Arcanist Attributes and future jobs.

[Havoc Snow]

So after I saw the two conflicting answers regarding sharing attributes between Scholar and Summoner it would appear that the latter answer, question number 41, is the correct answer. In other words Jobs are now officially specializations that you'll kind of be forced to spec towards. While nothing stops you from playing both a Scholar and a Summoner, the idea that whatever attributes you allocate will be the same on either Job means that you can either be good at one and mediocre (I won't say bad because that may not necessarily be true) in the other, or you can be more or less a little more than mediocre, we'll say average, at both.

 

I find this this fairly disappointing, and not really just for Scholar and Summoner (since I'd probably never play Scholar except to level it), but for any other second Jobs we see in the future. In the event they add even more Jobs that use a different primary attribute, like a Gladiator Job that might require points in Mind or Intellect, our options while broadened will also be limited since your attribute distribution will determine which of the two Jobs you main.

 

Anyways, this was a cautionary tale for all those people who plan on making Arcanists when they start and had hopes of playing both Scholar and Summoner, be careful where you spend your points.

[Myxie Tryxle]

I read the news from the announcement today, but didn't see any specific information about stats for arcanist jobs. Perhaps you could post the pertinent information here for reference?

[Havoc Snow]

Q41: I heard that you can reallocate your attribute points, but will this be something you can do easily multiple times?

 

A41: It won’t be something you can do so easily. For example, it’s not like you will be able to allocate them so today you can challenge the Great Labyrinth of Bahamut as scholar, and tomorrow allocate them so you can go as summoner.

 

The wording of this implies that when allocating your attribute points if you spec them towards one particular Job, say for example dumping all your points into Intellect (or is it Intelligence?) for Summoner, you will be lacking in the other Job because you won't have the increased attributes that someone who actually spec'd for Scholar would have.

 

He also says the following at the start of the video:

 

Q7: Will the arcanist’s attribute points be shared between summoner and scholar?

 

A7: No, they will not be shared.

 

However from what a few folks have said on the beta forums, he says this at the start then goes for a break and upon returning when the second question (#41) pops up he corrects himself saying he was mistaken and then answers it with the former response, stating that they will in fact share attributes. This is all coming from people on the beta forums, but it wasn't done so in a speculative way and there were numerous people agreeing on the information so... take it how you will. We won't know 100% for sure until launch, but I was already completely let down by 

 

Q8: Are there any plans to implement additional egi?

 

A8: If we were going to implement additional egi, it would be when we raise the level cap.

 

So I won't get my hopes up.

[Eva]

Please disregard. Post above mine was edited after I posted this to include the same info.

[Havoc Snow]

Also this:

 

Q7: Will the arcanist’s attribute points be shared between summoner and scholar?

 

 

A7: No, they will not be shared.

 

It sort of contradicts the other.

I updated my previous post to include that and the explanation being given for the contradicting statements.

[Eve Malusion]

Thank you for pointing that out. I can confirm he did say that they share it after the break, also going to go edit the main post in the thread I made about the letter.

[Moltove]

I'm somewhat disappointed in this as well.

 

THM have an ability (I think) that switches their attributes around (temporarily), so perhaps Arcanists will have a 'stance' that does something similar?

 

Ah well. I dunno what to think. maybe it's that we have all these choices with classes, it's with Jobs that we have to actually buckle down a bit with? Perhaps Materia will let us get multiple gear sets to "spec" a certain way? If that's the case, maybe we should use attribute points for just HP/Mana/Defence, while we use Materia as our spell dmg/heal crit/ect. ect...

[Havoc Snow]

I'm guessing the intent behind this is to make Jobs like what everyone has been calling them since 1.0, Talent Specs. You can play either one of them, but if you want to optimize you'll need to main one of them and spec all your points into that.

[Eve Malusion]

Yoshida did say that you can reset your attributes, but as far as I understood he heavily implied that it was costly enough that you would not want to do it on a regular basis.

 

Think the words he used was along the lines of "It's not like you'll be a scholar today, a summoner tomorrow, and then a scholar again the day after."

[allgivenover]

I wonder if this means Cleric stance can be used to cover the disparity.

[Myxie Tryxle]

They've already stated that differences in starting attributes will be insignificant when it comes to end game play. If you consider a Lalafell or Miqo'te (with the worst stats for tanking) versus a Roegadyn or Highlander (with the best stats for tanking), their overall difference in the three physical stats is 9 points. From what I've read, you get a max of 30 points to allocate at level 50. Assuming the primary stats are intelligence for summoner and mind for scholar, you could do a 15/15 split and not be noticeably disadvantaged. Slot materia with dualistic caster stats (crit, spell speed, determination), and you should be able to build a dualistic arcanist that you probably won't even be able to tell isn't 100% maximized for one job or the other.

 

This is all speculative, as I was hoping I had missed some information on their powers. It may end up being moot once we see the actual gameplay. Maybe scholars will get a "scholar stance" the way conjurers get cleric stance, warriors get defiance stance, paladins get sword/shield oaths, and monks get fists of fire/earth/wind.

---

I wonder if this means Cleric stance can be used to cover the disparity.

 

This might work if you built specifically to focus on mind and used cleric stance when you were playing arcanist or summoner. If cleric stance is disallowed for arcanist/summoners or if the arcanist/summoner class favors int over mind, it wouldn't work. Cleric stance isn't viable to switch int to mind for healing due to the % reduction in healing ability.

[LandStander]

I am up in the air about this. I like the idea of class specialization, but being someone who loves to play and try out all jobs (except usually main tank jobs) it kind of stinks. Though I wonder if stats will really make that much of a different. I don't recall them being that significant in 1.0.

[Havoc Snow]

They've already stated that differences in starting attributes will be insignificant when it comes to end game play.  If you consider a Lalafell or Miqo'te (with the worst stats for tanking) versus a Roegadyn or Highlander (with the best stats for tanking), their overall difference in the three physical stats is 9 points.  From what I've read, you get a max of 30 points to allocate at level 50.  Assuming the primary stats are intelligence for summoner and mind for scholar, you could do a 15/15 split and not be noticeably disadvantaged.  Slot materia with dualistic caster stats (crit, spell speed, determination), and you should be able to build a dualistic arcanist that you probably won't even be able to tell isn't 100% maximized for one job or the other.

 

This is all speculative, as I was hoping I had missed some information on their powers.  It may end up being moot once we see the actual gameplay.  Maybe scholars will get a "scholar stance" the way conjurers get cleric stance, warriors get defiance stance, paladins get sword/shield oaths, and monks get fists of fire/earth/wind.

---

I wonder if this means Cleric stance can be used to cover the disparity.

 

This might work if you built specifically to focus on mind and used cleric stance when you were playing arcanist or summoner.  If cleric stance is disallowed for arcanist/summoners or if the arcanist/summoner class favors int over mind, it wouldn't work.  Cleric stance isn't viable to switch int to mind for healing due to the % reduction in healing ability.

While I know we aren't supposed to really discuss the data mined info, I can say from what I saw they don't get anything like a Scholar Stance or anything like that, and as far as doing a 15/15 split between Mind and Intelligence, that's what I meant when I said you could do this to be average (at best), while if you wanted to be optimized in a role you'd have to pick being good at one or the other, there's no way to play an Arcanist and be optimized in both because even if you try to do things to cover the disparity, you'll still be worse than someone who didn't bother and just spec'd for a single Job.

 

As far as using Cleric Stance, it's possible for Scholar, but for Summoner they use THM as their sub.

[Moltove]

I am up in the air about this. I like the idea of class specialization, but being someone who loves to play and try out all jobs (except usually main tank jobs) it kind of stinks. Though I wonder if stats will really make that much of a different. I don't recall them being that significant in 1.0.

 

While I forgot the numbers, I think that once you get to Garuda/Darklight dungeons, you wanted to aim for 400 in ACC, STR and PIE as a DRG. While from what I saw, they consolidated stats needed for classes (though still don't know what class uses what), so it will all depend on how many stats an individual class should spec for their main role, materia stat values, and the values "needed" to face end-game content.

 

To clarify, while min/maxing is not everyone's cup of tea, if you are under where your points should be in a given stat (ACC especially in 1.0), you were next to useless. A DRG couldn't hit a giant rock in front of them if the rock demanded 400 ACC, even if the DRG was 350-380.

 

In regular encounters and other Primals, it wasn't as much of a big deal; you could get your AF armor and get a decent weapon and be fine without a single materia affixed to our weapon or anything.

 

I'm curious to see how things change, though! ^.^

[Myxie Tryxle]

as far as doing a 15/15 split between Mind and Intelligence, that's what I meant when I said you could do this to be average (at best), while if you wanted to be optimized in a role you'd have to pick being good at one or the other, there's no way to play an Arcanist and be optimized in both because even if you try to do things to cover the disparity, you'll still be worse than someone who didn't bother and just spec'd for a single Job.

 

As far as using Cleric Stance, it's possible for Scholar, but for Summoner they use THM as their sub.

 

My point was that if a 9 point disparity from race is not significant, a 15 point disparity from flex stats is going to be insignificant as well. At level 20 on the beta on my THM with normal crafted gear and empty materia sockets, 15 points of int would have boosted my magical attack stat which determines spell damage by only around 15%. By level 50 with decent gear and rank 4 materia, 15 points of int will be such a small difference you probably won't even notice it without a DPS meter to analyze the data (which I don't think will be available, anyhow). In my MMO experience, player skill makes up 90% of a player's capability anyhow.

 

As far as cross class skills go, we'll have to see what those are, but every job gets cross class skills from one additional class outside their sub. For example, warrior sub is gladiator, but they get cross class skills from gladiator and pugilist. I wouldn't be surprised if scholar got conjurer and thaumaturge cross class skills, since white mage gets thaumaturge and arcanist cross class skills.

---

Whoops, I missed summoner! Not sure what their cross class skill pool will be. Black mage gets arcanist and archer, so maybe they'll get the same?

[Adelpha]

My point was that if a 9 point disparity from race is not significant, a 15 point disparity from flex stats is going to be insignificant as well.

This is a pretty fair point. Sometimes I forget that the amount of attribute points that you have to play with at level 50 (30 points total?) is pretty small overall. I think that's a small enough amount that skill could easily make up the difference.

[Havoc Snow]

as far as doing a 15/15 split between Mind and Intelligence, that's what I meant when I said you could do this to be average (at best), while if you wanted to be optimized in a role you'd have to pick being good at one or the other, there's no way to play an Arcanist and be optimized in both because even if you try to do things to cover the disparity, you'll still be worse than someone who didn't bother and just spec'd for a single Job.

 

As far as using Cleric Stance, it's possible for Scholar, but for Summoner they use THM as their sub.

 

My point was that if a 9 point disparity from race is not significant, a 15 point disparity from flex stats is going to be insignificant as well.  At level 20 on the beta on my THM with normal crafted gear and empty materia sockets, 15 points of int would have boosted my magical attack stat which determines spell damage by only around 15%.  By level 50 with decent gear and rank 4 materia, 15 points of int will be such a small difference you probably won't even notice it without a DPS meter to analyze the data (which I don't think will be available, anyhow).  In my MMO experience, player skill makes up 90% of a player's capability anyhow.

 

As far as cross class skills go, we'll have to see what those are, but every job gets cross class skills from one additional class outside their sub.  For example, warrior sub is gladiator, but they get cross class skills from gladiator and pugilist.  I wouldn't be surprised if scholar got conjurer and thaumaturge cross class skills, since white mage gets thaumaturge and arcanist cross class skills.

---

Whoops, I missed summoner!  Not sure what their cross class skill pool will be.  Black mage gets arcanist and archer, so maybe they'll get the same?

It matters to progression guilds or people who want to do content on Extreme, or get through Crystal Tower where Yoshida suggested having every point of DPS mattered when trying to clear the different phases. 15 points is the difference between whether I'd pick you or a White Mage fully spec'd into Mind, or even a Scholar that's just the same, if I were trying to do progression runs. This game doesn't really require twitch reflexes like a lot of other games, so while skill will matter, gear and build will play a large part as well.

[Sounsyy]

A lot of good points have been made already, but I wanted to add this one, since it was something I didn't see.

 

When you switch from class to job, you actually alter your base attribute points. Not including your stat allocations. So using Arcanist as an example, when you are Arcanist I am theorizing you will probably have about even MND and INT because Arcanist can both heal and damage. Then when you switch to Scholar, your stats will change to give you a natural boost to Mind. When you switch to Summoner, your stats will change to give you a natural boost to Intelligence. 

 

Based off Yoshi saying that stat reallocation will not be easy to do, I think the best stat would be 15/15 MND/INT. This way you max out your best stat for both classes instead of just one. Now, for those saying that you're losing out on 15 points. You can make up for this with gear, materia, the native stat boost, and also the +INT or +MND that you get from being in a party. 

 

So honestly you've lost nothing. If you're that much of a min/max-er that 15 points behind the curve between two characters with the absolutely BEST gear in game for SMN/SCH, then pump 30 points into whichever job will be your main and gimp the other.

[Havoc Snow]

A lot of good points have been made already, but I wanted to add this one, since it was something I didn't see.

 

When you switch from class to job, you actually alter your base attribute points. Not including your stat allocations. So using Arcanist as an example, when you are Arcanist I am theorizing you will probably have about even MND and INT because Arcanist can both heal and damage. Then when you switch to Scholar, your stats will change to give you a natural boost to Mind. When you switch to Summoner, your stats will change to give you a natural boost to Intelligence. 

 

Based off Yoshi saying that stat reallocation will not be easy to do, I think the best stat would be 15/15 MND/INT. This way you max out your best stat for both classes instead of just one. Now, for those saying that you're losing out on 15 points. You can make up for this with gear, materia, the native stat boost, and also the +INT or +MND that you get from being in a party. 

 

So honestly you've lost nothing. If you're that much of a min/max-er that 15 points behind the curve between two characters with the absolutely BEST gear in game for SMN/SCH, then pump 30 points into whichever job will be your main and gimp the other.

This is some good info to have, I wasn't aware that Jobs altered stats on their own.

[Havoc Snow]

Came across this on reddit and figured I'd post it here since there was a lot of debate about how Arcanists stats would work.

 

Hey all,

 

In version 1.0, stats could be allocated for both the class and for the job. However, in A Realm Reborn, you will now only be able to allocate points for the class itself. As you know, the arcanist branches into two jobs (Summoner and Scholar) and as Yoshida explained in the Letter from the Producer LIVE, it will be up to players to decide how they want to allocate their stats on arcanist. Players can focus on one job or the other; or choose the respective stat to enhance - like if you want to focus on scholar's healing, you can choose MND or if you want to focus on scholar's DPS capabilities, you can choose INT. You can also take a "middle of the road" approach and maintain a good balance.

 

Beyond that, as Yoshida mentioned, we'll also be preparing gear with varying stats (beyond the type that players have seen thus far) that players can utilize to focus on specific stats.

[Naunet]

Assuming the primary stats are intelligence for summoner and mind for scholar, you could do a 15/15 split and not be noticeably disadvantaged.

 

In a min-maxing environment, however, those 15 points can make a difference.

 

This is really, really frustrating, especially considering how easily you can switch between classes. Jobs shouldn't be any different in that regard, but depending on how costly resetting your attribute points will be, this is just... incredibly silly. That and I find the whole mechanic of attribute points utterly uninspired (there's pretty much no actually interesting decision-making in this - you take whatever primary stat your class/job utilizes and put all points in it).

 

Hngh.

---

So honestly you've lost nothing. If you're that much of a min/max-er that 15 points behind the curve between two characters with the absolutely BEST gear in game for SMN/SCH, then pump 30 points into whichever job will be your main and gimp the other.

 

Gear has stat caps, which means there is only so much of a given stat you can add materia for until you have to add something else. Stats like MND, INT, STR and such tend to come very close to if not completely capped on the gear itself, which means materia is going to be used for 1) capping out a base stat if it hasn't already, and then 2) secondary stats such as spell/attack speed and such.

 

So yes, you do lose something by going 15/15. You lose 15 whole points of your primary stat. It doesn't matter if you end up being able to slot 15 points of MND or whatever in materia - in the end, you're still short 15 points from where you would be if you had gone full 30.

[synaesthetic]

I'm going to operate on the assumption that Squeenix did not eat a bowl of brain cancer for breakfast this morning and that Piety is the prime attribute for arcanist (and by extension, scholar and summoner).

[Naunet]

I'm going to operate on the assumption that Squeenix did not eat a bowl of brain cancer for breakfast this morning and that Piety is the prime attribute for arcanist (and by extension, scholar and summoner).

 

This could only be the case if PIE has some as-yet-unknown bonus attached to it. Or I guess if somehow their spell power is attached directly to the size of their mana pool. Which I guess is possible, but that would make scaling really weird.

[Eve Malusion]

I'm going to operate on the assumption that Squeenix did not eat a bowl of brain cancer for breakfast this morning and that Piety is the prime attribute for arcanist (and by extension, scholar and summoner).

I don't really know how the attributes work, but as far as I remember it was implied in live letter that you would want int as a summoner and mind for scholar. I can't source it or double check since it's not uploaded yet, though, so I'm going purely on memory for that. However it was very heavily implied that you would want different attributes for scholar and summoner.

Also, from the datamined info that we aren't really supposed to discuss, it looked like arcanist was purely dps, the only heal they had was for their pet.

[Naunet]

Also, from the datamined info that we aren't really supposed to discuss, it looked like arcanist was purely dps, the only heal they had was for their pet.

 

This is correct. Unless Squee pulls something random out of their asses, ARC and SMN will want INT while SCH will want MND. Base classes don't share stat points with jobs, though, so at least while leveling ACN, you can dump points in INT, and then... I guess you have to pick whenever you get access to your jobs.

 

Really poor design in a game that encourages fairly frequent class switching. I get the feeling it was something they overlooked because the majority of classes right now only have one job.