HM fight griefing on Balmung!

[K'nahli]

I see ^^  Admittedly I wouldn't share the same level of desire to help people with runs on this game as I would have on M:H/Vindictus, possibly because of how much more massive this one is in population, but I can't get my head around 'helping' someone who I assume is having trouble doing a dungeon run and then stretching out an open palm before them afterwards and expecting them to pay you for it.

[Rinh Hallani]

I guess I am the only one who also is shocked to see runs being sold but okay @-@

 

No, I'm surprised by this as well. I never saw it in WoW, but I was in raiding guilds and we all just did it ourselves so, guess I was a bit sheltered in that respect. I'm not sure how I feel about the concept of selling runs itself but certainly purposefully wiping so you can sell a successful run afterwards is pretty dodgy.

[Asyria]

Report the jerk, tell everyone who's witnessed this to report him too... if Squeenix decides it's bad enough form or actual griefing they will do something. If they decide not to do anything, you'll only have lost a moment of your time.

 

Might also be a good idea to take names.

So people know never to party with the above-mentioned jerk.

[raindrops]

While I personally am not sure how I feel about buying/selling HM runs - I don't think I'd ever want to be carried through anything, but I've not reached the HM primal fights yet so I can't pretend to be an expert wither way - it's not against any rules. I am concerned that the audience for being carried, at least so early on in the game, does probably overlap with the audience for buying gil (the 'I want this right now' types) and so that this will probably encourage people who might have bought gil anyway to go ahead with it, but that's not actually any wrongdoing on the part of the guilds doing this.

 

(Though it does make it somewhat dangerous to do - Square are currently investigating a lot of players who've crossed a certain gil threshold too quickly as part of trying to track down gil sellers and buyers. No doubt most of them - people who make their gil through market trades that are logged and easy to track - will be found innocent and let go. But if, as is probably how HM runs work, you've received a lot of empty gil trades for a large amount each time? That starts to look very suspect, especially if those trades are from known gil buyers. It's not the fault of the people selling HM runs, but it does put them in a very, very risky situation.)

 

The selling isn't the big problem here as far as actual ingame things go, it's the sabotage. And for the most part, it looks like the accusations of sabotage are untrue, at least toward these particular players (I don't doubt that there are some incredible arses who enjoy ruining other people's fun). They're based entirely on what appears to be a joke (a dreadfully unfunny joke made in poor taste, but a joke nonetheless) made by one of the members about doing this to drive up demand for paid runs. In all of the fuss surrounding this mess - and there has been an awful lot of fuss - I've not seen one person come forward to mention any member of this FC sabotaging their run.

 

The other big problem, and the reason this got so out of hand, is the handling of it on Reddit. The mod in question deleted the thread in which people started discussing what was going on and in doing so essentially kicked a hornet's nest. What could have been discussion turned into people furious that they were being censored/information was being kept from them and desperate to find out 'the truth'. Since it's come out that the mod was also letting their FC see deleted posts from the Reddit (largely regarding exploits), it's safe to say they have been abusing their power anyway and should probably be un-modded. But really that has little to do with FFXIV proper.

 

(Unrelated: I'm not sure why people here are being so hostile toward the FFXIV reddit - I have my problems with Reddit as a whole but for the most part the FFXIV one has been nothing but civil toward us. Hell, they've even been getting excited about our events and turning up and behaving! That's more than we get from the general FFXIV community.)

[Exantra]

I've never seen a problem if a group of players decided to put their skills to use and offer players the chance to be carried through content they might have otherwise struggled with. Whether it's an issue of time, finding a good group, or simply traveling down the path of least resistance, there are always going to be players who put reward before content, so the practice of carrying through such seems like a practical idea to make a bit of money out of those who want instant success. You could argue that it might present other, less savoury situations (the players who want to rush through content buying the gil from RMTers), but I don't feel it's a direct cause of the group itself. Unfortunately we cannot prevent these types of players who want everything now from playing, and I'm often hard pressed to convince them otherwise, not that I like to force my own opinions on how one should play the game.

 

On the issue on purposefully ruining runs in an attempt to coerce them into buying successful runs instead, well I don't need to go into lengthy detail as to why that's such a pathetic routine. The fact that there's supposedly someone who holds the position of authority on an online forum included in that scheme just makes it all the more laughable.

[Nako Vesh]

I guess I am the only one who also is shocked to see runs being sold but okay @-@

 

You're not the only one! Well, I wouldn't say I'm shocked, but it's something I'm definitely against. It serves to cheapen the content in question and is partly why I'm not particularly keen on indulging in high end raiding any longer. I used to devote to it back in WoW, though the rise in the amount of players who would throw money around to get the same gear, titles and mounts that had once been largely exclusive to players who had earned them became pretty ridiculous.

 

Unfortunately, this has been going on behind the scenes in the progression quarter of MMOs for a long, long time. It's usually not so dramatic as to sabotage encounters, but spot trading has always been a thing. People get weirdly desperate when it comes to pixel loot.

[Naunet]

I don't really see anything wrong with selling runs as long as everything is on the up-and-up (clear rules laid down, everyone is treated respectfully, etc). It's just something to do to raise money for a guild, and it can help get people access to things who might otherwise never get it. Selling achievement, mount, or boss clears was a common thing in my time in WoW, and I never batted an eye. Things become not-okay when someone decides to sabotage other groups to stir up demand for their for-sale runs.

[Havoc Snow]

but I can't get my head around 'helping' someone who I assume is having trouble doing a dungeon run and then stretching out an open palm before them afterwards and expecting them to pay you for it.

This isn't really accurate to what is happening, not with the legit people anyways. The people sabotaging may be doing this kind of thing, but the ones who are just offering to run people through for money are basically like... mercenaries. You contact them yourself, payment is discussed, a contract is formed, they provide you a service, you pay them for said service. In this case said service is killing a Primal. Eventually you'll probably see people selling Coil Turns as well.

 

Most players aren't taking advantage of other players, they are just being capitalists and taking advantage of the situation, it's completely up to the players in most cases if they want to pay someone for the run, and in a lot of cases it has nothing to do with the skill (or lack of) for players, sadly Titan can be an incredibly difficult fight just because of lag.

[Dravus]

TRTkCHE1sS4

 

 

I'll stand by my earlier point and state that it simply serves to cheapen the experience. There's an element of prestige and awe surrounding the completion of high end content. Back in WoW I'd see people walking around in distinct gear obtained through raids and dungeons. My first instinct wasn't to throw money at them in order to get it for myself, it was to strive to hone my skills so that someday I could walk around in the same gear with all the perks associated with it. The journey mattered just as much as the destination.

 

Yet a troubling amount of players don't care for the challenge or experience. They want all the perks with none of the drawbacks. They're usually very entitled, getting rich off of the backs of their peers - usually through employing questionable tactics on the auction house, buying in-game currency or just spending a huge amount of time mindlessly grinding in order to earn money...which is time they could have spent practicing to tackle the content themselves.

 

At this point people will no doubt pull out the counter of 'itz ther money!!!1 dey can do wat dey want lol ' to which I'll happily reply that it's true - though it certainly doesn't excuse them from criticism, nor does it suddenly mean that the pool of potential players for high end content isn't growing smaller as a result of more people relying upon paying their way to victory.

[K'dath]

It's people paying people to play the game they pay for to play for them.

 

The logic of it is baffling, isn't it?

[Dravus]

Edit: Oops, I read the above post wrong! Serves me right for posting when in a rush.

[IncubusManatee]

 

 

 

 

 

I think mar's is good this time of year.

[Jomoru]

 

I'll stand by my earlier point and state that it simply serves to cheapen the experience. There's an element of prestige and awe surrounding the completion of high end content. Back in WoW I'd see people walking around in distinct gear obtained through raids and dungeons. My first instinct wasn't to throw money at them in order to get it for myself, it was to strive to hone my skills so that someday I could walk around in the same gear with all the perks associated with it. The journey mattered just as much as the destination.

 

Yet a troubling amount of players don't care for the challenge or experience. They want all the perks with none of the drawbacks. They're usually very entitled, getting rich off of the backs of their peers - usually through employing questionable tactics on the auction house, buying in-game currency or just spending a huge amount of time mindlessly grinding in order to earn money...which is time they could have spent practicing to tackle the content themselves.

 

At this point people will no doubt pull out the counter of 'itz ther money!!!1 dey can do wat dey want lol ' to which I'll happily reply that it's true - though it certainly doesn't excuse them from criticism, nor does it suddenly mean that the pool of potential players for high end content isn't growing smaller as a result of more people relying upon paying their way to victory.

 

 

I have a different argument, those people who's hard work you admired to get those items? Time they took getting that was time they weren't making Gil or gold or whatever.  Now it costs them a pretty penny to be the best, gear addons, consumables etc stuff they can't quite catch up on. So they sell the service they've gotten good at.

[raindrops]

At this point people will no doubt pull out the counter of 'itz ther money!!!1 dey can do wat dey want lol ' to which I'll happily reply that it's true - though it certainly doesn't excuse them from criticism, nor does it suddenly mean that the pool of potential players for high end content isn't growing smaller as a result of more people relying upon paying their way to victory.

 

I'd argue that they're not making the pool of players any smaller - the only people who are paying to be carried are likely people who wouldn't be doing this themselves anyway. It might be diluting the pool, adding a lot of people who don't know how to handle endgame content, but as far as I'm aware Coil can't be duty finder'd for (I think, anyway?) so if you don't want a player who was carried through Titan in your group then you can identify players who can't keep up with you and not group with them again fairly easily.

 

Honestly I'd argue that if anything the ability to sell runs and make money off them, at a point when it's quite difficult to make money ingame without playing the auction houses of having a craft at 50, may well serve to convince more people to try and master that content so that they can sell runs. And maybe having their awesome relic weapon will be motivation for people who were carried to learn how to use it.

 

For Titan specifically there's also the issue that due to current issues that fight is literally near-impossible, regardless of skill, on some ISPs and in some areas. My ISP right now is an enormous arse and isn't particularly fond of allowing me to get out of AOEs because it thinks FFXIV is a P2P program, no matter how quick I am. I really don't want to be carried through, but this means my plan for Titan right now is that I'll have to memorize the entire thing and do it from memory. Kind of a pain.

[Darien Cadell]

To me, selling runs isn't something I have a problem with per se, provided the guild doing so is respectable, insofar as that can be defined at all. Usually for me that means no advertising at all and just offering the service to people who ask for it because they've developed a reputation for skill.

 

That being said, buying or selling runs is not something I would ever choose to do myself. I see it like an opposing political view. Sure, whatever, I guess it works for some people if they want to play the game like that. But I certainly agree that for me, it cheapens the experience and reduces content, which is in effect the game itself, to gil for cutscenes and clothing, which just isn't my definition of fun. I won't frown at you for doing it, but don't expect me to cheer, either. You do your thing, I'll do mine.

 

Doing anything to purposely sabotage a a dungeon run, though, whatever the reason, is pretty sad and despicable. Being a bad player is one thing. Ruining other people's game is not cool on any level.

[CrimsonMars]

I failed to understand why people would waste their money on runs just so they can get carried.

[LiadansWhisper]

I failed to understand why people would waste their money on runs just so they can get carried.

 

It's big business in WoW.  Happens very frequently.  People want the titles, the achievements, gear, mounts, etc, but they don't have a group that can get that done, or any hope of getting it done in the foreseeable future.

[Havoc Snow]

I failed to understand why people would waste their money on runs just so they can get carried.

 

It's big business in WoW.  Happens very frequently.  People want the titles, the achievements, gear, mounts, etc, but they don't have a group that can get that done, or any hope of getting it done in the foreseeable future.

This pretty much. If you don't have a full group, or any group at all, then people pay to get runs through stuff with another group. Not everyone gets carried, you could be fully geared and a skilled player and just not capable of finding a good group to run with, so you pay for a group that promises victory just so you can experience it. Besides Titan is just a roadblock, real content starts in Coil.

[LiadansWhisper]

I failed to understand why people would waste their money on runs just so they can get carried.

 

It's big business in WoW.  Happens very frequently.  People want the titles, the achievements, gear, mounts, etc, but they don't have a group that can get that done, or any hope of getting it done in the foreseeable future.

This pretty much. If you don't have a full group, or any group at all, then people pay to get runs through stuff with another group. Not everyone gets carried, you could be fully geared and a skilled player and just not capable of finding a good group to run with, so you pay for a group that promises victory just so you can experience it. Besides Titan is just a roadblock, real content starts in Coil.

 

At least in WoW, I have actually heard of situations where a buyer ended up impressing the guild that carried them through the content to the extent that the guild in question offered them a trial.