Tiergan

I tried to join the skype list and I don't think I ever got on there. <_<;a I'm INSANELY addicted to Tumblr, but I've not actually RPed on there other than writing little snippets of stories. Franz' suggestion sounds good though if you can shake yourself out of feeling intimidated by the forums a bit! If there are people like me, it's far easier to say that then actually do that, but that's a whole different beast and conversation that doesn't need to go here. I was just inquiring because some people may find it easier to try and break in with at least some OOC interactions, which are less intimidating then RPing/Preforming. But everyone is different, and there are different things and methods that work for different people. I'm not really sure what else could work if instant messaging, Tumblr, and forums aren't really an option. That sounds like almost all the possible avenues someone could really take. Though to be honest, it could just be I'm coming from a totally different perspective. I always found forums/Tumblr a lot less scary than things like skype because the conversations aren't one-on-one, there's plenty of room for OOC chatter, and they aren't in real time. All the other options I can think of just seem really intimidating by comparison because they often require an immediate response. What do you feel could potentially be more comfortable for people?

I tried to join the skype list and I don't think I ever got on there. <_<;a I'm INSANELY addicted to Tumblr, but I've not actually RPed on there other than writing little snippets of stories. I do know other folks who've RPed on there though! They end up creating a really long reblog chain of RP after a while. Franz' suggestion sounds good though if you can shake yourself out of feeling intimidated by the forums a bit!

Exactly! We have to do the same exact things as new people to find RP. It is easier because we do have contacts, but the basic activity is the same: go out looking for RP, try to interject ourselves into conversations, or events, and generally be active in either generating or searching for RP to engage in. The basic concepts are no different for an established RPer than they are for a new one, there is vanishingly little RP that just "falls into your lap". Really glad to hear you're getting a chance to RP with new people and point them toward useful lore Tiergan, that' so wonderful! I have to be 100% honest and say that it's entirely because one new person I became friends with meets other new people and then introduces me to those people, etc, etc, etc. :V So it was more that person being awesome than me being awesome.

How is that any different from what's already happening? We have a cluster of people anxious and wondering whether they're being sniped as "that asshole" - but none of them feel like they can say anything because names or logs can't be mentioned. At least if we rephrase things, people will get less distracted by whether or not they're on someone's shitlist and focus more on the actual issue at hand. I agree with this - especially the lore aspect. When I was RPing with a new person last night, having an IC conversation exposed several areas that they felt they needed to do more lore-digging on to figure out their character and it was easy for me to just throw up the exact wiki page they needed to sort things out because I'd already been where they are. Another new person who's just as unfamiliar with the lore might not have an easy time doing the same for them, so in a sense, older members RPing with newer ones provides a sort of pseudo-mentorship just by RPing together even if it's not an official one. That said -- I think what Ilwe'ran was trying to dispel the notion that older members have all the keys to the castle in terms of unlocking RP with the rest of the community. Especially since just being in the community for a while may not be a guarantee that they're in a much better place than the new guy/gal is if they just happen to be one of those shy, struggling-to-find-RP older members. Both old and new RPers should be hunting down RP with both old and new RPers.

I see your cute moth and raise you one adorable squeaky moth: [video=youtube]

eeee. ::Puts rodent in pocket and takes home::

Originally, this conversation was about how more established members could help out newer folks settle in, but Ilwe'ran's right in that not all veterans and not all newbies have the same experience. I know a lot of RPers who have been around since launch who still struggle with getting RP at times for various reasons (usually out of shyness, fear that they are bothering other people, or fear that their somehow roleplay isn't good enough). By contrast, I've also met and befriended some Rpers who are brand new to the community who seem to be swimming in RP. From that perspective, this conversation would probably work out better if we reframed it more as a "How to help Members of the Community who are Struggling to Get RP" angle instead of purely a newbie/oldbie dynamic.

... ::Bundles adorable popoto friend in a blanket to make a burrito and hugs:: You are so cute. ;A; Also, I tried something like this before - if we do launch a initiative like that again, I strongly vote we organize folks by timezone/schedule. When I first tried it, I was dumb and sometimes unknowingly matched people with incompatible schedules together and had to do some reassigning.

Thing is, he has to stay vague. It's against the rules to call people out directly. Not a bad rule, but explains why he's forced to be passive aggressive in this instance. and I agree after the discussion is over (Discussion is good! Keep up discussion!) Throw the useful stuff into a resource thread. I'm not advocating that he call people out. I understand why those rules are there and I definitely think they should be followed. I'm saying there is absolutely a way for him to say what he means without making a large cluster of people wonder if he's making passive-aggressive snipes at folks in the conversation itself. Just saying something along the lines of "I've encountered some more established members of the community ignoring newer ones and it's extremely disheartening for those of us trying to break into RP for the first time." is enough to get across his meaning without coming off passive-aggressive.

After some time, we should do a sweep of the thread, pluck out all the advice given towards oldbies and newbies alike, organize it, and stick it up where it's easier to read.

I really don't feel I understand your stance at all. You seem to contradict yourself in a few of the points you make. Forgive me because it's 6AM and I've a fever I could cook eggs on, so I'm not going to defend the capability of my thinking parts. However, I feel you have this huge chip on your shoulder about popularity and people who see a lot of RP. Are you not judging them based off of things like forum posts or have you spoken to every person who is 'popular' on some sort of personal level? Maybe you have specifics in mind, but the way I read your posts, it could apply to people you don't mean it to apply to. Frankly, I don't know if your words are taking a jab at me due to how vague this underlying problem you have is, but that's neither here nor there. I'd just be careful about the complaining about groups in such a vague manner cause people might not know who you are applying it to. Okay, this is slightly unrelated to the topic at hand, but I feel like I need to get this down on the table and out in the open because I get the feeling it's a massive source of tension in conversations like these: Graeham, I have to be honest in that every time a vague "popular group of people who are manipulative two-faced assholes" gets brought up, I pause and feel some level of anxiety over whether or not I or folks I know are getting lumped in there. I have to keep reminding myself that it's impossible (well, at least for me specifically) because you and I have never interacted outside of this website and I haven't really even been online enough for the past three months to really do much RP to begin with, but the anxiety is there nonetheless and I'm sure other people likely feel it too. Logically, I know you probably just mean a couple of specific jerks you've encountered, but because everything is worded so vaguely, it just comes off as "Most of these established/'popular' RPers consist of heinous dickwads who are nice and sweet on the surface, but are complete assholes in game that mistreat new folks." Toss in the fact that there is a reoccurring theme of "Popular/Veteran Members VS Newbie Members" (which I totally get because whenever you have a long established group and a new, shiny group, rifts sometimes do form that need to get bridged) and it just makes the entire conversation feel really tense and anxious. I want to have an earnest dialogue with you and other new folks. I've agreed with things you've said on these forums before and because you ARE one of the 'new guys' and are in the ideal position to tell the community what things are like - I definitely want to keep discussing things with you to figure out how we can make things better. BUT - I also have no idea if you're taking the time to make subtle, passive-aggressive jabs at various people in the thread or if you're literally just expressing frustration with how some folks outside of this conversation have acted because of how broad the paintstrokes are. [Edit: Tweaked to make it clearer who I was referring to. :V] [Edit 2: Just wanted to clarify one thing before it gets misunderstood: we ABSOLUTELY should talk about how established folks snubbing newbies is a problem. It's a negative thing that can really poison a community and if it's going on, it needs to stop. However, if we do talk about that, we need to be wording it in a way that doesn't immediately make 80% of the established community members squint at their computers going "Wait. Who's he talking about? Did I accidentally piss someone off recently? Is he talking about me? Have I even MET this person in game?" I don't know if this will be seen as policing tone, but it makes it really stressful to have these conversations if you have no idea whether the other person actually genuinely holding out a hand and trying to have an earnest dialogue with you about how to improve things or if they're making thinly veiled jabs at you for reasons you don't really understand.]

When it comes to the ultra-shy folks, I'm not sure if anything more can be done other than finding them a buddy to help shove them into RP (I like to think of it as an RP wingman/wingwoman :V) or just being as patient and welcoming as possible. That's a case where they really just need a good friend to act as the mentor/handholding figure for them to help them get over their anxieties, but at the same time -- no one is really obligated to take on that role for someone either, so it's a tough situation. They need a buddy who doesn't mind being that figure for them until they're more confident. Also, when it comes to those wikis - they don't really do much all on their own after you create them. I personally only look through wikis after someone's done something or written something that caught my eye and made me more curious (or if they look really cool :V). It helps to find a way to sort of subtly attach it to your RP, so sticking it in your search info definitely can help because if you do an RP action that catches someone's interest, they can peek at your search info and then get more insight into your character. I think this is why some folks have had success posting up writing on the forums as well -- people read their stories, get interested, and then poke at the wiki.

I always enjoy watching this vid.

Wat. Okay yes, see that up there is an excellent example of "you don't have to go along with everything just to stay IC."

On Leilani, I have her carry a linkpearl that's her family's linkshell. Whenever I need to step away from RP to run some RL errands or escape from bad RP, I just have her SUDDENLY get contacted by her family in an urgent manner. All my characters have something similar only with a different group tied to the linkshell.

I tell the person OOC in a polite way that I'm not comfortable with where the RP is going and abort mission. Like others have said, your OOC comfort is more important than staying true to your character. No one has any right to keep you in an uncomfortable RP position just to live out their skeevy fantasies.

Wow, this thread blew up while I was asleep. Anyhow, I want to speak on something I see as a potential recurring theme in this thread. [WARNING MASSIVE BLOCK OF TEXT AHEAD. I DON'T KNOW HOW TO SAY THINGS CONCISELY.] There seems to be a lot of fear about the community as a whole being expected or obligated to do all the work in bringing new people in. I can definitely understand this fear because it definitely does happen. In every MMO RP community I have ever been in there’s always this small faction of RPers (not even ‘new’ RPers. Just RPers in general) who come in with a bizaare sense of entitlement where if they make even the smallest amount of effort, they feel they should be rewarded by a rainfall of RP where people fall over themselves to interact with them. I will never forget a time I went to the Quicksand as Tiergan 100% determined to get random RP and I was faced with a person just like this. I had marched Tiergan to the nearest table, got him absolutely hammered and had him offer to buy everyone in the Quicksand a free round of drinks (very rare for his personality, but I wanted to provide an 'in' for anyone wanting to RP with him). Soon I had a pretty sizable cluster of folks all drinking booze with Tiergan and talking about stuff. A couple of folks were people who knew Tiergan already and were wondering why he was hammered. The rest were brand new people partaking in Tiergan’s generosity. It was insanely hard to follow a conversation of 6+ people while making sure I didn't miss what anyone was saying. At some point, I got a slightly passive-aggressive tell from another roleplayer about how unhappy they were at ignored by the group. I stopped, scrolled up, and found one single emote of that person doing something vague by the table. I immediately sent her an apology and invited her to come back into the Quicksand (she’d left at that point) for a second go as now I would be able to watch out for her. She accepted, RP walked into the Quicksand, then immediately RP walked out the other door of the Quicksand. This action literally took the span of maybe 2 or 3 seconds. I had no time to react. She then sent me an angry tell about how I didn’t draw her into the RP like I said I would. I sent her a reply explaining that she hadn’t given me enough time to type anything or for Tiergan to notice her. She then had her character re-enter the Quicksand, then stand at the bar on the OPPOSITE side of the tavern, and did nothing. No emotes, no hook. She gave me nothing and was waiting for me to do all the work. I had to break character, have Tiergan walk all the way across the bar to her, and have him drunkenly invite her over to the table to drink some of the free booze he was handing out. Only for her character to explain that she doesn’t. drink. alcohol. I tried to come up with more excuses for why drunk Tiergan would bring some total stranger he’d never met across to the table, and each time I met some form of resistance before I gave up and had him stagger back to the table. She sent me more unhappy tells, but at that point, I was miffed that I broke my own immersion trying to go out of my way to bring her in and ignored her. This is not the only time I’ve encountered something like this in an MMO, and I’m sure plenty of others have had the same experience which is why they’re extremely wary when things like mentor-systems and welcoming committees get brought up. People like the person I mentioned in my story are generally the ones who abuse the kindness of people trying to work to welcome new folks in and sour the vibe for everyone. I can't speak to the idea of whether or not new folks are actively being ignored or alienated by folks. (I like to think it's accidental and there are more factors at play). But I know it can definitely be a challenge breaking into RP if you're not innately outgoing as a person. Even more so if you are shy, have no FC, and are playing a shy/antisocial character. That was basically where I was at when I first started playing FFXIV, and I almost deleted Tiergan entirely to roll up a new super outgoing character because I had such a difficult time overcoming my own personal obstacles finding RP. It was extremely difficult and I was pretty bummed out that I couldn’t seem to find my groove. While I think I would have sorted out things eventually, I do feel like the process was streamlined for me by a couple of very kind folks who offered advice like creating a wiki profile, where some cool events were going down, what FCs I could try out, etc. Eventually, they also invited me into certain plots that made sense for both of our characters. They didn’t go out of their way to find a place for me in their stories - they only did it if it was realistic and natural for their character to want me there and for Tiergan to want to be there. If they’d done otherwise, it would have felt pretty awkward and forced. I think this is basically how things should go from a community-newbie-person standpoint. Established community members can be super welcoming, offer advice (like we have here in this thread!), and meet folks halfway into the community -- BUT they should not be expected to arrange RP for people. They shouldn't be doing anything or even feel forced to meet with anyone they feel wouldn't make sense in context with their own RP. A person who primarily does Yellow Adders combat RP in Gridania shouldn't have to twist and wrap their story into funny shapes just to find some unrealistic, obscure way to include a new person who does 100% of their RP as a Limsan aldgoat herder. This is why I kept going on and on about "Post in Connection Threads if you actually genuinely want to RP with that person. Post your availability/pick a day to meet up." -- because honestly? Finding a new person whose RP seems like they would work with yours and then providing them the means to meet up with you in game for RP to see if the two of you mesh well is literally the most work an already-established member of the community should really be expected to do if they have the freetime and are in the right place mentally for it. (i.e: not getting buggered by real life) They shouldn't be RPing with someone even if they're not really enjoying it or it isn't realistic in terms of their character. By posting in a 'Connection" thread and providing availability/meet-up day, they are opening the door and allowing someone to jam their foot in. Anything more than that is being super generous.

AT LAST! CHOCOBO AVENGER HAS HER TRUSTY SIDEKICK! They are now BFFs.

While I don't disagree that sometimes it's all about making the right kind of effort (I've had some awkward experiences that I'll just leave out for now :V) - I also agree that we shouldn't really be assuming that everyone who is having an issue isn't making that effort and leave it at that. Also, this is going to sound slightly derp, but he's also male miqo'te and we're basically a dime a dozen, which makes it even harder to get attention sometimes. Add on the fact that he seems to be shy and has a shy character and it can be triply hard.

THIS CHANGES MY ENTIRE UNDERSTANDING OF PLATE ARMOR. Thank you OP. ;_;

I'll also say that if you were trying to emote in a place like the Quicksand where there can sometimes be a lot of scrolling chat - it is SUPER easy for people to miss the emotes, which is why an OOC whisper of "((Heyoo, I'd like to RP with you and not sure if you missed my emote. Is this a bad time?))" can help a lot. Also, if they're in a group conversation of 4/5+ people, that's generally when they are probably scanning their chat logs for the names of the other people in the conversation and might have a hard time catching someone emoting at them. Toss in an active linkshell or FC chat and it can get even harder. I've personally emoted at folks a lot of times before only to discover they completely missed it. Like Aya said, an OOC whisper can help A LOT.

I have to admit that I'm a little frustrated. My main point in all of this has been if you're going to post in a newbie's Let's-RP Thread on the Making Connections Forum: 1) Post your timezone and availability so they can actually find you in-game or 2) Coordinate with them and pick a day so that both of you can actually meet up. However, a lot of the responses I've been seeing harp on about how it's the responsibility of the thread-posters to make the effort to reach out and how the onus is on them to actually do their part in hunting folks down for RP. I agree and I get this sentiment. I earnestly do. It IS their responsibility to meet you halfway, and as someone who has been some form of guild leadership in nearly every MMO I have ever played, no one hates spoonfeeding or handholding more than I do. Especially when someone feels entitled to it. However, if all anyone ever posts is "My name is Tiergan Vashir. Feel free to hit me up in game sometime!" and literally nothing else. It is crazy hard for these people to actually do their part in reaching out and finding folks in game when that's all the information you have on hand. Failing to reach out to someone doesn't necessarily mean laziness or someone not meeting you half way. It might mean they just can't find you period. Like I mentioned already, before real life decided to crush me and rob me of most of my freetime, I tried to start a plot that involved me hunting down 50+ people knowing ONLY their character names. Coming from a position where I definitely wanted to find all of these people and was constantly going through a list searching for every single person for literally a month or more and STILL not being able to find some people -- it is very, very hard. Sometimes even when I knew their schedules or timezones, it was still tricky. That experience was actually how I came to realise just how difficult it is for new people to actually make use of their Making Connections threads when most (but not all) of the responses basically amount to: "I'd love to RP with you! My character is Tiergan Vashir! If you see me in game, feel free to send me a tell!" At best, their option is just to PM you on these forums because it doesn't involve logging in at various times hoping that you just happen to have a similar timezone/schedule as they do. And that PM will inevitably probably involve them asking you when you're generally online and what timezone you're in anyway - so we might as well just either post it in their thread and put your money where your mouth is or send them a PM with the information. By providing that info, we're not suddenly doing all the work for the newbies. The new folks still have to take the information we provide and find us. We're just making it way easier for them. [[Edit: Cut and changed some of the post that I felt might have been a little too aggressive.]]

I don't think anyone has explicitly called out folks (because of how dickwady it would be), but I have seen new folks express sadness in the past that posting in the Making Connections forum doesn't always net meaningful results because as much as people might want to RP with new folks, its insanely easy to forget to keep an eye out for them when you have multiple real life responsibilities, various in game obligations, or just being human. On the flip side, it can take WEEKS for someone to find another person and stick them in your friend list if no timezone/days/times are posted up anywhere. I know this from experience doing something unrelated. That's kind of why I'm advocating that if you post in someone's thread saying you are down to RP with them, we should actually provide days/times you are free to show sincerity or even scheduling out some time to meet up and hang out. I feel like people would have more trust for the responses they get and have a better experience in that forum if we do so.

My only concern with that is that there are similar linkshells revolving around getting RPers together for RP and they often grow stagnant with time. There's no real way to 'enforce' anything and enforcing something also means someone is probably not having fun. People should interact together because they want to or because they really do just want to make new friends.