Will RP shift to Ishgard?

[V'aleera]

No, the one Lolorito tried to cross off right before the Ascian with the golem showed up.

[Perth]

No, the one Lolorito tried to cross off right before the Ascian with the golem showed up.

 

Ohh! Jeeze, totally forgot about that one

[Havoc Snow]

snip~

 

Your post is unfortunately insanely long and difficult to respond to because you kinda just throw a lot of points out there, so I'll just try to break it all up and respond to it as best I can.

 

I think that you're ignoring some very important factors here and basing an conclusion off of some salty gate guard NPC. We don't let the doorman tell us how the movie is inside; we go and see it for ourselves! Nor do we allow a single person to dictate to us the representative attitude and/or culture of an entire people.

 

So for your first point, I'm not really sure what you're talking about here sadly. What gate guard are you referring to that you think I'm basing my opinion on? Are we talking about Ishgard? If so, then no... everything we know about them is that they are a hyper zealous nation who absolutely loathe outsiders as a whole (this is excluding the few individuals who will help you, or do like you) and have been all to happy to tell the rest of Eorzea to piss off with all their troubles because it didn't involve them.

 

Just because we as the de facto warrior of light do not experience the xenophobic contempt of the Gridanians does not in any way erase that part of their culture. Gridanians have routinely in the past been very unwelcoming and even booted out the aforementioned Ala Mhigan refugees. Their attitude has likely not changed one bit and I would go so far as to say that you, again as the de facto WoL do not experience that, but anyone and likely everyone would probably be met with suspicion if not passive-aggressive hostility. Much in the way that the Feudal Japanese might act towards a house guest that they didn't particularly like. Will you be polite to them? Yes because societal norms dictate that that is just how things are done. Will you talk mad crap about them after they leave? You betcha. I imagine that the Gridanians as described in lore and backed up by the screenshots in Ansemaru's Gridanian census are all about saving face and avoiding shame in public.

 

Now on to your second point, I would like to start by saying that the primary reason that the Ala Mhigo refugees were turned away likely had nothing to do with the demeanor of the Gridanians, but more to do with the fact that it was not THAT long ago that Ala Mhigo attempted to invade and conquer Gridania. Not only that, but Gridania was supposedly hit harder by the Calamity than any other citystate and has been forced to rely on the assistance of the other nations to keep them from buckling under their own weight, they more than anyone else could not support a population of refugees.

 

I would also like to point out that you don't begin the game as the Warrior of Light, you begin the game as a mere adventurer and outside of a few isolated incidents with the Wood Wailers getting all butt hurt over adventurer's most Gridanians have a friendly and welcoming demeanor so long as you respect their ways. As I pointed out in my previous response, there is at least one Ul'dahn merchant selling her wares in Gridania, I believe Buscarron was originally from Limsa Lominsa if I'm not mistaken. Really the only group they show any outright disdain for are the Poachers in South Shroud.

 

With respect to Ul'dah, I highly doubt anything will change there. The City of Sin which bases its culture almost entirely off of the concept of things being bought and sold (including people, though any would likely say that slavery is illegal but everyone knows that there are different kinds of 'slavery'), even their religion is based in it with the primary worship of Nald'Thal. Fun fact: When your culture shifts towards hyper-capitalism, it does so at the expense of widespread fundamental values. I.e. an Ul'dahn is unlikely to ever utter the phrase "Ask not what your country can do for you; but what you can do for your country". Rather it would be societally expected that your country pay you for any service rendered no matter how menial or patriotic. All things have a price in Ul'Dah. I'm sure there's even an NPC or two who will echo that but I can't be bothered to look it up right now. 

 

As far as the Ala Mhigans are concerned, the only way that their lot in life within Thanalan will improve is by conquering Ul'dah from within (unlikely) or by peacing out (more likely and practical assuming that they have the means to do so). Will Ul'Dah's chief money grubbers eventually be brought to task for their despicable behavior thus far? I hope so. But it won't change that the general opinion of Ul'Dah with respect to the Ala Mhigan refugees is one of base contempt and near-disgust. The more things change; the more they will stay the same.

 

All I can really say to this without spoilers is pay more attention to what is happening in the MSQ, and look forward to 2.55.

 

In conclusion you really haven't proven anything to mean, especially that Ishgardians are not a completely isolated nation who do not wish to be inclusive with the outside world, thus the original respond about the post being ironic still stands. Gridania may be a bit stubborn when it comes to outsiders, but the fact that they have an active Adventurer's Guild, airship traffic, and they pretty much host almost every holiday event now it seems shows they are still open to working with outsiders so long as they are respectful to the ways of Gridania and the Shroud.

 

As far as Ul'dah goes... well there really isn't any comparison, so not really sure why we need to bring them into this. What is happening between the Syndicate and the Refugees has nothing to do with them not being inclusive, that is just a strict caste system basically.

 

Ishgard is barely willing to help the Scions, and only then because of all the help you have provided them, they do not have an Adventurer's Guild (maybe this will change in 3.0?), they do not allow outsiders into the city properly, they barely tolerate outsiders in Coerthas. What about any of this makes you think that they are inclusive in any way?

[Khoure]

in regards to the above discussion, I always thought that Ishgard just had approximately the same problems as Gridania, only stronger? Like I always got a similar, although more zealous feel to Ishgardians as compared to Gridanians. I mean, Ishgard has that big religious thing but if you replace that with 'the elementals' you can see the parallels.

[Havoc Snow]

in regards to the above discussion, I always thought that Ishgard just had approximately the same problems as Gridania, only stronger? Like I always got a similar, although more zealous feel to Ishgardians as compared to Gridanians. I mean, Ishgard has that big religious thing but if you replace that with 'the elementals' you can see the parallels.

The big difference though is that Gridania doesn't shun the outside world. They willingly participated in the Eorzea Alliance before and after the Calamity, they took part in Project Archon, they actively enlist the aid of adventurer's through their resident adventurer's guild. Ishgard does none of these things, and the only reason they were EVER a part of the Eorzea Alliance was because everyone else convinced them that Ala Mhigo would come for them next after conquering Gridania as the next closest citystate.

[Khadan]

In the interest of keeping this from turning into a zebra posting war of who's opinion about $made up thing is right, I'll try to keep this as concise as possible.

 

1: there's no need to express exasperation at a lengthy reply; if you cannot counter said points then simply concede said points and move on to those that you can.

 

2: yes I am referring to the guard at the gates of judgment. Him and perhaps 3 or 4 other npcs are the only ones even remotely derisive to the WoL. All other Coerthan npcs are neutral or grateful for your help. Especially in the case of aurum vale and dzemael darkhold. Therefore by default the "everything we know" statement is fallacious from thebeginning because we don't know everything yet. In fact we know very little. This was addressed in my original post though, no sense in rehashing it here.

 

3: your point is that they aren't xenophobic because they are xenophobic? 

3.5: I linked an imgur album taken by an rpc member showing the myriad ways that Gridanians think and feel about others. You've failed to address that in favor of doubling down on your original statement of the subjective view as the WoL.

 

4: caste systems are almost by definition based around excluding others.

 

my original statement was never that Ishgard is inclusive. In fact I made several points as to why they are exclusive and how a theocratic people might view others as well as how those societies become accepting of other peoples. 

 

You don't know whether or not they have an adventurers guild; why wouldn't they? It would just be full of Ishgardian adventurers. Lastly it seems obvious to me that Aymeric is entertaining negotiations with the Eorzean Alliance to jockey for a better position or end rssult. That's simple negotiating strategy. Also the MSQ almost blatantly shoves in your face that there is third and perhaps even fourth party manipulation going on. The left hand may not know what the right is doing.

 

Doing this on my tablet while in bed so eff the formatting police; I do what I want.

[Khadan]

in regards to the above discussion, I always thought that Ishgard just had approximately the same problems as Gridania, only stronger? Like I always got a similar, although more zealous feel to Ishgardians as compared to Gridanians. I mean, Ishgard has that big religious thing but if you replace that with 'the elementals' you can see the parallels.

 

You've essentially nailed the crux of the matter. :thumbsup:

[V'aleera]

The big difference though is that Gridania doesn't shun the outside world. They willingly participated in the Eorzea Alliance before

Technically so did Ishgard. A reeeeeally long time ago.

[LiveVoltage]

Ul'dah is the most welcoming to immigrants so long as you can earn your keep. Refugees are disliked because they are perceived as those who failed to work hard.

 

The fact the Flame General is Ala Mhigan (as well as the Grand Flame Marshal being Ishgardian), we have numerous Ala Mhigan/Highlander soldiers in from Sultansworn to Brass Blade, and that there are two Ala Mhigan/Highlanders on the Syndicate (incl. Flame General) suggests that everyone is welcome in Ul'dah presuming you can work hard.

This is actually pretty accurate. As long as you have a marketable skill or your willing to become a soldier for the most part, most people will leave you alone.

 

Alot of people forget about Ul'dah is its kind of like the capitalist mindset of america. If you dont want to work or you dont have a marketable skill and you refuse to get a skill and expect handouts, people will piss all over you, not because your poor but because you dont want to get up and actually work.

[Perth]

3: your point is that they aren't xenophobic because they are xenophobic? 

3.5: I linked an imgur album taken by an rpc member showing the myriad ways that Gridanians think and feel about others. You've failed to address that in favor of doubling down on your original statement of the subjective view as the WoL.

 

I don't think Ashren was trying to say they weren't xenophobic, merely pointing out that Ala Mhigans were a bad example due to their terrible standing with one another brought upon then by their rocky relations in the past. Its pretty obvious they wouldn't like Ala Mhigans after that whole shebang blew up in Ala Mhigo's face. That example alone is quite a reasonable one, so its not the soundest example of xebophobia simply because its quite justified and rational.

 

This is all super off-topic though

[Khadan]

3: your point is that they aren't xenophobic because they are xenophobic? 

3.5: I linked an imgur album taken by an rpc member showing the myriad ways that Gridanians think and feel about others. You've failed to address that in favor of doubling down on your original statement of the subjective view as the WoL.

 

I don't think Ashren was trying to say they weren't xenophobic, merely pointing out that Ala Mhigans were a bad example due to their terrible standing with one another brought upon then by their rocky relations in the past. Its pretty obvious they wouldn't like Ala Mhigans after that whole shebang blew up in Ala Mhigo's face. That example alone is quite a reasonable one, so its not the soundest example of xebophobia simply because its quite justified and rational.

 

This is all super off-topic though

 

 

It is understandable completely to not want to invite a former enemy into your home even if they are in need and conquered from an outside power. I had a friend remind me that the majority of the distrust/xenophobia is because of the accrual of woodsin from entering the hedge. Wariness of outsiders leads to xenophobia which leads us to where we are now; don't want strangers messing up your home so therefore outsiders are glared at because they could potentially ruin everything.

 

 

As my buddy stated, there's zero proof that they're -not- outsider-unfriendly and the very fact that a lot of people get that impression about them in the first place disproves Ashren's initial points about Gridania. 

 

As I stated in my original post, though, we're talking about cultures, lots of history, and how cultures end up the way that they are and how they might be slowly shifted. =)

[Havoc Snow]

The big difference though is that Gridania doesn't shun the outside world. They willingly participated in the Eorzea Alliance before

Technically so did Ishgard. A reeeeeally long time ago.

That is a huge technicality. It has been stated that the extent of Ishgards part in the Eorzean Alliance is pretty much the extent of their part in current affairs. They told everyone to stay the hell out of Coerthas, and in return they would offer them meager supplies when they could. So essentially they were only ever part of the Eorzea Alliance in name alone. I believe at that point in time the only thing they really did was give Gridania Chocobos, which is why Bentbranch has their own stable.

[V'aleera]

That is a huge technicality.

That's the best kind.

[Khadan]

The big difference though is that Gridania doesn't shun the outside world. They willingly participated in the Eorzea Alliance before

Technically so did Ishgard. A reeeeeally long time ago.

That is a huge technicality. It has been stated that the extent of Ishgards part in the Eorzean Alliance is pretty much the extent of their part in current affairs. They told everyone to stay the hell out of Coerthas, and in return they would offer them meager supplies when they could. So essentially they were only ever part of the Eorzea Alliance in name alone. I believe at that point in time the only thing they really did was give Gridania Chocobos, which is why Bentbranch has their own stable.

 

I'd need a source on something like that before I could even contemplate believing it.

 

To my knowledge no such source exists thus we have absolutely no bearing on how large or small their involvement was in the Eorzean Alliance. What we do know is that the Ishgardians bred the finest chocobo mounts on the continent and that prior to the Calamity almost no female chocobos existed south of Ishgard because they wanted to monopolize the trade and did so pretty effectively. Fairly certain it's a Bentbranch NPC who explains that but anyway, even IF, and it's a big if, the Ishgardians only supplied chocobos to the rest of Eorzea? That's still a pretty large contribution. But since we don't know what they did and how much then it's really doing no one any favors to make assumptions with little-to-no backing.

[Havoc Snow]

The big difference though is that Gridania doesn't shun the outside world. They willingly participated in the Eorzea Alliance before

Technically so did Ishgard. A reeeeeally long time ago.

That is a huge technicality. It has been stated that the extent of Ishgards part in the Eorzean Alliance is pretty much the extent of their part in current affairs. They told everyone to stay the hell out of Coerthas, and in return they would offer them meager supplies when they could. So essentially they were only ever part of the Eorzea Alliance in name alone. I believe at that point in time the only thing they really did was give Gridania Chocobos, which is why Bentbranch has their own stable.

 

I'd need a source on something like that before I could even contemplate believing it.

 

To my knowledge no such source exists thus we have absolutely no bearing on how large or small their involvement was in the Eorzean Alliance. What we do know is that the Ishgardians bred the finest chocobo mounts on the continent and that prior to the Calamity almost no female chocobos existed south of Ishgard because they wanted to monopolize the trade and did so pretty effectively. Fairly certain it's a Bentbranch NPC who explains that but anyway, even IF, and it's a big if, the Ishgardians only supplied chocobos to the rest of Eorzea? That's still a pretty large contribution. But since we don't know what they did and how much then it's really doing no one any favors to make assumptions with little-to-no backing.

Edit: Okay so a friend of mine corrected me, they did actually send soldiers to reinforce the ranks of the Alliance during the Autumn War but their primary function in the war was providing supplies and chocobos (which at that point were non-existent outside of Ishgard, not because of a monopoly but because of an epidemic called the Chocobo Blight).

 

At this point however we have completely gone off track from the original point of this debate which was my joke about how Ishgardians are anything but inclusive. So I will just reiterate my point that while Gridania may be somewhat wary of outsiders, I'd say they are far from xenophobic. The numerous points in recent history where they are present and assisting other nations shows this. I do agree with you on the point about Ul'dah being a "good ol' boys club" or however you put it, however if you've been paying attention to the storyline at all you'll know this is likely to change very VERY soon. How much is up for debate, but we know that the socio-political climate in Ul'dah is shifting very rapidly.

 

So that brings up back to Ishgard. Their presence in historical events, even in recent events has been incredibly miniscule, and only now are they even bothering to extend an olive branch to outsiders because of the deeds of MC and because they need our help, and even then they are barely able to admit that.

 

With all that said, I'm going to step out of this thread to prevent it from being derailed any further.

[TheLastCandle]

I think that there will be an initial surge of interest in the area, with a number of new Ishgardian characters being created and Free Companies being formed to attempt to capitalize on said popularity, but after the honeymoon phase, it will taper off and return to the status quo with only those scant few possessing a vested, personal interest in distinctively Ishgardian roleplay remaining there. At the risk of sounding like an arse (I promise I'm not, though!) that's what I hope.

[ChewableMorphine]

It's gonna be the loldrg capital of Eorzea. Rumor has it that loldrgs choose their alpha male through whomever has the biggest stabstick, or, alternatively, the lowest magdef :^)

 

 

Expect the place to either become the new Mor Dhona or a place where RP goes to die, in which "m-muh Fury" RPers and Au Ra will flood the premises.

 

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