Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening:

[Khadan]

We've established Jump is possible thanks to CG. The trickier part (for me) is figuring out not how that becomes possible but when that becomes possible. I mean, I recently watched a highlander kick a pillar into pieces and fight a guy using only one hand. I'm not sure that gives highlanders everywhere cart blanche to start making doors in walls.

 

It's not possible to establish, either. Roleplayers will find what they feel works for them and run with it. The challenge with THAT is that things snarl pretty wildly when the group thinking hyper-deadly aerial combat is the norm meets the group that feels that's reserved for the truly elite.

 

Honestly, I look for any excuse to post this.

 

 

Replace "throw into the sun" with "murder a soft target with my rocket jump." Ascian? Sniped. Traitors? Sniped. Any mortal challenge whatsoever? Sniped. After all, those spears are used to kill dragons! What chance does anything smaller have?

 

Honestly, and I mean for this to come off as neutrally as possible and as someone who truly values things like continuity, solid explanations, and above all 'rules' and high standards in my RP, but I think you're fixating on a very, very, small portion of roleplayers. A subset that you, yourself, by your own admission wouldn't be playing with, anyway. I get it, we're in the same boat, even, as I'm likely not going too interested in the legions of Miqo'te Azure Dragoons who've been in Ishgard this whole time but worship a different god and are also a Nunh and don't help populate nor govern their tribe(s) that we'll likely see, soon.

 

Stop fixating on a .25% figure and look at the grander scheme of things. Ishgard is getting a much-needed expansion (here's hoping for Ala Mhigo next!), Ishgard's most fabled warriors are getting a bit of spotlight for doing the actual thing they are meant to be doing. They aren't invincible, they aren't godlike, and they certainly aren't a one-shot solution to every problem. Honestly if we're going by in game lore and MSQ's etc, the Monks have by far the greatest amount of Dragonball Syndrome in the game. 

 

Will some (a very small percentage) take the cinematic and apply it to their superman complex? Yeah of course they will. But those are the people who are ALREADY doing it and have done it with other things. They don't matter. You stated you want nothing to do with those people nor they with you. That's fair. So stop stressing over it and trying to convince people that it's a problem when it isn't. You just do you and let others sort themselves. People like you and I have bigger fish to fry, anyway =)

[Domri Blackblade]

What if it's just some form of extremely advanced aetherial manipulation, this jump? Either way, it's something that would be available to the 1% in my mind anyway. Maybe that's why I am so lax on the hows.

 

When in doubt, its magic to Domri. LOL

[Khadan]

What if it's just some form of extremely advanced aetherial manipulation, this jump? Either way, it's something that would be available to the 1% in my mind anyway. Maybe that's why I am so lax on the hows.

 

When in doubt, its magic to Domri. LOL

 

Well that depends on who the 1% are, too. Do you mean 1% of Ishgardians? Yeah that's a fair number, likely. Probably a lot less, really, as we don't see armies of Dragoons but small 'squads' and individuals. As an example, the amount of soldiers who fought in the American Revolutionary War never amounted to more than 3% of the colonists at any given time. 

 

Ishgard is a warrior nation with a warrior goddess that has been at war for over a thousand years (and still managed to help boot the Ala Mhigans out of the Shroud). That's a bit of an aside, I suppose.

 

REGARDLESS, -if- the standing military of Ishgard's force of Dragoons makes up 1% of its forces, which may be accurate, I'm not really sure on the numbers tbh, other than that they are rare and highly specialized, based on what we see and know already, 100% of Dragoons still have jumps and the ability to fight in an aerial fashion. So you aren't wrong but I don't think you're wholly right, either. 

 

I will say that the one ability I concede as being 'off limits' as per a discussion with Berrod the other day, would be Dragonfire Dive. That was something that only the Azure Dragoon could do, apparently. Still, Dragoons are meant to be powerful, they have to fight dragons in the air, after all. But just like I wouldn't want to tangle with a Dragoon when they have the aerial advantage, I wouldn't want to go toe-to-toe with a monk armed only with my fists, either.

[Domri Blackblade]

What if it's just some form of extremely advanced aetherial manipulation, this jump? Either way, it's something that would be available to the 1% in my mind anyway. Maybe that's why I am so lax on the hows.

 

When in doubt, its magic to Domri. LOL

 

Well that depends on who the 1% are, too. Do you mean 1% of Ishgardians? Yeah that's a fair number, likely. Probably a lot less, really, as we don't see armies of Dragoons but small 'squads' and individuals. As an example, the amount of soldiers who fought in the American Revolutionary War never amounted to more than 3% of the colonists at any given time. 

 

Ishgard is a warrior nation with a warrior goddess that has been at war for over a thousand years (and still managed to help boot the Ala Mhigans out of the Shroud). That's a bit of an aside, I suppose.

 

REGARDLESS, -if- the standing military of Ishgard's force of Dragoons makes up 1% of its forces, which may be accurate, I'm not really sure on the numbers tbh, other than that they are rare and highly specialized, based on what we see and know already, 100% of Dragoons still have jumps and the ability to fight in an aerial fashion. So you aren't wrong but I don't think you're wholly right, either. 

 

I will say that the one ability I concede as being 'off limits' as per a discussion with Berrod the other day, would be Dragonfire Dive. That was something that only the Azure Dragoon could do, apparently. Still, Dragoons are meant to be powerful, they have to fight dragons in the air, after all. But just like I wouldn't want to tangle with a Dragoon when they have the aerial advantage, I wouldn't want to go toe-to-toe with a monk armed only with my fists, either.

 

I mostly meant the 1% as more or less the most talented. In my own headcanon, becoming a dragoon is something that takes a lot of training, effort, and time. I can't get behind that it's something that can just be achieved and 'oh look I can leap now', if that makes any sense. I don't find anything off limits (except, yes Azure Dragoon abilities), but I feel like there needs to be a spectrum of reality on how long is spent getting from point A to point B in terms of skill.

 

And trust me, aerial combat may be great against giant things that fly, but could be disadvantageous against small, grounded targets. And I'd be pretty terrified of monks with heavy jamadhars as I would be terrified of a dude with a giant axe. There's an advantage and disadvantage to everything. I think everything is pretty balanced in the grand scheme of things. Just gotta think outside the box for some.

[111]

I was also under the impression the initial hits weren't dragoons but projectiles.

 

Also, I think the point of contention here is the difference between freedom of movement while falling and changing your destination at the peak of the jump. I don't think anyone would mind the latter, but when you become capable of flight with the former no one's going to find that "fair."

 

We've discussed at length here before about the veracity of people being okay with DRG being rockerlaunchersniperrifles. It basically went like this:

 

DRG: Sounds fine!

Everyone else: No, it doesn't!

 

I don't think RP has to be 'fair'.

 

It's not a competition.

[Sylastair]

What if it's just some form of extremely advanced aetherial manipulation, this jump? Either way, it's something that would be available to the 1% in my mind anyway. Maybe that's why I am so lax on the hows.

 

When in doubt, its magic to Domri. LOL

 

Well that depends on who the 1% are, too. Do you mean 1% of Ishgardians? Yeah that's a fair number, likely. Probably a lot less, really, as we don't see armies of Dragoons but small 'squads' and individuals. As an example, the amount of soldiers who fought in the American Revolutionary War never amounted to more than 3% of the colonists at any given time. 

 

Ishgard is a warrior nation with a warrior goddess that has been at war for over a thousand years (and still managed to help boot the Ala Mhigans out of the Shroud). That's a bit of an aside, I suppose.

 

REGARDLESS, -if- the standing military of Ishgard's force of Dragoons makes up 1% of its forces, which may be accurate, I'm not really sure on the numbers tbh, other than that they are rare and highly specialized, based on what we see and know already, 100% of Dragoons still have jumps and the ability to fight in an aerial fashion. So you aren't wrong but I don't think you're wholly right, either. 

 

I will say that the one ability I concede as being 'off limits' as per a discussion with Berrod the other day, would be Dragonfire Dive. That was something that only the Azure Dragoon could do, apparently. Still, Dragoons are meant to be powerful, they have to fight dragons in the air, after all. But just like I wouldn't want to tangle with a Dragoon when they have the aerial advantage, I wouldn't want to go toe-to-toe with a monk armed only with my fists, either.

 

I mostly meant the 1% as more or less the most talented. In my own headcanon, becoming a dragoon is something that takes a lot of training, effort, and time. I can't get behind that it's something that can just be achieved and 'oh look I can leap now', if that makes any sense. I don't find anything off limits (except, yes Azure Dragoon abilities), but I feel like there needs to be a spectrum of reality on how long is spent getting from point A to point B in terms of skill.

 

And trust me, aerial combat may be great against giant things that fly, but could be disadvantageous against small, grounded targets. And I'd be pretty terrified of monks with heavy jamadhars as I would be terrified of a dude with a giant axe. There's an advantage and disadvantage to everything. I think everything is pretty balanced in the grand scheme of things. Just gotta think outside the box for some.

 

Completely agree. Flynt attends the Grindstone and trains constantly with others and never uses jumps against people mainly because it just wouldn't work 9 times out of 10. While it is fast, and they come down like a lightning bolt, it still takes what? 1-2 seconds? That is a very long time in a fight, especially when you know EXACTLY where they are going to attack from (See above.../pun).

 

I also agree that there needs to be a spectrum, and maybe as Dragoon RPers this thread would be a good location to agree upon how much time and dedication we think it takes. As someone who RPs a Dragoon, I think this conversation is incredibly important if only because I've seen others "pick up" being a Dragoon and consider themselves on par with a character who dedicates nearly every moment of training towards that fighting style, and those who suffer the most are the good and interesting Dragoon RPers by invalidating what they work so hard towards. At the end of the day, if the only thing that defines your character is a gimmick your character probably isn't fun to RP or to be RPed with, and that applies to any character/class.

 

For me, if you RP a skilled Dragoon that is really all you have time to be good at. So much so your character suffers for it. Flynt's rigid training schedule has cost him money, put a toll on friendships and in some ways affects his social skills on occasion. But I don't do it so I can validate my use of Flynt's jumps in case I ever wanted to, I do it because I think it's interesting to tell the story of a PTSD afflicted pseudo war criminal who doesn't know how to do anything else but hunt monsters with pointy things.

[Branson Thorne]

I was also under the impression the initial hits weren't dragoons but projectiles.

 

Also, I think the point of contention here is the difference between freedom of movement while falling and changing your destination at the peak of the jump. I don't think anyone would mind the latter, but when you become capable of flight with the former no one's going to find that "fair."

 

We've discussed at length here before about the veracity of people being okay with DRG being rockerlaunchersniperrifles. It basically went like this:

 

DRG: Sounds fine!

Everyone else: No, it doesn't!

 

I don't think RP has to be 'fair'.

 

It's not a competition.

I don't get the it doesn't have to.be fair?

 

If that wasn't the case then we'd have this...../em draws his sword and thrust it into Natalie Mcbeef's neck, pinning her to the wall, watching her blood gush down and form a pool on the floor, with an evil laugh he walks out of the Quicksand."

 

Now I know this is called godmodding, because it is unfair.

[Erik Mynhier]

The alchemist quest shows you used minerals and ingredients to raise the dead....

 

Roes and Highlanders can with little training (lv15), asper lore can do a forward flip, coming atleast 4ft off the ground in heavy armor with no forward momentum, to shoot energy from their axe (Tomahawk).

 

There are giant monsters made of energy that becomes matter by their will.

 

We can ride unicorns...

 

Dudes strait up shoot fire from wood sticks.

 

Cat-people...

 

I think we left physics a while ago. And we all look a bit silly trying to apply/argue real physics to a game with the word "Fantasy" in the title.

[Val]

I was also under the impression the initial hits weren't dragoons but projectiles.

 

Also, I think the point of contention here is the difference between freedom of movement while falling and changing your destination at the peak of the jump. I don't think anyone would mind the latter, but when you become capable of flight with the former no one's going to find that "fair."

 

We've discussed at length here before about the veracity of people being okay with DRG being rockerlaunchersniperrifles. It basically went like this:

 

DRG: Sounds fine!

Everyone else: No, it doesn't!

 

I don't think RP has to be 'fair'.

 

It's not a competition.

 

I feel quite the opposite. No, it isn't a competition, but yes, it does have to be fair. If someone runs around RPing a Midlander Super Saiyan, I'm going to ignore them. If a dragoon leaps into the air and rockets down at supersonic speeds, only to instantaneously change direction on a dime? I'm going to ignore them. Not only is it not "fair," but it is entirely against any sort of laws of momentum and physics ever. Yes, we have to distill belief of certain things when playing a fantasy game, but the laws of motion still exist.

[Khadan]

What if it's just some form of extremely advanced aetherial manipulation, this jump? Either way, it's something that would be available to the 1% in my mind anyway. Maybe that's why I am so lax on the hows.

 

When in doubt, its magic to Domri. LOL

 

Well that depends on who the 1% are, too. Do you mean 1% of Ishgardians? Yeah that's a fair number, likely. Probably a lot less, really, as we don't see armies of Dragoons but small 'squads' and individuals. As an example, the amount of soldiers who fought in the American Revolutionary War never amounted to more than 3% of the colonists at any given time. 

 

Ishgard is a warrior nation with a warrior goddess that has been at war for over a thousand years (and still managed to help boot the Ala Mhigans out of the Shroud). That's a bit of an aside, I suppose.

 

REGARDLESS, -if- the standing military of Ishgard's force of Dragoons makes up 1% of its forces, which may be accurate, I'm not really sure on the numbers tbh, other than that they are rare and highly specialized, based on what we see and know already, 100% of Dragoons still have jumps and the ability to fight in an aerial fashion. So you aren't wrong but I don't think you're wholly right, either. 

 

I will say that the one ability I concede as being 'off limits' as per a discussion with Berrod the other day, would be Dragonfire Dive. That was something that only the Azure Dragoon could do, apparently. Still, Dragoons are meant to be powerful, they have to fight dragons in the air, after all. But just like I wouldn't want to tangle with a Dragoon when they have the aerial advantage, I wouldn't want to go toe-to-toe with a monk armed only with my fists, either.

 

I mostly meant the 1% as more or less the most talented. In my own headcanon, becoming a dragoon is something that takes a lot of training, effort, and time. I can't get behind that it's something that can just be achieved and 'oh look I can leap now', if that makes any sense. I don't find anything off limits (except, yes Azure Dragoon abilities), but I feel like there needs to be a spectrum of reality on how long is spent getting from point A to point B in terms of skill.

 

And trust me, aerial combat may be great against giant things that fly, but could be disadvantageous against small, grounded targets. And I'd be pretty terrified of monks with heavy jamadhars as I would be terrified of a dude with a giant axe. There's an advantage and disadvantage to everything. I think everything is pretty balanced in the grand scheme of things. Just gotta think outside the box for some.

 

Agreed! Though I think because of the whole point of "it takes time" keeps coming up there's something I should address for everyone's benefit: Soul stones. As we know the soul stone that the Warrior of Light receives isn't the only soul stone. Soul stones seem to be a pretty massive 'edge' when it comes to churning out competent fighters when and where we need them. There seems to be a fair amount of pomp and pseudo ceremony involved in the passing down of a soul stone, as well. Anyway, it seems that the soul stones certainly seem to cut the time needed to train by a significant margin.

 

Now I'm not saying that soul stones should be like candy distributed on Halloween during an Oprah viewing, but it might explain how we have Dragoons when we need them despite taking losses and being constantly at war. Just a cheap 5 dollar lunch for thought.

[V'aleera]

I don't think RP has to be 'fair'.

 

It's not a competition.

I don't get the it doesn't have to.be fair?

 

If that wasn't the case then we'd have this...../em draws his sword and thrust it into Natalie Mcbeef's neck, pinning her to the wall, watching her blood gush down and form a pool on the floor, with an evil laugh he walks out of the Quicksand."

 

Now I know this is called godmodding, because it is unfair.

I think what Eva is trying to get at is that not all characters have to be on even footing all the time.

 

My character is a dragoon and a knight that has been training intensively in combat since her mid-teens. In a combat situation she will outclass characters not designed for combat, or designed to be much humbler combatants.

 

At the same time, she will never be capable of navigating the merchant/criminal underworld on anything approaching the scale of Jameson Taeros or C'kayah, or possessing of the arcane knowledge of the various mage characters.

[Coatleque]

I think we left physics a while ago. And we all look a bit silly trying to apply/argue real physics to a game with the word "Fantasy" in the title.

 

There is a fine line between fantasy and absurdity. Only one of them makes for good role-play.

[Val]

I think we left physics a while ago. And we all look a bit silly trying to apply/argue real physics to a game with the word "Fantasy" in the title.

 

There is a fine line between fantasy and absurdity.  Only one of them makes for good role-play.

 

Pretty much what I stated above. Yeah, you can RP being able to fly around and be an awesome guy that can do backflips and cartwheels in plate armor.

 

...But should you? Ever?

[Verad]

I think we left physics a while ago. And we all look a bit silly trying to apply/argue real physics to a game with the word "Fantasy" in the title.

 

There is a fine line between fantasy and absurdity.  Only one of them makes for good role-play.

 

Toon, Paranoia, Amber Diceless, and the weirder parts of Exalted would disagree strenuously.

[ChewableMorphine]

...can change direction midair...

 

I would advise re-watching the Heavensward opening cinematic. Nowhere in there does this happen. What you're likely seeing is the sudden cut from one airborn dragoon hurling his polearm to another dragoon leaping in a certain direction only to be taken midair by a dragon's maw (if what you're looking at instead is the sudden "jerking" motion of the first dragoon hurling said polearm, note that aerodynamically speaking, a sudden change in profile can result in increased drag that consequently results in a loss of airspeed and a sudden drop in altitude).

 

Also the "instant liftoff" looks more like a leap to me. Yes, granted, more likely aetherically assisted than not, "anime-style" powered jumps, if you will.

 

Interesting side-note: the first major "bolt" that hits the dragon in the opening cinematic is actually a dragoon impacting the dragon's back. Close inspection of its subsequent flailing reveals a dragoon with his polearm embedded in the beast's spine.

 

Dragoons literally fight like Divekick characters. Straight lines often downward in a diagonal motion. They're the scum of fighting games. Or should I go as far to say the scum of fighting GAE BOLGS HYUCKHYUCKHYUCK I'LL BE HERE ALL WEEK

[Flashhelix]

I don't think RP has to be 'fair'.

 

It's not a competition.

 

This. There are two kinds of RP combat that most people use. The first is freeform, and the second is roll-based. If it's freeform, then you decide if your character is really susceptible to another's attacks, them doing attacks that might be considered wildly more powerful than your character's are up to you if they actually are effective or not, that is, unless the person tries to argue that their character's attacks are such that there's NO WAY yours could beat them. We call these people godmoders and tell them to eat shit accordingly.

 

Roll-based combat is just that. Left entirely up to the dice rolls. The details of the attacks themselves are just fluff. They can jump around and fly and throw fat cats all they like, but it's the rolls that decide everything, so yeah.

 

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you should show up to the Grindstone and start throwing fucking kamehamehas and sprouting angel wings and shit, but if dragoons, whose entire shtick have been the CHECK MY SICK FUCKIN JUMPS throughout the entire franchise are shown jumping high in a trailer, I think it's safe to say that they can jump like that in lore. What kind of vibe you'll give off if you just emote your DRG character jumping all around Ul'Dah, well, is on you.

 

And this is coming from somebody whose DRG character ICly hasn't pulled off a proper jump in the better part of a decade.

[Domri Blackblade]

Now I'm not saying that soul stones should be like candy distributed on Halloween during an Oprah viewing, but it might explain how we have Dragoons when we need them despite taking losses and being constantly at war. Just a cheap 5 dollar lunch for thought.

 

I disagree with this. I think an easier explanation could be as simple as children are forced to serve their city-state in some capacity. I mean that war has been going on for forever and it wouldn't surprise me if one of the main purposes of children in Ishgard is to train the future DRG/TK/AST population to contribute to the war.

 

The WoL soulstone might not be the only one, but part of me doubts they are just laying around in high stock like 'here you go kid'. And remember, the WoL still undergoes the first 30 levels as a lesser version of the job the stone gives.

 

It's still implied that they spend a lot of time training.

[ChewableMorphine]

[snip]

 

The WoL soulstone might not be the only one, but part of me doubts they are just laying around in high stock like 'here you go kid'. 

 

It's still implied that they spend a lot of time training.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the Ninja job starter, you flat out take the soulstone of a dead ninja. So that kind of makes me think that there maybe is a bunch of soulstones. Probably not like diplomas to a ROG, but certainly plentiful enough to support NPCs like Oboro(?) and Karasu.

 

Somebody call a lore hound on this, I kinda wanna know the deal with soulstones.

[Domri Blackblade]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the Ninja job starter, you flat out take the soulstone of a dead ninja. So that kind of makes me think that there maybe is a bunch of soulstones. Probably not like diplomas to a ROG, but certainly plentiful enough to support NPCs like Oboro(?) and Karasu.

 

Somebody call a lore hound on this, I kinda wanna know the deal with soulstones.

 

Fair point! PAGING SOUNSYY.

[Coatleque]

Toon, Paranoia, Amber Diceless, and the weirder parts of Exalted would disagree strenuously.

 

Disagreement does not automatically ascribe truth to the dissenter.

I can also list meaningless names to a third party and claim the argument invalid.

[ChewableMorphine]

Just to sorta build on my claim, yeah the whole ninja soulstone seems to be commonplace and perhaps rudimentary for the user. It's in the description of the NIN soulstone that it has inscriptions of epic tales and techniques on the gem itself. 

 

So on the topic of DRG, perhaps the soulstone is the key to their crazy-ass aetherpowerjumps? Like in an in-game standpoint, you can't do ninjutsus without a NINsoulstone (I'm gonna use NIN/WAR for the sake of them being the only class I maxed out past the soulstone), so maybe it's an actual lore mechanic that applies to it's user. A Warrior can't channel the Inner Beast without the soulstone (in which it describes the way of the Warrior, further implying the mastery of the Beast).

 

That's just my guess.

[Flashhelix]

Toon, Paranoia, Amber Diceless, and the weirder parts of Exalted would disagree strenuously.

 

Disagreement does not automatically ascribe truth to the dissenter.

I can also list meaningless names to a third party and claim the argument invalid.

 

they're hardly meaningless when they're counterexamples

[Verad]

Toon, Paranoia, Amber Diceless, and the weirder parts of Exalted would disagree strenuously.

 

Disagreement does not automatically ascribe truth to the dissenter.

I can also list meaningless names to a third party and claim the argument invalid.

 

Meta-commentary on the nature of how arguments work are likewise ineffective at the ascription of truth, but I take your point.

 

For those not in the know, the above are tabletop games in which the absurd is part and parcel and largely the point of the setting. All of them are regarded as classics or significant work in that hobby. 

 

Fantasy, absurdity - they're all good roleplay vehicles.

[Khadan]

I was also under the impression the initial hits weren't dragoons but projectiles.

 

Also, I think the point of contention here is the difference between freedom of movement while falling and changing your destination at the peak of the jump. I don't think anyone would mind the latter, but when you become capable of flight with the former no one's going to find that "fair."

 

We've discussed at length here before about the veracity of people being okay with DRG being rockerlaunchersniperrifles. It basically went like this:

 

DRG: Sounds fine!

Everyone else: No, it doesn't!

 

I don't think RP has to be 'fair'.

 

It's not a competition.

 

I feel quite the opposite. No, it isn't a competition, but yes, it does have to be fair. If someone runs around RPing a Midlander Super Saiyan, I'm going to ignore them. If a dragoon leaps into the air and rockets down at supersonic speeds, only to instantaneously change direction on a dime? I'm going to ignore them. Not only is it not "fair," but it is entirely against any sort of laws of momentum and physics ever. Yes, we have to distill belief of certain things when playing a fantasy game, but the laws of motion still exist.

 

The problem here is that neither you nor I are qualified to make judgements based on what "The laws of momentum" are and how they apply to pretendy fun times.

 

If you want to say that "I reserve the right to not pretendy fun times with people who pretendy fun times in a way I don't arbitrarily like" that's fine, too. But do own up to what all of this actually is rather than this ovewhelming need I see from people to simultaneously say that they don't want to "Police RP" in one hand and then "But I'm going to suggest we police RP" in the other. it's a bit nonsensical and I'm growing rather tired of seeing that contradiction in terms over and over.

 

Not to point any fingers at the people who do this, you know who you are after all, but it's a moot point. 

 

"Does RP need to be 'fair'?" Hmmm. I suppose?

 

I mean it's, again, rather arbitrary. What is fair? I mean war isn't fair. Life isn't fair. Someone somewhere will always have something you do not have just as you have things others do not have. That may be an aside to 'what is jealousy and why is it a thing' but really, I think it's relevant. This whole thread has been pretty regularly peppered with this weird notion that $persons have a $thing that other $persons don't particularly want them to have for personal reasons. This sort of 'narrative denial' is as tired as the whole talking out of both sides of our mouths arguments made when we want to police something without coming off like we're policing something.

 

If we're strictly talking "What are Dragoon abilities and how do I counter them as a non-Dragoon who fears that there are aerial Dragoon Drones flying over my house put up there by the NDA (National Dragoon Agency) and at any time they could leap down and spear me in my scrotum for simply uttering the word 'heresy'"? Well that may be a different discussion for a different thread. 

 

I don't think anyone in this thread or in RP would ever advocate that a "Dragoon" (being of sound mind and body at the peak of his skill and blahblahblah) is going to be able to come by and justify one-shotting your character by simply being airborne. Will ground bound targets or even airborne targets have much to fear from Dragoons? Yes, of course. Just like a Dragoon has much to fear from a Thaumaturge laying down flares and lightning everywhere or a competent archer who might Hawkeye their ass right out of the sky. We're so caught up with one instance and expression of 'power' that we fail to see the rest of the big picture. So let's please cease the fear mongering and realize that we (or our characters anyway) live in a powerful world filled with powerful people doing impossible things. Magic is prevalent and used in everyday life. Some nations have knights that leap through the sky and slay dragons while others having roving armored paladins who dispense justice and protect people and others still come from warrior lineages of fistfighters able to use chakra in ways that could probably cave in a small building. 

 

Does the enemy of a Dragoon have much to fear from said Dragoon? yes. But does any enemy of any $job have much to fear from said $job? Easily.

[Coatleque]

they're hardly meaningless when they're counterexamples

 

When the counterexample is an unknown to the second party, it is not a counterexample. The burden of proof is then laid back on the one giving said example.

 

In either case, the poster clarified himself and the discussion can now continue.