story they had so they could get to a point where they could focus on ARR, though it can be said that Yoshida expanded the world from what it was into what it became a great deal. With 2.0 we've seen a HUGE amount o lore coming in compared to what we had before, and there seems to be a great deal of dedication towards writing up stuff, in many cases, just for us roleplayers and lore fanatics.

 

I think once the game launches and people play through everything, doing the side quests, leves, and the main scenario you'll find the game world opens up a lot of possibilities and provides a lot more information than we have now. I know just from my experiences with beta that the story seems much more in depth than it did starting out before, and they can only go forward from there.

[FreelanceWizard]

(...) so if people create things that wouldn't affect currently existing lore so badly to the point where everyone on server would have to follow the story then i'd say its fine.

 

The problem is that, continuing with my example, if you assert that the "Circle of Knowing in Sharlayan is an academy" is a true statement, you are in fact affecting existing lore in a way that everyone on the server would have to follow it. If I disagree with you OOC, and our characters meet and the topic comes up, what can I do? I can accept your take on the lore as true, I can dodge the subject, or I can call your character nuts. If I do the former, you have forced me to follow your story. If I do either of the other two, it screws up the RP. Either way, the result isn't positive.

 

Now, sure, you could say that it'll never come up for your character -- perhaps you'll never discuss it IC, and you have a reason why no one else from Sharlayan or the Scions of the Seventh Dawn ever encountered you -- but then what's the purpose of the assertion narratively? Why force others to accept your construction if it doesn't further anything in the story?

[Sounsyy]

Where you are: Eorzea (Region), either Aldenard or Vylbrand (Country), and either in Ul'dah, Gridania, or Limsa Lominsa (City) which are in either Thanalan (Ul'dah), La Noscea (Limsa Lominsa), or the Black Shroud/Twelveswood (Gridania).

 

What year it is: 1577, the Seventh Umbral Era, as of the first few hours of the game it will be the 27th Sun of the Fourth Umbral Moon, month of Rhalgr the Destroyer.

 

Just wanted to correct a couple inaccuracies here real quick. 

Hydaelyn - The World.

Aldenard - The Westernmost of the Three Great Continents. This is where Eorzea is located.

Eorzea - The Realm that is comprised of Aldenard and its surrounding islands.

Vylebrand - Large island that Limsa Lominsa is a part of. The island features marbled cliff faces, tropical climate, and an active volcano on the north end of the island named O'Ghomoro.

 

There are six great city-states which are like nations or countries controlled by a single city. They are as follows: (listed as city-state and then the region under its control)

Ul'dah - Thanalan region

Gridania - The Black Shroud

Limsa Lominsa - La Noscea region

Ishgard - Coerthas region

Sharlayan - Dravania region (the city is currently abandoned though)

Ala Mhigo - Gyr Abania (this city and region has been conquered by the Garleans)

 

Also, the year is now written as "the Year 5 of the Seventh Umbral Era" or "the 5th year of the Seventh Umbral Era" The Sixth Astral Era ended in 1572 and the year resets with each new era. So we are now 5 years into the Seventh Umbral Era at the launch of ARR.

 

Think that's all I wanted to correct. ^^; Message me if you need any lore help, Evie!

[Havoc Snow]

There are six great city-states which are like nations or countries controlled by a single city. They are as follows: (listed as city-state and then the region under its control)

Ul'dah - Thanalan region

Gridania - The Black Shroud

Limsa Lominsa - La Noscea region

Ishgard - Coerthas region

Sharlayan - Dravania region (the city is currently abandoned though)

Ala Mhigo - Gyr Abania (this city and region has been conquered by the Garleans)

Since the response was made in regards to "where are we" I excluded the last three from the list because they can't even be entered, let alone start in them, and were thus not a part of where we could be within the first few hours of the game. As far as everything else goes, well I guess I stand corrected.

[ArmachiA]

If I'm going to use something in my backstory that has no outright lore, I try to be as vague as possible so I don't have to do too much retconning later.

 

For instance: Armi was a priestess for Nymeia, she lived in temple of sorts with other priestesses, and will be leaving the temple officially once launch/Phase 4 hits as she is kind of mad at the Gods or whatever. There's not really a lot of lore that says this kind of thing is even in the game. So the temple is somewhere in someplace (She'll usually answer "Oh you know.. outside of Gridania somewhere") and has a "few" people living there. No specific numbers, no specific anything. If it comes out there's no official preisthoods or anything, then it was just a small faction of dedicated worshipers who took her in. I don't have them heavily ingrained in the lore churches just in case. I made it vague, but still completely plausible and, somehow, making it vague makes it more plausible, since it's from Armi's point of view and she doesn't know everything about the church.

 

On your specific question, Unless it states in the lore that's what it is, you'll never get a consensus on whatever "it" is does. Ever. Look at the Duskwight thread, while everyone is happily collaborating, everyone has come up with different ideas of the tribes since their is no lore. It was an easy fix to say Tribes do different things and they just continued talking about it. The Hipperion thread is doing the same thing, coming up with rules for their subset of their tribe but not expecting anyone else to follow those rules. It's not really cool RP wise to make up lore about canon things and expect the rest of the community to treat it as fact. So, no one does it. If you're unsure about something, but need to discuss it for whatever reason, keep it as vague as possible until confirmed. That's really it.