The effects of Tempering

[Sounsyy]

 

Archons are to Hydaelyn as Ascians are to Zodiark.

 

Bahamut and the other primals being summoned are just a means to an end for the Ascians. Every time a Primal is summoned a large amount of Hydaelyn's Aether is lost and some of it slips through the Void. As long as the Primals keep getting summoned eventually enough aether will have slipped through to summon the Dark Crystal Zodiark and cover the world in darkness.

 

 

[KitKat]

 

There's also the possibility Ascian souls are, just like Echo users, claimed by another different entity that functions in the same way Hydaelyn does. 

 

 

I am pretty sure the storyline points out that they serve an opposing force to Hydaelyn. The dark where Hydaelyn is the light.

[FreelanceWizard]

Bahamut's tempering is addressed obliquely in the Praetorium, where...

 

 

 

...Gaius talks to Cid about his father, and comments about how the Meteor project consumed him. He specifically mentions that Cid's father originally didn't want to proceed and spoke to Gaius about that, but "by the time he realized his error, it was too late. Meteor already had him in its thrall." (Praetorium Cutscene 2) Between that and the Nael conversation (and battle, where he uses Megaflare -- quite possibly a Primal granted power), I would argue that Bahamut definitely can temper.

 

 

 

As for the Ascians, there's a bit of that at the end of the MSQ, too.

 

 

 

First, there's Lahabrea's commentary at the end of Praetorium that there's a dangerous imbalance that only summoning his god can fix and that Hydaelyn is the aberration. After the credits roll, Lahabrea and many Ascians are scheming. They specifically call out to their god, Zodiark. Additionally, you see an Echo vision of a massive dark crystal. When you take all of that together along with the "When there is light, there is always darkness" text right after the credits, I'm very much of the opinion that the Ascians are claimed warriors of Zodiark, the dark crystal -- the mirror opposite to the claimed warriors of Hydaelyn, the crystal of light. Since one seems to only be able to be claimed by one power, I would assume they too can't be tempered.

 

Also, in the MSQ, Lahabrea mentions that their objective is to sow mass chaos to open the way for their god. Summoning Bahamut is one way; unleashing the dark magic Ultima on the world through the charged Eye of Sabik in Ultima Weapon is another. They've got a lot of irons in the fire, it seems.

 

 

[Boo the Hamster]

 

-Mentally: How strong is the devotion of a tempered, does it vary between primal?

 

Fanatical.  There is no variation between any of the primals.  Once someone is tempered, every action, and every waking moment is for their primal.  Mental degree with how much they rant and rave varies of course, as seen with the Brotherhood of Ash questline.  On both ends of the spectrum

 

-Magically: Every tempered tribe with a primal seems to gain strength from that primal's element in a way non-tempered tribes don't. For example, unlike all other sylphs and lizardmen, the brotherhood of ash and little solace do not seem to have lightining/fire control. Is that elemental proficiency a boon of the primal? Or is it just a coincidence.

They do gain some measure of power from the Primal via magic.  This is stated rather blatantly during the various dailies of the Brotherhood of Ash with woes of "Undeserved power" being used against them and that the Brotherhood are shamed that the tempered can use this "borrowed power" to such heights.  This power is also amplified by various sources, such as the altars in Zanr'ak and Zahar'ak.  In theory, this power may also be trained for further and greater use.

 

-Communication: Tempered are often spoken of as hearing the will of the one that tempered them, can primals and tempered communicate through some special means?

It's written exactly as it is on the tin.  The Primals do speak and whisper to them in their moments of life, and are constantly in the mind of the tempered.  It's quite clear that certain tempered are given various tasks, such as the infiltrators that sneak into towns and lure others to gain followers, priests who perform rites to strengthen the bonds of followers with their primal, and militia who defend the homeland.  Different whispers and voices are heard depending on the task given to them.  It's assumed that the tasks given to the followers are given through word of mouth from the devout, whether that be a high priest, or directly from the primal itself.  The primals seem to choose this on their own, as seen with the White Raven and the Beast tribe questline.

Realized I derped and put the responses in the quote box.  My answers are italicized.

 

Though it may appear that some tempered are more 'sane', none of them truly are.  They will fight, breathe, eat, and die for their primal.  Defeat in any form is not only a shame, but impossible to comprehend.  They're all equally devoted, from the newly converted to the one that brought the primal onto their race in the first place.

 

As for Odin being able to temper, Oroban, he does not temper.  In the fate battle with him, he blatantly states that he has no need for servants.  He possibly could, but his thirst for vengeance and battle leaves no room for tempered.

 

Also, Aysun, you do not -need- the echo to fight primals.  There are various tools that a band of adventurers used (they're currently retired in Costa Del Sol, or a Nunh for the U Tribe, or other places) that are clearly not tempered, and was used to nullify the tempering from Leviathan/Titan.  It's unknown whether these tools are lost, as the lore didn't cover it.  I assume none are being created since in the legacy version of the MSQ, there has been a large amount of Echo users as of late.

[ArmachiA]

Tempering basically kills the dominate personality and replaces it with one that is more suited to the Primals needs. Be warned, the new personality may act sane, but it is indeed a ZEALOT LIKE DEVOTION - one that is living only for the Primal. Tempering is something a Primal does for no other reason than to have a servant of their will - it destroys the persons core personality and rewrites them. It makes them dangerous and usually if anyone finds out a person is tempered the first thing they'll do is tell someone who have them killed. It's too dangerous to keep them alive since there are no known ways to reverse the process.

 

We were going to do a Tempering storyline in the NB but we couldn't find a good enough work around for that last bit (It being irreversible) so instead we found a work around to resist tempering without having the Echo.

[111]

Thanks for all the feedback so far everyone. It's a lot of good info. Based on what people have said I've decided to proceed fully with the mental effects of tempering. Since my character was already incredibly devoted to the being in question, it won't cause much immediate and direct change in her actions. It is more changing why she makes those actions, before it was out of love and affection, now it is because she is compelled to do so. In my own way I'm trying to make it as impactful as possible, despite the fact that the being who did the tempering is about as good aligned and compassionate as one can get.

 

As for reversing it... I'm not sure. It quite possible won't get reversed. However Natalie wasn't tempered by a "real" primal, and instead more of a garleans/ascian science experiment. If we do decide to reverse the tempering through RP, I don't think that contradicts anyone's lore, since this is a rather special case.

[Therese]

Leviathan was first summoned by the Sahagin in 1562 of the Sixth Astral Era. Leviathan was then summarily defeated by The Company of Heroes around the same time that they defeated Titan. The Sahagin have been hostile towards Lominsa ever since. Prior to 1562 though, a 1.0 NPC named Sisipu claims that the Sahagin were a harmless beast race who's worst crimes against Lominsans were cutting fishing nets. 

 

However, there's currently no lore to support that Leviathan was summoned more than that one time.

 

Right right, now that you mention this I definitely remember that being stated. It has honestly been a long time.

 

Well, the only other mention of Leviathan was that the previous (Sixth) Umbral Era was called "The Sixth Umbral Era of Water." There was some people that have suggested this meant the entire world was covered by a great flood and Leviathan may have been the culprit. Though at this point that is also mostly speculation.

 

As for reversing it... I'm not sure. It quite possible won't get reversed. However Natalie wasn't tempered by a "real" primal, and instead more of a garleans/ascian science experiment. If we do decide to reverse the tempering through RP, I don't think that contradicts anyone's lore, since this is a rather special case.

 

Honestly I would argue that undoing a tempering process for another mage would be profoundly more easier than undoing the bond of a primal (since that is what it sounds like this is where it's going). As far as another mortal is concerned their ability to effect and influence the aether will never be as profound as a primal, which appear to be beings of the aether made physical manifest.

 

I suppose you can think of it in terms of water. You have some individuals that can affect the flow of water in a very minimal way (such as dipping your hand and splashing somebody), then you have others that can affect the flow in a bigger way, (such as cupping a whole handful and throwing it at somebody). Now just as each person is endowed with their own natural body, they only have so much of that water (energy) within themselves. The transcience of life means that eventually the body will die and that energy will be returned. This is different than the primals themselves, who ARE the water. And in the above analogy with splashing and the throwing, their flow of water would be opening up a fire hose and dousing them utterly. As they are made of the stuff, they can do so without fundamentally giving away too much of themselves.

 

Which now brings me to an interesting question. Since tempering is a fundamental change to the aether of a person's being, how would a mage temper another individual? --In theory-- (and assuming how I am conceptualizing tempering in the above analogy as really how this whole process works) this would mean that they are giving up a part of their aether into another person to make that person "of" them. While this could also work --in theory-- it also means that the person fundamentally gave a part of their own aether (aka. their own life stream) into another person. Were a mage to do this too much and without any means of restoring their own natural aether, they would essentially hollow out their own body and make themselves a lifeless husk.

[ArmachiA]

Thanks for all the feedback so far everyone. It's a lot of good info. Based on what people have said I've decided to proceed fully with the mental effects of tempering. Since my character was already incredibly devoted to the being in question, it won't cause much immediate and direct change in her actions. It is more changing why she makes those actions, before it was out of love and affection, now it is because she is compelled to do so. In my own way I'm trying to make it as impactful as possible, despite the fact that the being who did the tempering is about as good aligned and compassionate as one can get.

 

As for reversing it... I'm not sure. It quite possible won't get reversed. However Natalie wasn't tempered by a "real" primal, and instead more of a garleans/ascian science experiment. If we do decide to reverse the tempering through RP, I don't think that contradicts anyone's lore, since this is a rather special case.

 

Not sure she was as devoted as tempering would her. Natalie have a boyfriend? Now she doesn't, she only cares about her Primal. Natalie have friends? Now she doesn't, she only cares about her Primal. Like her job? Now she doesn't, only likes her primal. Tempering makes you completely unable to care about anything else. It's that level of devotion.

[111]

Thanks for all the feedback so far everyone. It's a lot of good info. Based on what people have said I've decided to proceed fully with the mental effects of tempering. Since my character was already incredibly devoted to the being in question, it won't cause much immediate and direct change in her actions. It is more changing why she makes those actions, before it was out of love and affection, now it is because she is compelled to do so. In my own way I'm trying to make it as impactful as possible, despite the fact that the being who did the tempering is about as good aligned and compassionate as one can get.

 

As for reversing it... I'm not sure. It quite possible won't get reversed. However Natalie wasn't tempered by a "real" primal, and instead more of a garleans/ascian science experiment. If we do decide to reverse the tempering through RP, I don't think that contradicts anyone's lore, since this is a rather special case.

 

Not sure she was as devoted as tempering would her. Natalie have a boyfriend? Now she doesn't, she only cares about her Primal. Natalie have friends? Now she doesn't, she only cares about her Primal. Like her job? Now she doesn't, only likes her primal. Tempering makes you completely unable to care about anything else. It's that level of devotion.

 

But what if the primal also care about all those things? I'm trying to balance the complete devotion with the fact that the primal want's my char to do all those things.

 

The being in question, who is tangentially related to primals, but not exactly one, is as devoted to my char, as my char was to her. What happens when the primal's will is for you to be independent and happy?

[Syl Souther]

Thanks for all the feedback so far everyone. It's a lot of good info. Based on what people have said I've decided to proceed fully with the mental effects of tempering. Since my character was already incredibly devoted to the being in question, it won't cause much immediate and direct change in her actions. It is more changing why she makes those actions, before it was out of love and affection, now it is because she is compelled to do so. In my own way I'm trying to make it as impactful as possible, despite the fact that the being who did the tempering is about as good aligned and compassionate as one can get.

 

As for reversing it... I'm not sure. It quite possible won't get reversed. However Natalie wasn't tempered by a "real" primal, and instead more of a garleans/ascian science experiment. If we do decide to reverse the tempering through RP, I don't think that contradicts anyone's lore, since this is a rather special case.

 

Not sure she was as devoted as tempering would her. Natalie have a boyfriend? Now she doesn't, she only cares about her Primal. Natalie have friends? Now she doesn't, she only cares about her Primal. Like her job? Now she doesn't, only likes her primal. Tempering makes you completely unable to care about anything else. It's that level of devotion.

 

But what if the primal also care about all those things? I'm trying to balance the complete devotion with the fact that the primal want's my char to do all those things.

 

The being in question, who is tangentially related to primals, but not exactly one, is as devoted to my char, as my char was to her. What happens when the primal's will is for you to be independent and happy?

 

If that's the case... what's the point in being tempered at all? It seems like nothing's changed.

[FreelanceWizard]

The being in question, who is tangentially related to primals, but not exactly one, is as devoted to my char, as my char was to her. What happens when the primal's will is for you to be independent and happy?

 

If you're like the Tempered NPCs we see, you'll twist that underlying principle into service of the Primal. (If you're familiar with Vampire: the Masquerade, Tempering is similar in some ways to Blood Bond; IRL, it's closest to being a member of a niche, destructive religious cult, I suppose.) So, you'll refuse direction from anyone and actively seek to harm those who tell you what to do -- that's independence. You'll try to get all your friends Tempered so they can see the truth that you do -- that's happiness. Anything that impacts your happiness is a threat to be destroyed.

 

The Tempered, at least as the game presents them through NPCs, are zealots. They may be sane, calculating, mustache-twirling, or bleed psychos, but they're all absolutely devoted, above all else, to the service of their Primal and the principle it represents. That tends to come out in twisted ways (constant war in the case of the Amalj'aa, kidnapping their kin in the case of the Sylphs, etc.).

[111]

If that's the case... what's the point in being tempered at all? It seems like nothing's changed.

 

Well it's more the reason *why* she is doing things. It's one thing for a person who be devoted to someone, it's another to not have a choice.

 

And there isn't a *point*, it happened, and is turning out to be a pretty interesting thing for my IC friends to deal with. I'm not sure there is ever a point to RP, except to create interesting stories and have fun.

[Syl Souther]

If that's the case... what's the point in being tempered at all? It seems like nothing's changed.

 

Well it's more the reason *why* she is doing things. It's one thing for a person who be devoted to someone, it's another to not have a choice.

 

And there isn't a *point*, it happened, and is turning out to be a pretty interesting thing for my IC friends to deal with. I'm not sure there is ever a point to RP, except to create interesting stories and have fun.

 

It just doesn't seem all that interesting. This is BY FAR a personal choice. If your friends are having fun with it, then by all means. I'm just not getting it. I think of tempering as a major twist in a storyline. The only reason I'd consider it for a character is for that dramatic twist. If a tempering occurs and there's no real change in how my character acts or feels, then it seems pointless.

 

But it's your story. I don't need to get it.

[Dravus]

Being Tempered is meant to be a pretty big deal. It's something that the people of Eorzea fear, perhaps even more than death itself. There's not much room for being anything else but a rabid and unquestioning zealot that serves the Primal that Tempered them in the first place.

 

Which is precisely why most role-players have no business exploring the concept - it's effectively a 'bad end' to a character's story. There's no return and the moment people begin twisting details to make it convenient it stops being a case of being Tempered and ends up going down a rather slippery slope instead.

 

It seems like you could gain the exact same effect from having your character captured and brainwashed by a cult and then have your character's friends discover this and try to either put your character down or save her.

[Flickering Ember]

Hey Natalie, I think you already have your bases pretty much covered. In your story, the primal your character is attached to is man made and an experiment. There are a lot of possibilities and routes you could take here as it is very likely an experimental primal would differ quite a bit from the other primals. You could create your own tempering effects according to what would be the most fun for you and your friends. 

 

Additionally, perhaps she could break from the tempering because of this. This could cause the primal's creators to ask themselves what they did wrong and what discoveries they have gotten out of this experiment or what they could do better. This could be an easy route since experiments are often prone to failure or may not perfectly replicate what they are supposed to mimic.

 

I think the effects of tempering would create a change in your character even if she is already rather fanatic. Maybe it wouldn't be that noticeable to strangers. Or maybe strangers think she is very strange and pushy with her religion. Meanwhile, my view of tempering, even if your character was already a zealot, is that her friends and family would probably take immediate notice to something being very wrong as I suspect she would be even more zealous than normal and perhaps not in a way that people close to her would consider endearing.

[Kage]

Well it's more the reason *why* she is doing things. It's one thing for a person who be devoted to someone, it's another to not have a choice.

 

And there isn't a *point*, it happened, and is turning out to be a pretty interesting thing for my IC friends to deal with. I'm not sure there is ever a point to RP, except to create interesting stories and have fun.

 

That's it. I'm convinced, you want to drink Kage's tears of panic and anxiety. And my own.

 

I still think that because the "primal" isn't a true primal (as we know them), that the tempering can be undone. It's not needed like the Primals' Tempering are in their unsatiated wants and needs. We'll just have to see. Of course whether or not that is true remains to be seen but your friends need to make sure that the character is not exposed due to the populations' fears and concerns over the Primals and their Tempered.

[Roen]

Well, I will say this so far.

 

Tempered Natalie is NOT Natalie.  She is all sorts of subtly creepy in that "I am normal and HAPPY SEE" kind of a way.  Something definitely is wrong there.

[Kage]

Well, I will say this so far.

 

Tempered Natalie is NOT Natalie.  She is all sorts of subtly creepy in that "I am normal and HAPPY SEE" kind of a way.  Something definitely is wrong there.

It's almost very uncanny valley. @_@ It all goes quite fine until subtle creepy parts just make you freak. D:

 

D:<<<<

[111]

Just for the record, I made this thread to get more information about the effects of tempering in the lore, so I could have a basis for how to portray a unique tempering process my character went through.

 

Many people have given me a lot of good information which I feel is allowing me to portray it in an interesting way.

 

However some people seem to be attacking my decision to go down this route, which isn't helpful to anyone, and I think isn't very appropriate. I'm not asking any of you to go along with what I'm doing, I just wanted OOC help to flesh out the background of what my character is going through.

[C'kayah Polaali]

Well, I will say this so far.

 

Tempered Natalie is NOT Natalie.  She is all sorts of subtly creepy in that "I am normal and HAPPY SEE" kind of a way.  Something definitely is wrong there.

It's almost very uncanny valley. @_@ It all goes quite fine until subtle creepy parts just make you freak. D:

 

D:<<<<

The Stepford Nat...

[Dravus]

In fairness I don't think anyone in this thread has been spiteful or mean. What people need to remember is that if they choose to embrace an unusual theme or trait in role-play and then bring it to a public forum then there's naturally going to be a few raised eyebrows.

 

This is precisely why I encourage people to truly think these scenarios through and prepare themselves for both positive and negative feedback. So long as it remains constructive and within the confines of the forum rules then there shouldn't really be an issue. Furthermore some posters are just naturally blunt and direct when they post!

[111]

In fairness I don't think anyone in this thread has been spiteful or mean. What people need to remember is that if they choose to embrace an unusual theme or trait in role-play and then bring it to a public forum then there's naturally going to be a few raised eyebrows.

 

This is precisely why I encourage people to truly think these scenarios through and prepare themselves for both positive and negative feedback. So long as it remains constructive and within the confines of the forum rules then there shouldn't really be an issue. Furthermore some posters are just naturally blunt and direct when they post!

 

Fair enough, I guess I took it the wrong way, sorry all.

[Erik Mynhier]

Nat, me and mine sometimes get creative sometimes so good luck on this road. I was just chiming in to say you were the talk of the Quicksand this morning. Just thought you would be interested to know that.

[Entity]

Edit: On another note, at the end of the Amal beast tribe quests, several tempered people are shown to be allowed to live out their lives. So while the Scions do immediately kill tempered, that's not a universal punishment. In fact it might be a policy unique to the Scions themselves.

 

SPOILERS RAWR You know I haven't done them all yet T_T Really is that Loonh Gah you didn't say T_T

 

The band of mercenaries who took down Titan named the Company of Heroes tell you that they used the Kobold aetheryte to go in and defeat him. Involves the very long series of quests including the imposter, Brayflox, wine, and a feast. I'm pretty sure that they do not have the Echo. I'm still curious as to how a blind Lalafell beat Titan >_> <_<

 

Actually I think his blinding was a RESULT of him fighting Titan, he wasn't BORN Blind after all.

[Kage]

Actually I think his blinding was a RESULT of him fighting Titan, he wasn't BORN Blind after all.

Yes I found this out re-reading the quest dialogue and for sure when I read up where and what he was doing in 1.0. He's a PUG/MNK I wonder what he was blinded by :angel: