Does anyone else get kind of annoyed at how Miqo'te are represented in the world?

[YesGood]

That's not flattery, that's called being a stalker.

 

I'd be flattered. Long as they didn't show up on my doorstep. Heard that happened in a guild in WoW.

[Noble_Einherjar]

Why aren't the Elezen or Roegadyn allowed to be sexy? Spread the wealth.

 

 I, sir, take offense! Siobhain is sexy! She's super sexy! She's just... a certain type of sexy.

 

 Isn't it up to us to maybe Roegadyns more sexy? Can't say for Elezen since I don't play one.

 

 Lost River... Let's have both our Roes be caught in Ul'dah and sold off as slaves. I think it'd be pretteh fantastic.

 

 Lost: Oh nuuuu~! No, seriously, hands off or I magic you into the next life.

 

 Sio: HULK SMASH!

 Siobhain and Lost, you two are amazingly very interesting to watch on the forums  and agree that Roegadyns and Elezen's can and are sexy, just depends on the person.

 

As for the Miqo'te's and how they are done. Just remember, how you RP your character is up to you, Lore wise we really don't have much say in it, but that's lore we are just along for the ride and have fun while doings so. You don't need to be a whore or a slave to some person, plenty of them aren't and plenty of them would just as well kill a male for trying haha.

 

Miqo'te's as a race aren't as reserved about this as the other races, and what you got to mostly remember in the times that this word is sort of based on. It was much the same as in our earlier times, and back them "companions" where in many culture's well respected... and some slaves in culture's were as well, if they brought their Master profit that is.

 

In response to the .. whole conversation .. coming from a snippet of my post, I was more talking about NPC Elezen and Roegadyn. Because I do think more than just the Miqo'te are sexy.

[YesGood]

Why aren't the Elezen or Roegadyn allowed to be sexy? Spread the wealth.

 

 I, sir, take offense! Siobhain is sexy! She's super sexy! She's just... a certain type of sexy.

 

 Isn't it up to us to maybe Roegadyns more sexy? Can't say for Elezen since I don't play one.

 

 Lost River... Let's have both our Roes be caught in Ul'dah and sold off as slaves. I think it'd be pretteh fantastic.

 

 Lost: Oh nuuuu~! No, seriously, hands off or I magic you into the next life.

 

 Sio: HULK SMASH!

 Siobhain and Lost, you two are amazingly very interesting to watch on the forums  and agree that Roegadyns and Elezen's can and are sexy, just depends on the person.

 

As for the Miqo'te's and how they are done. Just remember, how you RP your character is up to you, Lore wise we really don't have much say in it, but that's lore we are just along for the ride and have fun while doings so. You don't need to be a whore or a slave to some person, plenty of them aren't and plenty of them would just as well kill a male for trying haha.

 

Miqo'te's as a race aren't as reserved about this as the other races, and what you got to mostly remember in the times that this word is sort of based on. It was much the same as in our earlier times, and back them "companions" where in many culture's well respected... and some slaves in culture's were as well, if they brought their Master profit that is.

 

In response to the .. whole conversation .. coming from a snippet of my post, I was more talking about NPC Elezen and Roegadyn. Because I do think more than just the Miqo'te are sexy.

 

I was joking. I also agree.

[synaesthetic]

The interesting bit here is it's almost always Sunseeker miqo who are portrayed as prostitutes and exotic dancers. The most Keeper miqo are portrayed in NPC form tend to be poachers... and enemies.

 

I mean, it's a game made in Japan and it has a race of humanoids with cat-like features. What did you expect, fair feminist portrayals of female miqo'te? Not to mention our idea of feminism is a human idea, and miqo'te already have shown to have very un-human-like cultural traditions and beliefs. The concept of modesty seems to be really far down on their priority list.

[Norna]

The interesting bit here is it's almost always Sunseeker miqo who are portrayed as prostitutes and exotic dancers. The most Keeper miqo are portrayed in NPC form tend to be poachers... and enemies.

Add the fact that Moon Keepers worship "The Lover" and there might be some interesting lore going on here (my Moon Keeper's family interpret the teachings of Menphina that love isn't a limited commodity, so concepts such as Best Friend and Monogamous Marriage is seen as curiosities, you're either Friends, Acquaintances, Allies or Strangers, and you either are Lovers or not. Same thing with Enemies or Rivals; you either are or aren't, but you are definitely NOT on a pedestal as a One True Rival like how many shounen manga as One True Rivals. Since Moon Keepers keep their family units to themselves, I can see them interpret this very differently from family to family.

 

Also, my Moon Keeper have her preferences and is extremely choosy, since Menphina's teachings do not say that she HAS to take lovers, just that love is love and that's all there is to it. She does try to influence her Sun sisters to take up more lucrative and self-sufficient work that isn't at the whims of men, but she doesn't judge them for taking the careers they have since she entered Ul'dah as a gil-less refuge, after having been tricked into free labor in one of the mines, and was lucky that Momodi picked her up as an errand girl).

 

Come to think of it. Sun Seekers worship "The Warden", and the Nunh's responsibility to his tribe is to protect them. If there is a group of elders in the tribe who calls some of the shots, then their work is to protect the tribe as well. So the important people in Sun Seeking culture are wardens, which would make the others their wards, which I could see why so many females and Tia leave to see how others live, since it can be very frustrating to have to do as another tell them because "it's for your and the tribe's own good". Particularly when they are in their equivalents of 16-25 age range (aka: Rebellious years).

 

Of course, since they've been protected was wards their whole lives, they have limited employment opportunities. Those that were tanners might be able to become leatherworkers, but in a large tribe, I would guess a lot of the work isn't learned by everyone (some hunt, some gather, some cook, some heal and so on), and if they go to a place where their specialty isn't needed, they need to find other ways to support themselves. Since other races have the stereotype of promiscuous catgirls, they might suggest that, and not knowing/being able to see the alternatives due to their sheltered upbringing, the Miqo'te might agree, and the stereotype becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, as new arrivals see other Miqo'te do prostitution and join them (particularly in Ul'dah, where they worship money, and in Limsa Lominsa, where pirates, brigands and other bad influences thrive).

 

In contrast, the solitary Moon Keepers have to learn every trick of every trade in order to remain self-sufficient.

 

Oh dear, this became a bit too long and speculative. TL;DR: I wish that we saw Miqo'te in more walks of life, but there might be (speculative) reasons why a large number of Sun Seekers might find themselves in a situation that often leads to entertainment and prostitution. Also, some Moon Keeping headcanon.

[LiadansWhisper]

The overly sexualized Miqo'te don't bug me as much as the random Miqo'te who use things like "meow" in place of "now" or who purr while talking.

 

I can't quite put my finger on why it bugs me, but it drives me nuts.

[Rinh Hallani]

I'll admit it bothers me a bit but, as mentioned, there are lots of miqo'te women who are quite the opposite. The arcanist quests in particular were brilliant in my opinion. I really loved how a 'weak female' miqo'te came into her own and saved the day, reducing her foe to a blumbering fool. Hah!

[ArmachiA]

Ain't nothing wrong with a Miqote being a courtesan if she's a strong, independent Miqote who don't need no man.

 

In all seriousness the game is super sexual sometimes and as long as it's portrayed as being 100% consensual I have no issue with it.

 

(That room in Sastasha is extremely uncomfortable for that reason.)

[FreelanceWizard]

Wow, this thread really exploded since I last looked at it.

 

To clarify my original post, I personally don't like the sheer volume of miqo'te females being portrayed in a highly sexualized light due to how it muddies the concept of the race as explained in other lore sources -- but that is the lore the game presents, so we have to have our characters react accordingly. We don't get to pick and choose which lore we like and which we don't.

 

That said, my character, based on her upbringing and other life events, happens to very strongly dislike miqo'te characters who she feels are hypersexualized or "degrading" the race. That's an IC opinion that has nothing to do with OOC, and I as a player am acutely aware of the potential IC consequences of this stance, how it's outside the norm, and how much of a judgmental jerk she's being. FWIW, I also have an elezen character who happens to enjoy using his money to have miqo'te women fawn over him and share his bed.

[Clover]

I've seen many kinds of Miqo'tes ingame, so I haven't been under the impression that they tend to be portrayed in a sexual way. One of them was a courtesan, alright, and another one was a Captain (or some sort of high rank) in the Maelstrom GC, and another one was a studious arcanist, and a long etc.

 

I also remember a quest where I had to gather the Costa del Sol dancers, and I swear that I saw girls from other races there (?).

 

I do understand if sex had less taboos in the Miqo'te society, or if their taboos were different than ours. They are a completely different culture, one I don't necessarily understand or share. I think I've said it before, but I can't play my Miqo'te girl as if she was saving her first kiss for the love of her life like a human girl would do, since that's not what she's been taught; in fact, she's been taught to breed out of obligation someday, since romance plays no role in her culture. This doesn't mean that I have to make her breed with anyone, or that I have to play her as a sexually open girl (quite the contrary, she's very innocent!). In the end, everyone will play their Miqo'tes as they see fit *nods*. I just mean that they might not even see being a prostitute as something shocking or immoral.

 

I'm personally not troubled that a very small number of Miqo'tes (out of many) might be portrayed as prostitutes. Even if they were a majority, I still wouldn't be troubled because that's how lore is.

[YesGood]

The interesting bit here is it's almost always Sunseeker miqo who are portrayed as prostitutes and exotic dancers. The most Keeper miqo are portrayed in NPC form tend to be poachers... and enemies.

 

I mean, it's a game made in Japan and it has a race of humanoids with cat-like features. What did you expect, fair feminist portrayals of female miqo'te? Not to mention our idea of feminism is a human idea, and miqo'te already have shown to have very un-human-like cultural traditions and beliefs. The concept of modesty seems to be really far down on their priority list.

 

It might be because many Seekers of the Sun probably come from near Ul'dah, and many Keepers of the Moon come from Gridania.

 

I agree feminism is a human idea-- it comes from centuries of cultures treating women like commodities to be traded and treated however their men please. In many cultures it was the sole purpose of a woman, who was raised to be this way, to please her husband and do whatever he asked. There are, however, plenty of exceptions as well where women have been and still are strong figures. In many of THOSE cases, the women used their femininity to their advantage. They didn't have to be powerful or independent of men; they -used- men the way they'd been used for status or the like.

 

Ancient Rome for example. The Domina had nearly as much freedom as her husband, she ruled her house, she was highly respected, women -ran- brothels, etc. Same in places in China, even other parts of Europe. Vikings had strong women who weren't always at the mercy of their men. Spartan women didn't take any poop from any fellow; supposedly they were trained to defend themselves against marriage proposals (part of which included kidnapping) and often sent 'potential suitors/kidnappers' packing. But these women were also spectacular wives and strong mothers. They followed their cultures and worked within them. Hasn't anyone ever heard the line 'with your shield or upon it?'. That was a frequent female mentality-- they didn't need men to force it on them, their culture groomed them to feel that way. -Slave women- existed in all of those cultures, probably to fulfill the needs of men who were... let's face it... a bit too afraid to deal with their own wives sometimes.

 

While we're talking about Japan.

 

Many wives, widows, daughters, and rebels answered the call of duty by engaging in battle, commonly alongside samurai men. They were members of the bushi (samurai) class in feudal Japan and were trained in the use of weapons to protect their household, family, and honor in times of war. They also represented a divergence from the traditional "housewife" role of the Japanese woman. They are sometimes mistakenly referred to as female samurai, although this is an oversimplification. Onna bugeisha were very important people in ancient Japan. Significant icons such as Empress Jingu, Tomoe Gozen, Nakano Takeko, and Hōjō Masako were all onna bugeisha who came to have a significant impact on Japan. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onna-bugeisha )

 

And then there's Gozen.

 

During the Battle of Awazu on February 21, 1184, Gozen rode into the enemy forces, flung herself on their strongest warrior, unhorsed, pinned, and decapitated him.^[2] In the Tale of Heike, Gozen was described as being "especially beautiful, with white skin, long hair, and charming features. She was also a remarkably strong archer, and as a swords-woman she was a warrior worth a thousand, ready to confront a demon or a god, mounted or on foot. She handled unbroken horses with superb skill; she rode unscathed down perilous descents. Whenever a battle was imminent, Yoshinaka sent her out as his first captain, equipped with strong armor, an oversized sword, and a mighty bow; and she performed more deeds of valor than any of his other warriors."

 

Even though the primary role of women in ancient Japan continued to be the support to their family and their husbands, they acquired a higher status in the household. These laws also allowed Japanese women to control finances, bequeath property, the upkeep of the home, managed servants, and for raising their children with proper, loyal, samurai upbringing. Most importantly, Japanese women were also expected to defend their homes in times of war.

 

It doesn't have to be one or the other. You can be strong -and- be feminine, and not be a man or prostitute-hater.

 

The Western term Dragon Lady came to mean 'strong, deceitful, domineering or mysterious' and it used often in reference to Chinese women before the 1930s. Note, yes, strong is in there and so is domineering, but deceitful and mysterious are too. You know who owned the majority of brothels in ancient history? Women. You know who treated female slaves the worst in the majority of ancient cultures? Also women.

 

You want females like this, then have them. But remember that many of these strong women didn't get disgusted or degrade women that were slaves (of their own culture) or prostitutes. They understood their necessity and used their existence to further empower themselves. This mentality is probably a bit different than most players have because of the time and places in which we live; but a common issue with trying to RP something from another 'era' or in another world is trying -too- hard to relate it to personal (and limited) knowledge of only the RPer's life and upbringing. Most people say you can't use game mechanics like leveling or events or class to determine your character and are dead set against it. At the same time I see many people with that view using game mechanics or what they assume to be game developers' mentalities or their own RL experiences (rather than anthropological or biological knowledge) to validate or invalidate what they consider to be right or wrong in RP.

 

If we're going to go that route, we might as well go 100% and try to look at the potential lore-reasoning that could cause a certain mindset.

 

We complain here and there throughout many threads that if "Everyone does this" then it's no longer special. If everyone who RPs a Seeker or everyone else who views a Seeker that goes the route of slave, exotic dancer, or even prostitute considers them to lack knowledge, maturity, or common sense because of their culture or their upbringing and reflects this by pitying them or being disgusted by them and wanting to be so much unlike them, then that mindset will become the norm and what we see in Ul'dah will become the exception. Those people trying to be special by fighting the stereotype are then, no longer special because they have no one but NPCs to compare themselves to. By bringing up the bad points about Seekers and SE and rabid fan-service with no substantial appreciation of the culture or the race we're unintentionally (or intentionally) going to be manipulating good RPers with a lot of promise and creativity to walk a road they're afraid to trod because of how they might be received by other players.

 

Also, you can probably assume that both Highlander women and Roegadyn women are considered pretty strong and probably very intimidating. Feminine equality, or even superiority, exist in this game already. Lalafell and Elezen are virtually equal to their men. So only Miqo'te -might- in -one- case be considered 'not equal' and even then, it's questionable because anyone can be made a slave, man or women, and likely there are more Miqo'te men who are used to being used and bossed around and degraded than there are women. Just because they're hyper-sexualized in -some- cases doesn't mean they're not the more powerful in terms of gender, of their breed.

[Raeletta]

I thought it was fairly well done, myself.

 

I can see why people might think it's bad, but as others have said: It's clear a lot of Miqo'te don't care about other races social norms for sex / sexuality.

 

Plus you do see plenty of them where they're not sexualised at all, like in the grand companies, the U tribe Y'sholta.

 

Can't forget this lady either, she clearly isn't happy with her predicament: 

 

Some of it's certainly fan service, but the lore fits it quite well. Plus it lets us make Miqo who rebel this system, and have much support in doing so. Perhaps we'll change the way the world thinks, hmm? (Rae hasn't been set for this yet, dunno where she stands on the topic)

 

I found it far weirder that there were very few cat puns, I mean I've only seen one NPC say something along the lines of "get it done right meow"

[K'nahli]

[align=center]Grrr.....[/align]

 

[align=center][/align]

[Jove]

I think this one may be my favourite...

 

[Swift Nightclaw]

 

Something I've been seeing a lot lately has been the 'modifying' of a races' lore to suit peoples' tastes rather than working WITH the lore to create an interesting character. If you don't like the race's lore, don't play it. Don't try to make it something else because you like how catgirls look and you don't like how SE made them.

 

/endrant

 

I lurv you a bit right now.  Well said.

 

I had the same impression as others. They're miqo'te, they aren't human. Fan service or not, their culture can be quite different when it comes to views and feelings regarding sex.  It doesn't make them lesser, it just makes their view different.

[Azelle]

Yes there are many strumpets and maybe a lot of tease from the female side of Miqo'te (is it me or is it more on the seeker side?), but, there are also a TON of normal Miqo'te, like guards to take only that example, pretty serious  My character think the city life corrupts them rofl!

[Nako Vesh]

Here's the thing. This race is not ours. It is SE's. They can do what they want with it. The Miqo'tes are being represented how they SHOULD be represented. It's lore that many of them are like that. Seekers are whores, pirates, bar-wenches, fishers, dancers, adventurers, yellow-jackets, Maelstrom recruits, and sisters in the desert. That is what they are.

 

Something I've been seeing a lot lately has been the 'modifying' of a races' lore to suit peoples' tastes rather than working WITH the lore to create an interesting character. If you don't like the race's lore, don't play it. Don't try to make it something else because you like how catgirls look and you don't like how SE made them.

 

/endrant

While I agree with you for the most part, dismissing a critical discussion doesn't help anything. You can like something while being critical of it, and from where I'm standing that's all I see this thread doing.

 

But again, I do agree with your main point. I saw it in WoW with Blood Elves. Playing the mana addiction part was too "icky" for some so their Blood Elves were magically blue eyed and untainted. Then again, it's individual choice as to how you enjoy your RP.

 

That all said, considering some of the Miqo'te real life influences, the jokey portrayal of their sexuality comes across as a bit... ugh...

[Gideon Aryeh]

What i mean is how the NPC's are represented. Like 90% of Miqo'te women are either prostitutes,slaves,erotic dancers or just all three. There is even a fate where you escort a Miqo'te prostitute to her customer who then shows his pleasure with a rude gesture. Does anyone else find it a little...I dunno annoying?

 

Here's the thing. This race is not ours. It is SE's. They can do what they want with it. The Miqo'tes are being represented how they SHOULD be represented. It's lore that many of them are like that. Seekers are whores, pirates, bar-wenches, fishers, dancers, adventurers, yellow-jackets, Maelstrom recruits, and sisters in the desert. That is what they are.

 

Something I've been seeing a lot lately has been the 'modifying' of a races' lore to suit peoples' tastes rather than working WITH the lore to create an interesting character. [[/u]u] Don't try to make it something else because you like how catgirls look and you don't like how SE made them.

 

/endrant

 

I have to agree with this statement of yours Aysun. Seeing this in many previous mmos *sighs*....yeah I'll shut up now.

[Dravus]

As far as I'm concerned some things are simply present in the game purely as a bit of comic relief rather than something to be taken seriously. In some cases additions to any given MMO aren't properly screened for consistency. Issues tend to arise when role-players then decide to focus on obscure scraps of lore even when it's contrary to what is seen elsewhere.

 

...and it's perfectly possible to like some aspects of a playable race whilst loathing others. I wouldn't stop going to a restaurant I enjoy just because they add something I dislike to the menu. As far as the Miqo'te are concerned, there's a ridiculous amount of focus being put on sex - most of it bearing the same awkward justifications. It'd be nice if the same amount of effort was put into the other aspects of Miqo'te lore, though I won't get my hopes up too much. Just because a few Miqo'te are shown to be 'loose' it doesn't mean that all of them are. From what I've seen in role-play it's ridiculously disproportionate as to how many Miqo'te are overly sexualised. When the exception becomes the norm there's a pretty major problem as far as I'm concerned.

[N'taeyl]

 

Here's the thing. This race is not ours. It is SE's. They can do what they want with it. The Miqo'tes are being represented how they SHOULD be represented. It's lore that many of them are like that. Seekers are whores, pirates, bar-wenches, fishers, dancers, adventurers, yellow-jackets, Maelstrom recruits, and sisters in the desert. That is what they are.

 

Something I've been seeing a lot lately has been the 'modifying' of a races' lore to suit peoples' tastes rather than working WITH the lore to create an interesting character. If you don't like the race's lore, don't play it. Don't try to make it something else because you like how catgirls look and you don't like how SE made them.

 

/endrant

 

While I do agree with this, isn't it their job to cater to what we want?  They're offering up their work to entice us into buying it.  I really don't think someone is going to make an oozing flatulent octopus race and demand we like it or play a different game and put that on the market.  Not that extreme of course, but the industry is about catering to the most people right?  So they put in a buncha sexy cat girls, especially since the main target is Japan.  They also probably knew most Mithra in XI were dudes.

 

I've always been one to complain about how sexualized, or girly, my characters are represented. (I refuse to use the sit on my Miqote <_<) I also know that I'm a small percentage of most female players so I deal with it for the most part.  The sexuality portrayed by the NPCs in question I think is more fan service than actual logic and lore.  There may be, or is, lore explaining why Sun Miqote are more promiscuous, and it seems the entire race is by nature anyway, but it's not worth discussing logically.  All we can do is complain about how sex sells.

[allgivenover]

The sexuality portrayed by the NPCs in question I think is more fan service than actual logic and lore.

 

We don't get to decide what's lore and what isn't. We learn about the game lore by what's presented in game and official lore posts, we don't get to cherry pick it because we don't like certain aspects.

 

Perhaps Sunseekers were written that way to cater to fan-service, but even if that were true that doesn't make that lore invalid. This doesn't mean you have to RP your Sunseeker as promiscuous, and in fact many might really like the idea of monogamy and reduced sexual availability as they would have exclusive access to a male.

 

If it bothers you so much that a good number of Seekers are canonically promiscuous or have no problem with monetizing their sexuality, consider that it doesn't reflect badly on YOU personally. You are not your character in real life and you are not a Miqo'te in real life, canon promiscuity presented by other Miqo'te doesn't reflect poorly on you out of character in the same way that my main Rakka'li acting like a selfish jerk doesn't actually reflect poorly on me out of character. If it still bothers you despite considering that, then consider re-rolling to Keeper, as I haven't found a single promiscuous Keeper female in game.

[Chisae]

Saikoray, who is this "we" you speak of? I'm not being sarcastic here... well not really anyway. There's a buttload of "we" in Japan that SE is catering too with this sorta thing... whatever that is. Remember, everyone playing this game outside of Japan are the secondary "we's", our opinions and what we want are of less concern than those in Japan.That's not intended to sound bitter or snarky, I'm just pointing it out.

 

Also Allgivenover makes a bunch of good points. I would also like to point out that Lost Springs in the Sagoli Desert has a whole village of Sunkeepers that aren't being portrayed as promiscuous (I think I saw one that looked like she was a hooker but thats it), in fact all of them were armoured and armed and several of them had the spoils of their hunt laying at their feet.

 

That doesn't mean that all Sunkeepers are badass epic hunters either.

[K'nahli]

Having said that, one miqo'te asked her sibling when her next coupling was and another complained about the nuhn not fulfilling his duty. Yes, yes... I'm sure being limited to one male who obviously had a significant amount of females to get around to(specific only to Lost Springs) would leave one sexually frustrated in reality, but the fact it made it to the dialogue bubbles strikes me as something that was given emphasis to further reinforce the idea of all or at least one of the following:

 

Enhanced promiscuity among Seekers / Fan Service / Comic Relief

 

 

 

Off topic:

Having noticed that a lot of NPCs refer to miqote as "kittens", what is everyone's take on that? Personally I view it as a playful term that could be relatable to males calling females "sweetheart" or anything along those lines but does anyone see it as perhaps a simple phrase related to their characteristics, perhaps like... I dunno, calling a male "boy"?

 

I ask because I wanted the opinion of others just in case my miqo'te should be called it in RP. In the case of it being used perhaps sarcastically by someone who wasn't being friendly or just a complete jerk then I'd imagine my miqo'te would respond in annoyance to that, same way a girl might say something along the lines of:

"Don't call me sweetheart/honey"

 

Albeit, if people think its just almost like addressing one by their race then she would overlook it.

[Chisae]

I think we need to stop trying to apply our morals and values onto a fictional race. Line between fantasy and reality and all that. And just because a race has a harem-type culture per tribe doesn't mean they are necessarily promiscuous otherwise.

 

I see just as many prostitutes of the other races as I do Miqote, not that I go around looking for the red-light districts in the villages and cities (queue all the "

suuuuuure" comments). lol

[SessionZero]

Not going to read through 7 pages' worth of replies, so hopefully no one has said this yet, but there's always ONE race in every MMO like that. WoW: Draenei. GW2: Sylvari. SWTOR: Twi'lek. It's unavoidable.

 

Edit: Also this game is Japanese, so, you know, sexy catgirls.