The mystery of Estinien (AMPLE STORY SPOILERS ENTER AT OWN RISK)

[Ryanti]

So this is my own theory, take it as you will because it's purely my personal opinion. :thumbsup:

 

 

I think the Dragoon being involved in Ishgard is because Ishgard has always been one of the main city states in the game, therefore having the job available to play despite the city-state not being accessible.

 

 

The water based expansion might happen still. Though I think the logical order of things would be to march towards Ala Mhigo.It would be three years after the launch of ARR by the time the next expansion comes out. That's a long time to me. I couldn't imagine that we wouldn't be moving onto the other two great continents at that point. Ala Mhigo at least.

 

Eorzea is the smallest great continent. It's by no means the majority of the planet's landmass. That belongs to Ilsabard and consequently, the Garleans. I always thought that first, we would head north, then east, traveling to larger and more 'world-center' locations with each expansion.

 

If I recall in patch 2.2, Yugiri, while agitated and speaking about Doma's fall, mentioned that Eorzea has no clue what's going on in the world right now, which was a huge thing to say IMO because an entire nation fell and the Garleans went to war with itself and we had no clue.

 

Said Civil War probably was the main focus of the civilized world outside of Eorzea, which is probably the majority of the civilized world given the landmass comparison. Most of the Garlean Legions are stationed in Ilsabard and Othard, where Doma was. If you combined those two landmasses together, that dwarfs Eorzea completely, and I assume there's a good bit of countries out there, and of course the enormous Empire.

 

I can compare it to Britain and France going to war in the 1700's, and us being like British Colonials fighting the British in America during the same time. Just like the British, the Garleans only sent a fraction of their army: Two Legions. I don't know how many Legions they exactly have, but they have waaaay more than two.

 

It took three city states to beat two Legions. Which is merely a fraction of their military and something that Ala Mhigo did all by themselves for a while before they surrendered. Hell, when Ala Mhigo attacked Gridania 100 years ago, it took Gridania, Ishgard, Ul'dah, and Limsa Lominsa combined to fight them off.

 

So imagine how their continents look like compared to ours?

 

I bring this up because I think Square Enix started us off with the smallest great continent, so that they could always move the game on to bigger and better things with each expansion. Bigger lands, more impressive landmarks, etc.

 

I can't see it not heading in that direction unless they send us to an underwater city next. Or an island nation, like Radz-at-Han. They could be deciding to go every single bit of land that isn't touched by the Garlean Empire.

 

In other words, I think the reason why they're highlighting the Dragoon is because of the coincidence that the Dragoon has always come from Ishgard, which happens to me where we're going now. Whether we go east, or west, or underwater next, it seems a much more solid decision to open up new land/areas rather than return to them.

[Havoc Snow]

I don't want to complete derail the thread, but I did want to just point out in response to Ryanti that despite Eorzea being the smallest of the three continents, there is still a lot of areas that we haven't touched yet and they could add as the focus of an expansion before we ever set foot outside of Eorzea. They could do an expansion that focused on Thanalan and Paglth'an, such as adding Southern Sagolii Desert as a new zone. Then we have Xelphatol and Gyr Abania, which could either come in the same expansion or separately. I still think it's likely they didn't scrap the water based expansion but instead just put it aside until after HW.

 

In short, it could be 3-4 years before we ever leave Eorzea, IF we ever leave Eorzea.

[Melkire]

So I unlocked Steps last night. Haven't run the Trial yet. I've had Dragoon unlocked, at 50, and its Job Quests finished since before 2.55. I took a moment to revisit those quests and the relevant dialogue. I think it's pretty obvious what happened.

 

Alberic spoke of dragonsblood coursing through a dragoon's body, resonating with the soul. "Fatal Seduction" is the title of one of the DRG quests, in which he discussed with the MC the inherent danger of such power: that one might fall under the thrall of a dragon. Estinien later confirms in the lead-up to Steps of Faith that the power/blood/whatever of Nidhogg does, in fact, run through his veins/arteries/what-have-you. He also mentions somewhat in passing about its "lingering influence," if I recall the exact words properly.

 

Estinien also pointed out - and I think he was telling the truth - that Alberic hid the theft of the Eye from Ishgard and the Holy See itself. He later confirms that he doesn't need to physically keep the Eye on him to benefit from his relation to it, which lines up well with the Eye resonating with and calling out to the MC, effectively acknowledging the MC as a second potential Azure Dragoon.

 

What happened, near as I can tell:

 

 

1. Alberic acknowledged as greatest in all Ishgard, Eye passes to him.

 

2. Twenty years prior to ARR, Nidhogg assaults Ishgard. Alberic holds him off, fights off the temptation and seduction of giving in to the dragon within him, and in doing so routs Nidhogg... but at the cost of Ferndale. Estinien is the only survivor.

 

3. Estinien raised to the arts of a dragoon and ultimately acknowledged by Ishgard as the greatest since Insert-Original-Dragoon-Who-Cut-Out-Nidhogg's-Eye-Here. The Eye acknowledges him.

 

4. Estinien senses, through the Eye, that Nidhogg is soon to reawaken. Gets it into his fool head that maybe he can lure Nidhogg away from Ishgard and double-suicide with the great beast, thereby enacting his revenge for Ferndale and at the same time saving countless lives.

 

5. Estinien enacts his plan, stealing the Eye away and running off. Alberic covers this up and takes off after him in a matter of "great secrecy". Ishgard doesn't even know. Alberic gets word out to Ywain through others re: his need for an exceptional lancer.

 

6. DRG Job Quests level 30 - 45 happen.

 

7. DRG Job Quest Level 50. Alberic and the MC confront Estinien at Steel Vigil. The MC sides with Alberic rather than with Estinien. Estinien, emotionally distraught that he has been bested by his fellow Azure Dragoon (there CAN be two, we've been over this, it just so happens that E & the MC are the first ever case of two in the same generation, despite E's arrogant egocentric assertion that "there can only be one"), succumbs to Nidhogg's influence and invokes the wyrm's name, beseeching him for power. MC and Alberic triumph regardless, and Estinien disappears in a flash of aether. Alberic mentions his hopes that Estinien is still out there somewhere. The Eye, it seems, is not recovered. It is not mentioned or shown to have been recovered, nor does Alberic mention it again after Estinien disappears.

 

8. SPECULATION TIME: Given his later mentions at Dragonhead of not seeking to challenge you again, and that Nidhogg's influence is now only "lingering within him," I'd say his defeat at the hands of MC resulted in his recovering his faculties, i.e. the emotional turmoil having subsided, he was once again his own man. For the anime-inclined, as much as I hate the comparison, see the early arcs of Naruto and how emotional distress would cause the Kyuubi's influence to leak through and send him into a demon-powered rage. Similar concept, different execution. Having returned to himself, Estinien is likely still hiding his theft of the Eye from Ishgard, or else he has returned it there (whether the Holy See is aware or not is beside the point). Since no one but Alberic, the MC, and Estinien himself knew of his treacherous plot, Isghard, Alphinaud, and the rest of the cast are none the wiser, so Estinien continues to walk about in everyone's good graces.

 

 

 

EDIT: Souns, nowhere have I seen any mention of Estinien being pronounced dead to the Holy See. Where's that come from? -sifts through this thread-

 

EDIT 2: Regarding the Vault, it's ridiculous to assume that the Azure Dragoon wouldn't have unimpeded access to the Eye, the very relic that supposedly empowers him far beyond any would-be peers. Especially if Estinien had been loyal up until his theft of it. The most loyal DID have access to the Vault, after all.

 

EDIT 3: The MC, as a potential Azure Dragon, has neither the Eye in his/her possession nor are they capable of stepping into the "official" post of A.D. The MC has been too busy doing Scion-WoL-Hydaelyn's Chosen things to sit around Ishgard as its greatest protector. Alberic's words don't mean they aren't an Azure Dragoon or are incapable of being such, it just means they can't be.

[Khadan]

MelkireSo I unlocked Steps last night. Haven't run the Trial yet. I've had Dragoon unlocked, at 50, and its Job Quests finished since before 2.55. I took a moment to revisit those quests and the relevant dialogue. I think it's pretty obvious what happened.

 

Alberic spoke of dragonsblood coursing through a dragoon's body, resonating with the soul. "Fatal Seduction" is the title of one of the DRG quests, in which he discussed with the MC the inherent danger of such power: that one might fall under the thrall of a dragon. Estinien later confirms in the lead-up to Steps of Faith that the power/blood/whatever of Nidhogg does, in fact, run through his veins/arteries/what-have-you. He also mentions somewhat in passing about its "lingering influence," if I recall the exact words properly.

 

Estinien also pointed out - and I think he was telling the truth - that Alberic hid the theft of the Eye from Ishgard and the Holy See itself. He later confirms that he doesn't need to physically keep the Eye on him to benefit from his relation to it, which lines up well with the Eye resonating with and calling out to the MC, effectively acknowledging the MC as a second potential Azure Dragoon.

 

What happened, near as I can tell:

 

 

1. Alberic acknowledged as greatest in all Ishgard, Eye passes to him.

 

2. Twenty years prior to ARR, Nidhogg assaults Ishgard. Alberic holds him off, fights off the temptation and seduction of giving in to the dragon within him, and in doing so routs Nidhogg... but at the cost of Ferndale. Estinien is the only survivor.

 

3. Estinien raised to the arts of a dragoon and ultimately acknowledged by Ishgard as the greatest since Insert-Original-Dragoon-Who-Cut-Out-Nidhogg's-Eye-Here. The Eye acknowledges him.

 

4. Estinien senses, through the Eye, that Nidhogg is soon to reawaken. Gets it into his fool head that maybe he can lure Nidhogg away from Ishgard and double-suicide with the great beast, thereby enacting his revenge for Ferndale and at the same time saving countless lives.

 

5. Estinien enacts his plan, stealing the Eye away and running off. Alberic covers this up and takes off after him in a matter of "great secrecy". Ishgard doesn't even know. Alberic gets word out to Ywain through others re: his need for an exceptional lancer.

 

6. DRG Job Quests level 30 - 45 happen.

 

7. DRG Job Quest Level 50. Alberic and the MC confront Estinien at Steel Vigil. The MC sides with Alberic rather than with Estinien. Estinien, emotionally distraught that he has been bested by his fellow Azure Dragoon (there CAN be two, we've been over this, it just so happens that E & the MC are the first ever case of two in the same generation, despite E's arrogant egocentric assertion that "there can only be one"), succumbs to Nidhogg's influence and invokes the wyrm's name, beseeching him for power. MC and Alberic triumph regardless, and Estinien disappears in a flash of aether. Alberic mentions his hopes that Estinien is still out there somewhere. The Eye, it seems, is not recovered. It is not mentioned or shown to have been recovered, nor does Alberic mention it again after Estinien disappears.

 

8. SPECULATION TIME: Given his later mentions at Dragonhead of not seeking to challenge you again, and that Nidhogg's influence is now only "lingering within him," I'd say his defeat at the hands of MC resulted in his recovering his faculties, i.e. the emotional turmoil having subsided, he was once again his own man. For the anime-inclined, as much as I hate the comparison, see the early arcs of Naruto and how emotional distress would cause the Kyuubi's influence to leak through and send him into a demon-powered rage. Similar concept, different execution. Having returned to himself, Estinien is likely still hiding his theft of the Eye from Ishgard, or else he has returned it there (whether the Holy See is aware or not is beside the point). Since no one but Alberic, the MC, and Estinien himself knew of his treacherous plot, Isghard, Alphinaud, and the rest of the cast are none the wiser, so Estinien continues to walk about in everyone's good graces.

 

 

 

EDIT: Souns, nowhere have I seen any mention of Estinien being pronounced dead to the Holy See. Where's that come from? -sifts through this thread-

 

EDIT 2: Regarding the Vault, it's ridiculous to assume that the Azure Dragoon wouldn't have unimpeded access to the Eye, the very relic that supposedly empowers him far beyond any would-be peers. Especially if Estinien had been loyal up until his theft of it. The most loyal DID have access to the Vault, after all.

 

EDIT 3: The MC, as a potential Azure Dragon, has neither the Eye in his/her possession nor are they capable of stepping into the "official" post of A.D. The MC has been too busy doing Scion-WoL-Hydaelyn's Chosen things to sit around Ishgard as its greatest protector. Alberic's words don't mean they aren't an Azure Dragoon or are incapable of being such, it just means they can't be.

 

 

 

 

Yes thank you for this. This more or less sums up how I felt about it and why I was not at all bothered by Estinien's return.

[Sounsyy]

EDIT: Souns, nowhere have I seen any mention of Estinien being pronounced dead to the Holy See. Where's that come from? -sifts through this thread-

 

With Estinien having left us' date=' the post of the Azure Dragoon has been vacated for the first time in the See's [u']recorded[/u] history. If I said that the current state of affairs did not put me ill at ease, I would be a liar. And yet, I am but a lone dragoon, and it is not my place to question. And so I place my trust in my superiors, and defend the See with my life.

 

This is the only quote that really bothers me about the situation and throws continuity out the window.

 

Could Estinien have survived after vanishing into aether? Sure, he might have returned to whatever aetheryte he was attuned to. It's what we do. Could it be possible he recovered his faculties? Clearly, that's what had to have happened. The Azure Dragoon lives in constant struggle with the power of the Eye, if they allow their emotions to go uncontrolled the influence becomes too great - which is what we see at the end of the 50 Quest.

 

But however much time has passed (and some time has past) between 2.0 and 2.55, Estinien has been MIA. What I don't like... is that neither Aymeric nor Estinien give any hint that such a time has passed.

 

 

Now, I have a theory of how Alberic even knows about the theft in the first place. I believe that Alberic was actually guarding the Eye when Estinien stole it from Ishgard. That would explain Estinien's taunt that Alberic would take his shame to the grave and why Alberic can't or doesn't want to tell anyone about the theft. He let Estinien go with it. Otherwise... if no one else in all Ishgard noticed the Eye was gone... how the hell would Alberic know about it?

 

Anyways, moving past that. In the last cutscene after Estinien calls upon Nidhogg, the Player Character steps between Alberic and Estinien... but it isn't the Player Character's model. It's the exact same model as Estinien. So spirit Estinien vs thrall Estinien. Spirit Estinien blasts Thrall Estinien with the spear and then the vision fades and the person standing in front of Alberic is the Player Character again. Perhaps symbolism for the good half of Estinien reclaiming control over his enthralled self?

 

I had hoped to go back to Alberic and his text would have changed to accommodate the 2.55 storyline, but it hasn't. Which is what bothers me. He still says Estinien is gone and Ishgard is without an Azure Dragoon for the first time in ever, at a time when they most desperately need an Azure Dragoon to lead their other legions of Dragoons. So has no one informed the former Azure Dragoon that his successor returned from MIA? Is Estinien not talking to Alberic after Alberic covered for his dumb ass? Has no one come to Alberic asking him to take up his mantle as Azure Dragoon once more until Estinien could recuperate or.. be found or whatever? Idk.

 

And it still doesn't answer how no one noticed that the Eye - the single most prized relic in all of Ishgard was gone for at least a few days, maybe a week, maybe moons depending on when Estinien actually returned to Ishgard. I mean... I'm pretty sure the Temple Guards take it in shifts, did the next guy on shift not notice it was gone?? It's like someone making off with the Crown Jewels. Even if they (being someone other than Alberic) had let Estinien walk off with the Eye... shouldn't someone have been like... well I think someone should inform the Archbishop or at least tack a memo to the door so the next guard on duty won't be worried that the thing he's guarding isn't actually there anymore.

 

It's just a huge continuity stretch that could've been very easily avoided by either A) not having Estinien recognize you or B) change Alberic's text to say something to the effect of "Oh Estinien returned to Ishgard and because of your efforts blah blah."

 

All that said, I have a feeling we've certainly not seen the last of Estinien and that we will find out more about what happened to him between when we shanked him and when he decided to return to Ishgard. So until then.

[Melkire]

I think we're just missing pieces of the puzzle, that's all.

 

Such as, "what if Alberic was the 24/7 guard of the Eye in the Vault?" That would, as you say, answer some questions. Enough missing puzzle pieces like that and you end up where we are now.

 

...lack of dialogue change for Alberic is most likely an oversight.

[Havoc Snow]

It's the exact same model as Estinien. So spirit Estinien vs thrall Estinien.

 

You actually don't take Estinien's form, as mentioned by Alberic you take on the form of Haldrath which emerges from your Dragoon Soul and bestows upon you the final piece (his own piece) of the Drachen Mail as well as the knowledge of the Dragonfire Dive.

 

Taken from the wiki

 

In the level 50 Dragoon quest "Into the Dragon's Maw," an image of Haldrath himself appears from the Adventurer's Soul of the Dragoon during the confrontation with Estinien. After banishing Nidhogg's aura from the Steel Vigil, the first Azure Dragoon left behind his original drachen mail for the Adventurer.

 

and from Alberic himself:

 

When the being of darkness closed upon us' date=' you appeared to me the spitting image of Haldrath the Dragonseye, just as he is depicted in the holy scriptures. I thought that mayhap the years had taken their toll on my mind, but behold─the Soul of the Dragoon shines as it never did in all the years I bore it. It would seem you have achieved that which was thought impossible: you have awakened to the ability that none but the first Azure Dragoon possessed. Truly, a momentous achievement. I can still scarce believe that you were able to summon the selfsame drachen mail worn by Haldrath! To think that it had been sealed within the soul crystal all this time...[/quote']

 

I think people might be looking way to hard into what is simply a common case of "no body, no death." We believe that Estinien is vaporized, but there is even a shred of possibility he might still be alive created by the quest dialogue, so it's not a stretch to believe that he was not destroyed but merely blown away by the blast from the Dragonfire Dive, or that perhaps with the last of his power he managed to Jump away in time and escape. I'm sure they will explain it in Heavensward given that he appears to be poised to be a main character involved in the upcoming story.

 

Edit: there is also a possibility no one seems to be considering, that being that Aymeric is the only person aware that Estinien is alive and is covering it up because of how desperately they need him.

[Seriphyn]

It'll all probably be resolved in 3.0 DRG quests honestly.

[Marisa]

 

 

and from Alberic himself:

 

When the being of darkness closed upon us, you appeared to me the spitting image of Haldrath the Dragonseye, just as he is depicted in the holy scriptures. I thought that mayhap the years had taken their toll on my mind, but behold─the Soul of the Dragoon shines as it never did in all the years I bore it. It would seem you have achieved that which was thought impossible: you have awakened to the ability that none but the first Azure Dragoon possessed. Truly, a momentous achievement. I can still scarce believe that you were able to summon the selfsame drachen mail worn by Haldrath! To think that it had been sealed within the soul crystal all this time...

 

 

When he says "just as he is depicted in the holy scriptures", I wonder...

 

Does that mean the Enchiridion has pictures? Of course, now that I'm thinking that out loud, it occurs to me that hand-written copies of the Christian Bible tend to be heavily illustrated, so I guess it would only make sense.