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Conjurers and Thaumaturgy


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Good evening! (Or afternoon! Or morning!)

 

I found myself musing on the subject and subsequently digging through the forums here, but have been unable to find anything concrete.  Is it possible, within the realm of the game's lore, for a Conjurer to to gain an understanding of the elements "used" by a Thaumaturge?  Fire, Ice, and Lightning are still forces of nature--albeit destructive ones--but I'm curious as to what Stillglade Fane and its teachings might have to say on the matter. 

 

Is it possible to learn from and harness those elements while ICly bypassing the teachings of the Thaumaturge guild and what thaumaturgy is?

 

While I don't plan on "mapping out" Reima's IC life in Eorzea (as I'd prefer to let the world and her experiences with others shape that), I as the player have Summoner as my favorite Final Fantasy class and would love to try it out (even if only OOCly) at some point.  And, with what Reima wants to learn about herself and the world, I can't say that the other DoM classes are out of the realm of possibility--I just want to make sure that no matter what happens in her "life", I can still be lore-friendly.

 

Thank you!

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Yeah, you knew I'd reply.  xD

 

Personally, I RP Liadan as being unable to control Fire, Ice, or Lightning, because those spells simply don't exist in the Conjurers' list.  They seem to be wholly focused on Earth, Air, and Water, and to ignore the others.

 

There's also the little fact that Thamaturge magic seems to be anathema (in some ways) to Conjury.  Thaumaturgy is generally extremely destructive, and kind of goes against the whole "calm in the middle of the storm" thing that Conjurers appear to strive to be.

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And reply swiftly you did!  xD  Thank you!

 

I was feeling as much based on all of the context clues being thrown around by the game itself, but goodness knows if there was something I wasn't aware of.

 

Must consume ALLLL the lore.  *twitches*

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Yeah, you knew I'd reply.  xD

 

Personally, I RP Liadan as being unable to control Fire, Ice, or Lightning, because those spells simply don't exist in the Conjurers' list.  They seem to be wholly focused on Earth, Air, and Water, and to ignore the others.

 

There's also the little fact that Thamaturge magic seems to be anathema (in some ways) to Conjury.  Thaumaturgy is generally extremely destructive, and kind of goes against the whole "calm in the middle of the storm" thing that Conjurers appear to strive to be.

 

Everytime there's a thread with Conjurer or White Mage in the title I try to tell her about it so she goes to answer. Liadan caught this one first though *Snap* Darn.

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Yeah, you knew I'd reply.  xD

 

Personally, I RP Liadan as being unable to control Fire, Ice, or Lightning, because those spells simply don't exist in the Conjurers' list.  They seem to be wholly focused on Earth, Air, and Water, and to ignore the others.

 

There's also the little fact that Thamaturge magic seems to be anathema (in some ways) to Conjury.  Thaumaturgy is generally extremely destructive, and kind of goes against the whole "calm in the middle of the storm" thing that Conjurers appear to strive to be.

 

Everytime there's a thread with Conjurer or White Mage in the title I try to tell her about it so she goes to answer. Liadan caught this one first though *Snap* Darn.

 

If that's the case I'm just going to have to start PMing Liadan directly with sad emoticons and photos of baby animals whenever I have conjurer conundrums.  xD

 

"Please halp..  ;__;"

 

kitten-16219-400x250.jpg

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xD

 

I was turning this around in my head for a bit (while eating steak...omg nom nom nom) and was thinking...

 

Earth negates Lightning, Water negates Fire, but does Air negate Ice? o_O

 

I feel like we need Captain Planet. :cactuar:

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Now that you've summoned up my 90s nostalgia (and made me hungry!), I'm sitting here trying to make Air vs Ice work.  Curses!

 

I'm wondering too, back to the lore standpoint, as to the conjurers' and hearers' views on arcanima and the harnessing of the Primals.  I know about the place and reception of both as far as the whole world goes, at least to a degree, but getting specific about it helps develop my character's own views and prepare for potential choices down the road. 

 

I mean, a person could well have personal or external reasons for delving into new lines of study, but now I'm curious about conflicts similar to those with thaumaturgy.  Especially since the other forms of magic don't involve drawing from the elementals.

 

So much thinking. *shakes fist at sky*

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xD

 

I was turning this around in my head for a bit (while eating steak...omg nom nom nom) and was thinking...

 

Earth negates Lightning, Water negates Fire, but does Air negate Ice? o_O

 

I feel like we need Captain Planet. :cactuar:

There used to be a book called "Essences and Permutations - A Treatise of the Six Elements".  In it were the the three conquests and the three submissions.

 

In short, Earth grounds Lightning, Water Erodes Earth, Lightning boils water for the three conquests.  The three submissions are 'Fire is Extinguised by Wind, Ice is melted by Fire, and Wind is obstructed by Ice.'

 

Not sure if the book still exists in 2.0, but it might be around Ul'dah or Limsa Lominsa for my best guesses.  Probably the Arcanist guild in Limsa, but wouldn't know the location in Ul'dah.

 

As for if one could learn both thaumaturgy and conjury, I would believe it to be possible, though I would expect either an older character or an exceptionally talented one to do that.  There are ways one could somehow use the elements of the other school of casting, like elementally attuned weaponry or maybe an alchemical method with shards/crystals/clusters, but that would be all the information I know.  It's mostly speculation or debatable on that end honestly.

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I have it in Astrid's backstory that she tried to practice thaumaturgy once but utterly failed at it... with the exception of ice magic. I figured that if conjurers are adept with water, why couldn't they freeze it as well? Also, if we're including mechanics in this... Blizzard II is a cross-class spell CNJ/WHM can use, so knowing that, I didn't think it was too much of a stretch. That's just my two cents.

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Good evening! (Or afternoon! Or morning!)

 

I found myself musing on the subject and subsequently digging through the forums here, but have been unable to find anything concrete.  Is it possible, within the realm of the game's lore, for a Conjurer to to gain an understanding of the elements "used" by a Thaumaturge?  Fire, Ice, and Lightning are still forces of nature--albeit destructive ones--but I'm curious as to what Stillglade Fane and its teachings might have to say on the matter. 

 

Is it possible to learn from and harness those elements while ICly bypassing the teachings of the Thaumaturge guild and what thaumaturgy is?

 

While I don't plan on "mapping out" Reima's IC life in Eorzea (as I'd prefer to let the world and her experiences with others shape that), I as the player have Summoner as my favorite Final Fantasy class and would love to try it out (even if only OOCly) at some point.  And, with what Reima wants to learn about herself and the world, I can't say that the other DoM classes are out of the realm of possibility--I just want to make sure that no matter what happens in her "life", I can still be lore-friendly.

 

Thank you!

 

There is nothing that says they cannot (other than the mechanics of the game not letting you cross class lightning spells anymore). They are just elements that Conjury does not focus on. In fact, the only real difference as far as lore for the different magic styles is source, approach, and philosophy.

 

Thaumaturgy draws on the caster's own inner aether to produce effects, while Conjury from the natural aether flowing around them. The MP cost of Conjury spells and such is technically the caster paying back the area around them from their own aether. There is a whole thing in the Conjurer quest line that talks about this stuff. Beyond that the two styles are just vastly different philosophically, what with them both being representations of the primary religions and religious practices of their home city-states.

 

This not to say that there are not some abilities and skills that would be exclusive to Thaumaturgy, Conjury, and Arcanistry. Conjurers have little need for the Astral Fire or Umbral Ice forms, from a lore stand point. Likewise, Conjurers would have not need for an ability like Convert, since they draw their power from what is around them rather than an inner reserve.

 

I hope some of this has been helpful. ^ ^

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Just a quick observation:

 

At the same time that the elements of conjure can negate the elements of thaumaturgy, if you switch the order around:

 

Air strengthens Fire

Water compounds on Ice. 

(And scientifically speaking) lightning comes from the Earth as an overcharge of static electricity. 

 

Just my little side note. :3

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Just a quick observation:

 

At the same time that the elements of conjure can negate the elements of thaumaturgy, if you switch the order around:

 

Air strengthens Fire

Water compounds on Ice. 

(And scientifically speaking) lightning comes from the Earth as an overcharge of static electricity. 

 

Just my little side note. :3

It doesn't work that way.

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Greetings!

 

Black Hat here with some mildly stormy brain-things! (It's 6:30am, what do you want from me?)

 

Galen, I play as a "sage" and I do this because of the way his progression and his story have come about. Primarily, for PvE, he runs about as a BLM slinging spells but in RP, he's not so fond of dropping PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWAH down on people's heads. It's just rude.

 

However, through RP, he's studied both Conjury and Thaumaturgy. Arcanimae is too much math for his liking (Alas, never an Archmage), BUT! It has caused me to consider this very question before and so I give you my gilded answer!

 

I believe one could have a fundamental understanding of the basic elementals through conjury with some training. One doesn't necessarily need to be a thaumaturge to have aetherical talent, so being "sensitive" would make sense. While the game touts the three DoM classes and four DoM jobs as stand alone (With the exception of Arcanists SCH and SMR), the lore roots aren't that different.

 

And for those wishing to branch out in RP between the two diametrically opposed classes, Galen has learned how to "shift" his aether from one pole to the other. While he doesn't lose his knowledge of all things aetheric in doing so, he loses access to the specific "signatures" of Thaumaturgy when his aether reserve is polarized toward Conjury and vice versa. Thus, I couldn't RP him casting Cure spells with one hand and slinging Flare with the other because that would be silly. Aether-shifting, like any other useful ability, takes time to master and usually takes what I consider a "turn" or 1 action to activate much like Thaumaturgy's Transpose.

 

Also note that it could be said that Arcanimae is the bridge between the two, as evidenced by the cross-class abilities available to us spellslingers. 

 

Hope that helps!

 

Cheers!

 

-Black Hat

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All very scholarly.. I would offer an alternative based on Chakra and I understand the Monk has some elemental sides?

 

These are the normal colours but we could switch in the FF colours in

  • Thought (Spirit)/Violet - Enlightenment/Spiritual/Wisdom
  • Light (Luminescence) /Indigo - Intuition/6th Sense
  • Ether/Blue - Creativity/Openness/Healing 
  • Air/Green - Love/Warmth/Forgiveness
  • Fire/Yellow - Willpower/Anger 
  • Water/Orange - Sexuality/Needs/Desire
  • Earth/Red - Survival/Root/Base

I do use this as the basis for my characters alternative view on things, and use of crystals to heal by balancing the body's flows etc..

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Well I don't see how it DOESNT work that way.

 

Time start a canpire, you blow air on a spark to create a flame.

When the temperature drops, waterfalls become ice and the more water that continues to freeze, the larger the ice becomes

And everyone knows lightning comes from the earth. 

 

Elements of nature can be put on a chart, but science cannot prove or disprove magic. The world changes. Theories change. I would hate to live in a world where everything is concrete and facts. I like things to be open to interpretation.

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for the purpose of the elements I present to you the elemental wheel:500x500http://ffxivinfo.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/ffxiv-elemental-wheel-key1.png[/img]

 

Well I don't see how it DOESNT work that way.

 

Time start a canpire, you blow air on a spark to create a flame.

When the temperature drops, waterfalls become ice and the more water that continues to freeze, the larger the ice becomes

And everyone knows lightning comes from the earth. 

 

Elements of nature can be put on a chart, but science cannot prove or disprove magic. The world changes. Theories change. I would hate to live in a world where everything is concrete and facts. I like things to be open to interpretation.

 

It doesn't work because of that.  *points up at the diagram*

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Well, when we're talking RP setting metaphysics, it works how the devs' lore says it works -- and the lore, as explained by the in-game book that's being referenced, indicates how those specific metaphysics operate in the setting (or, at least, how a well-respected mage whose writings influence the modern practice of magic believes they operate).

 

Characters are, of course, able to disagree with that, but ICly, that'd be like disagreeing with Newton on how gravity works. It's not likely to get a positive reaction. OOCly, all we can do is look at what lore is provided and say, "That's how it is." I don't particularly like the lore about Conjury and Succor, but it is the lore, and so I've got work with it.

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That was pretty rude, Boo. It's just a discussion there's no need to get snippy.

The point isn't to be rude.  I'm pointing out that evidence was shown beforehand that says it doesn't work.  You could possibly say that it may react the way you said it would with magitek, but when it comes to the magic in this game, it doesn't work that way.  I would assume that the aether works the same way in magitek as it does in magic, but anyone could agree or disagree since there is no lore to base off of it. In the way you stated it, yes, it would make sense. When it naturally occurs, yes, it will work that way.

 

You may not personally like it, but this has been studied through the lore.  There is little point in this particular part to be interpreted when it is a concrete rule.  Not everything needs to be set in stone, but aether, in my opinion, is a rule that absolutely -needs- to be concrete in order for a story in this setting to make sense.

 

Though I'm just repeating what Freelance Wizard stated at this point in all honesty.

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I do have to point out that the book this is coming from may be a sticky point. They have changed a lot of the lore for caster type stuff since 1.0. The book being referred to is from a time when Conjurers had all the elemental magic (and when elemental weaknesses were actually a thing mechanically). Back then, Thuamaturges didn't have elemental magic at all, they use Astral and Umbral spells. While we can still see vestiges of those days in the current game, we do have to remember that all of that got practically thrown out from a lore stand point. This happened in 1.0 when they shifted how magic worked for CONs and THMs. Long story short, that book may have been effectively retconned as lore. Possibly when they changed magic in 1.0, but most certainly when ARR started up.

 

Which element tops which is no longer a thing, and I am not sure there is a book around that says that it is now.

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I'm sorry for causing a debate, everyone.  ;__;

 

I've been reading over this also-relevant thread on the side, and I really appreciate all of the feedback and discussion so far.  I'm admittedly a huge lore-stickler, so being able to play a character while working with lore is really important to me, and I'm learning quite a bit from these posts and others on the boards.

 

:love:

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I'm sorry for causing a debate, everyone.  ;__;

 

I've been reading over this also-relevant thread on the side, and I really appreciate all of the feedback and discussion so far.  I'm admittedly a huge lore-stickler, so being able to play a character while working with lore is really important to me, and I'm learning quite a bit from these posts and others on the boards.

 

:love:

 

How dare you!

 

...no, seriously, if people don't post interesting threads, I get bored.  D:

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